PEN USA award-winning author! Victor Lodato, HONEY
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zippy Owens or join the community at ZippyReaders.
[0:31]Victor LaDado is the author of Honey, a novel, Victor's a playwright and the author,
[0:36]also of the novel's Edgar and Lucy, and Matilda Savage, winner of the Penn USA Award for fiction.
[0:43]He is the recipient of fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation and the National Endowment for the Arts.
[0:48]His stories and essays regularly appear in the New Yorker, The New York Times,
[0:52]Grandma and elsewhere. His novels and plays have been translated into 18 languages.
[0:57]Born and raised in New Jersey, he now lives in Oregon and Arizona.
[1:00]His third novel, Honey, just came out and was one of Mary Calvie's CBS book club picks.
[1:08]Welcome, Victor. Thanks so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to read books to discuss.
[1:13]Honey, congratulations. Thank you, Zippy.
[1:16]This cover, oh my gosh, I mean the book, but the cover, the whole, you're like right in the
[1:20]tradwife moment, you know, the resurgence of the furs. I mean, this could not come out at a better time.
[1:26]Are you sort of pleased with the way life is gone? Yeah, it's lovely. In fact, I just wish the
[1:31]cover had actual fur on it. So it would be kind of dot dot. Oh, yeah, that would be very cool.
[1:37]Maybe you could make just one like that, you know, a special gift. Yeah, exactly. That would be
[1:41]very cool. Why don't you tell listeners what Honey is about? Oh boy. Well, Honey grew up in a mob
[1:47]family and she escaped at 17 and became this sort of stylish figure in the L.A.R. world.
[1:55]And then in 82, she decides for various reasons to go back to New Jersey to settle some scores and
[2:01]put some old ghosts to bed. And then the interaction with her family was still in the mob,
[2:06]sort of fuels the drama of the book. How were you able to capture being an 82 year old woman
[2:14]so well? I mean, this is like astounding. It's it. Tell me about this. You know, I mean,
[2:20]I don't know how to answer that. I mean, I have written a lot of female characters in my place
[2:25]and in my novels, but I think I've had a lot of really strong older women in my life. And so
[2:33]they were my primary role models growing up. I grew up in a household with both my grandmothers,
[2:38]which was amazing. My father's mother and my mother's mother. My parents weren't around much.
[2:43]And so they were my primary role models. And then I was sort of, you know, an Italian American
[2:49]family. They were there were great ons around me all the time every Sunday. And then I guess
[2:55]maybe because of that form of experience, I've had a lot of stronger older women in my life.
[3:01]And over the last few years of the pandemic, a lot of the women who were in their 80s have died.
[3:08]And and though honey isn't muggled on any of them, I feel like when I was writing this book,
[3:13]it felt like a tribute to these really strong women in my life.
[3:17]I saw in your acknowledgements, you credited sort of bringing these ghosts onto the page,
[3:21]which was a lovely way to say that. Can I just give listeners a taste by reading your opening
[3:27]two paragraphs? How great a writer you are? Because no, seriously, it's like, I mean,
[3:34]I know you've won a million awards and all that, but for people who don't know, it's called
[3:38]100 dresses. In the tub, honey lifted a varnished toe sunset peach to turn on the tap. She'd
[3:44]been soaking for nearly half an hour, but didn't feel ready to get out a bath soothed the mind
[3:49]as well as the lines on the face when emerged not only calmer, but a few years younger.
[3:54]As the heat bloomed again, she sank into the remaining scum of bubbles. Her breasts floated
[3:59]at the surface like so much curdled pudding. And in her ears, she could hear her blood,
[4:05]the candlelight, an attempt to evoke a spa leg atmosphere. Now just seemed depressing.
[4:10]And there was something funeral about the creeping scent of roses, honey glared at the ceiling.
[4:15]I mean, what an opening moment, right? You're like in the tub with this older, like you can just,
[4:21]it's awesome. I love that. Anyway, congrats.
