Celebrity author! Edward Burns, A KID FROM MARLBORO ROAD
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[0:38]Thanks for listening. Edward Burns is the author of a kid from Marlboro Road, a novel.
[0:47]Born in Woodside Queens and raised on Long Island, Ed Burns has made 14 feature films as a writer-director actor, and starred in many films, including Saving Private Ryan.
[0:57]Burns' first film The Brothers McMullen premiered in competition at the 1995 Sundance Film Festival, winning the grand jury prize.
[1:05]The film also won Best First Feature at the 1996 Independent Spirit Awards.
[1:10]In 2015, he published Independent Ed, an inside look at his two decades as a pioneer in independent filmmaking.
[1:17]A kid from Marlboro Road is his first novel based on his childhood memories and the Irish-American communities of the Bronx and Long Island.
[1:24]Ed lives in New York City with his wife and two children.
[1:27]Welcome, Ed. Thank you so much for coming. On mom's turn, I have time to read books to discuss your novel, a kid from Marlboro Road.
[1:34]Maybe I could say that again. A kid from Marlboro Road? You say it.
[1:38]Like Marlboro, like the cigarette, right?
[1:40]I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:43]Marlboro Road. Well, anyhow, thank you for inviting me on, having me on, reading the book, and I'm just excited to talk about it.
[1:50]It's been a labor of love, so I'm glad you liked it.
[1:52]No, I did. I really, really enjoyed it. It's such a sense of time and place as one summer.
[1:57]It's coming of age, summer before you turned 13. I have four kids myself.
[2:01]I've obviously been a kid. I feel all the emotions from the parents' side to the kids' side and all of it.
[2:08]It's like a beautiful slice of life.
[2:11]So tell listeners what it's about, really, aside from that rambling explanation and why write it.
[2:17]Okay, yeah, so two things. I mean, it's about a kid in summer of 1980.
[2:23]He's turning 13. His birthday is on the last day of summer.
[2:27]And, you know, that's an interesting time for any young person as you're sort of crossing that threshold into adolescence.
[2:36]But really, what he's dealing with is, you know, his parents appear to be on the verge of divorce.
[2:43]His mother is dealing with depression. And he also recognizes that he's a mama's boy.
[2:50]And he needs to break up with his mother this summer.
[2:53]And he needs to distance himself from her and declare some independence.
[2:58]And he's torn about that because obviously he loves her and he loves his time with everybody also recognizes he's getting a little too old for some of that stuff.
[3:06]It's like breaks my heart. My fourth kid is a boy and we are so close and he's now nine.
[3:11]And I'm like, no, I never wanted to break up with me.
[3:15]Yeah, no, I know it. I know it because, you know, I wrote this four years ago, the first draft of it during COVID.
[3:22]Okay.
[3:23]My son is 18 now, but he was 14 then. And we had probably just what we were sort of passing through that chapter in his life.
[3:32]You know, we also went through it with my daughter, who's 20. You know, so we'd gone through it with her.
[3:37]So a lot of those, you know, I'd experienced it as a parent.
[3:41]But then I can also remember what it was like for me as a as a young kid.
[3:45]I was very close to both of my parents. So I can remember how what a struggle that was to kind of declare your independence and step out.
[3:54]Yes, especially because, well, the boy in the book, his older brother, Tommy, has not seemed to have had any trouble breaking out.
[4:02]In fact, he's like goodbye, see later, you know, just like taking off. So it's harder when you don't have a role model of weight.
[4:09]We can still be close.
[4:11]And I think he sees, you know, his older brother, Tommy is, you know, a couple years older and has fully stepped into, you know, some of the bad choices that adolescence can make, right?
[4:23]He's, you know, he's drinking. He's smoking pot. He's not listening to the parents. He doesn't come home. He talks back.
[4:31]So I think this kid looks at that and how Tommy's behavior is upsetting, you know, his mother most specifically.
[4:39]And he doesn't want to be that kid, you know, I think this, he says, you know, I don't want to be mean because the way Tommy isn't the way that all teenagers are.
[4:47]Well, I love how at the end you bring up the word bittersweet because that is such a great word to describe this time of life.
[4:56]This whole, this whole book because it's growing up. It's, it's not just the characters too.
[5:01]It's also New York City and the neighborhood and how everything is changing and we're not in control of anything.
