New York Times bestselling author! T. J. Newman, WORST CASE SCENARIO
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[0:42]TJ Newman is back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss worst-case scenario, a novel.
[0:48]TJ Newman is a former bookseller and flight attendant whose first novel falling became a publishing sensation and debuted at number two on the New York Times Bestseller list.
[0:58]The book was named a best book of the year by USA Today, Esquire and Amazon, among many others,
[1:04]and has been published in more than 30 countries. The book will soon be a major motion picture from Universal Pictures.
[1:11]TJ lives in Phoenix, Arizona. Her second novel, Drowning, was released in May 2023 and became an instant New York Times Bestseller.
[1:19]Welcome to today. Thanks so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read books to discuss worst-case scenario.
[1:25]My pleasure. Thank you for having me on again.
[1:29]I haven't taken this book now on several flights and my kids are like, put that book down, remember?
[1:35]This one's cover. I always say the books are great to read on planes because it makes like
[1:41]a whole experience out of it. You've got the sides, the smells, the scene shaking with turbulence,
[1:47]it makes it like a Disneyland ride. But I do get the cover on this one. I would maybe take the dust jacket off.
[1:52]Well, it goes to the fact that I have been having trouble putting this book down
[2:00]because every time I pick it up and I was trying to explain this to my kids and I'm like,
[2:04]okay, imagine you're in the middle of a really great movie and then you keep having to
[2:08]pause it and only go back and watch for like five minutes. All you want to do is go back and watch it
[2:14]because that's what the book feels like. You're in the middle of watching this cinematic
[2:19]movie in your own head because it's so gripping. So that's how I feel.
[2:24]That's such an interesting way to describe it. I mean, people have told me that the book,
[2:28]you know, they can't put it down. And it is that sort of, you know,
[2:32]propulsive read, which is what I was aiming for, which is always great to hear, but no one's
[2:36]ever described it as like pausing a movie. That's such a good description. Yeah. Thank you for that.
[2:43]Now I feel okay. So tell listeners. This is now your third book. Tell everybody what it's about
[2:49]and and include the story that you tell in the book about interviewing all the pilots and how you
[2:53]came up with the idea. Awesome. Yeah. So when I was doing research from my first book falling,
[2:59]which takes place on a plane as does my second book drowning, I was a flight attendant for anybody
[3:04]who doesn't know. I did it for 10 years. That's how I wound up writing aviation thrillers.
[3:08]And when I was doing research for falling my first book, I would talk to pilots all the time
[3:15]about, you know, like, like the nuts and bolts of flying, like policies, procedures, you know,
[3:20]the craft of flying and aircraft, I would ask them questions. But I would also ask some questions
[3:25]about the psychological and emotional side of being a pilot. And the one question that I would
[3:32]ask every time I'd talk to a pilot was, what's your biggest fear as a pilot? What's your biggest
[3:37]fear? And the answer is kind of surprised me because they started getting fairly repetitive,
[3:44]fairly fast. There's a lot of similar fears. They fear wires getting caught up in power lines.
[3:48]I think that goes back to when they started flying, you know, with small airplanes.
[3:52]They fear decision making, making the wrong call in an emergency or freezing up and not being
[3:57]able to make any call at all. They think about their families and they worry about, you know,
[4:01]turning their spouses into widows and widowers. And like I said, the answers, they became
[4:08]fairly similar. There was a lot of the same stuff. Nothing really caught my eye until one day.
[4:14]I had a pilot who looked to me dead in the eye and said, my biggest fear is a commercial
[4:20]airliner crashing into a nuclear power plant. And I stopped and thought he was joking, honestly.
[4:28]So I started, I kind of like dismissed them and started saying, you know, all the reasons why
[4:33]I wasn't afraid of that. You know, it's like, we live in a post nine 11 world. They've,
[4:36]they've shown that these, these facilities are fortified and able to withstand, you know,
[4:42]an incident like that happening. This isn't real. They've shown us that this is, this is fine.
[4:47]And the whole time I'm talking, he's just listening to me and nodding. And when I finish,
[4:53]she goes, and that's exactly what they want you to think.