[4:25]Now I always feel like, you know, I want to, I mean, with any piece of writing, I always start,
[4:32]you know, inside the mind of the person because it's always voice that leads me. I mean,
[4:38]the book is very plot driven and story driven, but if I don't hear the voice, then I can't find
[4:44]my way. Amazing. And how did you come up with this whole plot and maybe explain a little more
[4:51]about what happens and where it comes from? It's a mystery to me in some ways because I really
[4:59]don't ever start any book with any sort of outline or any sort of ideas of even,
[5:05]I want to write about this subject. It really is primarily like I hear honey's voice and then
[5:10]I kind of stalk that voice for years until I figure out the story. Only later do I say, okay,
[5:17]there's some parallels for my own family, for my own life. But I kind of like to leave that
[5:22]stuff very hidden because I don't want to think about it too much, where I feel like
[5:26]then I know what my agenda is. I'd rather be kind of play dumb, just follow the character.
[5:33]I think maybe there was something about, I mean, I'm certainly not 82, but you know, I'm getting older
[5:41]and during the pandemic, I was very far away from everyone. I felt and especially I didn't get
[5:46]to go back to New Jersey where I'm from or honey is from. So I think I was filled with this kind of
[5:51]new nostalgia, the pandemic. And I think that fueled the writing and probably why I wanted to
[5:58]tell the story of someone who'd been away from home for a long time with a lot of unresolved issues
[6:03]coming home to a very new world. And so that fueled it. And then of course like with any book,
[6:09]I feel like I'm always in many of my books. I'm either writing about the family or created
[6:15]family. Someone asked me recently, why do you always write about families? And I'm thinking,
[6:20]are there notals about anything else? Because it's always a family of people.
[6:27]So because I had felt estranged from my own family and there was lots of complications with
[6:31]that, which I won't get into, you know, this is again a book about dealing with existing family
[6:36]and honey event over the course of this book, even at 82, 14 of very vital and thriving
[6:43]family back in New Jersey, not with her own. And honey was a character in your last work.
[6:49]She was. Yeah, I've never done that before. Again, it is a matter of I finished the book,
[6:54]it was being published and honey wouldn't stop talking. There's no, I can't put you in any more
[7:01]scenes. The book is done. But yeah, I generated, kept generating so much material that I just thought,
[7:08]okay, keep talking and I'll listen and we'll find a story. And this was my shortest process
[7:15]in about six years, because my other books have been longer. So this thought lightning fast to me.
[7:19]Oh yeah, speed, speed demon over there, you know, the book feels very cinematic to me.
[7:26]Is this has it been optioned already? There's producers interested in it. And one of them
[7:30]would like me to try my hand at a screenplay, which I'd like to do, you know, I first terrified me.
[7:36]But then I realized the book is done and I'm really proud of it. And that the screenplay
[7:40]will be something completely different. Yeah. And that's fine. To me, it seems impossible to make
[7:47]a film out of it. It seems like I could make a five-part series. I just walked before it's from
[7:52]honey's present or cast. But I can imagine, you know, I can see how, you know, I can reduce it
[8:00]to its plot and make a movie. I think it should be a mini series. Okay. Well, you won't have an
[8:07]argument for me. Go for the minis here. I always said it was cinematic. Any form is fine.
[8:14]Can you take me back to how you got started as a writer and playwright and all the things? Like,
[8:21]how did you forge your career? And when did you know this is what you wanted to do?
[8:26]As a kid, I wrote a lot of poetry. And then I was always interested in acting. So when I
[8:31]I went to a MFA program for theater for acting. And then I acted for a while. But I found myself
[8:38]being cast in roles that I didn't find very interesting. So I thought, well, maybe I should write
[8:43]roles for myself. So I came to writing purely through vanity for creating edit roles for myself
[8:51]in the theater. And so for many years, I did solo performances, solo plays. And then I burnt
[8:59]out and doing that and then started writing multi character plays and not appearing in those plays.
