A Zibby Summer Reads pick! Sara Goodman Confino, BEHIND EVERY GOOD MAN
[0:02]Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books, hosted by me, Zibi Owens.
[0:07]It's an award-winning podcast with over 1900 episodes, all featuring authors of Books You Love, and those you have yet to discover.
[0:15]Listen daily five times a week. Then go to ZibiMedia.com and learn more about what the LA Times called the Zibiverse.
[0:22]ZibiMedia includes Zibi's bookshop, an independent bookstore in Santa Monica, ZibiBooks Publishing, Zibi Retreat, Zibi's Book Club, and more.
[0:31]Go check it out at ZibiMedia.com and follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens. It'll take you where you need to go.
[0:38]Thanks for listening.
[0:42]Sarah Goodman-Confino is the author of Behind Every Good Man, a novel.
[0:47]Sarah teaches high school English and journalism in Montgomery County, Maryland, where she lives with her husband, two sons, and miniature snowsers, Sandy, and Gracie.
[0:56]When she's not writing or working out, she can be found on the beach or at a Bruce Springsteen show.
[1:00]Sometimes even dancing on stage.
[1:02]Welcome, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on.
[1:04]Mom, starting out time to read books to discuss your novel behind Every Good Man.
[1:09]Congratulations.
[1:11]Thank you.
[1:12]I really love this book. I love your voice.
[1:14]I love the characters, the unexpected things, the mom, the kid.
[1:20]I mean, all of it. It was so fun and the Jewish element and women's empowerment.
[1:26]I mean, all of it. So many great themes, such a fun story.
[1:29]I would turn pages the whole time. So thank you for this one.
[1:33]Thank you. I had a lot of fun writing it, honestly, just researching it, just everything.
[1:37]It was great.
[1:38]So tell listeners what your book is about, please.
[1:41]So this one is set in 1962.
[1:44]We have our main character Beverly Diamond.
[1:46]She is a 27-year-old wife and mother, two young children.
[1:50]And her husband is running a Senate reelection campaign in Maryland for a sitting senator.
[1:55]And her father's a retired congressman, and she walked into her husband's office and catches him
[1:59]cheating with his secretary, you know, the ultimate cliche.
[2:02]And he tries to be like, oh, well, you know, since we had kids who are not paying attention,
[2:06]she says, not on kicks him out.
[2:08]And he tries to threaten her and is like, well, you're going to have to downsize.
[2:12]And I did a lot of research with a lawyer friend.
[2:14]He actually was totally bluffing on that.
[2:17]And she says, well, no, I'm not downsizing. I'm going to get a job.
[2:20]And he's like, well, what are you going to do?
[2:21]And she realizes the one thing she knows is politics.
[2:23]So she goes to the opposing candidate and says, if you want to win this thing,
[2:26]I'm your new campaign manager.
[2:28]And it's just so much fun.
[2:30]I really enjoyed writing this one.
[2:31]I love rereading it.
[2:32]Like, this is my favorite thing I've done by far.
[2:34]Yeah, I love it.
[2:36]And I think every author has to say that with every book, but it's true.
[2:38]Like, this one really is my favorite.
[2:40]I mean, it would sort of take the wind out of people's sails if you were like,
[2:43]this book is okay, but like read my last read.
[2:45]You're like, okay.
[2:48]So where did this idea come from for you?
[2:50]So I think it piggybacked a little bit off of my most recent one,
[2:54]which just don't forget to write, which I'm going to tell the little backstory of that idea.
[2:58]Yeah, yeah.
[2:59]The day that one came out, my editor emailed me and was like, what's next?
[3:03]And she had just rejected my previous idea that I was 40,000 birds into it.
[3:08]And I was not thrilled about that.
[3:09]And a bookstagrammer had actually called me the marvelous Mrs. Confino that morning.
[3:14]And I joked that I was going to put that in my classroom door, which I did.
[3:18]I'd appeal it off yesterday and worked my nails.