[4:58]And it was one of those like hair on the back of your neck stands on edge moments where you're like,
[5:03]oh, you just said that with a confidence that I'm not comfortable with. And so that was a moment
[5:10]years ago that the seed was planted. And when I went back to write this book, which
[5:17]I wanted to be big, I wanted to be as big as I could possibly get. I knew I had to go
[5:21]bigger than falling had to go bigger than drowning. How big could I get this?
[5:25]And I remembered that. And so I started researching to see, you know, was there any
[5:30]validity to what he said? Is there, is there, is there anything there? And it did not take long
[5:37]for me to, to discover that he knew exactly what he was talking about. And I have to tell you,
[5:46]is there be the research for this book terrified me? I mean, to the point that I almost
[5:52]didn't write the book because I was not sure I wanted to live in the world that I knew I was
[5:58]going to have to create for the time that it would take me to write this book. The research
[6:03]terrified me because the premise for this book is completely plausible.
[6:10]As I was reading it, I was like, okay, I know this all seems scientific and real,
[6:14]but I can't like read it and go about my day-to-day life believing that this could happen.
[6:19]So I'm going to put this back in the like things I'm not going to worry about category because
[6:23]I can't handle it. I'm going to go with it for the book, right? Because if you keep all these
[6:28]scary things, like too close to the surface, you you're like paralyzed. Sure. You know, it's a
[6:33]fascinating thing of being a human, right? Like horror movies are one of the most popular genre
[6:40]films out there, thrillers and mystery and true crime. We love it can't get enough. It's this
[6:46]weird balance of we love to be terrified yet also don't want to be. I think that it has something
[6:53]to do as humans that we like that sort of dress rehearsal. Like that's why I like the type of stories
[7:01]that I tell, which are all like I was a flight attendant. So I'm safety and security focused.
[7:06]As a flight attendant, I was trained to look at worst case scenarios, to look at something and go,
[7:11]what can go wrong and what am I going to do about it? Because that's a way to be prepared
[7:14]in case something does happen. And I think that we like to read and watch those sort of stories
[7:20]because it lets us get close to that fear and get comfortable with it and know ultimately that
[7:26]things are going to be okay. If you it's sound, the book sounds terrifying and it is and it genuinely
[7:31]is. But if you've read any of my books, you also know like I come from a place of hope and that
[7:36]there's always a way out and that, you know, I like writing survival stories and rescue missions and
[7:42]showing the best of us and how we meet a problem and fix it. And I'm no spoilers for the book. I'm
[7:48]not saying, you know, everything gets wrapped up. But that is the angle that which I come from it.
[7:54]And I think that that's how I sort of combat that fear. Because like I said in this book,
[7:58]I'm doing research and I'm reading, you know, government studies and I'm reading pieces by,
[8:04]you know, the former chair of the NRC. And they're laying out and no uncertain terms. Yeah,
[8:09]there are situations that if they come to pass would be out of traffic on a level that we do not
[8:16]have a solution for. And this is, you know, these are the officials that are saying this.
[8:21]Some of my research like it would be covered in highlighter and pen and then it would just stop
[8:26]end in the margins. I remember at one point, I just wrote, oh my God. Because it's just,
[8:32]it's, it's crazy. And these plants are in our backyards. They're right, they're right there.
