A Zibby Summer Reads pick! Clare Pooley, HOW TO AGE DISGRACEFULLY
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[0:42]Claire Poulie is the author of How to Age Disgracefully A Novel.
[0:47]Claire graduated from Cambridge University and then spent 20 years in the heady world of advertising before becoming a full-time writer.
[0:54]Her debut novel The Authenticity Project was a New York Times bestseller and has been translated into 29 languages.
[1:01]I own Iverson's Rules for Commuting as her second novel.
[1:04]Her third novel How to Age Disgracefully is the one we talked about.
[1:07]Claire lives in full-im London with her husband, three children, and two-boarder terriers.
[1:12]Welcome Claire.
[1:13]Thank you so much for coming.
[1:14]And mom, I'm starting to have time to read books to discuss how to age disgracefully.
[1:18]Congratulations.
[1:20]Oh, thank you.
[1:21]I'm delighted to be here.
[1:22]Thank you for asking me.
[1:24]It's my pleasure.
[1:25]I'm always thinking about how to age, maybe not totally disgracefully, but, you know, I'm not sure I'm going to be at Pasha,
[1:30]but maybe you never know.
[1:33]And if you tell us, there is what your book is about, please.
[1:38]Oh, well, the stories are revolves around a lady who's about the same age as me.
[1:43]She's called Lydia.
[1:44]She's menopausal, her two daughters of left home and gone to university.
[1:49]And she thinks her husband is having an affair.
[1:52]So she's not terribly happy.
[1:54]And she takes this job from the local council working as a coordinator for this new senior citizens.
[2:00]social club.
[2:01]And she imagines that her day is going to be filled with older people playing bingo or knitting or doing jigsaw's.
[2:10]And needless to say, it doesn't turn out like that at all.
[2:13]The people who turn up for her social club are rather eclectic, very badly behaved.
[2:19]And they all have very interesting backstories that we gradually discover.
[2:24]Anyway, to cut a long story short, right at the very beginning,
[2:28]a terrible accident happens and the council threatened to close the hall that the social center uses.
[2:36]So they join together with the nursery next door and try and say to save their hall and all sorts of rather hilarious hygents in tune.
[2:48]Yes, they do.
[2:52]So I read after I read the book, I went and then I saw the authors note, which explained how you started with the prologue and then had to figure out who to make all the characters,
[3:01]but that the idea of the minibuster started first with how everybody would be confessing there.
[3:06]And then you delved into who the characters were, which I found fascinating in terms of process because I would have assumed you would start sort of with the characters.
[3:15]Anyway, just tell me about how this whole thing came to be and how you were able to even just like interweave all of their stories and get to the end.
[3:24]It seems like a feat.
[3:27]I never understand those authors who are able to plot everything in advance.
[3:33]And I know people who have these incredible whiteboards and they detailed exactly what's going to happen in every chapter and everything.
[3:40]And I just, I mean, all, I mean, I just can't do that because I sort of have to get to know my characters really well before I know exactly what they're going to do and how they're going to react and how they're going to interact and all of that sort of stuff.
[3:55]And so when I start a story, I have a beginning and I have an end.
[4:01]Funny enough, I always know what the end is, even if sometimes it changes a bit, but I know roughly where I'm going.
[4:07]And I have a few key scenes in my head and then I just start writing and hope or starts coming together and generally what happens is initially it feels really awkward and really wooden.
[4:21]What you hope is at some point this sort of magic thing happens where your characters just start improvising and doing their own thing and then you're just writing down what they're doing and and that's really what happened here.
[4:35]So I had this scene in my head which became the prologue and I started with that, which is this group of senior citizens and young children being pulled over and many of us on the motorway by policemen.
[4:51]And all of them start think that it's them that the policeman is looking for and they all start confessing to various crimes.
[4:58]And then we have to work out what crimes have been committed by whom so that that's sort of how I work, which is a little bit haphazard but luckily it all seems to come together by the end.