[5:07]And we like progress, but we don't like progress and you have all of those feelings wrapped up in many different ways. Were you feeling like that at the time or where, where was this, where did this come from?
[5:20]That's funny. I don't know if you have this experience as well when you're writing, but you know, sometimes you sit down and you think you're going to write one story.
[5:27]And it turns into something else. You know, when I was in film school, you know, there are a couple of seminal films that I saw back when I'm a, you know, again, a kid in his late teens.
[5:40]There are a lot of trifos for a hundred blows and to seek as the children are watching us are two of these like very important coming of age films where I thought, well, one day I'm going to make my coming of age film.
[5:52]You know, and certainly stand by me was a film that I feel weird as a kid and I thought, Oh, I want to make a movie like that about, you know, my group of friends growing up on my block.
[6:03]On Mulberry Road on Long Island. So during COVID, I had a television show that we were about to shoot called bridge and tunnel, which was set in the early 80s.
[6:14]So I had been living sort of in my creative space in the early 80s doing research listening to music.
[6:21]And they hit and they hit pause on the show and everything that we were hearing from, you know, the different unions. I'm in the directors guild screen actors guild.
[6:30]We were getting emails that nobody knew when we would be allowed to go back on set.
[6:35]So I had this idea that well, you know, when I sit down and ran a new screenplay at this point. So I was like, Oh, I'll finally tackle the coming of age story. I've been dying to write for 35 years.
[6:46]But knowing that I didn't know when we would be able to go into production.
[6:50]I always had this notion that I wanted to try a novel. So I was like, you know, let me sit down and write that novel.
[6:57]And then that's what I did. But the interesting thing that happened during COVID, my parents are stuck down in Florida. They can't come up to New York.
[7:06]My mom had had this operation. It wasn't well, not doing so good. So I would call her every day to just kind of cheer up.
[7:12]But at a certain point, I was like, I can't continually ask what you happen to know last night.
[7:18]So I was like, you know, she like the character in the book, love to talk about her past.
[7:24]So every day, I would just ask her a new question. You know, what do you remember about the day you graduated high school?
[7:30]You know, what do you remember when, you know, you guys moved to North Carolina when my dad went into the service.
[7:35]What do you remember about riding the third Avenue L up to the Bronx, all those kind of questions, never thinking that they would work themselves into the book.
[7:45]But when I would get off the phone with her and then start riding in the afternoon.
[7:49]This, this story that I thought was a coming of age story about a young boy and his group of friends turned into the novel we have today, which is this mother son story.
[7:59]And how this kid recognizes his mom is going through something, some form of, you know, depression.
[8:08]So it's interesting that's kind of, you know, so to answer your question about bittersweet and time passing and lamenting the past, never my intention.
[8:18]But as you write, you know, the beautiful part of writing is when these characters take you on the journey.
[8:24]You know, you're sometimes just the guardrails, right?
[8:27]And you get to go wrong along on this magical ride.
[8:31]That's what it was.
[8:32]It's amazing.
[8:33]And that's so nice.
[8:34]I mean, I basically, I don't even know if I called my parents every day.
[8:37]Now I feel terrible.
[8:40]You know, I didn't, but during COVID, I felt that.
[8:43]Yeah.
[8:44]No, you're, I mean, okay.
[8:45]Well, I mean, I call them enough.
[8:46]I mean, we're close.
[8:47]It doesn't matter.
[8:48]But that's, you say in the book many times, you know, maybe this is what older people like to do.
[8:53]They just like to tell the same stories.
[8:55]And even though you've heard them a million times or maybe the people you're telling them to have heard them and you've heard their story back, but it's okay.
[9:01]Like, maybe there's some comfort to that.
[9:03]And that's nice that you gave her that outlet.
[9:06]Yeah.
[9:07]And you know, it's funny.
[9:08]My wife will always say, oh boy.
[9:09]And he's telling another one of these stories.
[9:11]So I know I'm guilty.
[9:12]I'm the old guy who sits around telling these same stories over and over again.
[9:16]Yeah.
[9:17]But I think that's part of being a storyteller, right?
[9:19]You know, like part of it is, you know, your acuity of being able to hold the table.
[9:25]Tell a good yarn that's certainly a big part of like, you know, the Irish gift of the cab, if you will.
[9:32]So, so I know I'm guilty of it.
[9:34]My parents were guilty of it.
[9:35]And every character in this book is guilty of it.