[8:37]And now one just yesterday off to Google and now where they are because you also make a point that
[8:43]they're just in ordinary communities. And people just going about their business and maybe they think,
[8:48]you know, should we settle here? But usually they just, you know, it employs people on the village
[8:53]or the town or whatever. And it's just like part of life. And you just go about it with that
[8:59]suspension of disbelief in a way that like something bad could happen at any moment. But,
[9:04]but you really teach the reader. And I found this so fascinating all about like the canisters and
[9:10]the pool and the evaporate and like what should we do? And taking us through the scenarios and making
[9:15]cases for both. And as the people working in the power plant debate, how to handle each scenario
[9:20]with like the clock ticking and the president on the phone and all the things, we learn about,
[9:26]you know, the canisters and like seeing the one guy, oh my gosh, I mean, we learn, I learned so much
[9:32]that I never even understood about how the plants and the radioactive waste, all of it was taken
[9:39]care of and how risky it is. So risky. You and me both, I learned a lot too. And I think, you know,
[9:48]when I flew for 10 years and I've separate of my stories, I'm always interested and just
[9:53]flying. I'm a curious person like that. And I loved understanding how things work. And I got good
[10:00]asking pilots so many questions about flying in about the aircraft, which is an incredibly complex
[10:06]piece of machinery with all sorts of integrated systems that talk to each other that you can't
[10:12]learn how to fly a plane, you know, by reading an article on it or, you know, even being on a plane,
[10:18]you have to understand this. So I would have all these questions with pilots and they'd go
[10:22]through all these complex, very scientific, very technical, very, you know, everything about how
[10:26]this works. And I'd listen and then I'd say, okay, so basically the this to the that and then
[10:33]if you do this, it's like that. And then you'd be like, yeah, that's that. So I think I, through that,
[10:39]I got good at sort of looking at a really complex situation and going, okay, what is,
[10:45]what's the essence? But what is like the most important thing that if you can at least grasp that,
[10:51]then you'll be able to kind of fill in the rest of the blanks. And I think that
[10:56]helped me with my research for this book because boy, I didn't know much going into it either.
[11:01]And there's, it's a it's a huge, complex endeavor that's kind of incredible and fascinating and
[11:09]beautiful in a lot of ways. And I didn't mean to like overstress that this is about science and
[11:14]facts because really the book is about the people. And it's about their relationships and their
[11:20]innermost fears. And I think one of the biggest themes in the book is like, what is your allegiance
[11:26]to society at large versus to protect your own family? Like, how do you and how do you carry both of
[11:33]those things when you're trying to do something good, but it comes at a cost? Where is the line?
[11:39]And that is endlessly fascinating. That is such a good, good, good way to put it. What is your allegiance
[11:46]to? I mean, and it's an ethical dilemma that really doesn't have a clean answer. You know,
[11:52]we're talking about an event that could mean literally catastrophe for generations to come for
[11:58]this country and for the world because it's all interconnected. But at the same time,
[12:04]the people on the ground, the individual people, what about them? And if it's not about one
[12:09]individual, what is the whole? It's an ethical dilemma of, you know, it's a it's a trolley dilemma,
[12:15]which, you know, a trolley problem. What do what do you do? And it was fun to dig into that.
[12:21]And I in the book, there's not to give too much away, but there's, you know, the overarching problem
[12:27]of what do we do? We're facing a nuclear meltdown that could literally end life as we know it.
[12:33]We're also at the same time, there's a parallel storyline of a rescue mission of one person.
[12:39]And I think I did that for the reader and also for myself to remind us why we're fighting this
[12:49]hard. I think it's hard to grasp the totality of something as big as this could alter life as we
[12:55]know it for the planet. That's hard to grasp to a certain extent. And so I think I kept
[13:01]toggling back and forth between those two storylines to remind us again, like what what are we doing
[13:06]this for? If if we're not willing to work this hard and sacrifice this much for one life,
[13:12]then what is this? Because the whole is nothing but the individual. You had that great line when
[13:18]the firefighters are feeling very pulled. And one of them says like, I didn't become a firefighter
[13:23]to not save one person. Like they couldn't be in good conscious turn away. So yeah, I mean,
[13:29]there's that in like what's right in front of you versus what's conceptual. There's like that
[13:33]primacy effect and like immediacy of it. But then also the families of the firefighters and the
[13:40]families of the people in the plant and you know, particularly one boy and what happens and
[13:45]you know, it's one of those things I think about a lot and it came up, you know, even in the pandemic
[13:50]with all the people who are on the front lines, right? But they had their own families like
[13:55]but they had to go serve and and in the military and like how much sacrifice do you give
[14:01]and how much does your family even understand, especially young kids when that is what you're doing?