[3:20]It was my last day of teaching yesterday, which is intense.
[3:23]But I had that Mrs. Maisel idea.
[3:26]And my editor said she wanted a character with similar vibes to my previous heroine,
[3:32]but not a copycat character.
[3:33]And I was like, I have no clue what that means, but okay, I'll try and figure that out.
[3:38]And we were on the beach and I just had this Mrs. Maisel feeling in my head.
[3:41]And I loved the idea of the early 60s when everything was so bright and colorful
[3:45]and precetity assassination.
[3:47]But there was still a lot going on beneath the surface.
[3:49]The kind of wasn't being addressed yet that we knew was going to reach a boiling point.
[3:53]So I had fun with that era for don't forget to write.
[3:56]And when it came time to do the next one, I just had this idea of a scorned woman in my head.
[4:00]And I wanted someone who could get revenge without it being like mean and evil.
[4:05]She was just going to stand up herself and do the right thing for herself or her family
[4:09]for everyone really.
[4:11]And I don't know.
[4:12]I got that idea of the cheating husband.
[4:14]And then I wanted something that she could do.
[4:16]I didn't want it to be like, oh, I'm just doing this for me.
[4:19]And I don't know the politics thing just kind of came up.
[4:22]I definitely realized once I sold the book that I knew nothing about politics in the 1960s.
[4:27]So I had to do some research there.
[4:29]But one of the more fun things too is my aunt and uncle have actually been my research team
[4:34]for the last two books.
[4:36]They are 87 and 91 right now.
[4:40]And remember literally everything.
[4:42]It's crazy.
[4:43]Like my uncle graduated from New Penn Dental School in 1958.
[4:48]So for don't forget to write, he knew everything about Philadelphia and the Jersey Shore
[4:52]in that era and then they moved down to DC after that.
[4:55]And so he just knew everything.
[4:57]So like I remember I would text him sometimes and just be like, how did you get from here
[5:00]to here before they built this road and he'd send me a map and how long it would take
[5:04]in 1962 to get there and like, how do you know this?
[5:09]So that was really a lot of fun getting to use them for family.
[5:12]My uncle actually when I told him the premise for this book at first said, oh,
[5:17]you should have her catch him at the Colonial Manor Motel.
[5:20]I'd never heard of this place in my life and I was like, what, what is that?
[5:23]And he tells me like what restaurant is sitting on its property right now.
[5:26]So I know exactly where it is.
[5:28]And he said, oh, that's where everyone used to go to cheap and if you cheat.
[5:31]And if you looked at the book, it was all like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington
[5:34]signing into the motel.
[5:36]And that actually became the climax scene of the book by favorite chapter.
[5:40]And it is with the Colonial Manor Motel.
[5:42]And it was just this little thing that I would have never known about if he hadn't
[5:46]told me that.
[5:47]So I actually dedicated this book to that aunt and uncle because they I couldn't have done
[5:51]this without them.
[5:52]They're fantastic.
[5:53]And they're very excited about that.
[5:55]So that's fun.
[5:56]I love by the way, when the daughter Debbie, when she's talking about cheating and she's
[6:00]like living with the cheater and she's like, what do you saw a cheetah?
[6:03]And I didn't.
[6:04]Let's go to the zoo.
[6:05]Oh my gosh, so funny.
[6:06]So my friends who have read this are all like, oh, so that's Max.
[6:10]My now four year old and like, yeah, pretty much okay, like climbing into mom's bed.
[6:15]We just got him out of our bed by buying a cot for our room, but you know, get him.
[6:20]It's a lot, but there's definitely some influence with the kids there.
[6:24]So my seven year old is very excited that the whole thing of learning to ride a bike is
[6:28]in there because that was definitely him.
[6:30]And he wants me to tell everybody that, you know, the five year old son is based on him.
[6:34]So, you know, it's so funny, you know, as we're talking, it's like graduation season
[6:38]and I was on Instagram for usual.