[9:04]And then I was at a writing residency. I don't remember how many years ago, but I like around 2002,
[9:11]maybe. And I had finished the play. I was there to write. And I started something new
[9:16]because I'd never written a novel. I assumed it was a monologue. But then this monologue went on for
[9:20]10, 20, 30, 40 pages. I thought, maybe this is a novel. So I really stumbled on writing a novel. Once
[9:28]I thought, maybe this is a novel. I just kept telling myself it was a very long monologue,
[9:33]not to trip myself up because I thought, I don't know how to write a novel. That seemed like a form
[9:38]completely alien to me and more sophisticated than I was capable of. But then I wrote it and
[9:44]people wanted it and did well. And so and then after that was over, I realized I've been treated
[9:50]much better by the publishing industry than I ever had in the theater. So I thought I'm not writing
[9:55]another play. Another novel. I do miss the theater. I probably wore
[10:00]I didn't play, but you know, this is just my third novel.
[10:02]And it still feels very alive.
[10:04]I still feel like the form is so capacious
[10:07]and there's so many things I want to play with.
[10:09]So I still feel, I see writing novels feel like
[10:12]even this many years into it.
[10:13]I still feel like I have my innocence as a writer
[10:16]and I love that feeling.
[10:18]Oh, that's wonderful.
[10:19]Wow, what a ride.
[10:21]I mean, that we have to like trick ourselves
[10:23]to do all the stuff, right?
[10:25]Like I'm always in like, no one will read this,
[10:27]but you know, like how can I like not get into my head
[10:31]about what I'm working on?
[10:33]Because if you think about it being published,
[10:35]it's like forget it, right?
[10:37]Yeah.
[10:38]And if you think about, I mean, not everyone takes it,
[10:39]I mean, I'm a medivious of writers who write a book
[10:42]and you know, I wouldn't people say,
[10:44]when I hear writers say, this book took so long,
[10:46]I worked for two or three years on it.
[10:49]I just agree.
[10:51]But it also is, you know, if you have to have amnesia
[10:54]every time about also how difficult it is,
[10:58]or for everyone, it is for me.
[10:59]It just, it just is so much work.
[11:01]It's a kind of insanity to spend that many years
[11:04]writing a novel and not knowing,
[11:07]not knowing the outcome professionally
[11:09]and also just creatively.
[11:11]Yeah.
[11:12]You just have to go a little crazy.
[11:14]And just be, I also just have to, again, be innocent.
[11:17]Just believe.
[11:18]So do you think honey would have enjoyed watching
[11:20]The Sopranos or not?
[11:22]Oh, I think it, well, I don't want to give away stuff
[11:27]that goes on the book, but probably like me,
[11:30]she would have appreciated it.
[11:33]And I did love that show very much
[11:35]because everything was so familiar.
[11:37]I mean, I grew up in that part of New Jersey,
[11:39]every reference, every way of speaking,
[11:41]and every way of talking about food was like so my family.
[11:44]Honey would have been upset as I was at times by the violence.
[11:50]You know, she would have at that point
[11:52]when we were all first watching it.
[11:54]You know, she would have turned away
[11:55]or if she was watching it on,
[11:57]she would have fast-forwarded as I did
[11:59]through some of the blunter violent attacks.
[12:04]So she would appreciate the world
[12:06]that I felt like she would see herself in there
[12:08]and she would both enjoy it nastagically
[12:11]and also at the same time, be judging.
[12:15]Interesting.
[12:16]Yeah.
[12:17]Why were your parents not around?
[12:19]You can't talk about it?
[12:20]Oh, no, no.
[12:21]They were just, you know,
[12:22]I grew up in a working class family
[12:24]and they were just working all the time.
[12:27]So, you know, very lucky to have my father's mother was widowed,
[12:32]she lived upstairs with my brother and me
[12:34]and my parents and then my mother's parents, Italian,
[12:38]were downstairs in their own apartment.
[12:39]So it was mainly because my parents were working all the time.