[14:06]Yeah, that you're you're completely and totally right. And that's I actually hadn't thought
[14:11]about it in terms of the pandemic, but flight attendants. That's my background. You know, we're
[14:17]first responders. We are first on the scene. You know, that's what we're on board for. We're not
[14:21]there for service. We're there for safety and security. And and that is what we're for. So my mind is kind of
[14:28]with that with this book, which was a departure from the first two. It wasn't I mean, it's not
[14:33]a spoiler to say that the plane crashes on the fifth page. So it's like this this book takes place
[14:39]not on the plane primarily, but in this community in this town. And I turn the focus to firefighters,
[14:46]first responders on the ground. And that's so interesting to think of the pandemic to think you're
[14:50]right. There were during that time, you know, I remember seeing, you know, pieces where where
[14:56]doctors would be renting a house or something and would go to work and then come home and not
[15:01]see their own family just because it was like, we didn't know, we didn't know anything. And they
[15:05]were willing to sacrifice put themselves out there every single day in front of this and not see
[15:11]their family and not bring it home to them. Like every single day, it's it's it's it's it's one thing
[15:17]to be a hero in a moment. It's another thing to make that what you do day and day out and every choice
[15:24]that you make. And notice, we're talking about doctors and nurses, right? We're talking about
[15:29]firefighters. We're not talking about Thor. We're not talking about Iron Man. You know, these are
[15:34]everyday people that do these heroic things. And I always love looking at that angle because
[15:45]that's us. That's who we are as people. And I saw every day on the plane in a million different
[15:49]little ways. And when I would sit on the plane and I look out at these ordinary people, these
[15:54]strangers that I was with that I knew nothing about. And I would think, you know, okay, if something
[15:58]goes sideways, what are we going to do? Who are these people going to become? Who's the hero? Who's
[16:03]the coward? Who's the comic relief? You know, and I love looking at the people that would encounter an
[16:11]issue and say, what would they do? And this this plane crash happens at a nuclear facility in a
[16:16]small rural town, you know, the type of location that doesn't get the same attention as a big
[16:22]market. You know, it's not New York City. It's not Los Angeles. It's not Chicago. This is, you know,
[16:28]rural Minnesota. How much attention is a nuclear power plant built in the 70s getting in rural
[16:34]Minnesota? Oh, my gosh. So you mentioned the need to go bigger with this book. Did you feel
[16:41]pressure writing it after being so successful? I mean, it's one thing to write, you know, as you
[16:46]did sort of in the galley ways on airplanes and all that. And then it becomes like a blockbuster,
[16:51]but then to have to do it again under your own shadow. What was that like? Yes, there's there's
[16:57]absolutely pressure there. I think anybody, no matter how successful or big or small or anything,
[17:04]if you're putting our own to the world, I think there's always going to be that pressure of how
[17:08]is this going to be received? What is this? What is this going to look like? What is this going to
[17:13]feel? And yes, I have been fortunate enough to have some big success. So yeah, I always feel like
[17:19]I have big shoes to fill that I've set down myself. But I have to say it was kind of I didn't
[17:25]feel the pressure on this one that I felt on drowning my second book. I think the pressure of a
[17:31]follow-up was so terrifying because it's like the question of like, can I do this? Was it a fluke?
[17:40]Am I a wonder? Was that just like I got lucky? I don't actually have what it takes to do this.
[17:47]I'm not actually a storyteller. You know, it was just a one-time thing that hit the right timing
[17:52]in the right moment. And when I think when drowning, I was able to prove to myself, which is the most
[17:59]important person you got to prove to of like, you can do this. Keep going. It's okay, it's
[18:04]always going to be scary. You're always going to feel pressure, but like you can do this. And so I
[18:09]think writing this one, I was able to let that pressure go, which was a weight lifted off of me that
[18:16]I'm so glad is gone. So this one, yeah, it was pressure, but it was different. It was more just I
[18:22]don't want to disappoint. I want to be able to keep delivering. I know that I can, but I want to keep
[18:28]doing it. That's awesome. Speaks well for all the other books to come. Did you already write
[18:34]your next one? Where are you on that? Working on that? I've got a few projects that I'm working on.
[18:39]You know, this book was an interesting departure. I kind of dip my toe in the water of, you know,
[18:45]like I said, can I do this if it's not on a plane? Is this something? Not only can I write stories
[18:53]like this if it's not set in the world of aviation and on a plane, but will the readers go with me?
