A Natalie Portman Book Club Pick! Colombe Schneck, SWIMMING IN PARIS: A Life in Three Stories
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake,
[0:14]and created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow
[0:24]me on social at Zippy Owens or join the community at Zippy Readers.
[0:31]Kalam Shnek is the author of Swimming in Paris, a life in three stories.
[0:36]Kalam is a documentary film director, a journalist, and the author of 12 books of fiction and non-fiction.
[0:43]This book, Swimming in Paris, was the Bellatrist book club pick.
[0:47]She has received prizes from the Academy of Flosses, Madame Figaro,
[0:51]and the Société de Jean de Lette.
[0:54]The recipient of a scholarship from the Villa Medici and Rome,
[0:57]as well as a stand-all grant from the Institute Flosses.
[1:00]She was born and educated in Paris, where she still lives,
[1:03]and I bet I just impressed you with my French accent.
[1:06]Welcome, Kalam. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[1:10]Books to discuss Swimming in Paris, a life in three stories.
[1:14]Fromo!
[1:16]Merci muckus, thank you so much to...
[1:18]And where this book can to welcome me at your podcast. It's a great honor.
[1:22]Ah, de lien.
[1:25]I said, already, je pelle.
[1:26]Petit for de flosses, but I will not do that now because it is embarrassing.
[1:32]Anyway, Swimming in Paris, beautiful, beautiful book.
[1:36]Oh my gosh, I really, really enjoyed it.
[1:39]Tell listeners about the book, about the stories that you chose, and we'll just go from there.
[1:46]Thank you so much.
[1:47]Thank you.
[1:48]Tell us the inspiration for the book.
[1:50]You know, what's strange to write this book?
[1:53]Because sometimes, you know, you have a little project to think about it.
[1:57]And this time, I didn't think about it before.
[2:00]I had to write these stories.
[2:02]I didn't...
[2:03]And I wore them quite quickly.
[2:06]For instance, first story about the abortion I had on our 17.
[2:10]The day before I became to write it, I have no clue I would write about this,
[2:14]because I had an abortion maybe 30 years before, and I never told anyone.
[2:20]And because I read an interview with Anya Hano, the French Nobel Prize writer,
[2:27]she was talking in a interview about the way that women, when they have an abortion like me,
[2:33]they never said anything.
[2:35]And because of that, because they could shame, this freedom can disappear.
[2:40]And I felt that she was pointing a finger at me saying,
[2:45]you had an abortion when you were 17.
[2:47]Because of this law, you were able to fulfill your life, you wanted to hurt when
[2:51]be a student and trouble and work and be the mother when you were ready to be a mother.
[2:57]But you never acknowledge this abortion and this fight.
[3:03]And I said, well, I have to do something.
[3:06]And also, and write it and tell the world I had this abortion.
[3:10]And also, she published an account about the abortion she had in six years in France when
[3:17]was illegal.
[3:19]And she said when she published a book review of this and bookshop considers,
[3:23]this was a small book, this not just very important subject.
[3:27]And she thinks this is the contrary.
[3:30]This is the event of my life.
[3:32]It changed everything and I have to write about this.
[3:35]And for these two reasons, I came home, I sit in my bed, like I'm writing now,
[3:41]like I'm speaking to you today.
[3:42]And I begin to write for a few days, not stepping.
[3:45]And this is part of what the, the first 17 story.
[3:52]And let's talk about the first story for a minute, because it was very powerful.
[3:57]Not only did you write about your feelings, about what happened in the past, your
[4:02]relationship with the boy at the time.
[4:04]And this crazy scene, how you saw him at the reunion and like barely even talked,
[4:08]and you didn't even talk to him.
[4:09]And more than that, as well, was it was about your parents and about how you grew up and
[4:15]sort of this liberal French mecca of intelligentsia and, you know, no rules.
[4:23]And just the way you grew up as like a mini adult, right?
[4:27]Like nobody would, we would never like my kids are about to be 17, my twins.
[4:33]Like the idea that they were often about doing what you were doing is like,
[4:37]or if I wouldn't know, I'm kidding.
