National Book Award finalist! Julia Phillips, BEAR
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zippy Owens or join the community at ZippyReaders. Julia Phillips is the author of Bear,
[0:33]a novel. Julia is also the author of Disappearing Earth, which was a finalist for the National Book Award
[0:39]and one of the New York Times book reviews 10 best books of the year. I interviewed her about that
[0:44]book years ago. Julia's work has been translated into 26 languages. A 2024 Guggenheim Fellow,
[0:50]she is written for the New York Times, The Atlantic, and the Paris Review. She is on the board
[0:54]of the Crime Victims Treatment Center, a nonprofit that helps people heal from violence.
[0:59]She teaches at the Randolph College MFA program and lives with her family in Brooklyn.
[1:04]Welcome, Julia. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Bear.
[1:08]Congratulations. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
[1:12]I have already been talking about this book so much. I keep bringing it up. I don't even know.
[1:16]It's in my head. You've like totally your characters, all of it. I keep referencing
[1:21]how cool the setting is and just all of it. I don't know. I feel like in the last three
[1:25]book events I've done. I'm like, but I'm reading this book there. So I'm so excited. I think bears
[1:32]are very hot right now. So it's very topical. I think it could be excitedly talking about bears,
[1:38]which I always have. So yeah. You're on trend. I've been waiting my whole life for that moment.
[1:46]I should send you the pictures of when my family, we went to like a motel. We took this crazy trip
[1:53]upstate and there were bears in the at like by the pool and we had to like, oh my gosh,
[1:58]a mother bear and her two cubs. Yeah. I'll send you if you care. I would love to see them.
[2:03]Are you kidding? Of course I care. I'm like, I want to see these bears and these bikinis by the
[2:08]swimming pool. I see those. It was like out of a movie. They were like three feet away and like,
[2:14]oh my gosh. It's in that dumpster. And then it's a loud noise. And I'm thinking, is that going to
[2:20]be like a raccoon? And then all of a sudden, the bears like head popped up and I like grabbed
[2:25]my kids by the back of their shirts. And I was like, oh my gosh. I'm marking a lot. Like,
[2:32]went into the room and like tried to lock to the door and I was like, oh my gosh.
[2:38]It's been my own dog behind me after telling that story. But anyway, I think your dog is ready
[2:42]to protect you now. I think as your dog hears what's going on. I'm here. Yeah. Anyway, I feel like I
[2:49]can speak with authority about bears after absolutely. Okay, tell listeners what bears about.
[2:57]It is about two sisters who live in a beautiful place called San Juan Island off the coast of
[3:01]Washington state. And they have a certain plan for how their future will go. They've really
[3:06]been struggling to make ends meet there. And they have had this plan to get off the island.
[3:11]And then their plans change when a bear shows up at their front door. And one sister feels
[3:16]really drawn to this animal. The other sister feels really afraid of it. And this
[3:21]who changes the course of their lives. Well, the family dynamics between the two sisters and the
[3:28]mom who's, you know, not doing well in the beginning and progressively gets worse and worse and
[3:34]all that. Having a character who works in the snack bar of a fairy is so genius. Like, it's so
[3:42]perfect on so many levels. Right. That all the characters that she encounters and just the ups and
[3:49]downs and the trend and how much he hates it honestly and how trapped she feels that she just
[3:55]goes back and forth. It's like the ultimate. It's just so it's so good. How did you think of that?
[4:01]I really loved that setting up a fairy so that island is accessible only by fairy or I guess by,
[4:07]you know, their plan is if you're very fancy, which these characters are not, but their lives are
[4:13]really ruled by the fairy. And so working on the fairy felt so natural, they're right and also
[4:19]such a great way for their readers is for the private entry point into this world. Like,
[4:23]rules that define how you get there, how it's functions, when you're delayed, how much
[4:30]weather affects you, how much schedule affects you. And Sam, the main character has this particular
[4:36]position there. As you said, she's not really a state fairies employee. She looks like food services.
[4:45]So she has this job in this essential place, but she is not like, she doesn't have a pension,
[4:51]she doesn't have state benefits. She's not sort of in the system that makes working on the
[4:55]fairy. Great. She's in the system that is elementary to that. And they think that position
[5:01]is very, by the way, the amount of sirens behind me is. It will probably come here. I'm
[5:08]okay, fantastic. It's going to go from me to you. I know. I feel like the city is like, yeah,
[5:13]we're like in bus line. But yeah, she does not like the position that she's in at her job.
