Instant USA Today Bestseller! Steven Rowley, THE GUNCLE ABROAD
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:30]Steven Raleigh is the author of The Gunkel Abroad. He's been on this podcast several times before,
[0:36]and will be part of our Palm Springs retreat, which is in September.
[0:39]Steven Raleigh is the best-selling author of five novels, including Lilley and the Octopus,
[0:44]which was a Washington Post notable book, The Editor, an NPR Best Book of the Year,
[0:49]The Gunkel, winner of the 22nd, Thoroughbred Prize for American Humor, which, by the way, is a huge,
[0:54]huge deal, and Goodreads Choice Awards finalist for novel of the year, and The Celebrants.
[1:00]And, of course, The Gunkel, and now The Gunkel Abroad. His fiction has been translated
[1:04]into 20 languages. He resides in Palm Springs, California.
[1:08]Welcome, Steven. Thanks so much for coming back on Monster and Have Time to Read Books to
[1:12]discuss The Gunkel Abroad. Congratulations.
[1:15]Thank you so much. It's a joy to be back with you.
[1:18]Oh, I really love this book. I really love all your books, but this book, especially,
[1:22]I think, because I have kids at this age and stage, and, you know, with loss mixed with
[1:29]raising children mixed with new love. I mean, there's just so much stuff. And the escapist
[1:34]piece of it, too, is just so great. So anyway, I really enjoyed it. Congratulations. It's really
[1:39]awesome. Oh, I'm thrilled to hear that. Thank you. So, okay, tell listeners what The Gunkel Abroad
[1:45]is about, and maybe touch on The Gunkel in case people haven't read it.
[1:49]Yeah, let's backtrack there for a moment. The Gunkel came out in May of 2021
[1:54]for those who missed that first book. You don't need to read the first book to enjoy
[1:59]this one, but I think you'll be a little bit more sort of inside jokes and whatnot that you
[2:03]might get. Understand the relationships between the characters if you start with the first one.
[2:07]But in that first book, Patrick O'Hara, who is this was sort of a semi-retired television
[2:13]sitcom actor at the time, with living a somewhat reclusive life in Palm Springs when he was tasked
[2:18]with taking in his niece and nephew for the summer after the death of their mom. And it sort
[2:25]of led to a season of healing for all three of them. And, you know, I always say the one thing
[2:30]in author has absolutely no control over is the state of the world when their book is released.
[2:35]And to the extent that that came out at a time when vaccines were first available, but we were just,
[2:41]we were all emerging from a dark year. And, you know, just like these characters are sort of going
[2:46]through a dark time and finding their way sort of through. It was sort of a book that resonated in
[2:52]a certain moment. And I was shocked by the embrace that people had for these characters. And,
[2:59]you know, it took on a life of its own. It became a slow but steady bestseller.
[3:04]Whoopi Goldberg held it up as a favorite book on the view. You know, a movie's in the works.
[3:09]And, and then it ended up winning the third prize for American humor, which is,
[3:14]you know, sort of the highest prize for written humor in this, in this country. And so I was
[3:19]just bold over by the whole that that book has with readers, which did not make it easy to decide
[3:25]to write a sequel. Because the last thing I want to do on do was any of that magic, you know,
[3:31]or undo any of the goodwill that, that readers had for these characters is a lot of pressure.
[3:36]But I think a lot of people assumed that I missed writing Patrick and indeed, you know,
[3:41]he's a fun character to write. But, you know, spoiler alert, there's a lot of Patrick
[3:45]right here. So I can write Patrick anytime, you know, but my thoughts kept turning to the kids.
[3:52]And, you know, it's not a spoiler to say at the end of that first book, they go back to
[3:56]their home in Connecticut where their mom is no longer there. And my hard-kept turning to the kids
[4:03]in many ways their grief journey was just beginning at the end of that first book. And I felt
[4:08]I really needed to check in, you know, and see, are the kids okay? Are the kids okay? So that
[4:14]sort of led me to the idea for a sequel. Wow. So did you feel super nervous starting it out?