[18:59]Is there any interest in this? And the response so far has been overwhelmingly positive that,
[19:04]yeah, they'll they'll go with me. And they'll they're along for the ride plane or not, which is
[19:10]which is great because I've got a million stories that take place in the world of aviation on planes
[19:16]because you're not a flight attendant for 10 years and only have a couple of good ideas like I've
[19:20]got a lot of ideas in that world, but I've got a lot also that aren't in that world. So we'll we'll see.
[19:28]We'll see. What is your update on screen adaptations and all of that? Yeah. So falling and drowning
[19:34]are both moving forward and that's very exciting. Following with universal pictures,
[19:38]I'm doing the adaptation for that. I'm writing the script, which has been the best learning
[19:46]experience imaginable and has completely changed me as a novelist, as completely changed me,
[19:54]as a novelist doing the work of taking this story that I wrote nearly 40 drafts to get to the
[19:59]point that it was finished.
[20:00]product. I knew this story backwards. I lived with these characters for years and I thought
[20:05]I'd figured out the best way to tell this story and then you go, okay, now how do you take this
[20:09]300-page book and turn it into a 100-page script and how do you translate everything in this
[20:15]book that's inside internal and translate it into a medium that is entirely visual. It has been
[20:23]the most amazing learning experience and it has forced me to become a relentless editor as
[20:31]I'm writing because like in a script, you have to trim all the fat away. Nothing's on the page
[20:38]unless it's the story and it forces you to look at every scene, every, every plot point,
[20:45]everything and go, is this actually necessary? Is this something that serves the story or if I take this out,
[20:52]will the story still be the same? And it just forces you to get a laser focus into story and it
[20:57]changed the way that I wrote this book that I wrote worst-case scenario because I just had a different
[21:03]angle because of that. So following is a great movement forward. Drowning is with Warner Brothers
[21:09]and we have Academy Award-nominated director of Captain Phillips in 1993. The second
[21:16]born movie called Greengrass Directing, which is wild and adapting that one is
[21:23]Steve Colvas of what his resume is insane but his most well-known credit is a little set of films,
[21:32]you know, the Harry Potter films. So yeah, just a little thing. I'm not sure if you've heard of
[21:37]this series called Harry Potter. So yeah, knowing that this guy who took one of the most, you know,
[21:45]iconic and well-known and well-loved literary universes and translated into a cinematic universe that
[21:54]is as equally loved, that are totally separate yet he managed to maintain the essence of what
[22:02]those books are in a way that's satisfied all the readers. Like that's an order so tall I can't even
[22:09]imagine and he just knocked it out of the park. So to know that that is the guy who's handling my
[22:14]story is just, it's very exciting. That's amazing. Oh my gosh. I mean, so many fun things. Aren't
[22:24]you just so excited? I am. There's a lot of fun stuff and it's like, you know, I don't talk about it
[22:30]every day obviously so when I have a conversation like this it's like, oh my god, look at this
[22:35]happening. It's just like a fresh reminder and it's just, it's wild. I'm so, I'm just so grateful.
[22:40]It's just insane. It's all just insane. Well, it's so deserved and I have to say this was my
[22:45]favorite of your books and I am, as you know, I mean, they're all good. They're just keeping
[22:50]getting better. I mean, it's not to say they weren't really great but like this, I don't know,
[22:54]this was, this is my favorite of them. Oh, it means a lot. I had to say a lot of people said that
[22:58]and I kind of surprised this made to tell you the truth. But this one, the emotional center
[23:04]in this one, the relationships in this one, I think they go a little deeper than the other two
[23:13]into that sort of very human, parental child. Yeah, I think they go deeper and that means a lot.
[23:19]Thank you. I think you have a lot of like the aftermath of loss in the moment, but like,
[23:26]and even in backstories of so many characters and families and it's, it's like a side
[23:33]character in the whole thing. I know they're facing imminent death, but, but there is a lot of real
[23:38]loss in the way it affects families and people and emotions and all that that courses through
[23:44]it that feels very, very authentic. That's such an interesting way to put that too, that it's like
[23:49]a presence, like a side character. That's really interesting. But yeah, it is, you know,
[23:54]past, when you're looking at your future, I think you can't help but confront your past too.