[9:38]You talked about divorce a lot in the book because most kids are afraid their parents are going to get divorced right.
[9:46]That was like this big fear.
[9:47]And actually my parents did get divorced when I was 14.
[9:49]So my fear kind of came true.
[9:51]But anyway, but you talk a lot about the sort of societal and cultural beliefs and that divorce is not a thing.
[9:58]And in fact, you have a whole...
[10:00]seen with the dad about and he's like, don't even mention the word. Like, that is just not even a
[10:04]thing. And yet the fear doesn't go away. Can you talk a little bit about that and sort of those
[10:09]views? Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, I grew up in an Irish Catholic home in a, uh, went to,
[10:17]you know, Catholic schools for 10 years. Everybody was very Catholic. And even though I think
[10:23]the character at one point says, you know, all of these parents seem very unhappy because they're
[10:27]fighting. But I grew up, I never met anyone who was divorced. You know, as real working class
[10:32]town. So that like the character saying, like, we don't even talk about it. You know, I think mo,
[10:39]you know, I certainly, there were moments where, you know, my parents were not getting along and
[10:44]my brother and sister and I would, you know, have private conversations like, oh, what do you think's
[10:49]going to happen? Are they going to get divorced? Are they going to get separated? But we kind of
[10:53]of always knew they won't because we don't know anyone has ever done that. That's something we
[10:57]saw on television. So I knew that was one thing that, you know, again, to the point of, you know,
[11:03]the, the, the story, the writing, the process takes you on the journey. I didn't know how I was
[11:09]going to wrap that up because it's, you know, because it's not as much of so much from the book
[11:15]are sort of parts of my family's lore. You know, all those stories about my grandfather being a
[11:20]a sand hog and my mom taking the, you know, hitting all the bars on third Avenue with her dad
[11:25]and, you know, him disappearing for two weeks at a time. All of that happened. But it's fictionalized
[11:32]versions of it. So my parents didn't get divorced. But when I came to that moment at the end of the
[11:38]book, I really didn't know how I was going to handle it. And yeah, then again, it was just,
[11:44]I think, I think it's reflective of that time with a family like this.
[11:49]Yeah. And you've been married a long time. Right. That's I'm in 21 years coming up on the seventh.
[11:55]Wow. Happy anniversary. You're like, legal, right? Your marriage is going to be legal.
[12:01]Going to have to go to one of these bars. Anyway, so you include a bunch of your own family photos
[12:07]at the end. And I'm assuming this is you on your 13th birthday. As was the traditions? No,
[12:12]maybe not. Uh, it's a Photoshop image of me. Okay. But yeah, so that streets on was the streets
[12:19]outside my house on Long Island. And that's something we always did. We would climb up onto that.
[12:23]But we never took a picture of it because we had a little bit of a picture. Okay. So the line between
[12:31]fiction and memoir is obviously quite blurry in the best of cases. Talk about towing that line
[12:37]for this book. I had no interest at all in writing a memoir just because I, you know, quite
[12:44]don't have a great memory. I wouldn't be able to ever claim that that's actually what happened
[12:49]or what my mother said or what my father said. And I only write fiction, you know, I've written
[12:54]dozens of screenplays made 14 movies like that is what I think I excel at. And it's what I love.
[13:02]So I knew that I wanted to use some of my family's history to inspire me, but I had zero interest
[13:12]writing my story, you know what I mean? That's why, you know, the older brother in this character
[13:17]completely fictionalized, you know, my hero doesn't even have a name. Uh, we never say the family's
[13:23]last name or his first name. Uh, so I wanted anyone to kind of be able to step into this kid because
[13:29]I think regardless of how old you are, you know, kind of to your point earlier, you know, we all,
[13:35]you know, that that year as you're turning into a teenager and your relationship with your
[13:39]friends and your siblings and your parents, you know, everybody's going through some version of
[13:44]confusion, you know. So for that reason, zero interest in a memoir and what it's also like,
[13:51]I wanted to have the freedom to be able to have fun with the scene. You know, quite honestly,
[13:56]my life isn't as, you know, my childhood, I should say, wasn't nearly as interesting as this
[14:02]kids. Right. So you didn't see, you didn't win a poetry contest. I did win a poetry
[14:08]contest. Okay. I did and after, but I, and the trophy was bigger than all of my
[14:14]stories and after that said, you are not becoming a cop, you are becoming a writer.