[12:42]But so when I came home from school,
[12:45]both my grandmothers were always sitting downstairs
[12:48]and my Italian grandmother's apartment
[12:49]having their coffee and custody bread
[12:51]and I'd go straight downstairs
[12:52]and be watching their stories as they called them.
[12:55]So, you know, and my brother was more social
[12:58]and out, I was more like a grandmother's boy.
[13:01]I was always around like two grandmothers.
[13:03]So that's the first time I've heard that expression,
[13:05]a grandmother's boy.
[13:06]Yeah, my father's boy.
[13:07]Yeah.
[13:08]Forget Mama's boy.
[13:08]This is even better.
[13:09]Yeah.
[13:10]Did you ever have, I mean,
[13:12]this is probably inappropriate to ask,
[13:13]did you ever have a New Jersey accent at all or not?
[13:16]Oh, yeah.
[13:17]In fact, at an event at the other night,
[13:18]I was asked like saying,
[13:20]someone said, you have a terrible New Jersey accent.
[13:22]I was like, oh, I have a good New Jersey accent.
[13:24]But I just, you know, when I go home, I can do it.
[13:26]Because I mean, I love people like when I go up,
[13:29]my given name is Vittorio,
[13:30]but everyone called me Victor.
[13:32]And I didn't have an awe at the end of my name,
[13:33]like the whole time I was growing up.
[13:35]And so I learned to write, I knew that it was an awe.
[13:37]Cause I was always called Victor.
[13:39]So, so I can't, I do have a New Jersey.
[13:42]And when I go home, sometimes when I'm around the group
[13:45]and then it comes out where I feel like
[13:47]it has to come out or they're gonna look at me
[13:49]like, honey's family, look at her,
[13:51]like, why you're talking like that?
[13:53]I didn't do anything or something.
[13:57]Yeah.
[13:58]And I didn't intentionally lose it.
[14:01]You know, I didn't try.
[14:02]I think honey tried was really like aware
[14:05]when you had your life and strategically,
[14:08]you know, work to like, then she talks about that in the book.
[14:11]Yeah.
[14:12]And what is your relationship with the art world
[14:15]and all of that?
[14:16]Like, how did you like tell me that?
[14:19]For many years, I lived with a painter.
[14:22]In fact, he, he stole my dearest friend
[14:25]and my, my closest ally and he stole this
[14:27]with me part of the year.
[14:29]And so, so I've just been around paintings
[14:31]and I've always loved visual art.
[14:33]I mean, I, even as a playwright,
[14:35]I loved being in museums more than theaters.
[14:38]And, and I was always the painter,
[14:41]my friend Chris Rush is colorblind.
[14:44]And so, so often you'd mess up greens and reds.
[14:47]So I was always like the sea and I dog.
[14:50]So he'd bring a painting home
[14:52]as he was working on saying it's fantastic,
[14:54]but like the skin's a little green.
[14:57]And he'd say where exactly point here.
[14:59]So, so for many years, and I still, I still do that.
[15:03]I'm like, a little too much green in the face.
[15:06]So, behind the scenes of your favorite works of art.
[15:09]Who knew?
[15:09]Yeah.
[15:11]But I'm glad I had fun writing about art
[15:13]and, you know, and those two artists,
[15:15]in particular, honey, is very fun.
[15:18]Oh, that's great.
[15:19]Sounds like maybe the theater just was not for you.
[15:22]You've completely, like said things about it, like, I don't know.
[15:25]And I just, I just saw a play last year in New York
[15:28]from a friend of mine if you're in New York.
[15:31]Not right now, but in general, yes.
[15:32]And I love theater, yes.
[15:34]But it has a limited Broadway run right now,
[15:36]a plug for stereo fawning, which you may have heard of.
[15:39]Yeah.
[15:40]I haven't seen it.
[15:41]So when I, I hadn't wanted to do a play
[15:44]and I thought I was done with it here,
[15:45]but I saw that.
