Zibby Books author alert!! Mary Jones, THE GOODBYE PROCESS: Stories
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Mary Jones is the author of the good-by-process stories. And actually, this is published by ZiviBooks.
[0:38]I am thrilled this is our first and so far only short story collection, which was originally
[0:44]acquired by Lee Newman, who was my co-founder at ZiviBooks. And I think he will really enjoy the
[0:50]episode, getting to know Mary and how she became a short story writer. And I hope he will go pick it up.
[0:56]We have a really exciting collaboration with LA-based coffee shop brand Cafe Lux,
[1:02]and they made us our own distinctive brand of coffee for this book. So thank you to Cafe Lux.
[1:08]Go check it out. It's amazing.
[1:10]Mary Jones's stories and essays have appeared in many journals, including electric
[1:13]literatures recommended reading, sub-tropics, epic, Alaska quarterly review, Columbia Journal,
[1:19]the Hopkins review, gay mag, the normal school epiphany, cinematic review, brevity, and elsewhere.
[1:24]The recipient of a summer prose fellowship from the University of Arizona Poetry Center.
[1:29]Her work has been cited as notable in the best American essays and appeared in the best
[1:33]microfiction 2022. She holds an MFA from Bennington College and teaches fiction writing at UCLA
[1:39]Extension. Originally from Upstate New York, she lives in Los Angeles.
[1:42]Welcome, Mary. Thank you so much for coming on Momstone. Have time to read books to discuss
[1:47]the good-by-process stories. So exciting.
[1:51]Thank you for having me, Sibi. I'm so excited to be here. I'd listen all the time,
[1:55]so it's just such an honor to be a guest. Oh, well, it's an honor to have you as a guest,
[1:59]especially from publishing this book, and from our very first time reading it years ago,
[2:05]when was that? Like, two years ago or something? Yeah, 2022. Yeah, 2022. Well, it's so
[2:10]exciting to have witnessed evolution of this project, and hopefully you feel the same way
[2:14]out that you aren't just a witness, but now it's been such an exciting process. So, okay,
[2:20]for people who don't know anything about the good-by-process collection of short stories,
[2:25]tell them what they should know. Okay, the good-by-process is a short story collection where all of
[2:31]the stories are centered on a central theme of letting go and moving on. I'm from Upstate New York,
[2:37]and many of the stories take place there or have links to that location. So there's sort of a strong
[2:43]sense of place infused throughout. And in some cases, there are recurring characters that pop up.
[2:48]I think a lot of times when people think about loss, what comes to mind is the death of a loved
[2:54]one, but there are so many other losses that we go through in life, and so many other things
[2:59]that we have to let go of and say goodbye to. And I think for a lot of people, maybe their major
[3:04]loss event in their life doesn't even involve a death. There are things like, you know, divorce,
[3:08]or breakups, or loss of friendships, or emptiness, or loss of youth, loss of health, all these
[3:16]things are constantly coming up. And the stories in this collection explore all those different
[3:21]kinds of loss and how we survive them. Amazing. Well, that was beautifully said, love it.
[3:29]It's true. Sometimes I get very sad, even when my favorite lip gloss is discontinued, or,
[3:36]I mean, I know this is like the most minor, right? Obviously grief. Yes. There's a spectrum,
[3:40]right? It's this spectrum. But, you know, those emotions can be triggered by lots of
[3:47]sized things in your life. Right. Yeah, I know. We're always pumping up against different kinds of
[3:52]loss. You know, there's always like something that we're letting go of. And yeah, at this time of
[3:59]year, this will come out in the summer. But this is as school is wrapping up and saying goodbye
[4:05]to one kid's lower school. And all of that, you know, it's like, I know. It feels devastating
[4:09]at the time. You know, it is. As a parent, I think you're always, you know, there's always new
[4:14]things coming. But you're always letting go of like, who the child was at a certain stage,
[4:19]you know, and there is a little bit of a sense of loss. I think with that.
[4:23]So give listeners a sense of what some of the stories are about. What types of losses you write
[4:29]about? And and also where this came from. So why these stories, how did you know they were a
[4:36]collection as you were writing them? And how did you decide to aggregate them into this work?