[14:21]Yeah, that, some of these things seem awfully specific, but it's okay.
[14:25]There's a lot of that in there. There's a lot of that in there.
[14:28]Oh my gosh. And the role of literature itself, the, the boy, I don't know if this happened to you
[14:33]or not, whatever, but the old man in the sea and all the references to some of the classic books
[14:38]and trying to get into it. And of course, being a 12 year old boy, not really wanting to read
[14:42]all these older books and then realizing where there is actually value. Yeah. And again, that was,
[14:46]you know, a version of my journey as well. You know, I got very lucky, you know, but like,
[14:51]like I said, you know, a working class kid whose parents, like in the characters in the book,
[14:57]love to read. My mom loved the movies and loved classic films. So I got lucky in that we were
[15:03]always being sort of exposed to that. Even if we went sometimes kicking and screaming, you know,
[15:09]we were, we had to do a, you know, a summer reading program where we had to read 10 books a summer.
[15:15]So I know that's where I got my love of literature and my love of storytelling and absolutely
[15:20]inspired me to sort of say, well, one day, I want to kind of write my own version of one of these,
[15:26]these, you know, books that I got turned on to as a kid.
[15:29]At our local library in the summer, they always had these summer reading stickers and I,
[15:34]yeah, I was like, I've got to get the most stickers. I have to get more stickers like every week.
[15:39]I would get more and more books. Anyway, perfectionist.
[15:42]Unfortunately, with my attention spend these days, I, there's, I couldn't get through 10 books
[15:46]in a year, little or so. So you won the poetry contest. What happened between there,
[15:53]and you becoming an actual screenwriter, because that is a hard journey, right? That doesn't
[15:58]happen to everyone. How did that happen? You know, I, I went to school thinking funny enough
[16:05]that I was going initially a sports writer. I knew I wanted to write. It's the only thing I was
[16:11]really good at in school. And if you were an English major, you could become a film studies minor.
[16:16]Again, I like going to the movies as a kid, but I wasn't a kid who ever thought that
[16:23]the movie business was something that someone like me could ever have access to.
[16:28]You know, that, that thing out in Hollywood, I had no idea what it was. I never met someone in the
[16:32]business. But I became a film studies minor just quite honestly, because I was told,
[16:37]you watch old movies, you write a paper, you get an egg. I was like, why do you think he's that?
[16:41]Let's go do it. The first class I took was a film called Four American Directors or Four Hollywood
[16:47]Directors. And it was Wells Hitchcock, uh, Ford and Billy Wilder. The first film I saw in the class
[16:54]was Billy Wilder's The Apartment. I fell in love with the movie. The professor was talking about
[16:59]who Billy Wilder was. It was a writer, director. And I just became fascinated. And I was like,
[17:05]oh, wow, maybe that's maybe that's something I can try. So my dad, then I told him about it. He
[17:12]got me this book called Sidfield Secrets or basics to screenwriting. And I took a look at that.
[17:19]And a week later started to write my first screenplay. Then I realized, well, I want to make
[17:26]movies. I don't want to just write them. So I transferred to Hunter College up on 68th and Lex,
[17:31]because, you know, again, we had no money. I had to go to a city school. And I took every film
[17:36]production class they had and every screenwriting class they had. And you know, just got lucky in
[17:41]that I fell in love and I found something I'm still passionate about when I was, you know, 19,
[17:47]20 years old. So that was my journey in. And, you know, I wrote five or six screenplays from
[17:55]leaving school. I never graduated. But from leaving school to try and break into the business.
[18:00]And then eventually I said, well, I guess no one wants to buy one of my scripts. I'm going to have
[18:05]to go make my first film. So I raised $25,000 and made my first film, which was called The Brothers
[18:12]that went to Sundance. And then, you know, the rest is I got very lucky and I got a career.
[18:18]Oh, my gosh. That's amazing. Well, that's it's inspiring and wonderful. It was so cool. So cool.
[18:25]I mean, it was a version of the American dream. It really was. And it's funny. And I think back to
[18:31]those early classes that I took the film appreciation classes. And that's where I saw the 400
[18:35]blows, which, you know, it is the movie where I was like, oh, God, like a movie like that. So now
[18:42]I've written, and I never thought I would write the novel version of the story. So who knows,
[18:47]maybe one day I'll adapt this into a screenplay and see if we can get it made.