[5:13]Well, I love how you sort of interspersed the point of view of different characters and we get to know Lydia but also Daphne and Art and Ziggy and how everybody's story ends up overlapping in different ways.
[5:26]Art starts out really wanting to continue to be an actor and his agent is having none of it.
[5:33]And he's like why would it have to end like and I think that's the theme throughout the whole book is sort of why does it end like why does anything have to end when none of us feel any older than when we were younger.
[5:46]And our bodies are like changing but we're not necessarily changing so much and our interests aren't necessarily changing so much and what where do all these expectations of aging and our culture come from and why can we not just do more stuff.
[6:00]Exactly and you know I'm 55 now I don't feel any different from the way I felt when I was 35 and I don't imagine I'm going to feel any different when I'm 75 and I was just getting a bit fed up with reading about older characters in literature who always had sort of minor parts and they were generally seen as rather sad old depressed miserable and and hopeless.
[6:27]And I thought actually I want to read a book about older characters who are really bossing it and ones who are showing the younger generation how to really live life rather than vice versa.
[6:40]So yeah so that was quite important to me and it was it was great fun to write to be honest.
[6:47]And I read that you were empty nesting and sort of feeling that frustration yourself and many of your peers and you know not to say you know I'm 47 so I'm right behind you I was 48 my gosh.
[7:00]So I know there's like a scene where she's like I'm 53 and like when Lydia it's just like oh my gosh the rest of my life.
[7:08]And like what do we do with these agents like what do we do with these numbers and what does you mean and how do we you know the panic that comes with it.
[7:17]Yeah and you know the truth is it shouldn't have to mean anything.
[7:22]And I you know I didn't want to retire and I'm lucky I do a job that I love but I don't ever want to stop so I have huge sympathy with art who you know whose career as an actor has never really taken off in the first place if you don't want to retire.
[7:36]So yeah I mean I I think 70 is the new 50 is the new 30.
[7:45]I know occasionally my dad says look in the mirror and be like who is that old guy you know.
[7:50]And I think why is my mother here yeah that's really funny.
[7:56]I know I turn into my mother more every day.
[7:59]So now she's doing better stuff with her aging than I am so she I think she actually looks younger than me but.
[8:07]like our different decisions tell me a little more I have to say I have not read the sober diaries and I really really want to.
[8:14]Now that I know about it and I've sort of fallen in love with how you write and your personality and voice on the page and all that and I know you've gone through a lot yourself and you've been sober for what nine years now 11 years what is it.
[8:27]Yeah nearly 10 years next year yeah I guess congratulations and that combined with breast cancer and writing about it and blogging tell me tell me about all that what was your life like before you started the blog and then like how has it everything changed.
[8:44]So I have to take you back to 2015 which was the year I quit drinking and basically I was a mum with three young kids and I had stopped work for a while after my my third child was born and I thought you know I'm just and I had a really full on job in advertising for 20 years and I thought it would be really great to spend more time at home with my kids just for a while.
[9:12]I was very privileged to be able to do that but it was also really hard work and I found that instead of drinking less I started drinking more and there was this whole mum wine culture and it was all about me time and sort of feeling grown up at the end of the day and.
[9:31]I got to the point where my wine habit just got more and more out of control and I was drinking 10 bottles of wine a week which was huge way more than the government guidelines so as a result I was anxious all the time I was an insomniac I my whole life was sort of stuck in a rut and I felt like I was just being a really bad mum and a really bad example to my kids you know so.
[9:55]I realized I had to quit I didn't want to tell anyone because I was so.
[10:00]aimed about the whole thing that I didn't want to talk to my doctor or my family or my friends
[10:04]or alcohol. It's anonymous, you know, anybody. But I had to do something by way of therapy.
[10:09]So I did what I had done as a teenager when I needed to work stuff out and I started writing.