[4:21]Or did you just jump right back in? I saw that you read like a lot of other sequels and
[4:25]series to prepare, which I found very interesting. Yeah. I mean, sequels has have their own
[4:30]drawbacks and potential pitfalls. And in fact, Patrick in the book has quite strong feelings
[4:36]about sequels. And I guess, I guess I do too. Although I will say that I think Mama Mia too,
[4:42]here we go again. It's a superior film too. It can be done. It can be done. Yeah, it was it was hard.
[4:51]I mean, I jumped. I was able to jump in and as far as I knew the characters that that helped.
[4:56]But I had to give a lot of thought to the kids and how they've aged because this
[5:00]the Gunkel Abroad picks up five years after the events of the first book. And the children's
[5:07]father, Greg, Patrick's brother, is engaged to be remarried and the kids are not happy about it.
[5:15]And so I had to give a lot of thought to like not only how these kids have aged in five years,
[5:20]there are 11 and 14 now, which is older than how quickly can I subtract five from
[5:26]six and nine, which they were in the first book. You know, that's a big age difference. You know,
[5:31]having kids who are at age a lot in those years. But not only that, they've had their uncle
[5:36]Patrick in their life for five years. So they're not as charmed by some of his antics as they were
[5:40]in the first book. And also I had to give great thought to how grief would inform how they each
[5:47]age, you know, not having their mom. I think for Macy, the older child, you know, becoming a young
[5:53]woman, she's taken on kind of a maternal role for her younger brother. And grant the boy, I think
[5:58]not having his mom is sort of delayed his adolescence, but has sort of slowed his maturation. And so,
[6:04]you know, I had to get to know the kids again and sort of meet them where they are.
[6:10]Interesting. I'm doing something similar with my book blank right now. I don't know my publisher
[6:16]because they said, don't write a sequel. But then I tried to write it like 100 other ways. And
[6:22]it's like not going, well, I have the same thing. It's like five years later with the same kids
[6:25]because I know them. And I know me. It was basically the character. So what did you kind of
[6:31]avoid it? Sometimes, you know, I was talking to Andrew Sean Greer who wrote less and then
[6:35]and then less is lost. You know, he had themes he wanted to explore in a new book. And he thought,
[6:40]well, wait a minute. I already have the perfect character to explore these themes. And sometimes
[6:46]it's better with both for the for the writer and for the reader. If you have a little bit of history
[6:51]with the character, you can usually, you know, but sequels, you know, it is sort of what do you
[6:56]want to do with the sequel? A sequel itself is just sort of a tool. But what do you want to say
[7:01]with it? What do you want to accomplish? Yeah. Yeah. Did you learn? What did you take away? I haven't
[7:06]talked to anyone else who's done a deep dive in sequels. What did you learn? Well, I will say this now,
[7:12]you know, because my publisher was always like, will there be a third gun? And I was like,
[7:16]can we just wait and see if anyone buys this? So I will say I've been, I've been extremely bold
[7:24]over by, by the way, that people have, have lined up for this new adventure. And I'm sort of,
[7:30]you know, I'm really grateful for that. It's been I think three weeks now, the book is out.
[7:35]And it's doing, it's doing really well. And I'm here in wonderful things from readers.
[7:39]So, you know, as far as that's concerned, highly recommend. But, you know, it was also
[7:47]a message that I really believed in that I wanted, you know, this is, this is a book, you know,
[7:51]it's about maturing in a way. And hopefully I'm maturing as a writer. But the kids, not only
[7:57]the kids growing as we've discussed, but Patrick, you know, the main character is also growing and
[8:02]it's facing turning 50. And that's, you know, something I wanted to explore because that was
[8:07]something I was going through in my own life. But also it's, it's a book and this is what made
[8:11]it so rewarding. It's a book about finding joy again after loss and that there is room for
[8:19]celebration again, even after we lose someone we love dearly. And that's, and sometimes the best way
[8:25]to honor someone we've lost is by embracing life. And, you know, to the extent that that's the
[8:33]message of the book, that's a joyous message to embrace. And so it made the whole thing,
[8:37]I think we're flying. And you do say in the book, you know, it makes you, it does,
[8:41]it's terrible, but it does make you stronger. And there's that, right? There is that, yeah,
[8:46]if you need a silver lining there. Where did the loss come from for you? Or where did this
[8:53]I'm assuming? Like, where do you write? How do you write so authentically about loss? Where is that
[8:59]coming from? Yeah, you know, grief is a theme that I've returned to, through a number of my books.