[4:38]I'm kidding.
[4:38]But to have all those grown up experiences, right?
[4:42]And all of that at such a young age and to make a decision and feel unsupported,
[4:47]particularly not unsupported, but your mother in particular just never spoke of it.
[4:53]Talk about that whole feeling and what it has meant to carry the secret with you for so long.
[4:59]Well, it's also all seen.
[5:02]The scene is five in 70s.
[5:05]In the middle of five, it's a very nice neighborhood, wonderful apartments.
[5:09]The decor is very, very nice.
[5:11]And my, both my parents were, I would say loving.
[5:16]And I felt at 17, I was the most freer woman girl of any civilization.
[5:24]And in, in how many cities, a girl of 17 can have sex and ask for a parents to have
[5:29]competitive.
[5:31]So I felt very much, I was very lucky.
[5:34]But in the backgrounds, there was something very dark.
[5:37]Very sad that my parents will never say anything about it.
[5:41]And it was surrounding me in silence.
[5:44]The fact that they were both Holocaust survivors, they had a hopeful childhood.
[5:50]And they were part of, for most part of the childhood, they had to be in hiding.
[5:55]And after the war, twice a month, nobody in the family would say what happened to the cousin,
[6:00]compounds, aren't would disappear.
[6:03]It didn't exist anymore.
[6:05]And I was raised in that silence.
[6:08]I can't not remember my mother catching me or gave me a kiss or tell me anything.
[6:15]She loved me.
[6:16]I'm sure I have no doubt.
[6:17]But she was like kept in the current where she was hiding at the other younger.
[6:23]So there was this 20 feeling of to be so lucky, to be, to be living in such a wonderful
[6:29]environment.
[6:30]And I felt that I have no way to complain to anything.
[6:36]I was so lucky.
[6:37]I was alive.
[6:38]I couldn't have lunch and dinner every day.
[6:40]I was, to this very nice school.
[6:43]And again, I couldn't have sex.
[6:44]You know, I couldn't have sex.
[6:47]And when I came back from this abortion, I remember my mother didn't say anything to me.
[6:51]She was in her home.
[6:54]And I understand years later that, you know, her cousin was sent to Auschwitz.
[7:04]She was a very small child.
[7:06]And not to have, there was a lot of guiltiness that we couldn't speak about.
[7:15]So this came in a clandestine way in my childhood.
[7:20]So this is a scene you have to understand.
[7:24]So your mother hid in a convent from when she was held to hell, you know?
[7:31]You never say, how long, you know?
[7:33]But what I know is in 1940, she was eight years old.
[7:38]And then she was kicked out of the world.
[7:41]She was Jewish.
[7:42]So there were no school anymore.
[7:45]She had to find a hide in a fake name.
[7:48]Her father lost her job.
[7:50]They have to leave their apartment in Paris, go to hide in a small town in France,
[7:54]and try to survive for five years.
[7:56]I feel like a mess.
[7:57]And this is for the same for my father.
[7:59]But during my childhood, I would never say anything about that.
[8:03]They would like a few little sentences, little fiction that I couldn't understand.
[8:08]There's something awkward I arrived with them.
[8:10]That's it.
[8:12]So how did, I mean, you don't discuss this directly in the book?
[8:15]It's through.
[8:15]Yeah, I think it's, you know, I think it's under this.
[8:19]Yeah.
[8:20]I wanted to be very precise about the socialical aspect of my childhood, going in Paris,
[8:26]in this neighborhood, the apartment, the decor, the kind of furniture we had,
[8:31]the kind of privilege we had.
[8:33]But I think this story is like, you know,
[8:36]it's, I think in every book you have a secret, something, you know,
[8:40]you don't really, it's there by it's not there.
[8:42]And you have to, and maybe the, the strength of the book is there.
[8:48]It's not, it was a nice little bourgeois girl going up in Paris.
[8:52]Of course, it's there.
[8:54]But it's something also more tragic.
[9:00]Oh, my goodness.