[18:51]How many screenplays do you think you've written over the years?
[18:54]So I've made 14. I've written easily 40. Wow. That is a case of, you know, like it is,
[19:00]it's hard to sit down and write a screenplay. Not all of them are great. You know, I've made,
[19:05]I've had some bad screenplays that actually got made.
[19:11]I've also have some what I think are, you know, the best scripts I can possibly write
[19:17]that we haven't been able to get finance because they're bigger and period and more expensive.
[19:21]So I've always been somebody who like, I love to write. I write every day. So when I hit the wall
[19:27]on one project, I just sit down and I start writing the next, which is, again, how the novel
[19:32]came to be because I couldn't write a screenplay at that time because I didn't know when we
[19:36]would be able to shoot again. So I was like, well, I have to write. I have to go to my, you know,
[19:40]my special place that I like to disappear to. So I'm already started on now. The, so I see
[19:47]this is a trilogy. Oh, the second book is called the Marlboro Road Gang, which will be kind of like
[19:52]the stand by me, the story that I that I got distracted from. Okay. Writing this one. So that's the
[19:58]next book. And I.
[20:00]I don't know what the third will be yet.
[20:02]How long before high school?
[20:05]Years later, exactly.
[20:06]Yeah, exactly.
[20:07]Yeah, right before high school.
[20:09]And that's an interesting chapter in your life, too,
[20:11]because I went to an old boy who's Catholic high school.
[20:14]My friends went to the public school.
[20:16]Some of the other guys went to a different Catholic school.
[20:18]So our tight-knit group of friends broke up
[20:23]at another breakup that I'm interested in exploring.
[20:27]It's so funny.
[20:27]Today, I literally went to the middle school orientation
[20:30]from my younger daughter.
[20:32]And they asked everybody.
[20:33]They're like, think back about your own middle school days
[20:36]and talk to the person next to you, which is so annoying.
[20:38]Talk to the person next to you about something.
[20:40]And I was literally like, well, you know,
[20:42]midway through, I kind of switched my friend group,
[20:44]which was really hard, but that was always
[20:45]happening in middle school.
[20:46]And that is so hard as you figure out who you are.
[20:49]Yeah, yeah, there it is.
[20:51]Those are tricky years, right?
[20:52]I mean, just ask for why everybody,
[20:54]because all of your friends are going through the same tricky stuff.
[20:56]You know, you don't have a sane person to talk with.
[21:00]Everybody's a little nuts.
[21:02]Oh my gosh.
[21:03]So when you're writing screenplays or novels,
[21:06]what is your writing schedule?
[21:08]Like do you set hours and what type of environment do you like?
[21:11]Like what does that look like for you?
[21:13]I try to.
[21:14]I try to get down to sit at the computer by about 10.30.
[21:19]So again, like I can get up and I don't want to take the kids
[21:22]to school, but that was always a big part of the process.
[21:25]Do a little workout, come to my office at 10.30,
[21:28]and then try to go to 1.30 without a distraction.
[21:33]And if I can get that done, then the rest of the day is gravy.
[21:36]You know, I can have lunch, I can have a meeting,
[21:38]I'm really in a good groove.
[21:40]Then maybe I'll pick it back up at 3.30, 4 o'clock,
[21:43]and sometimes I can power through till seven.
[21:46]Sometimes it's 3.30, I pick it back up,
[21:47]and I'm just exhausted.
[21:49]I have nothing, and I know I'll start the next day.
[21:52]And was it as easy or harder writing in this style versus screenwriting?
[21:58]The reason I'm writing the second book
[22:00]is because I loved this style so much more than writing screenplays.
[22:05]Because, you know, from my, you know, out of necessity,
[22:09]I always have to write with a budget and schedule in mind
[22:13]because I make independent films.
[22:14]So there's a lot of times they'll be a scene or a sequence.
[22:19]I want to write, but I'm wearing my producer's cap as well,
[22:22]and I realize there's no way I can afford to shoot that scene
[22:26]on the budgets that I typically get.
[22:29]So I have to reimagine what that scene might be.