[6:40]And so I, an old friend of mine who I've sort of lost touch with posing in a photo with
[6:45]her son who graduated high school and I was thinking to myself, like, that kid slept
[6:51]in her bed for so long, like, and she was like, I don't know if he'll ever stop sleeping
[6:55]in my bed.
[6:56]And I was like, yeah, I don't know either.
[6:57]He's pretty old.
[6:58]And I was just looking at the dinner.
[6:59]And I'm like, that he stops sleeping in her bed by now, you know, like it all works
[7:05]out in the end.
[7:06]There's so much like that with motherhood, like I remember freaking out that he wasn't
[7:10]walking yet at almost 15 months.
[7:13]And you know, you don't see anybody crawling in the grocery store like they all eventually
[7:16]walk, but especially when it's your first, you're just like, oh no, like, everybody else
[7:19]is doing this and you aren't.
[7:20]And, you know, he eventually walked just fine and never stopped.
[7:24]And yeah.
[7:25]We had a late walk or two.
[7:27]Can we talk about the mom character in this book?
[7:29]I think she's one of my favorite characters and definitely reminds me of several women
[7:34]I know very, very well.
[7:36]But I love how you have the evolution of her character and how she's portrayed in the beginning
[7:42]and how she has returned to the corner and why and what we realize about her that like
[7:47]the penultimate act and all of it, like so awesome to have a mom like that because she
[7:53]must have been born.
[7:55]When was she born?
[7:56]19?
[7:57]So she would have been something or something a little bit earlier, even.
[8:02]Yeah.
[8:03]Maybe about her and sort of the role of the wife as you see it in those generations.
[8:08]And crazy, by the way, that the main character is only 20, Beverly is only 27.
[8:12]I mean, it seems like she's so inner.
[8:15]She must be in her 40s, right?
[8:17]Definitely feels like that now with how you know, you hit 40 and suddenly you're like,
[8:21]okay, I don't really care if you don't like me anymore.
[8:23]Like we're good.
[8:24]It's fine.
[8:25]You know, some of that I think definitely comes from the banter between me and my mother.
[8:29]We have like fans on Facebook.
[8:31]It's hysterical because people just love how we bicker with each other about literally
[8:35]everything.
[8:36]And, you know, some of it's an act, some of it's how we actually are.
[8:40]And there's just that role of the Jewish mother who, you know, she's got to pick at
[8:44]you a fair bit because that's just what they do.
[8:47]But it's also loving.
[8:49]And I think my favorite interaction between Bevin her mom is actually when they're getting
[8:53]ready to go to Rosh Hashanah and Bev has gotten everybody else ready.
[8:57]is ready to go.
[8:58]And she realizes she forgot to buy herself a dress and her mother just goes and pulls
[9:01]one out that she bought for her and says, I remember what it was like to have to put
[9:06]yourself last.
[9:08]And, you know, I think we don't see that a lot of the time until we become moms ourselves
[9:13]and realize how much sacrifice there really is in being a mom.
[9:17]Like when your kids are little, you kind of give up who you are in a lot of ways and
[9:22]it's hard to find that again sometimes.
[9:24]I mean, I definitely have struggled with that partially because we had my second son in
[9:29]May of 2020.
[9:30]So right in the midst of COVID and everything.
[9:32]And, you know, I was entirely a mom during that period because there was no one to help
[9:37]me.
[9:38]And I mean, my mom did come up where we were a bubble together, but and I did spend
[9:42]his first year teaching while wearing him.
[9:44]It was me and a baby head on zoom, which, you know, it's good breath control for the
[9:48]teenagers.
[9:49]Not really.
[9:50]They would sign out if my mother took him.
[9:52]It really kind of is finding yourself back in your element and figuring out who you are
[9:56]outside of just being a mom and figuring out all of.
[10:00]and I think it's interesting how Beverly initially doesn't see that with her mother.