[9:01]Well, it was very powerful the way you talk about it,
[9:04]the way you talk about remembering the child when you have your children later in life
[9:11]and how old would the child be?
[9:13]And all, you know, all of the, how you think about it, you didn't think you would think about it,
[9:18]but it lingers and it's good to discuss it.
[9:22]Yes.
[9:22]You, I think we all have a tragedy in our life and the US where there's so many immigrants,
[9:28]you will all leave behind past language, story, gardens.
[9:35]And most of the time you set up a new life and you have to forget the past, you have to,
[9:41]and that's all we're there.
[9:43]Oh, I survived in us.
[9:45]Words, names, photography, and you, you, in many families, you just don't talk about it.
[9:52]I remember as a child, I was a big reader, I would do anything.
[9:56]And one of my favorite treating when I didn't have anything.
[10:00]to read anymore. I was reading the phone book. And I was reading for names and identity and addresses
[10:07]because no one in my family would say anything about them. They didn't exist anymore
[10:13]because there was too much shame, so much guiltiness to be still alive and there were not.
[10:19]And I think everyone can rely on that. Everyone in the family you have a drama,
[10:24]someone would disappear that you try to escape and you can never escape it from it. It's
[10:30]over there. And reading, or writing is a way to make peace with your past. Yes.
[10:38]I can also, when we go to the middle story, when you talk about your friend, it's another way
[10:43]into your family story where you juxtapose her living style, your living style, like what
[10:50]the differences are. And they don't seem so big. You look the same. You can are the same in many
[10:55]ways, but your backgrounds are so diametrically opposed. And how it feels to grow up so closely with
[11:01]someone and then to lose that love of your life. Tell me more about that. When you know that we don't
[11:08]talk about death, it's like in our societies, this is something that we try to figure that we're not
[11:16]going to die. And when we are close one, we're going to die. We're basic. Usually doctors would
[11:22]say to you, oh, we're doing anything. And the world doesn't never use directly. You in front,
[11:30]you say like that, that vitality is in danger. You have worse to escape to the real world, which is
[11:40]death. And when my child found a new she was sick and she was very sad and so when her
[11:46]explanation, she had cancer in every part of her body. She told me, you know, I'm going to die. But
[11:53]in the meantime, I'm going to do everything to live. I'm going to travel and to have sex and to
[12:00]and she was amazing. I remember maybe two weeks before she was going to die, we had dinner together
[12:07]in a cafe in Paris, a famous cafe when you have old writers and it's very life. And she had a
[12:13]boyfriend and she had an ex-husband and she was talking about all these two men of her life. Or she's
[12:19]love them both. And she was like still trying to make like a thing which one I have to go with. My
[12:27]ex-husband has still love. My boyfriend was so kind. And she noticed a man in the cafe and she's
[12:33]oh, this man looks so nice. And the man was looking at her. She was, he was flirting and she was
[12:38]still like, what do you think of this guy? He is cute. He's looking at me. What do you think? Do you
[12:44]know him? And she was like, she knew she had 10 days to live. But she was still thinking about love
[12:50]and sex. And I've found that amazing. But in the same time, we need to have this conversation about
[12:57]death. And I was very anxious. I was afraid to speak to her about her death. And to speak about
[13:04]her was aware to escape. It was in front of her and her adieu to the true life. And it's so difficult
[13:14]to speak to someone who is going to die and to say goodbye. I had this parents once. I didn't do
[13:22]that with my friend Louise. And I regret it because she wanted to. And she needed to. And I think
[13:29]because we never speak about death because there's been something savage, you know? We don't consider
[13:35]death. We always put it away. It's such a good idea. Another friend of mine, a writer, I really
[13:44]once she died, she wasn't too say goodbye to her or a friend. So I had not chose her to go and see
[13:51]her. I remember I was frightened and anxious. I was before getting in the room of the hospital.
[13:58]And she was very calm. She had a makeup. She had a very chic pajama. And she was a piece with
[14:06]her own death. And it was an incredible lesson of life. And you can say goodbye to me. She
[14:13]who graduated to me, you know, I would like to have a few more years with my husband. I really love.