[5:20]And it's sort of fitting or it speaks to the many different ways in her life. She feels like
[5:26]secondary or not as much as she wants. She's a dreamer and a fantasizer. And she has an ambition
[5:36]of living a different life, but she has not been able to access it. I think her job supports that.
[5:41]Yes. The whole family feels just so stuck. I mean, the girls had made this plan. They wanted to
[5:48]get off the island. And then their mom was second. So they had to stay. And they just felt it
[5:55]just feels so they're just so unhappy in a way. They're okay. But they're, you know, it's
[6:01]caretaking and just getting through the day. And the way that you show all the challenges. And
[6:09]when little things happen or the bills for the doctor or just like when each thing happens and
[6:14]how they're pandemic affected them financially, like the portrait of a struggling family just trying
[6:20]to adapt to the continuous obstacles thrown by the universe. It's just so well drawn. And then of
[6:28]course the introduction of the bear on top of everything. Tell me about just crafting the family
[6:34]and the sisters and the mom. And, you know, the mom, of course, had this horrible, you know,
[6:40]work related, you know, demise of her lungs and everything. You could just feel. It's almost like
[6:46]the whole family has the air being taken out of them. You know, it's not just the mom. Yeah. Yeah.
[6:51]I love the way you put that. I started writing this during after a year of being very stuck in my
[6:57]own life. I started writing it in 2021 after, you know, pretty challenging 2020. I'm sure I'm not
[7:04]alone in that. And I just sort of paired experience where right as the pandemic began. And I was
[7:11]here in New York. I also had my first kid and that like twin experience was was very difficult.
[7:19]I would not recommend having a baby in a lockdown pandemic lockdown. And I think the kind of
[7:26]darkness I felt the collision with all these systems that all of us were having that I was
[7:31]having in my own life through the through like, you know, you're pregnant, you have a baby,
[7:36]all of a sudden you're like in this prolonged conversation with health insurance and the healthcare
[7:41]system and the medical establishments and then also total lack of social services, total lack of
[7:48]childcare, total lack of maternity leave that is or a friend to leave that is like comprehensive
[7:55]supportive. I think all of those experienced were really influential and shaping this family and
[8:02]shaping those characters. So they have been dealing with healthcare insurance, the medical
[8:10]establishment, lack of social services for more than a decade now and through because of their
[8:16]mom's illness. And they have really not, their day-to-day has been really challenging. And they're
[8:23]managing that challenge. It's been very, very challenging for them. And I want to this book to
[8:29]explore that. I want to explore that in the dynamic. Like they love each other so much they're there
[8:33]for each other. All three of them live together. These two adult daughters and their mother. And
[8:37]they I think like love. There's no question that they're going to be each other's supporters,
[8:42]you know, like they are going to be there for each other and where there are cracks in the
[8:47]system that they're falling through. They're going to try to, they're best to provide a safety
[8:50]net for each other individually. But that task is overwhelming and really, really difficult.
[8:57]And they have managed it as best they can. And it's still really well. I want to tell like
[9:04]really explore that. How that shapes their relationships with each other. How that shapes their
[9:08]lives into this place and to their work and to their life and to their neighbors. And how that of
[9:13]course influences how they react when all of a sudden something changes or the dynamic is different
[9:19]because of this kind of beast that shows up. Yeah. And let's go back. Let's go to the beast for
[9:24]a moment here. I always want to talk about the beast. Yeah. So I read about your sort of lifelong
[9:30]fascination and grim fairy tales and all of that. But we're talk more about how the bear became
[9:36]the thing. I think the bear is kind of always the thing for me. I think I and my first book,
[9:42]which was also my last book, you know, that the only other book I've come out,
[9:45]I put a bear in there. I love a bear. I do love to like think and talk about bears. And this
[9:51]the roots of this story, roots of this novel are found out on a different places. But one very direct
[10:00]inspiration is this Grimm's fairy tale called Snow White and Rose Red, and it's about these two
[10:05]sisters who live in this cottage with their mother quite isolated and then a bear comes to their
[10:10]door. And when the fairy tale the bear is this turns out to be the enchanted prince, they like
[10:14]sort of have these foibles and adventures, they find a bunch of jewels, it's a very different
[10:20]structure than the story is. And I love this fairy tale as a kid and I found it so perverse
[10:26]I would say and strange and compelling the way these sisters reacted to this animal. And
[10:33]it always stuck in my mind. But as a kid I would try to rewrite it and not find a way to do that.