[10:05]She sees her mother's kind of selfish and her mother is very like, I am the most important one.
[10:10]And by the end, she definitely sees more of herself and her mother.
[10:13]She sees that struggle going on and when she first moves in,
[10:19]Millie paints it very much as, oh, I'm here to help you. That's all I'm doing.
[10:22]And it takes some of spoil anything, but Beverly eventually realizes that Millie has also left her
[10:27]father and she's now got to get her parents back together. So that idea of, you know,
[10:32]you look at your parents' marriage as an outsider, even though you grew up in it.
[10:36]And I think that there's a lot of growing up in that and sort of recognizing what your parents
[10:41]went through and seeing yourself in that sometimes. That's really eye-opening. Like seeing
[10:47]my mother as a grandmother has been a really cool experience for me because there's that meme,
[10:52]you know, when I was growing up, you'll get what you get. And my mom is a grandma, you know,
[10:56]okay, darling, would you like your grilled cheese cutting the hearts or stars?
[10:59]And you look at that, you're like, you were not my mother. Like what?
[11:03]And I just, I love being able to see that change, that relationship. And just, I'm seeing her
[11:09]in the new light. And I think that a lot of that came through in this book. I love that.
[11:14]Wait, you mentioned and I saw in our group chat that you are no longer in teacher.
[11:18]Why did you, what happened there? So I've been teaching for 21 years right now.
[11:24]And while I love it, the end goal was always to be writing. So part of the reason when I decided
[11:30]not to go into journalism, I called my mother crying from a parking lot at University of Maryland.
[11:35]But 23 years ago now, I was like, I don't think I want to do this. And I like the idea of teaching
[11:41]because I knew I wanted to write. I considered law school and knew if I became a lawyer and ever
[11:45]wanted to have a family, I was never going to have time to actually sit down and write a book.
[11:49]So I loved having the summers to write. But I kind of thought that each book would be about the
[11:56]same level of publicity and work and that I'd be able to keep doing this. And it's definitely
[12:01]exponential, not linear when you have workbooks out, which it's a lot right now. I am also
[12:08]struggling to have any time to write because my four-year-old is still napping a daycare sometimes
[12:12]which means he's up until 10 o'clock at night, which is a nightmare. As most of my writing time
[12:17]happens after the kids go to bed. And my husband just took a job working as an archivist for a musician
[12:24]and so he's on the road a lot. And when he's out of town, I have zero writing time, like it just
[12:28]my kids are four and seven. And they need a lot. So right now it just made more sense
[12:35]to take a step back from teaching and see if I can make this work full-time, which I teach primarily
[12:41]electives. I teach journalism creative writing and I run the newspaper. So I teach those kids for
[12:45]multiple years. So having to tell them that I wasn't coming back next year was, I mean I cried,
[12:50]they wanted to come for me. I thought they were going to cry, but they got it. And that was a really
[12:55]special moment for me. I had one of my journalism students say you taught us to follow our dreams.
[13:00]How can we not be happy when you're following yours? And I bought a lot of works. I started
[13:04]bawling. They turned me a going away party the other day. It was the cutest thing. I wear
[13:08]a ton of leopard print. They had the little leopard print party hats and they did a pinata. I mean,
[13:12]they really went all out. And the gifts that they gave me, they got me a notebook. They know that
[13:16]I plot on paper and they all signed it. So I would remember them when I'm working and it just
[13:21]was really sweet. So it was a hard decision, but I also couldn't justify getting this far in my
[13:27]writing career and then having to stop. So, you know, I took a year of leave. I can take up to three
[13:33]years of leave and we'll see what happens. And if it doesn't work, I'll go back. But fingers crossed,
[13:38]we'll see what happens. Wow. So take me back a little bit to the other books. Talk about
[13:44]your first novel and get up to this one. So my first novel is not the same as my debut novel.