[9:04]And I try to approach it differently, right? You know, I just think I worry sometimes it readers
[9:09]think, you know, I know I must know like a school bus filled with people that just went over a
[9:14]cliff somehow because I, because I write about loss. And that's not true. I've had my share like
[9:20]like anybody else. But I do think grief is an important theme to return to because I think it's a
[9:25]a Western culture, particularly where we're kind of bad at grief or we approach it with an
[9:31]arrogance like, oh, I can schedule it for late. You know, I'm busy now. I can schedule it for later
[9:35]or I can just power through it or that it's even temporary, that it's even a temporary condition
[9:40]and it's not something that, you know, seeps into us and becomes part of the fabric of who we are.
[9:48]And the irony I think is that, you know, loss is something that should be one of the more
[9:53]uniting human experiences. You know, if we're lucky enough to love, we will probably lose.
[10:00]at some point and instead I think so often like we think we're a burden on someone if we're grieving
[10:04]or we have to isolate and separate ourselves and that's just not true. I want there to be a better
[10:11]conversation about grief and grieving and even the reading can be a solitary activity.
[10:19]You know it's podcasts like this and it's book groups and discussions that even though we're
[10:23]reading the book alone we are coming together in conversation with others who have read the book
[10:29]as well. Totally agree. I think books are a great way to tackle that. My gosh the note from
[10:34]it's a mom. Oh my gosh. I'm always going to make you cry. I mean hopefully I make laugh
[10:41]but I'm always going to make you cry. You are. You are. It's amazing. You are also going to make me travel
[10:47]because I swear I'm reading the book and I was like okay is this a real hotel and so then I
[10:52]I googled the intrometto right intrometto. The grand trimester and Lake Como in LA. So I googled it.
[11:01]I sent it to Kyle and I was like we have to go here. Then I emailed them and said like do you have
[11:06]an ability next week. Anyway they're full but I have determined the time to turn. You asked them
[11:12]during wedding season if they had any availability. I couldn't even have gone but it was just
[11:18]you know I'm like well we could cancel all of our plans with the kids and just totally you know
[11:22]which it is. It's done. It is a real hotel. It's stunning. I have stayed there. I do try to
[11:30]I try to wrap places right about places I've been and here we go right this is a European
[11:35]John. I think it's also no surprise anybody who loves these books would not be surprised to hear
[11:39]that that I was inspired by the anti-mame books from the 1950s and then you know became wonderful
[11:45]movie with Rosalyn Russell in a Broadway show with Angela Lansbury musical. But the sequel to
[11:51]the first anti-mame novel was a book called Around the World with anti-mame and these are wonderful
[11:57]reads if anyone wants to go back and find them and pay for back. So I knew if I ever revisited
[12:03]these characters as a sort of further hat tip to that series I would be taking them abroad.
[12:09]But I also think it's important to write about places we know and places we've been. I think you know
[12:14]we've all read books and and you may have even interviewed writers like you can tell when a writer
[12:18]is really just taken with their own research. But it's missing that piece that sort of lived to the
[12:24]tactile things right like how the air feels or or what this what you know what the air smells like
[12:30]or what the food tastes like. I mean you know it's all those sort of wonderful things that come from
[12:35]I think actually having been to these places. So I try but I will cop to the fact that I have
[12:40]never been to Salzburg. I've not done the sound of music tour which Patrick takes the kids on.
[12:46]What about Plaza Otonet in Paris? Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.
[12:51]The chocolate showed. I'm like oh my gosh. Yeah. It's a immersive. It's like a whole vacation in
[12:57]a book. Yeah. Yeah. And now I've got the travel. These were all trips that I you know that I
[13:03]used this inspiration were pre sort of COVID trips. So you know this is you know cut to me on the
[13:08]phone with my accountant being like hey can we reopen those tax returns from 2017,
[13:13]18 and 19? Oh no. How is this? I didn't know it at the time but they are. Oh my gosh. I love it.