[4:42]Okay. That was a lot of questions. So I didn't set out to write a book about loss. I think I had
[4:49]written probably about half of the stories when I realized that they all shared this theme. And
[4:54]then I knew that it was something that I wanted to explore more. And so I sort of wrote in that
[4:58]direction for the rest of the stories. And the stories vary in length from, you know, there's some
[5:04]that are very short. I like flash fiction. There's some that are maybe the only two pages. And then
[5:08]there's some that are, you know, 30 pages. And then also in style, some are very much realist. And
[5:14]some are, you know, a little bit weirder and a little surreal. And one story, a woman camps out
[5:19]on the porch of an ex lover who's barricaded himself inside the house and literally stays
[5:25]over one of the rest of her life. And in another story to preteen girls, one of their fathers
[5:32]has recently abandoned the family. And they end up in very grave danger when they are caught
[5:38]shoplifting. And in another story, a man hires a professional morner to help ensure that his wife's
[5:43]funeral is going to be a success. So over and over again in the collection, characters just kind of
[5:48]keep facing the ends of things. And, you know, it's an examination of sort of resilience and how we
[5:54]we process all those different losses that keep coming up. And so where did this place of loss
[6:00]come from you? Like where did it come from for you personally? You know, I think that by the time
[6:06]you're, you know, a little bit older, you kind of, I think everybody has experienced a good amount
[6:12]of loss of relationships and stuff. I think for me personally, I think, you know, my sort of
[6:18]journey with loss began when I was young. I lost my father unexpectedly when I was 15. And
[6:24]I think that sort of colored the way that I see the world and got me thinking about loss as a
[6:30]writer and as a teacher of writing. I, you know, tell students to try to find their material. Like
[6:36]what is the story only you can tell. And for me, I think when I sit down to write, these are kind
[6:42]of just the stories that come out of my unconscious. These are sort of this, I think this is just my
[6:46]material. I think I have had a good amount of loss in my life with health problems and, you know,
[6:53]other, other losses of other important relationships. And I think, you know, this is just sort
[6:58]of my material. That's a great way to say that. I feel like sometimes I don't even want it to be
[7:05]my material anymore. I'm like, can't I just see this? I know, I know. It's true. I'm so sorry about
[7:13]your dad. Did you have what happens? Can you ask her? He had actually, you know, it was sort of
[7:20]similar to, you know, the COVID situation. He, you know, had pneumonia and he had some complications
[7:27]that resulted in him being an offender later and, and then he passed away. Oh, yeah. Thanks.
[7:34]And when did you, is that when you started writing like at the time? Is that how you
[7:39]coped with that? Or did that precede it? I think, I think I always, from when I was, you know,
[7:43]like a really young little girl, I was writing little stories about my dog. And, you know,
[7:48]remember, there was some publication at our school every year. We'd make like a little,
[7:51]you know, a sort of little book. And I thought it was so exciting. I loved that more than anything.
[7:57]And I think I just kind of had a writer's sensibility. I was very, from a very young age concerned
[8:02]about big questions of life and death and, you know, sort of thinking about things that I think
[8:07]most little kids are not. I don't know why I was like that. And remember, like, you know,
[8:12]seeing leaves fall from the tree and just feeling sort of sad that they were just
[8:17]hanging and bringing them inside and like making them safe and warm. Like, I just had,
[8:21]that was like when I was probably like six or seven. So I think I was always sort of thinking
[8:25]like a writer. I just, you know, was thinking about things in a different way. And I continued
[8:30]to write throughout high school. You know, I was always writing a little story or I had a notebook
[8:35]with like poems that I would write. And then when I went to college, I didn't major in English.
[8:42]I sort of didn't think it was a realistic thing to pursue at the time. I majored in psychology.
[8:47]And I was sad. I'm sad. You did too. You did too. You did too. I'm a human nature.