[13:52]Actually, I only know a handful of authors and I think you may be one of them actually who got
[13:57]their first novel published. I don't know. I did not get my first book. Are you kidding? Okay. So it's
[14:03]that's not just me. Yeah. My debut for the love of friends was the fifth one that I wrote.
[14:07]So I actually self published two back a million years ago. One of them sold in front. One is
[14:12]into and then I grabbed one of them landed an agent with my next one, which never actually sold.
[14:17]And then for the love of friends was my debut, which is a story of a 32 year old single girl
[14:22]who is in five weddings in the same summer and starts a blog to deal with all the craziness.
[14:26]And you can tell immediately where that's going to go. And it was mildly inspired by a few friends
[14:31]weddings. My best friend and I are great now, but there was a full year where her ringtone was
[14:36]the Darth Vader theme music. Her wedding was a lot. So I mean, she read the book before it even
[14:41]went to my agent. But when it came out, she kept calling me and being like, Oh God, I did that to you.
[14:45]Didn't I? And I was like, a little bit, but we're good now. And then my second one kind of grew
[14:50]out of that. One of my favorite things that authors do was when they bring back characters from a
[14:54]different book. And it's just kind of an Easter egg for people who read a lot of the same stuff.
[14:58]So the grandmother in for the love of friends was a huge fan favorite. She is loosely inspired
[15:03]by my own grandmother who was a total nut job, which she's 97 now. She was in that job 40 years
[15:09]ago though. So it's not like it was an old age thing. She's always been out there. So that one,
[15:14]she's up to no good is story of Jenna who's 34. She's actually Lily, the main character and for the
[15:19]love of friends, first cousin. And her husband springs a divorce on her. And she's kind of lost
[15:26]for about six months. She moves back into their parents. She doesn't know what she's doing with
[15:29]herself. And her grandmother shows up and is like, come on, we're taking a road trip to my hometown
[15:33]in Massachusetts. And Jenna agrees to go because her grandmother otherwise is driving herself at 87
[15:38]with no driver's license, which, you know, as one does. That one was inspired by my grandmother
[15:44]who announced the same thing at 91. And I had a one year old at the time. It was not going to
[15:49]drive her 10 hours. But I thought started thinking, where would I have to be in my life to be like
[15:54]hop in the car? We're going to go because I've done a couple road trips with my grandmother,
[15:58]which were interesting to say the least. And that one is a dual timeline to get grandma's back
[16:04]story. And she starts talking that her first love, who she wasn't allowed to marry because
[16:08]he wasn't Jewish. And she eventually Jenna meet the younger character, meets her grandmother's
[16:14]first love's great nephew and of course sparks fly there. And the two storylines eventually
[16:18]converge together. And then don't forget to write them on the kind of lead behind every
[16:23]good man is set in 1960, like I said with the marvelous Mrs. Maisel vibes. And it opens with a
[16:29]20 year old girl, Marilyn, who gets caught making out with the rabbi's son by which I mean everyone
[16:35]catches them because they go crashing through a stained glass window during the middle of
[16:38]Shabbat services. And her parents try to tell her that she has to marry the boy. And she's like,
[16:43]now it's 1916 not 1860. And we only kissed them not doing that. So they send her to her great
[16:48]aunt who is a matchmaker in Philadelphia to kind of straighten out for the summer and her great
[16:53]aunt is not what she expected. And that one is a whole lot of fun. And then here we are. Oh my gosh,
[16:59]wow. So a lot of divorce in these books, but you're not, is there a divorce in your family? You're
[17:05]not divorced or were you divorced before this? I do not know. My mom keeps saying like, okay,
[17:11]we got a couple of divorces. And my next one is actually about a widow. She was like,
[17:14]should I be worried here? But I think part of that is when you're looking at characters,
[17:20]especially if you want to incorporate kids in any way, if you want to have a romance element,
[17:24]well, there's got to be something that happens so they can actually find love again. If
[17:28]they're already happily married, the romance element kind of fizzles that right there. So I think
[17:33]that's kind of why I did that. But wait, tell me more about your next one. So my next one,
[17:38]which I'm not that far into because children are not sleeping in my house right now. I don't
[17:44]have a title yet, but it has sold. It is 1916 in the same era. And my main character is a 30-year-old
[17:52]widow. Her husband died two years earlier, and her mother moves in to help take care of the kids
[17:56]for two years. And after two years, she says, you know what? I'm ready to do this on my own. She
[18:00]sends her mother home. And a couple days later, her father and mom are on her doorstep with five
[18:04]suitcases and she announces she's moving in. So she tries to get rid of her and fails miserably at
[18:11]that. And then realizes the only way she's getting rid of her mother-in-law is to marry her off.