[10:16]But instead of writing a traditional diary, I thought, okay, this is 2015. People don't
[10:22]write traditional diaries. They write blogs. So I sort of googled. How do I start a blog?
[10:28]And I set up this anonymous blog called Mummy was a secret drinker. And I wrote in it
[10:33]every single day about what was going on in my head. And it was because it was anonymous,
[10:38]it was brutally honest. And I really didn't think anyone would find it because I wasn't
[10:44]publicizing it. But it went viral. And people all over the world started reading this blog and
[10:50]saying, yeah, I feel like that too. And I do the same thing. And it was a lot of, I mean, I wrote it
[10:55]with a lot of humor. I mean, it's a black comedy effectively. And then eight months after I started
[11:00]writing this blog, I got breast cancer. So I started writing about that. And after a year, more and
[11:07]more people started saying, you should publish this as a book. And I ended up with a publishing
[11:12]deal with her shirt. And I published a book called The Sober Diaries, based on that blog
[11:19]in the beginning of 2018. So yeah, over six years ago now. But you know, I still get messages
[11:26]from people every single day who've read that book and say it's helped them. So it was a great
[11:31]thing to do. And by this stage, in a writing was my new addiction. So I switched to fiction. And
[11:41]the rest, as they say, is history. Wow. When did you decide to sort of come out and not be anonymous
[11:49]anymore? And what was that like? Oh, God, it was terrifying. I'm not, I was kind of outed by one of
[11:55]the mums at the school games. Oh, really? Oh, my gosh. So what happened was I had, so this was when
[12:03]I've been blogging for about a year under this pseudonym called myself Sober Mummy. And I threw
[12:10]a party to celebrate ending my cancer treatment. And so I invited a whole load of friends and
[12:16]family. And I told this sort of store. I did a speech. And I told a couple of funny stories in this
[12:22]speech. And then I went home and I wrote in my blog as I always did about what I'd been up to. And
[12:29]I wrote about the party. And I wrote about the speech that I made. And then I was, I went out shopping
[12:35]and I was walking down the King's Road in Chelsea in London. And I got this, I remember vividly
[12:41]getting this email from one of the mums at the school gate who I didn't know that well. But I
[12:46]invited to this party because she'd been really helpful when, you know, when I was had all these
[12:51]hospital appointments and everything. And I was reading this email that said, hi Claire, I've
[12:56]been reading this blog for about six months. And, you know, and it's really funny. And I often
[13:02]read out this loud to my husband and say, this sounds just like the sort of person I might know.
[13:07]And I think it's you. And I think I shouldn't be at the party and then read the blog. She put two
[13:14]and two together. And it became clear to me that, you know, I thought that nobody, nobody I knew
[13:22]was reading this. But it became clear that actually quite a few people I knew had been reading my
[13:27]blog and just had no idea it was me. And I'd always changed enough details to try and keep it,
[13:32]you know, keep my identity secret. Anyway, at that point I thought, look, I've got, I've got to start
[13:40]telling people that it's me. And, and also enough time had passed. It wasn't also raw. I wasn't
[13:46]so embarrassed and ashamed about the whole thing anymore. And yeah, so I sort of gradually came out
[13:54]and then the book was published and I did national TV, radio, press and suddenly everybody knew
[14:02]my innermost secrets. And that was, yeah, that was terrifying. Wow. I mean, it's amazing. What
[14:11]a story. And I'm so glad you shared. I mean, imagine if you hadn't, you know, where would your life be?