[13:21]The other thing that I found so fun is just how many movie references you made because these are
[13:26]like that is my if I could put a canon of movies together that I love it. It would be in this
[13:32]book from of actually in Harry Midtown. It was just like all the ones. Every single one you
[13:37]mentioned I'm like that one then I was looking do you have a list of the movies that you
[13:42]mentioned somewhere. Does that exist? No but you know I credit I actually credit my mom you know
[13:47]so if you want to sit your kids down and have them watch some of the you know I do a little film
[13:51]festival for them because I credit my mom you know with sitting me down to watch the sound of
[13:55]music when I was a kid and I was like you know a nine year old boy I don't I you know she practically
[13:59]had to tie me to a chair like I don't want to watch about singing nuns are you are you know
[14:04]are you nuts but you know 10 minutes in I was captivated you know absolutely captivated them
[14:09]and you know she introduced me to a lot of movies that I think have affected the way that I
[14:15]write you know even though that were movies and not books like I think of the terms of endearment
[14:19]you know the film not not the Larry McMurray novel which is different but or beaches or steel
[14:26]magnolias and I always think of these as my favorite comedies and I was talking to someone about
[14:31]this and they're like oh you mean the one where the daughter dies or the best friend dies or the
[14:36]mother dies and I was like oh yeah I guess they are but but what stuck with me was the humor you know
[14:43]and that is what I try to put in my books do that even though sad things happen you know humor
[14:48]has always been the way through yes and it's that mix of a laugh out loud moment on one page
[14:55]and heartbreak on the next so I think is really defines my work even though the stories themselves
[15:01]are pretty different I totally agree and by the way I have been doing that with my kids and
[15:07]we really have watched 16 candles and clueless and you know they go they couldn't have their
[15:13]dads and watch like all the action movies and I'm like I'm like and I'm like is the right
[15:19]I mean all the kids who watches are 10 9 and 11 and I'm like it's probably too old do you
[15:25]know it's fine it's fine it's fine I also think there's nothing that will show you just how
[15:32]perceptive kids are then showing them a movie and like asking questions and realizing like
[15:37]they can spot a crush from a mile away you know it's amazing so yeah and books too you reference
[15:43]Judy Bloom and like all these let's just fall of it it's like it's clear that we are of the same
[15:48]era but even if you weren't it wouldn't even matter but yeah I don't think it might you know part
[15:52]of it is you know having a sort of a queer lead in a story like you know pop culture is such an
[15:58]important language in the gay community you know we trade and sort of pop cultural references
[16:03]but in a novel format you know it takes a long time to write a book and then publishing is a long
[16:10]lead industry as you know and so you know it could be two years that you know the hopes or process
[16:16]or more getting something to the shelf and then you want your book to have a long shelf life
[16:20]after that so you don't want anything you know the reason that you don't want to be like two
[16:24]current or two of the moment because unless you're really anchoring your story in a specific year
[16:29]for a reason but if the references are all sort of classic then hopefully the book has a more
[16:35]timeless feel yes absolutely oh my gosh did you outline the story or did you just have it in your
[16:42]head what was going to happen or did it just all come out as you went I outlined the itiner the travel
[16:48]itinerary I think but beyond that I'm sort of a classic pants or you know as as we say in the
[16:54]biz right fly by the seat of my pants and in this case I sort of knew I knew I had a strong
[17:01]sense of the opening scene and I knew kind of the ending anywhere I wanted to go and beyond that
[17:07]I had travel destinations along the way I had like almost like a map like here's here's where
[17:12]there you here's the their URL tickets and here's where they're gonna go and then I let the journey
[17:18]sort of unfold and in front of me and that was that was a joyous way to write this book because
[17:24]it allowed me to feel like I was on the trip to can I read a funny scene from the beginning is that
[17:29]okay yes I dug it your dialogue is always so hilarious here wait hold on oh this is from like very
[17:36]beginning but okay grand scheme console grand is the job the little boy grand's game console made
[17:43]a sound like something swirling a drain and he groaned why can't dad marry palma palminum
[17:47]speaking of nemesis a cold chill ran down Patrick Spine palmina's a lesbian you know that