[22:32]In the book, you know, I was able to, you know,
[22:35]book takes place in the summer in 80,
[22:37]when I'm able to flash back to the 1930s,
[22:41]to the 1880s, you know, all things
[22:43]that I would never be able to do in a screenplay
[22:45]because you can imagine, you know,
[22:46]the scene where me and my mom take the train
[22:49]into Manhattan and we walk down 5th Avenue
[22:51]and we start with the central park to shoot that scene
[22:56]in 1980, you know, that would cost more
[23:00]than my last three films combined.
[23:03]So for that reason, it was sort of liberating in a way.
[23:07]And also, you know, I love writing dialogue,
[23:09]but not having to tell your story through dialogue
[23:15]was also liberating in a way.
[23:17]So yeah, I'm really enjoying it.
[23:18]I would love, if this book works,
[23:21]I would love to be able to, you know,
[23:24]have two careers, if you will,
[23:26]because, you know, as you know,
[23:27]like sitting down and writing a novel,
[23:29]it was just a special experience.
[23:31]Well, that's great.
[23:33]My gosh, I'm not every novelist finds it that freeing.
[23:36]I mean, but I see where you're coming from.
[23:40]I've never thought about like the cost of what I'm writing.
[23:43]Like that would never in a million years.
[23:45]Yeah, that's interesting.
[23:47]Oh my gosh.
[23:48]So, you know, we just finished a film
[23:51]called Miller's and Marriage,
[23:52]which is a look at three couples in their 50s.
[23:56]They're siblings, two sisters and a brother.
[23:59]And they're all at, you know, I'm 56.
[24:01]So it's like, you know, our peer and friend group
[24:05]or all that place where it's like we're empty nesters,
[24:08]one's kind of reexamining, well, what did you get to work
[24:12]and I had to stay home and raise the kid?
[24:14]So I didn't get made partner at by 55.
[24:17]Guess what, you know, I'm making partner.
[24:18]And it was a time to re-explore a new career.
[24:21]So, you know, it's a film that looks at that,
[24:23]but there were a number of moments where like,
[24:26]you know, I had a scene that was gonna take place
[24:28]at a big nice restaurant.
[24:29]It's two people talking, but I kind of wanted to show
[24:32]that they're, you know, an affluent couple
[24:34]and this is where they would eat.
[24:35]And, you know, we priced it out and it was like,
[24:37]well, just to bring in 150 plus extras
[24:41]and dress them and hair and makeup would kill the budget.
[24:44]So instead, that's them eating at home
[24:47]with their own kitchen table.
[24:48]So there are those little choices as an indie filmmaker
[24:52]you have to make with the novel, obviously.
[24:55]I can do whatever I want it.
[24:57]See, I'm surprised because I would think
[24:59]that you could do sort of whatever.
[25:00]Like, you've been doing this a long time
[25:02]and you've had success, but it's, you know,
[25:05]the movie business is in a tricky spot right now.
[25:08]You know, the theatrical business is in tough shape.
[25:11]People don't go to the movies the way we used to.
[25:14]You know, there's still, there's a lot of opportunities
[25:16]via the streamers, but it's, you know,
[25:18]it's a very competitive business.
[25:20]And the movies that I make about, you know,
[25:23]people sitting in kitchens talking about their marriages
[25:26]don't necessarily scream box off this hit.
[25:29]You know, so.
[25:30]I love those kind of movies.
[25:31]Those are my kind of movies.
[25:33]But you have to, you know, you're not gonna get
[25:35]the huge budgets to make those.
[25:38]Which is fine.
[25:38]I'm like, I'm not compliant.
[25:39]I love very blessed to have a great career.
[25:42]I love that I get to do what I get to go.
[25:44]So what advice would you have for aspiring authors
[25:47]after getting through your first novel?
[25:50]And also all the writing advice from the various forms.
[25:54]You know, like, I mean, one is, and I guess,
[25:58]you're like, you have to just sit down and do the work, right?
[26:00]Like, you have to plow through on the days
[26:03]where you don't feel inspired.
[26:04]And, you know, the first draft of my book
[26:07]was over 450 pages.
[26:10]You know, I guess, wow.
[26:13]So my editor, I mean, Dan Simon,
[26:17]was really tough on me.
[26:19]And, you know, I'm new to this.
[26:21]So I listened to him and thank God I did
[26:24]because he really, you know, he helped me prune that tree.
[26:29]You know, I didn't say much, much better book, thanks to him.
[26:33]So I think that's one of the things is like, you know,
[26:36]if you can find someone that you trust
[26:38]and who's opinion you trust and has more experience
[26:40]than you, that can be really helpful.