[14:16]What would have happened? You know what something I learned, which I often tell people in case
[14:22]it helps, which is, you know, I was really, really scared about people knowing the worst things
[14:28]about me. And, and I, if I'd been able to pull out three days before the book, you know, went on sale,
[14:36]I would have done, I really would have done. I was having these terrible recurring nightmare where
[14:41]I was walking down a street naked and everybody else had their clothes on because that's how it
[14:45]felt. It felt like I was about to walk down a busy shopping street with no clothes on. And,
[14:51]and what I learned is that when you make yourself really vulnerable and when you tell people,
[14:57]all the, you know, the bad things about yourself, people are genuinely really, really kind
[15:05]because everybody has something that they're struggling with. And, you know, and the thing is, once
[15:11]you're that honest about your life, nobody has anything left to throw at you anymore. There's no
[15:17]need to feel scared about what people might think and what people might say because you've sort
[15:22]of put it all out there and they've thought it and said it. And you've said it. And, you know,
[15:27]there's nothing left to be afraid of. So, you know, it does, it's the thought of it as really
[15:33]scary, but actually, you know, vulnerability makes you really strong. It's extraordinary sort of,
[15:41]yeah, it's an amazing thing to do really. That vulnerability makes you really strong.
[15:46]It's true. It's true. People see themselves, right? And they feel less alone. And yeah,
[15:54]they're not the only ones. You feel like there's, there's nothing left to hide anymore. And,
[16:00]you know, that's a, yeah, it's a very empowering thing. I had a memoir come out a couple years ago.
[16:05]And for me, it was when the net galley link went live, right? So for the advanced people,
[16:11]and I was like, oh my God, I can't take it back. Like I can't take it back. It's out there.
[16:17]It's not that anyone necessarily read it, but I remember just like sitting in my bed being like,
[16:22]oh my God, I can't like, how do I get it back? I kick it back. I know I did exactly the same.
[16:28]And yeah, even now, so I've now published the book that's about to come out is my fourth book.
[16:34]And, you know, I that net galley moment is still terrifying. If anything, it's important
[16:40]because you know more, you know, first time around, I didn't even know it was on my,
[16:44]I didn't even know about net galley when I, my first book was sort of published. But,
[16:49]but now, you know, waiting for those first net galley reviews to come through as terrifying.
[16:55]So it seems like in the novels that you switched to next, there is always a bit of an ensemble cast
[17:01]and things going awry and, and the assumptions we make about other people and how people
[17:07]responding groups and when bad things happen and, you know, how does that affect a group dynamic
[17:13]of people who come from all these different places and are suddenly united, right? I feel like
[17:18]they mostly have that kind of thing going on. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, in each,
[17:24]each book I've explored completely to different issues and through different characters,
[17:30]but the thing they all have in common is this sort of community. And I guess, as you say, the theme of
[17:37]the difference between what we show and who we really are. And I love playing with that. And
[17:42]I love playing with the way different characters will perceive the same person. So, you know,
[17:49]so for instance, and I own a writers and so also commuting, I love the fact that everybody had a
[17:53]different personal nickname for I own a, you know, and it told us a lot about them, how they saw
[18:00]so yeah, so that's something I think they all share.
[18:03]Well, I think a lot of writers and just a lot of people were always having to make these quick
[18:10]judgments about people that we see out and about, right? We don't even realize how fast our brains
[18:15]are like figuring stuff out and, you know, often, often wrong, right? But like, okay, this person
[18:21]is this way or okay, this person on the subway is whatever. You know, we just have to do that to
[18:27]get through the world and navigate. And yet, does that even help us? You know, it's like that
[18:33]human thing. Yeah, and often I, the things we, they sometimes do make about people so say more about
[18:41]us than they do about them. And I love exploring that. And I love reminding people that, you know,
[18:48]what you see is not absolutely never what you actually get. Yes, totally. Tell me what it's like
[18:58]being part of the sort of British author scene of like funny women writers. Like, I feel like you
[19:05]must all like get together and have coffees and laugh. And, you know, how does that work? Like,
[19:11]who's in the posse? And, you know, what is, what's it like for all of you over there?