[8:52]So I think it made sense, you know, and it ultimately helped me. But I just, by like a happy
[8:58]accident, ended up in a fiction writing workshop, I went to Syracuse University and Syracuse has
[9:03]a very rich literary history. I think some of the best short story writers of all time have taught
[9:08]there. And so it was kind of in the air a little bit. And I ended up in this fantastic fiction
[9:13]writing workshop. And that was where I fell in love with the short story form. And I discovered
[9:19]some of my favorite writers that I still read and teach and study to this day. And then,
[9:24]you know, after college, I lived in Boston for a while and worked in publishing. But it wasn't
[9:29]until I moved to LA and decided to get my master's degree in fiction writing that I really
[9:34]started to take it seriously. And from that point, I've been, you know, reading and writing and
[9:39]teaching and fiction writing has, you know, it's kind of become my life, which I know you can relate
[9:44]to. You know, it kind of just gets bigger and bigger. And tell me more about your teaching.
[9:50]What was the first class you ever taught? You know, I did this cool program. I went to
[9:55]Bennington College for my master's degree to work with my writing hero.
[10:00]me humble, I don't know if you've ever read her.
[10:02]I love her work so much and I was so lucky
[10:04]that I got to work with her and I just learned so much.
[10:07]And the Bennington program was amazing.
[10:09]There were so many great teachers there.
[10:11]But one thing they didn't offer
[10:12]that a lot of Master's program's offer is teaching experience
[10:16]because it was low residency.
[10:17]I went twice a year and stayed at Bennington
[10:21]and then the rest of the time it was just one-on-one
[10:23]mentorship with different writers.
[10:25]So after Bennington, I did this program through Antioch,
[10:28]University LA, which they had like a program
[10:31]in teaching creative writing.
[10:33]And they paired me with two writers in LA.
[10:37]So I got paired with Amy Bender and Jim Caruso,
[10:41]who I know you've heard about from Mary Otis.
[10:44]And so they sort of were both my teaching mentors.
[10:47]So I guess the first classes that I taught
[10:49]were I was sort of a student teacher in both of those classes.
[10:53]So it was this really cool class Amy Bender
[10:56]was running at USC.
[10:57]It was called The Writer in the Community,
[10:59]where she was teaching those students
[11:02]how to become writing teachers that the USC undergrads.
[11:06]And then Jim's class, Jim Caruso's class
[11:09]was a fiction writing workshop.
[11:12]So those were the first two I taught.
[11:13]And then after that I went on to teach it,
[11:16]Santa Monica College for a while.
[11:18]And I teach at UCLA Extension.
[11:20]So I have to say I took a writing class at UCLA Extension
[11:25]right when I graduated from college.
[11:27]Yeah.
[11:28]And now whenever we drive by when we're in LA,
[11:30]my husband Kyle jokes and is like, look, it's your alma mater.
[11:33]That's funny.
[11:35]It is not my, and also I think I dropped out of the class
[11:38]after writing one essay about buying my first bra
[11:41]or something ridiculous.
[11:42]It was like a personal essay writing class, but yeah.
[11:45]Those classes are fun because it usually
[11:48]is professionals in those classes working professionals
[11:51]who are sort of, it can be very advanced.
[11:53]The students that come through those classes,
[11:55]so it's exciting to work with them.
[11:58]I wish I could go back to what was that 1998 in group.
[12:02]Am I writing teacher was at that point?
[12:04]Oh, yeah, yeah.
[12:05]Lots of great teachers go through that program.
[12:08]So do you keep up with any of your students?
[12:11]You know, once in a while, I'll get a little update
[12:14]from a student.
[12:14]I don't really know, not beyond that, you know.
[12:18]Yeah.
[12:20]And I also, by the way, went to Bennington
[12:22]for summer program and fiction writing.
[12:23]Yeah.
[12:24]Oh, I didn't know that.
[12:24]That's awesome.
[12:25]A long time ago.
[12:26]I know.
[12:27]It's a beautiful campus.
[12:28]It is so beautiful.
[12:29]I was actually just looking for my kids,
[12:31]and they still have the program.
[12:32]I was like, wait a minute, this is what I did,
[12:34]and you can actually just still go.
[12:36]Yeah, it's cool.
[12:38]Yeah, it's a great environment.
[12:40]I love it there.
[12:40]Really beautiful.
[12:42]So tell me about the process of the good by process.
[12:46]When you write a short story, compare that,
[12:49]have you written full-length fiction?
[12:51]Like, have you written novels?
[12:52]And are they all in drawers?
[12:53]And is that like a thing?
[12:55]And then what is the process of attacking a project
[12:57]like that versus a short story?