[18:15]Only to discover her mother-in-law is also trying to set her up sometimes with the same men.
[18:21]And eventually my common ground, it's a fun one so far. I'm really enjoying writing both
[18:26]perspectives on that one and seeing where it goes. Wow, that's so great. And you're at Lake Union,
[18:32]which is an Amazon publishing thing, which I also write out there. So how has your experience been
[18:37]in general terms, you know? They've been awesome, to be honest. Like I kind of
[18:43]insulted auction. We had three different authors. And I went with Lake Union because they promised
[18:48]they'd be able to market it in ways that a lot of the big five publishers weren't going to be able
[18:52]to with a baby author. And they've really come through on that. I mean, don't forget to write
[18:57]hit number two in the entire US Kindle store during first reads, which was crazy. I will say
[19:03]the coolest thing that happened with that when it was number two, freedom of fat and having
[19:06]numbers one, three, and four books. And she actually reached out to me, congratulated me until
[19:11]me. She was downloading, don't forget to write, which was the classiest thing ever. Like that
[19:14]is such goals right there. But that was very cool. My editor just left, which I am nervous about,
[19:21]but the new one seems great so far. And yeah, I've had no complaints. They've been wonderful.
[19:27]Amazing. Well, this feels very cinematic, I have to say. I feel like they could totally be
[19:31]even like a little series about character. Have you chopped it around? Or is that
[19:36]oh, on the list of things to do? We've had little nibbles on all four so far. We haven't actually
[19:41]gotten anywhere with any of them, but we've had a little bit of interest. So we'll see, you know,
[19:45]sometimes it moves. It's a lot of hurry up and wait in this industry. Like let's see where it goes.
[19:52]I kept joking. I would be happy to let them set it on Mars if they want to make this
[19:55]character. Like I'm fine. I really liked how you had.
[20:00]Jewish woman, character, family, how you woven Russia's Shana and all the things, right?
[20:07]I feel like in my book Blank, which it's the same thing people commented, like how nice that
[20:12]you don't have like a stereotype of a Jewish family. And I'm like, why do we have to say really?
[20:17]Like are there that many stereotypes? And so normally I wouldn't say that. You know,
[20:22]I would just say how great there's a Jewish family, but I'm wondering if you've gotten that
[20:26]comment as well. And, you know, in today's day and age, I know you have the part about,
[20:31]you know, the receptionist saying the boss saying the receptionist is Jewish and she shouldn't work
[20:37]there. And, you know, you've referenced all the exclusion of country clubs, which I know very well
[20:42]and all that. So tell me about that and where you are with that in terms of the world at large.
[20:49]So the country club incident actually happened to my grandmother in 1967. She went to get a job.
[20:55]I'm not going to name the country club, but it still exists in the DC area. I drove past it a
[20:59]couple weeks ago and might have stuck up a certain thing or it's fine. But she went to get
[21:04]a job there. And they were like, oh, we love you. You're perfect. We just have to get rid of the other
[21:07]one. She's Jewish. And my grandmother ripped up her application and said, you don't want me
[21:11]either then and walked out. And that has just become family lore at this point. But I love that.