[10:39]And I think this was my biggest attempt yet. And it was the one that left me feeling the most
[10:44]satisfied. I have these sisters, a bear shows up at their door just like this, you know, long ago
[10:51]inspiration. It was never going to be a different animal for me. It was both because of the fairy tale
[10:55]because of my own love of bears. It was never going to be like, you know, a moose or a lion.
[11:01]And then what happens next? And is it a little perverse and is it compelling? I hope I mean,
[11:06]my fingers are crossed. Yes. I think it is. You've had so much early enthusiasm for the book too.
[11:14]I mean, it's, you know, it's just, it's, you know, sometimes when I feel like there's buzz around
[11:20]the book, I'm like, could it really be that good? Do you know what I mean? You know, like not just yours.
[11:24]I mean, general like what I know, I know what you mean. And then you read it and you're like,
[11:28]oh, it is really good. You know, and that's always such relief. I love that. I think you're in
[11:34]a place for you here, the buzz. I feel that the, but my experience often is just like sitting alone in
[11:42]not knowing what it's supposed to be not. So I'm glad to write this time. There's a lot of
[11:50]some scientific stuff here. And then you even have somebody like from the science department who's
[11:54]tracking everything. And you know, where did all that come from? Do you have to research? Did you
[11:58]research for this? Did you research for the last one? Absolutely. Yes. Definitely a lot of research.
[12:03]I mean, the way that the, the way that the bear behaves in this book, the book is rooted in
[12:09]the fairy tale, but it's not meant to feel anything but like hyper realistic in a way that I
[12:15]wanted to feel very, very, very, very grounded. And to me, that is sort of the most appealing part
[12:21]of fairy tales, the way they would give you all these details and you would say, what is this
[12:25]weird world? I want this to be the same way to give a lot of details and feel like what's this
[12:30]weird world. So the way that the bear behaves in the book is, I would say at the extreme end of
[12:36]what's possible, it's not at all, it's not like unrealistic, but it's unlikely that the bear
[12:44]would behave this way. The way that the sisters behave is also unlikely and I would say unwise
[12:50]and there are characters around them who say, you know, this is not how one should engage with this
[12:57]animal. And, and like, it's very much on them, the way they are reacting to it, the way they are
[13:05]engaging it is shaping its behavior and kind of amplifying the, they're engaging like a feedback
[13:11]loop with this animal that is making the state tire and more difficult and more dangerous,
[13:17]which is fabulous for a narrative, but not good bears behavior. So I really love having this
[13:24]character from the wildlife department, having a providing kind of check, a reality check,
[13:30]and a chance for us to see like, this is the outside world, this is what, this is what like someone
[13:35]who knows what they're doing, right? How would react, how what they would say, but yeah, that is not
[13:40]how the sisters behave. They do not, they do not listen to that good advice for sure.
[13:45]So you had a baby during lockdown, you had another baby I saw about a year ago.
[13:51]And you have an unsocial and picture of yourself, like vomiting from pregnancy with your
[13:57]son, sort of, you know, looking on with such concerned care, it's so sweet. It's very supportive.
[14:03]Oh my gosh. So, you know, having, I mean, I have four kids, it is those, you're in it, right? You're
[14:10]in the weeds. How are you pulling this off? You're still writing beautiful fiction. When and
[14:16]how are you doing this? Like, do you not feel that your brain, like, I felt like my brain was
[14:21]mush for so long for years, you know? For years? Yeah, totally. Totally. But and yet you're doing
[14:27]this. I mean, it's amazing. So tell me about how you were able to do this. After my first kid was born,
[14:34]I like, my brain was in the show at the end of pregnancy. I just like watched it go and have
[14:39]a tea test kitchen all day long. And that's all I did. You know, this was like spring 2020 at this point.