[13:00]Or do you even know it's a short story at the beginning?
[13:02]You know, I kind of mainly see myself as a short story writer.
[13:06]So I haven't written novels.
[13:08]I do have a novel started, but it's a little bit slow going.
[13:12]But I think that probably the difference in the process
[13:15]between the two is, for me, at least,
[13:18]I don't know if this is the case for everybody,
[13:19]but I think something like an outline or knowing
[13:21]where you're going comes in a lot more handy
[13:24]with a longer project with a novel.
[13:26]For short stories, I like to just kind of start.
[13:29]I usually have some idea of what the story is or some moment
[13:33]that I'm writing about.
[13:35]And I like that mystery.
[13:37]I like not knowing where the story is going.
[13:39]Maybe I'll have some little idea,
[13:41]but it usually veers in another direction.
[13:43]And I like when that happens, I let it happen.
[13:45]And I like this saying, no surprise for the writer,
[13:48]no surprise for the reader.
[13:50]And so I love when I'm surprised by what happens in a story.
[13:54]So I think that's how they're different.
[13:55]And yeah, no, I don't have novels in the drawing.
[13:57]Mostly have concentrated to this point
[14:01]on writing short stories.
[14:03]So how do you know, I mean, this is going to sound stupid.
[14:06]But how do you know in a short story is over?
[14:08]If it can be two pages or 30 pages, is it obvious to you?
[14:12]Well, it usually, I sort of what I tell my students is
[14:17]and the story when you know what's going to happen next.
[14:20]So like kind of, you know, if you have something big happened
[14:23]in the story and it has changed the characters in some way
[14:27]and you kind of know where they're going from there,
[14:29]I don't think you need to see another beat at the story.
[14:32]If you kind of can tell where the story is most likely
[14:35]going to go and how the characters are changed,
[14:37]I think the story's done.
[14:38]For me personally, when I'm writing,
[14:40]I usually get the chills.
[14:42]Like I usually will get like a physical sensation
[14:44]when I hit the last line.
[14:46]And if I don't get it, I don't feel like the story's done.
[14:49]You know, I feel like, oh, you know,
[14:51]that story's not quite working.
[14:53]So I usually can't tell.
[14:54]I get a, you know, a chill.
[14:57]That's my answer.
[14:58]I love that.
[14:59]That's so cool.
[15:00]I've actually never heard anyone say that before.
[15:01]Really?
[15:02]Yeah.
[15:03]Yeah, I do.
[15:03]It's strange, but I usually do.
[15:06]Yeah, love it.
[15:07]When you're reading for fun now, do you read short stories
[15:11]or those you go to genre to read or know?
[15:14]Yes, I read almost exclusively short stories.
[15:18]I just, I love the short story form.
[15:20]I love the brevity.
[15:22]I love, you know, I love how you can see
[15:25]just this one little glimpse into a character's life
[15:27]and understand the whole thing.
[15:29]I think I have like a little bit of a short attention span.
[15:32]So I have it.
[15:34]I focus better on short stories,
[15:35]but I also just love the form.
[15:37]So I mostly read short stories,
[15:39]but I also read novels.
[15:41]You know, they're like, I love Miranda July.
[15:43]She just had a novel,
[15:45]all fours out and I read, you know,
[15:47]devoured that.
[15:48]I love that book.
[15:49]So I, you know, there's a mix,
[15:51]but mostly I'm, you know, attracted to short story collections.
[15:54]And what is your life like when you're not
[15:56]working on a short story?
[15:58]And teaching.
[15:59]That's a good question.
[16:01]You know, I'm teaching.
[16:02]I, you know, I do, I do spend a lot of time writing.
[16:05]I have a young daughter.
[16:07]And so I spend a lot of time with her.
[16:09]And, you know, tooling around LA,
[16:12]going on hikes, those kinds of things.
[16:15]I am not a hiker, I have to say.
[16:17]Are you not?
[16:18]Oh, there's so many beautiful hikes here.
[16:20]I know you're out here a lot too.
[16:22]I am, but the last time we started hiking
[16:25]and right as we were entering the trail,
[16:27]which I put up a fight even starting,
[16:30]we pass this man with this giant stick.