[21:16]And when I wrote that, I finished this book well before October 7th. I had no idea how timely it was
[21:21]going to be when the book came out. You know, it's funny with my first book. So for the love of
[21:27]friends, I made my character half Jewish on purpose. I was not sure that people were going to read
[21:34]a book about a Jewish girl who is in these weddings and everything. And I was nervous about it.
[21:39]And nobody said a single word in 2021 when that one came out. So I thought, you know what,
[21:44]I'm just going to go for it. This is my experience. And then the kind of bizarre thing that led me
[21:50]to all of these Jewish authors who I'm now connected with is I did the Jewish book council for
[21:55]she's up to no good, which is a great organization that hopes Jewish authors up with speaking
[22:00]engagements around the country. I had a fabulous experience. But I'm watching all these presentations
[22:06]and like 90 95% of the books are about the Holocaust. And I'm sitting there like, hi,
[22:12]I write happy funny books. Please not kick me out. Like my love to be here. And it was just really
[22:19]interesting. And then later I was talking to Jean Meltzer about the same thing. And we were like,
[22:24]we're right, happy books. No one dies in our books. Like it's all good. And we really came up with
[22:30]this concept of how we need more Jewish joy. And you know, suffering is part of our heritage
[22:35]half of our holidays are what people trying to kill us. But there's more of our experience than
[22:40]that. We're not just our suffering. And I think the Black community has a very similar
[22:45]experience with publishing, to be honest, where people are much more interested in the sad stories,
[22:50]the stories of trauma and suffering and not the happy stories that are there that are important
[22:55]to tell as well. So that really has become a driving factor for me and some of these stories.
[23:00]People are like, are you going to keep writing Jewish characters? Well, yes, I am. I think we need
[23:04]more happy Jewish stories out there. I got a comment from a book club that it took I'd say close
[23:10]to a month to try to figure out if it was complimentary and insult, honestly. It was a group
[23:14]of women in Texas. They had no Jewish friends. They didn't know any Jews. And what they said to me
[23:20]that they liked about whichever book of mind they read, I don't even know if it was she's up to
[23:24]no good or don't forget to write, was that my characters were Jewish without that being their entire
[23:29]personality. And at the time, I was like, I don't know what that means, but I'm going to smile
[23:35]and not and say cool. Thank you. But the more I read, I'm starting to understand what they meant
[23:40]because there are definitely some books out there where it's almost like the Barbie movie where
[23:44]like Ken's job is beach where you see some characters and it feels like their whole personalities
[23:48]just do like right in the cross their chest. And I think it's important, especially right now
[23:53]with all the antisemitism, with all of the demonization, that people see that we're people above
[23:59]like we are, you know, we go to a different kind of house of worship. We celebrate some different
[24:05]holidays, but we're people. And I think that it's lost sometimes, which it shouldn't, but it does.
[24:12]So that's been kind of eye opening to me as well when, you know, you get some reviews and they're like,
[24:17]oh, I wasn't familiar with Judaism. And I'm like, but it's a human story, like, okay. So I don't know
[24:25]that's been different. But I do have another family antisemitic story that's going into the next
[24:31]book. This was a funny moment. My other grandmother who died in 2009. She was from Romania
[24:37]and very old country, like, you know, big accent and everything. She was volunteering in a hospital
[24:43]at one point. And she was taking like the lunch or breakfast order for this woman. And she offered
[24:50]her a bagel. You know, she was like, do you want to toast her a bagel? And the woman gets all
[24:53]offended. And she goes, I would never eat a bagel. I'm not Jewish. My grandmother just looked at
[24:57]her. I was like, lady, do I look Chinese to you? Because I like egg rolls and look like chow
[25:01]mine. You can eat a bagel. And, you know, it's just one of those things like people really think
[25:07]like that. Like that's kind of crazy. And we're starting to see it again. My seven-year-old a couple
[25:13]weeks ago asked me why people hate Jews. And that was just such a heartbreaking moment that he
[25:19]at seven needs to ask that question. So I'm going to keep putting out these happy stories and let
[25:24]him know that our whole history isn't suffering and know not everybody hates us and
[25:29]we're going to try to make the world a little better as we can. I love that. Amazing. Keep going.