[26:42]So I would say those are the two things.
[26:44]Find someone you can trust who can kind of help you
[26:49]edit the piece because, you know,
[26:50]novels can be unwieldy, right?
[26:52]You know, you know, with a screenplay, you know,
[26:54]you know, you know, if your screenplay is longer
[26:56]than 120 pages, I mean, it's gonna be over two hours.
[27:00]And you kind of know, okay, that's tough
[27:03]for that film to work, right?
[27:06]You know, we've all seen that movie.
[27:07]I would've been a great film if it was just a half hour shorter.
[27:09]So I'd say just, and also just, I don't know,
[27:12]sitting down and doing the work
[27:15]and, you know, if you're lucky, you kind of love to work.
[27:17]Yes.
[27:18]I don't know.
[27:19]What would your advice get?
[27:20]I'm kind of curious too.
[27:21]Oh my gosh.
[27:24]I think you have to, I mean, to your point
[27:27]about loving the work, like I think you have to have fun.
[27:29]Like you have to have fun when you're writing
[27:31]because people can tell, you know,
[27:33]when you're, when you don't bring in your enthusiasm
[27:36]and you're just trying to like do it
[27:37]to get the word count or something,
[27:39]it's reflected in the stuff.
[27:41]I mean, nobody's asking any of us to be writers.
[27:44]Do you know what I mean?
[27:45]Like nobody's like, you need to write another novel.
[27:47]Like nobody needs another novel from anybody.
[27:51]So if you're not getting anything out of it,
[27:53]like why bother?
[27:55]I know one thing I've, you know,
[27:57]because I'll teach sometimes, I'll teach,
[27:59]I'll speak at film school sometimes.
[28:01]And one of the things that I think
[28:05]trips up a lot of, you know, first time writers
[28:08]is, you know, the need to be perfect.
[28:12]Like to write school plays a lot of times
[28:14]is about the dialogue, right?
[28:15]And you think you have to write that perfect line of dialogue.
[28:19]And, you know, I encourage them,
[28:21]if you're stuck, write the worst line of dialogue
[28:25]that you can think of.
[28:26]And know to yourself, oh, I know I'm just writing
[28:28]a really crappy line right now,
[28:30]just so I can move the story forward.
[28:32]And I'll come back to that line later.
[28:35]And I equate it to, you know,
[28:37]I have a bunch of friends who are musicians,
[28:38]I play music a little bit.
[28:40]No one writing a song is ever going to freeze in the middle
[28:45]because they don't know what chord they should try next, right?
[28:49]You would go from your C to an F,
[28:50]no, that doesn't sound right to an A minor to a G.
[28:53]Oh, okay, I like the sound of that.
[28:55]As writers sometimes we get so handcuffed,
[28:58]we're afraid to try the next chord,
[29:00]because we're afraid it has to be perfect.
[29:02]I was like, let it be garbage.
[29:04]You don't have to show it to anyone.
[29:06]Yeah, in the same way that you're noodling around
[29:08]on a guitar, you're not showing that to anyone.
[29:10]And that's really been, and again,
[29:12]as a young writer, I did not do that.
[29:14]I was handcuffed by those moments.
[29:16]And once I embrace sort of these next three scenes,
[29:19]I don't know what they should be.
[29:20]I'll write the bad version just because I know
[29:23]I'm excited for that scene that's coming up
[29:25]in my outline or the scene I'm excited to write.
[29:27]That's really been liberating for me.
[29:29]And then you go back and you'll look at those scenes
[29:31]and sometimes they're not as bad as you thought.
[29:33]Yes, and that's always great.
[29:35]I'm like, it's not like terrible.
[29:38]Yeah, I could work with this.
[29:40]Yeah, I could do something.
[29:41]Yeah.
[29:42]And congratulations, thank you so much for coming on.
[29:45]Anything I can do to help.
[29:46]I mean, it's really wonderful and I'm excited.
[29:50]Kids can read it, grownups can read it.
[29:52]It's really awesome.
[29:53]And especially at this time of life.
[29:55]Oh my gosh, just so brilliant.
[29:57]Really poignant.
[29:58]What are you saying?
[29:59]Yep.
[30:00]Better sweet. All right. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
[30:07]Thanks for listening to moms. Don't have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social at
[30:14]the Owens and at Zibi readers.