[16:31]And he's like, watch out for all the rattlers.
[16:34]Oh, I know.
[16:35]Okay, and I just like turned right around and walked out.
[16:38]Yeah.
[16:39]Oh, you can't worry about that.
[16:41]Oh, my gosh, I can worry about everything.
[16:43]Yeah, we find sort of easier hikes that are, you know,
[16:47]doable and, you know, not anything too treacherous.
[16:50]Yeah.
[16:51]Although there was one we went to in Malibu,
[16:54]I think last year where we were like, you know,
[16:58]walking over logs to get over like little streams
[17:01]and like, it's like this is beyond my skill level,
[17:04]but it was really fun.
[17:05]At the time it was kind of scary,
[17:07]but then, you know, we liked it.
[17:09]Looking back on it, it was fun.
[17:11]We got a little wet.
[17:13]Well, as we were just chit chatting about before recording,
[17:16]it's so exciting that you have a partnership for this book
[17:18]with Cafe Lux, who are those people who are not in LA.
[17:22]It's like, well, it would demean it to say it's like
[17:25]the Starbucks because that's everywhere,
[17:26]but these are like boutique, lovely coffee shops
[17:30]scattered throughout with the best chocolate chip cookies
[17:33]that I've had in LA, especially if you get them warmed
[17:35]up a little bit.
[17:36]So it's just so exciting that they are partnering
[17:38]with the goodbye process and custom coffee.
[17:42]I know.
[17:43]So it's a great stuff.
[17:43]So they have the goodbye blend a little bit.
[17:46]I got coffee.
[17:47]It's a very exciting, so exciting, so much fun.
[17:51]Oh, well, for those short attention spans,
[17:54]which is basically every single person on the planet
[17:57]these days, short stories are a perfect respite
[18:01]and great for, you know, like one little hammock ride
[18:04]in the summer, you know, I could just see.
[18:06]I know.
[18:07]Yeah, I like that too.
[18:09]It's nice that you could, you know,
[18:11]read a story from the beginning to the end and one sitting.
[18:14]Mm-hmm.
[18:15]Especially the two-pager.
[18:16]I mean, how come we not?
[18:17]Yeah.
[18:18]Thank you for making us feel enormously accomplished.
[18:21]Yeah.
[18:22]And how has, I know I can barely ask you about publishing
[18:25]since I am your publisher, but how has the publishing been
[18:28]relative to what you thought it would be?
[18:30]It's been great.
[18:31]It's been, you know, it's a fun process.
[18:33]It's, you know, going through all the edits and everything.
[18:37]It's been, it's been a lot of fun.
[18:39]I've had a really good experience.
[18:40]Okay. Well, you don't have to tell me, do you think?
[18:43]No, no, I really have.
[18:44]And, you know, and you've been so wonderful.
[18:46]I know it's amazing to be out hands-on.
[18:49]You are with this whole thing.
[18:51]And I've, you know, come to you personally
[18:53]with a couple of things.
[18:54]And it's amazing that you're, you know,
[18:56]all the different things you do.
[18:57]I don't know how you do it.
[18:58]Oh, thank you.
[19:00]I'm great.
[19:01]Sitting here listening to you being like,
[19:02]I'm clearly never going to write my next book
[19:04]is what's going on here.
[19:05]I know.
[19:06]I just follow your Instagram.
[19:08]So I see that you're like,
[19:09]deadline is looming.
[19:11]Oh, I don't know how I would do with like a looming deadline
[19:13]like that with unwritten material.
[19:15]I think it would be really scary.
[19:17]Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[19:18]Yeah.
[19:20]So I'm kind of jealous of you as you have this completed, you know.
[19:22]Yeah.
[19:23]Yeah.
[19:24]So what, what do you think is next for you?
[19:27]What is coming up?
[19:28]Well, like I said, I have, you know,
[19:29]I do have a novel, you know, started,
[19:32]and it exists somewhere on my computer.
[19:34]Oh, well, I'll dig that up.
[19:36]At some point, I've been busy with this right now,
[19:38]but then I'm also working at another short story collection.
[19:41]That's a little bit more closely linked,
[19:43]following the same characters.
[19:44]So it's more of a novel in stories.
[19:46]Mm-hmm.