[14:17]And I have another book to write. So I would like to listen soon. She was a piece
[14:23]herself like that. She was going to die. And what one of the greatest lives in my life, yes.
[14:29]How do you think she got there? And what did that look like? Because I think she had a very
[14:35]full-fledged life. She lived to the fullest like my friend Eloise until the end. She was
[14:43]traveling, loving, making experience, honoring everything she could. I think that this is a key,
[14:52]you know, experimenting and thinking about your own death. It's not something sad. It's something that
[14:59]makes you life more enjoyable and truly. So do you feel like after that experience,
[15:07]well, both of your friends? And I'm so sorry for your losses. I know how hard that is. Do you feel
[15:12]like you were then encouraged to live with more intention? Oh, yes. I have no doubt. Yes, very much.
[15:20]You know, I'm lying traveling to the US. And before taking my flight, I went to the cemetery
[15:27]and to see my friend, to be on that edge of town, telling her, I'm going to travel with you.
[15:33]And she loves going to the museum and exhibitions. She was an art lover. And so I'm going to
[15:38]the exhibition to the match with you. Did you bring the book? I didn't bring the book, but
[15:45]I thought about that. I went to another time to the cemetery to give her news about the book about her.
[15:54]It's so amazing how important it is to keep people alive, to remember them as people,
[16:03]not just how they died or how, you know, but just to, you know, reincarnate with our
[16:09]fingertips, right? It's magic, really. What people are dying, that we not come back, you know,
[16:17]for my past, quite long and four years, I was living, living in this kind of fiction,
[16:24]there will be, if I'm a nice girl, there will be back. And I was still just their daughter. And
[16:30]at one time, I actually like, the other day, I would not come back. And I'm an adult. I'm not
[16:36]their daughter anymore. What they told me and what they gave me is telling me, but I'm my own person,
[16:44]you know, I'm a friend of mine posted something. Can I read this poem from like the 1700s?
[16:52]Because I feel like it's so on topic for what we're discussing. My friend Gigi Lavangi lost her
[16:58]husband quite suddenly in his 50s. And she posted this poem this morning. Let me read it to you
[17:05]by Henry Scott Holland, who lived from 1847 to 1918. It's called Death is Nothing at All. It's
[17:12]shortened, don't read it. Death is nothing at all. It does not count. I have only slipped away into
[17:17]the next room. Nothing has happened. Everything remains exactly as it was. I am I and you are you.
[17:24]And the old life that we lived so fondly together is untouched, unchanged, whatever we were to each
[17:29]other that we are still. Call me by the old familiar name. Speak of me in the easy way,
[17:35]which you always used. Put no difference into your tone where no forced air of solemnity or sorrow.
[17:41]Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes that we enjoyed together. Place, smile, think of me,
[17:46]pray for me. Let my name be ever the household world word that it always was. Let it be spoken
[17:51]without an effort, without the ghost of a shadow upon it. Life means all that it ever meant.
[17:57]It is the same as it ever was. There is absolute and unbroken continuity. What is this death,
[18:03]but a negligible accident? Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight? I am but waiting
[18:08]for you for an interval, somewhere very near, just around the corner. All as well, nothing is hurt.
[18:16]Nothing is lost. One brief moment and all will be as it was before. How we shall laugh at the
[18:22]trouble of parting when we meet again. As a pastor, we didn't change. We have to
[18:29]a path that didn't change. It doesn't change. But life for today, for today, when we are close
[18:36]one at death, I think we have to accept it's different than not here anymore. They can be in a
[18:45]heart, but we have to face our loneliness. It's very cool, but we have to have another new life,
[18:53]meet new persons. It's cool. That is cool. The first story about abortion just poured out of
[19:07]you. What about the second and the third? Well, the second one, that was a book with
[19:13]permission of France and I was surprised by the success of it. I think it would be a small story,
[19:19]and one of every woman as an abortion in France, and it's the same as the US,
[19:27]one or two women as an abortion. My princess said, oh, why did you fight another story?