[24:00]And when this is with the interconnected community of a small place where everyone's got past,
[24:06]and, you know, that comes forward and wrestling with that. Yeah, yeah, this, this book,
[24:15]this was hard to write. I'm not going to lie. This book was really hard to write in emotionally.
[24:21]I think to dig into that and, and I think as a writer sort of standing on the precipice of,
[24:28]if this is it, if you're facing the end, what comes up? And I think it, it was tough to write.
[24:35]It was tough to write and, and I'm grateful that readers seem to be connecting with it in,
[24:42]in those kind of ways too. Yeah. Are there pieces of your past that you mind for this sort of
[24:48]of sadness, the way, like an actor thinks about something sad before he starts to cry?
[24:53]I think so. I think that I mean, like, I think as a writer, I don't know how to separate
[25:00]myself from what I write. You know, we always dig from the well of our own experience. So,
[25:06]yeah, there is, there's a lot of, there's a lot of me in this book. There's a lot of me in all my
[25:10]books, you know, and then the same way there's, it's none of me. It's the same thing. It's like,
[25:15]none of these characters are me and all of these characters are me. I think, you know, as a
[25:21]writer again, I don't know how you separate the two. So, yeah, this one, this one's intimate.
[25:27]I went through a lot of Kleenex boxes writing this one. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. No, no, it's in a good way.
[25:35]Like, look, this is what this is why, right? This is why we read is to going back to talking about
[25:40]scary things. It's like, this is how we have dress rehearsals for fear, for grief, for loss,
[25:49]for regret, for hope, for, you know, triumph, for bravery. Like, this is how we have dress rehearsals
[25:58]in a fictitious way of emotions that and real life. We may not want to touch. We may not want to go
[26:06]there. It may not be healthy for us to have a dress rehearsal of our own mortality and our loved
[26:11]ones mortality every day. That's not probably a place we want to live in. But to be able to go into it
[26:19]for a few hours, for a few days, you know, as you read a book or watch a movie, that's a healthy,
[26:26]I think it's good self-care. It's like emotional health, self-care of sort of putting those
[26:32]emotions on, but being able to take them off too. I don't know. I think you're right. What advice
[26:38]would you have for aspiring authors? Keep going. You know the stories that you have to tell and that
[26:46]you want to tell not only you can tell. Tell those. I, you know, it's fairly well known. My story
[26:56]is kind of out there that, you know, I was not handed this easily or quickly. I was an overnight
[27:03]success that took a couple decades to get there. And, you know, I faced a lot of rejection getting to
[27:08]this point. But I just knew, I knew in my bones that my first book falling would connect with
[27:16]people. If I could just find the right person to help me get it out there. And so I just didn't
[27:22]stop until I found that right person. And I think that writing such a uphill, excruciating, you know,
[27:31]thing to do, vulnerable thing to do, scary thing to do and trying to publish work as that to the
[27:38]end degree, you got to believe in it and you got to want it. If you're doing this and you do believe
[27:45]in it and you want it, I don't know, you're just masochistic and you just feel like self-punishment,
[27:49]you know, it could be that too. But I have a feeling it's probably more that you believe in
[27:54]this story too and that you believe that this should be out there. So just keep going. All you need
[27:59]is one yes and they're out there. Amen. TJ, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on and thank
[28:05]you for the edge of my seat entertainment. And I can't wait to do our event together at
[28:10]Civvie's bookshop. I know. I know. I'm so easy. August 26th. Yeah, August 26th, 6 p.m.
[28:18]Yeah, I'm 26, 6 p.m. So if anyone is listening, well, if you'll be in the LA area, at that time,
[28:24]come here and talk about even more stuff at Civvie's bookshop in Santa Monica. Thank you.
[28:29]Thank you. This is wonderful. Thank you.
[28:33]Thanks for listening to momstone have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review
[28:38]and follow us on social at Civvie Owens and at Civvie Readers.