[19:47]So those are two things that I'm, you know,
[19:50]working on right now.
[19:51]So I'm working on it.
[19:52]I'm working on it now.
[19:54]And do you, do you have advice for aspiring authors?
[19:58]Yeah, I guess my, you know,
[20:00]practical advice is to just to get in the chair every day
[20:05]and have some kind of routine,
[20:07]whether it's writing 200 words a day or two hours a day
[20:12]or even 10 minutes a day.
[20:14]Anything, whatever routine you can have,
[20:15]I think that really helps, whatever you can make time for.
[20:19]And then unlike a more personal note,
[20:21]something that helps me is lying
[20:23]from a Raymond Carver poem that I really like.
[20:26]It's the poem is called Sunday Night.
[20:29]It's a really short poem,
[20:30]but the first sign is like make use of the things around you.
[20:33]And then he lists like a few different things,
[20:35]like this woman bumping, drunkenly in the kitchen,
[20:38]the sound of the light rain, the Ferrari in my head.
[20:40]And then it's like put it all in, make use.
[20:43]And for a while I had as my wallpaper on my phone,
[20:46]make use and it pulls to a reminder to me
[20:48]to keep my eyes and ears open and pay attention
[20:51]to everything that's going on around me.
[20:53]Like what is, what sounds am I hearing?
[20:55]What do I see?
[20:57]What, you know, what am I thinking about?
[20:59]All these different things I think make fiction writing come alive.
[21:03]So I guess my advice is to stay open for business,
[21:06]you know, keep, even when you're not writing,
[21:08]you can be writing.
[21:09]Mm-hmm.
[21:11]Yeah, I like that.
[21:12]Mm-hmm.
[21:15]Okay, and because it's the summer as this book comes out,
[21:18]what is your favorite, what is my favorite summer activities
[21:21]that you're gonna only do in the summer,
[21:22]which is hard to ask for someone in LA, but still.
[21:25]Yeah.
[21:26]You know, I like swimming.
[21:27]I like hiking, like I said.
[21:28]I really like nature or like getting outside.
[21:32]I love the ocean.
[21:33]So, you know, we go to the beach a lot.
[21:35]You know, the usual summer things, I think.
[21:38]Love it.
[21:39]Mary, thank you so much.
[21:41]Again, so excited.
[21:42]Actually, now that I'm looking at the cover again,
[21:44]which for people listening is like an old fashioned coffee pot
[21:49]and two little cups, I feel like I need to now find
[21:52]a coffee pot that looks like this.
[21:54]I have lunch.
[21:55]You do, actually.
[21:57]Yes, there's a coffee pot.
[21:57]So how it came, is that how we got it?
[21:59]Oh, but, is that how this cover came to be?
[22:02]No, no, I didn't, I, this was just an amorphin design,
[22:05]the cover and she, and somebody bought it from me as a gift.
[22:09]Like, oh, this is a coffee pot on your, on your book.
[22:12]And it's cute.
[22:13]And it's a, it's Italian.
[22:14]I think it's based on an Italian coffee pot.
[22:16]So, I guess it's a cute little,
[22:18]it's like a little espresso pot, I think.
[22:20]Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for cute.
[22:22]Okay, well, this is also, by the way,
[22:24]a perfect sort of house guest gift
[22:26]with a fresh pack of coffee or, you know,
[22:29]I feel like this would be something so nice
[22:31]just to stick in a, stick in it,
[22:33]especially since sometimes guests never leave.
[22:35]This would be a good, a real, yeah, yeah, anyway.
[22:40]That's a nice idea.
[22:41]Yeah, that's a nice idea.
[22:42]Get it for the next, next house you stay up, anyway.
[22:47]Okay, congratulations, Mary.
[22:49]Thanks, Debbie, and thank you so much for everything
[22:51]you've done to make this happen
[22:52]and for the wonderful community you've created,
[22:55]I feel so grateful to be a part of it.
[22:57]And it's just, it's, it's been awesome.
[22:59]Thank you.
[23:00]Yay, happy to hear you say that.
[23:02]Haha.
[23:04]Thanks for listening to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[23:07]If you love it, please leave a review.
[23:09]And follow us on social at city Owens and at city readers.