[14:44]I was just asked if he was born. I really thought about a fortune anxiety and it was,
[14:52]again, like, you know, I get to pick this with June 2020 that he was born, right? And New York City,
[14:57]like this was not a great time in the world. It's not a great time in the name of this life.
[15:04]It certainly was not a great time in life. And the idea of writing or enjoying myself or having fun
[15:11]seemed really far away from what I was doing. I felt like my priority for a more than a year was just
[15:18]like safe, safe. Keep everything as simple as possible. Don't disrupt anything. So it's a
[15:24]great thing to go outside. Like the idea of even, I don't know, traveling in my imagination was
[15:29]daunting. I felt so far from the person I was. I think those circumstances were extreme. And it ended
[15:39]writing this book ended up being the real return to like, okay, maybe I'm not going outside.
[15:46]But I can imagine going outside or maybe I feel stuck. But I can imagine someone else who feels
[15:52]stuck. It was like the first bit of getting to edge a little bit away for myself or a little bit
[15:58]away from my own experience or a little bit away from all of the things I was afraid of towards
[16:02]something that could be exciting and be different. And it ended up being so dare I say healing
[16:08]just to imagine and play pretend and write down a story that was so different from anything I
[16:14]never written before, but so fun and so exciting. I think that the extremity of that,
[16:24]if that's an applicable word in this instance, I think how extreme that feeling was at the time,
[16:31]helped me a lot when the second kid was born. Because when the second kid was born, I was like,
[16:35]oh my god, we can do things and people can come over and someone else can hold the baby when
[16:40]you're tired. And breathing air is not going to kill you. And it just felt such, it was a relatively
[16:48]fashion easier transition. And I was at that point, you know, already in edits for this project.
[16:55]I was like, this is fun. This is delightful. I didn't feel any more than that disconnection
[17:00]from the person I'd been. It felt like a smoother thing. Did you four kids, your last two are
[17:06]twins? First two are twins. First two are twins. Okay, after I'm not talking about extreme
[17:10]circumstances, I have to imagine that was a pretty extreme entry into bird. Yeah, that's true.
[17:16]That's why I can't imagine, you know, doing this. Well, I mean, I did not have twins. I did not have
[17:22]to, like, did it get easier with each head or each birth or was it just a reentry? And so
[17:28]variable for every kid, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I had six years in between the twins in my next
[17:33]kid. So that's interesting. When I had one kid, I was like, oh my gosh, this is like a walk and
[17:40]she was such an easy baby. So I was like, oh my god, people experience life this way. You know,
[17:46]like, I was like, Oh, it's me this last time around. Yeah, totally. It's amazing. Like,
[17:50]it's amazing for me. I would have more kids all the time. You know, she's doing this. I was like,
[17:57]I have a million kids, which I can't have a really kids, but like, relatively,
[18:01]yeah, easy. But I wouldn't have known how easy it was. So I was very grateful for that.
[18:06]You know, that's how it looks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. But of course, yeah. So are you like,
[18:13]if this were in an English class, right, in 10 years or 20 years and people are like,
[18:17]okay, like, what do we think the significance of the bear is in these women's life? Like,
[18:22]how should we read into this? Like, what is your answer to that?
[18:27]I think the bear is just the bear. Like, from the writer standpoint, the bear is a bear.
[18:30]It's an animal that showed up. It's just an animal. And I don't think it. It's not a symbol. It's like,
[18:35]an animal has fur breeds. It takes fit from their sidewalk. You know, it was lovely. Thank you for this.
[18:40]Thank you for this.
[18:44]I think the way that they see it, I think both sisters react to it as like, this is a visitation
[18:52]from another world. Sort of like, this is something, I think that Elena, the older sister,
[18:58]who's really drawn to this animal, feels like, well, this is, I've been working so hard for so long.
[19:05]I have been really like, I have to just go through day by day and like, don't think about what's
[19:13]coming next. Don't lose track of it. Like, I just really have to hold on briefly as tightly as I can
[19:18]to my responsibilities, to my tasks, to like, just getting through the next moment.