[25:34]I'm sure you have so much advice as a teacher for 21 years. A couple tidbits for our listeners.
[25:41]What advice do you have for aspiring authors? So the best piece of advice I have, I completely
[25:48]stole from Stephen King, but it is the best advice I've got. You know what? If somebody is going
[25:52]to tell you how to be a successful author, he is a good person to look at. And his book on writing,
[25:57]he talked about how you need to treat writing like a job. If you needed money, you'd get a
[26:01]part-time job and you'd go even if you're tired and don't feel like doing it, you'd go because
[26:05]you need the money. If you don't treat writing the same way, you're never going to finish a project.
[26:10]And there are so many people who are like, oh yeah, I'm going to write a book someday and they
[26:14]never put their butts in the chair and sit down and do it. So that is the most important thing.
[26:19]I come and I sit in this room after my kids go to bed, even if it's way, way later than I want it
[26:24]to be. And I see what I can come off with in some nights. It's not much. And some nights it's gold.
[26:30]And it really is directly correlated. So what time does it go to sleep at night? But they'll
[26:35]eventually get bigger, put themselves to bed, right? Like that will happen someday, right?
[26:40]Yes. Okay. Good. And you'll feel like you've been training at high altitudes.
[26:44]And I mean, because then you'll just be able to crank it out and be like, oh, wow.
[26:49]Chris, I did not think that it'd be easier when they were like infants to do that, but somehow
[26:54]this has been rough. But that really is it. You have to sit down and you have to do it.
[26:58]And you have to really treat it like it is something you're getting paid for that you need to do
[27:03]or you're never going to finish a project. And that was really, you know, he used it right over the
[27:07]summer. And then once I had kids and they were too young for camp, I didn't have my summers
[27:11]anymore. And I really had to take that advice. The other best piece of advice and I really wish
[27:16]I knew where I got this and I have no idea. But it's if you are writing a chapter or a scene and
[27:22]you don't want to write it, you're like, oh, I have to write this scene to get to whatever I want to
[27:26]write. Skip it, cut it out completely. If you don't want to write it, your readers don't want to read
[27:30]it either. And that's really revolutionized my writing because I used to write very key
[27:35]mail and I would write like the candy scene but you totally wanted to and they'd be like, oh,
[27:39]I have to get there. And the problem is that doesn't work. So that's the other piece of advice
[27:43]that I give all of my aspiring writers. Oh, that's a really good one. Okay. I did not make it up.
[27:50]I stole it from somewhere and I don't know where or so. Whoever did that, if you're listening,
[27:53]thank you. I mean, my two cents now that I have slightly older children is that it is crazy.
[28:01]It, anything you get done it during this time is like a bonus and there will be lots of time,
[28:07]God willing to keep cranking out the books. And I feel like there's all this pressure and publishing
[28:11]to like a book a year, keep up the pace or whatever. And like just because there's that out there,
[28:16]it doesn't mean your readers forget you. Like as you know, as a reader, like we read the stuff that
[28:20]we want by people we love whenever it comes out. And we don't say, oh, it's two years and three months
[28:25]instead of a year and a half. Right. So I would just give yourself, this is totally not my place,
[28:31]but I would just give yourself a little grace. You're going to get it done and you're going to miss those
[28:35]little cheeks. Anyway, I've already been told I'm not allowed to hold my seven-year-old hand
[28:39]to drop off anymore. I'm very embarrassing, apparently. Uh-oh. Well, Sarah, thank you. Again,
[28:47]I really enjoyed the book. Congratulations and look forward to your next one. Thank you so much. Okay,
[28:54]thanks. Thanks for listening to mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you love it, please leave
[29:00]a review and follow us on social at Civi Owens and at Civi readers.