[19:33]Like an intimate story like that. At that time, I would love with someone. He was
[19:38]Carol, and they had some, and he was the same US mind, you know, this page in bourgeoisie,
[19:47]and like women were meant to be. So I told her, you know, I'm going to fight her,
[19:52]her love story, but it's going to be a nice love story. You know, generally when you wear it,
[19:56]we'd love to wear it both. It's the ending is sadder, is it something?
[20:00]who had some obstacles. And so this one said, I know, it's what's easy and wonderful.
[20:04]So I asked him, can I afford to story about us? He said, okay, no problem, you do anything with me.
[20:09]And so aside the contract was his work, I begin to write it. And then suddenly
[20:16]the love story broke. You know, it wasn't the same anymore. And I had to write it.
[20:24]And so I was going to go back to this wonderful past. We didn't exist anymore.
[20:29]So I went to write every day. And I was crying. It was very awful. But to save myself,
[20:39]I didn't know I didn't think I was. I went swimming because this man was a swimmer.
[20:44]And I remember one story, you know, you have a body too. And I was raised in this family
[20:51]where all education was over the mind to reduce and to have good education. And the body was
[20:56]something you have to, you know, take with you somewhere. But it was like not very smart. And you
[21:02]don't speak about it. And you don't speak about sport and sport was something for them people,
[21:06]you know, you do it only because you need to be in good shape. Because there were no
[21:11]interdignions in sport. And so it turned me the country. You probably smart. You will see it.
[21:18]It will give you a lot. And I was surprised. It didn't really believe him. But because I was in love,
[21:23]I would go sometimes to the swimming pool thing. So writing that to save myself, I went to swimming
[21:29]pool on my own. And I was so surprised that I would get all their life three times away. And a little
[21:38]by little, I'm a very interesting person. You know, I think too much. I think about katas with the other
[21:45]time. And I feel some, a piece of me. And I feel that my body was learning things to me,
[21:54]learning some tricks, gave me some help, helping me. I was so surprised. And so it became a story about
[22:02]swimming and about my body. You know, when you write, you have an idea. I'm going to write about
[22:08]abortion or about friendship or about love. But this is a project. And you're writing
[22:14]show you that you're going to get about something else. Anyway, you don't know. The writing
[22:19]leads you to another story to another explanation to another project. And you had no idea you were
[22:26]going to write about that. So I think I would write a story about love or what I would tell you about
[22:31]friendship. And I learned about writing a story about my body, about swimming, about death,
[22:38]about bourgeoisie, about something else. The abortion I think was about abortion. And finally,
[22:43]it was about the sentence of my mother. So everything, you know, you actually, you follow something
[22:49]and you have something else, something else. And it's quite wonderful. You know, to be able to
[22:56]accept that and to go to the past, the path was not explored. And you will learn. And to learn
[23:03]that I have a body and that a lot of trends in it, you know, I'm a woman and I'm small. I'm not
[23:10]young anymore. But one I'm in the lane of a swimming pool. I go much faster than many of the men
[23:16]would be shoulder. And it's quite, it's quite a joy to see them. Looking at me with supplies.
[23:26]It's a great thing. Call them. What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[23:32]I have many. You know, I've just heard about the clear message novel. I haven't read it, but I
[23:39]won't very much read it. I love her war. But for myself, I'm obsessed now is post. And I will tell
[23:49]you that because post is the one who tell you what you live in your life, your obsession, your failures,
[23:56]you're not alone to give them. Because it goes directly to the most hadn't part of your life.
[24:03]The thing you don't want to think about, you think you shame or and you explore them and you
[24:09]show them to you. And this was great humor. It's a very funny writer. So I would advise
[24:18]you to it post and you will be surprised that that's what you learn about your own life and your
[24:24]lowest one. That is a very French recommendation. And it's on brand for your books.
[24:32]So there we go. Well, Callum, thank you so much for your beautiful stories and for putting
[24:39]your heart on the page in such a unique voice. Thank you so much. I hope I see you soon. Okay,
[24:47]you too. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Two moms don't have time to read books. If you love
[24:55]it, please leave a review and follow us on social at Civi Owens and at Civi Readers.