[15:46]I thought, oh, this is can be an amazing form.
[15:49]But I don't know.
[15:50]I mean, I think, sometimes I think I'd like to act again.
[15:53]I like to write plays again, but I'm still,
[15:56]I love, I also love spending a lot of time alone.
[16:00]So novel writing is good for that theater less good.
[16:03]And what about reading?
[16:05]Reading.
[16:06]Oh, what am I reading?
[16:07]Yeah.
[16:08]You know, I just read for the first time Charles Portis.
[16:11]I've been reading him who wrote true grit.
[16:14]And, uh, and I remember my first editor, Courtney Haudel,
[16:18]from FSG, when she was editing Matilda Savage,
[16:22]my first book, which is in the voice of a 12 year old girl.
[16:26]She said, you have to read true grit.
[16:27]And I didn't read it for like 10 years,
[16:30]because I thought it's a Western that I have no interest in that.
[16:33]But have you ever read true grit?
[16:34]I have not.
[16:36]It's, it's so amazing.
[16:38]So I recommend it highly.
[16:39]And now I've been reading some other Charles Portis.
[16:42]So, um, so Charles Portis is on my mind right now.
[16:45]Awesome.
[16:46]I'll add it to the list.
[16:48]Do you have advice for aspiring authors?
[16:51]Oh, boy.
[16:52]I think probably just you have to fight for the time.
[16:58]You know, and, and often that can seem if you especially have
[17:02]commitments around them, you don't want to neglect your family and friends.
[17:05]But as best you can, you have to just claim some time.
[17:10]Because you need to, you need to create, I guess, a kind of like
[17:14]the regularity.
[17:15]And if not that, like some sort of studio discipline.
[17:19]And it just takes time.
[17:21]So you just like, whether it's a matter of like you have to get up an hour
[17:25]earlier, uh, you just, a time is essential.
[17:29]So you have to just, and you have to say no to some people you love at times
[17:32]and be a little selfish and claim that time.
[17:35]Or you, or you'll never get it done.
[17:37]That sounds like, does that sound like really bad selfish?
[17:40]No, it sounds like really good advice.
[17:42]And I'm like, nodding, thinking to myself.
[17:44]Yes, yes, yes, I need to see that.
[17:47]So no, it's very good advice.
[17:49]It is very good.
[17:50]And one would be also, you know, to, to be patient with yourself.
[17:54]Like, I think I take out so long to write it because I know that I'm going to
[17:58]make a big mess of things.
[17:59]And I think there's some writers that they make a mess and it
[18:04]terrifies them and they think, oh, I'm terrible.
[18:07]But you, you have to make a mess.
[18:09]You know, you should throw it down and make a mess and then slowly
[18:13]work with that mess.
[18:14]So don't be afraid to make a, like, a really bad chocolate mess.
[18:19]Amazing.
[18:20]And what do you think your grandmothers would say to you if they could be on
[18:23]the Zoom right now with you?
[18:25]What would they be saying?
[18:26]You know, I get emotional thinking about that because they, uh, you know,
[18:30]they were very supportive of me and ways that other family weren't.
[18:35]And, you know, I have a lot of just as the book shows.
[18:37]There are a lot of, there are a lot of bullies in this book and how
[18:40]you could have some people from bullies.
[18:42]And I also had some bullies growing up and my,
[18:45]the strong women in my life protected me.
[18:47]So I think they'd be cheering for you.
[18:51]So amazing.
[18:53]Nothing like a grandmother.
[18:54]Yeah, I agree.
[18:56]My gosh.
[18:57]Well, Victor or Victor, thank you so much.
[19:01]Thank you for coming on.
[19:04]Congratulations on this work and just, I mean, what a talent.
[19:08]So amazing.
[19:09]Thank you.
[19:10]Thank you.
[19:10]Okay.
[19:11]Bye bye.
[19:14]Thanks for listening to momstone have time to read books.
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[19:20]sippyowans and at zippy readers.