[19:17]Oh, you know what? It's been friends with other authors is, is such a joy because it's the sort
[19:25]of, you know, it's a sort of job where that nobody else I don't think can properly understand because
[19:32]it's so, you know, there are some amazing highs, but there are also some real sort of, you know,
[19:39]some real lows in the process as well. And you're constantly being reviewed and judged and,
[19:44]you know, it's, yeah, it's a very unique sort of position to be in. So having other author
[19:49]friends where you can go, I'm a books on mekali or, you know, and remind each other that,
[19:56]you know, one bad review is not the
[20:00]end of the world because for every one bad one you've got 100 great ones and we have a habit
[20:04]of always focusing on the negative and not the positive. So you just need to have friends
[20:08]who can constantly remind you not to do that. So you know, not to spend ages looking at
[20:14]good reads and you know, all of that sort of thing. So yeah, so other author friends are really
[20:20]important. And you know, often a lot of, I mean, I meet people at festivals and that's an
[20:25]event and that sort of thing. But a lot of us meet through social media and what used to
[20:31]be called Twitter. There's a big sort of community of authors on Twitter and we all support each
[20:37]other and it's a sort of, you know, it's a very, it's a really supportive community. And you know,
[20:43]we, yeah, I think we all understand, you know, how tricky it can be. So so yeah, we're very
[20:50]we're very supportive of each other generally. You know, yeah, so it's I don't know what I would,
[20:56]I would do without them. But there's also always a sense of imposter syndrome. So you know,
[21:01]I went to this dinner recently and there were some, there were about 10 of us at this dinner.
[21:06]It was organized by my Swedish publisher and who was over for London book fair and they invited
[21:12]all of their British authors. So they're about 10 of us. And you know, JoJo Mois was there
[21:18]and Lisa Jewel was there and David Nichols was there. And there's this great picture.
[21:22]If you look at if you got my Instagram, you can see it. There's a picture of this dinner with
[21:25]all these really famous authors. And there's me in the corner of this expression on my face like
[21:30]this. There's this won't work on a podcast, but I'm looking like this. That's my imposter syndrome
[21:37]with her face because I was sitting there thinking, I do not deserve to be at this table.
[21:42]And I think all authors have, especially women, I think, have this imposter syndrome.
[21:49]You know, I am not part really part of this club. And yeah, I don't think I'm the only one
[21:56]that feels like that. But I'm not sure Jo Mois does.
[22:01]Oh, I love that so much. Are you touring in the US or no? No, not at the moment. I'm afraid.
[22:08]I'm going around the UK. But yeah, I'm not at the moment. I'm not doing the US. I think maybe
[22:15]when the paper back comes out, I might be able to get over there. I'd love to. I love,
[22:20]you know, I love visiting the US. And my eldest daughter is now studying in Canada. She's a
[22:29]McGill. So I've been out that way at this as well, which is great. Oh, that's wonderful.
[22:35]Awesome. I'm actually coming to the UK at the end of the summer.
[22:40]Oh, amazing. We're going to, I'm bringing my whole family to the Taylor Swift concert.
[22:47]Wembley, London. Yes. You did the con one. Oh, I'm lovely.
[22:54]Yeah, I would love to do that. Yeah, I'm the Swiftie.
[22:57]Amazing. I love to get tickets. We didn't manage to. So if anyone out there has a spare ticket that
[23:08]they do, let me know. Amazing. Well, Claire, thank you so much for chatting. I am literally going to
[23:16]get off this Zoom and buy the sober diaries because it sounds like a book that would be one of my
[23:21]favorite books for all the reasons. You know, fabulous. But, but not to, not to just
[23:29]fairage how to age just crazily, which is also fabulous. And, you know, now I'm a fan and I'm sure
[23:35]everybody who reads this book will be. And I think this is incredibly empowering for all of us
[23:40]as we age for people who are further along in aging. And for everyone who's like, why does
[23:47]does the fun have to stop? Like, let's just do this. Like, come on, let's keep having fun.
[23:54]And thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really, I've had a great fun chatting to you. Thank you.
[24:00]You too. Okay, take care, Claire. Bye. Bye-bye.
[24:05]Thanks for listening. To moms don't have time to read books. If you love it, please leave
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