[19:23]And I think to her, the bear is almost like, it's such a joy. It's a reward. It's, it's a kind of
[19:30]way of escaping the life she's been living and have this ecstatic transcendent experience
[19:36]to be able to be close to something that's so different, so magnificent, like an majestic,
[19:42]I think really, yeah, it's a gift for her. The same, her younger sister's reaction is very
[19:48]different. I think Sam sees like, here is the, it is like a disruption that's going to ruin us.
[19:54]You know, this is the dangerous thing that shows up from the outside that is driving a wedge.
[20:00]between us that is actually quite literally very dangerous to us physically doing, you know,
[20:06]dangerous to our lives. And it's just messing everything up. We had a certain way of thinking
[20:12]and this is destroying that. The reaction that Sam has to the bear is, she sees it like as a
[20:18]malevolent force, I think. Which I would say it is not. It is a bear. But, you know, it is
[20:25]it is threatening. Well, I'll peek in on some of those classes in 10 years because I don't
[20:30]think that's what they're going to take. If they're reading it in English classes in 10 years,
[20:34]what I'll actually say is, what are you doing? No, this book that's all full of bear poop and
[20:39]persons and maybe they won't, but I think they might. Maybe, maybe, maybe, I'm in the
[20:44]probably not, not, not unlike the middle school level, I think. No, no, I'm taking high school on this,
[20:48]like 11th grade, I can say 11th grade. I can say 11th grade. What is your next project?
[20:55]I'm working on another project that is, again, about women and violence and isolation. I think
[21:00]those are the subjects that I would like to think about. It's set on Cape Cod, which I'm very,
[21:06]very excited about because my husband grew up, was born and raised on the Cape and my in-law
[21:12]still lived there. And I had a high before I met him when I was a child, a child bride here. I was
[21:19]20 when we met. I did not know what, I thought the Cape Cod was the Kennedys, you know, and I didn't
[21:24]know what it was like to live there year round. I really didn't understand their people who
[21:29]do live there year round. I didn't understand the, the particular demands of this particular
[21:34]place. And I think who, him, not really interested in a setting that is isolated. What, what does
[21:41]that, I grew up feeling very stuck in suburban New Jersey, but it wasn't until I got to the Cape,
[21:47]but I was like, oh, this is like, what, what being stuck looks like can look very different from,
[21:53]the malls of New Jersey. And I think I've been trying to write about that for a long time. And
[21:58]in this nice project, I get to write about a little bit more directly. I get to go to Cape myself
[22:02]in May. Oh, yeah. It's great. It's right in time for the launch of this Cape Cod book festival.
[22:10]I'm very excited about Cape Cod, but I'm very excited about Martha's Vineyard and book festivals
[22:14]I'm very excited about. And I talk about festivals. Of course, the book doesn't actually exist yet,
[22:17]but I'm already like, no matter. Like Sam and Bear, I'm a, I'm a fantasizer. And I like to
[22:24]fantasize that how good life will be before I actually live it or even have any hope of what
[22:30]this is one of the secrets. It's like write a book where, you know, you can be quite strategic
[22:36]if you want about where you set your book. You know, like where is you? I mean, sometimes it works
[22:42]sometimes. The place where you set your book then invades Ukraine. And you will never go back
[22:47]back there again. So, okay. Good for you. My knowledge may vary. Your mileage may vary. I
[22:51]wouldn't recommend Russia currently probably as a setting or maybe I would. I want to read
[22:55]always books set everywhere. True. I didn't need to be flipped about that. No, no, I knew where
[23:00]your last book was said and all, you know, all that. I did not think you were being flipped. I
[23:05]think I'm being flipped. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. No, you're doing great. I was just saying,
[23:12]yeah, great. Do you get to go to Cape Cod? But anyway, oh, I know, totally. I feel the same
[23:16]exact way. I feel like that's what I feel like is the gift of research novel fiction research. You
[23:21]set up some places and you get to hang out there. In college, my brother was a runner at a restaurant
[23:28]like who, you know, took the food from one place to the other like in the kitchen on Cape Cod
[23:33]and lived in like this. Where on the Cape? Oh my gosh. I don't know. Yeah. I'm not familiar with it.
[23:39]I've only been there the one time when I visited him and like, yeah, he and the guys he was living
[23:44]with. I like wouldn't even sit down on the chair. It was so disgusting. You know, like, it was so
[23:48]great. They were like 19 years old. I feel like that is that was like visiting a brother's house
[23:53]as always. Always like that, visiting a brother's house. Yeah. And I do feel like I got a good taste
[23:58]of Cape Cod there and like meeting the people in the back of the restaurant and, you know, the
[24:04]like the rundown part three mini courses. Like, I have it all like in my mind. So it's a vibe. It's
[24:12]a vibe. And it's also like a stunningly beautiful place. It's so gorgeous. But yeah, it's a vibe
[24:17]definitely like there's a new book coming out. And a couple of weeks actually. And then this month
[24:22]called Wait by Gabriela Burnham and it's also a certain novel in it. Yeah. So it's set on
[24:25]Antarctica. And and tell so much about like summer people and the people who live on
[24:31]Antarctica around. And if she just captures the Nantucket vibes so incredibly, which is a place,
[24:38]I mean, I'm saying that I like hardly, I don't think I've ever been to Nantucket. But from a
[24:42]distance, I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah, this is what imagine. This is what it was. I imagine. And she,
[24:47]you know, grew up there. Like she knows very, very well. And I just love seeing it through her eyes.
[24:52]Yeah. I feel like I read something similar. I said in the Hamptons and now I'm blanking on
[24:55]Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, I will live in. Oh, no, no, no. I mean, well, it's nonfiction, but Amanda
[25:00]Fairbanks wrote a whole book. But it was set a while ago, but still anyway, off topic. Okay.
[25:07]Anyway, do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Yes, I do. Okay. I'm going to blow
[25:14]aspiring authors minds. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. I've never heard these before. Okay.
[25:19]My, I have three go-to things that I tell myself and that when other people ask, if I have any
[25:25]to say, these are my three go-to things to say. So football repeats myself. So one is right as much
[25:30]as possible. Two is read as much as possible. And three is like, build a community as much
[25:36]as possible or connect to a community as much as possible. The, I say one, the writing part, because
[25:40]I think we get really psyched out one time. So are we, you know, like perhaps one might, if one's
[25:47]name is Julia sort of get so paralyzed, but how could you put the writing to be that you don't
[25:52]actually, right? So just, just write, just like use the muscles. It's okay. You have, you might have
[25:57]an off day. You might have an off year. Not a big deal. Just keep going. Read as much as possible.
[26:03]Or off, like decades on and stuff. It's okay. Whatever. It's really like to do it. Yeah,
[26:08]just roll with it. I read as much as possible. I think a lot of times when I feel stuck, it's because
[26:14]I'm not reading. And it teaches you so much and just read whatever is interesting to you and
[26:20]don't worry about whether it would impress your, your English teacher and this mythical 11th reading
[26:25]most class just to read and connect to people. I was blown away by how much my craft improved
[26:34]and my understanding what a writing career looks like when I started to talk to other writers.
[26:41]And that kind of like be in line online. It could be in person. It could be going to readings.
[26:45]It could just be like, well, I don't know, hanging out at your local bookstore, whatever, whatever,
[26:49]but just building a world or entering a world where you're connected to books and writers
[26:56]really opens your eyes to what's possible. What you've done, Sammy, I mean, like you have built
[27:02]your worlds. Can you feel like it changed the game for you? I just am so happy. Like I literally,
[27:09]I love, I love what I do. And it's such an amazing community of people. I mean, yeah. And you know,
[27:17]some people have all, they've all different viewpoints on a lot of things, you know, and yet we
[27:22]all can connect over books and fictitious characters and human emotions and experiences. And I
[27:27]think that's something that we all have to really focus on these days in particular. We can
[27:32]connect over those and then we can argue over which character we like and which character we didn't
[27:37]argue over the endings of those books that we are connecting over, no case. Many literary disputes
[27:43]which I always talk about is political. So, I don't know. Okay. Anyway, thank you so much. This is
[27:53]really great. And you should be very proud in particular given the life stage you were in,
[27:58]but at any life stage really captivating. And yeah, congrats.
[28:03]Thank you for talking to me. I really appreciate this and thank you for putting up with all the
[28:07]background and responding. I really appreciate it. I barely even heard it. And I had like a nice
[28:11]quiet half an hour. So that was a blessing. I jinxed it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Thanks for listening to
[28:23]moms. Don't have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social
[28:28]at sippyowans and at sippy readers.