[17:52]grand didn't seem to view that as disqualifying yeah but gay marriage is legal now
[17:57]yes for gay people to marry other gay peep wait why would you want your dad to marry palminum
[18:02]grand shrugged that they all knew the answer palmino was the very definition of
[18:06]spread to chora in every way she exceeded an effortless cool maybe you should marry her
[18:11]gay men can't marry lesbians Patrick set of faults oh no here come the gunkal rules
[18:16]maybe she had her tongue in protest gunkal rules were Patrick's little bunmo and instructions for
[18:21]living that he previously doled out like candy branches awesome when a gay man hands you his phone
[18:26]look only what he is showing you bottomless mimosas are not the same as countless mimosas those
[18:31]sort of things grant pressed undeterred why not she's gay you're gay you just said because that's not
[18:37]how it works yeah one of you know so here's the thing you know writing a sequel you do want
[18:45]to introduce new new characters too you know people you know think about your own lives five years
[18:50]ago five years from now there are new people in the whole point and one of my favorite lines
[18:55]from the first book was I think macy was being a little obstinate at one point and Patrick warns
[19:01]not to make an enemy of him and he says you can't spell nemesis without me and so I wanted to
[19:09]give Patrick a nemesis this time and I thought you know a wicked stepmother was too easy that's
[19:15]two on the nose and so instead the children's stepmother to be has a lesbian sister or the children's
[19:22]soon to be lant and she is now the apple of their eye in the way that Patrick used to be and it
[19:28]drives him nuts so that's that was quite a fun new addition to the to the cast I was listening to
[19:35]you read them I also read the audio I've read the audiobooks for both of the uncle and the
[19:40]uncle abroad and in the first book grant has a a list the younger boy has a list which I thought
[19:46]was so genius on the page because I'm like I'm not gonna have to tag every piece of dialogue I
[19:50]don't have to write he said she said Grant said macy said it'll be clear which child is talking
[19:55]and then it came time to narrate the audiobook and I was like son of a bitch
[20:00]Why did I do this?
[20:02]Why did I do this?
[20:03]So I think once again, I think I'm so smart.
[20:07]Page one of Uncle Abroad.
[20:08]Grant has outgrown his list.
[20:10]But I was like, OK, there we go.
[20:12]But then I realized all the new characters
[20:14]in this book are Italian.
[20:16]So do some high school drama department level,
[20:21]Italian access for this new one.
[20:24]But oh my gosh.
[20:26]Well, I know you said you wanted to see how the sales
[20:27]are going before finishing some sort of trilogy.
[20:31]Have you been inspired by becoming an instant?
[20:34]Say it, but fella and do you, then add to it,
[20:38]or are you writing something else?
[20:39]What do you have to?
[20:41]I think what really helped me with this book
[20:44]was the time jump and dropping in on these characters.
[20:48]Instead of, I think it's, in terms of recapturing the magic,
[20:51]I think it would have been hard to just pick up
[20:54]exactly where we left off that.
[20:56]Because I want to, again, use these characters
[20:59]to say something about either the world that we live in
[21:03]or about growing up or whatnot.
[21:07]And so if I do revisit again, don't be surprised if there's
[21:11]a little time jump again.
[21:13]And to help with that, I think it wouldn't
[21:15]it won't be the next book that I write, probably.
[21:17]But I wouldn't be surprised.
[21:20]Although if I'm back on your podcast,
[21:22]talking about the uncle in space, or something
[21:25]you have to, you have to have an intervention.
[21:27]You have to stop me.
[21:29]If you read about the uncle in space,
[21:31]and I am just still sitting here in the same spot
[21:33]in my same chair, I don't know what we're going to have to do.
[21:37]Beaming in from the International Space Station.
[21:39]Yeah, exactly.
[21:40]I'm like, oh, OK.
[21:44]So what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[21:47]Oh, goodness.
[21:48]You know, I'm someone who was always very jealous, someone
[21:53]who came out of a prestigious writing program,
[21:55]Iowa, for instance, and told their first book at 25.
[21:59]And it was off to the races.
[22:01]That was not my publishing journey.
[22:04]I didn't publish, so I was well into my 40s.
[22:06]And so what I want to say more than anything
[22:09]is stick with it.
[22:10]And there were moments when it felt like I
[22:12]was the last person who hadn't given up on me.
[22:15]Others were like, well, what about law school?
[22:17]You think you sure like not law school?
[22:19]And I just, I don't know where it came from,
[22:22]but I had this inner confidence that writing was something
[22:26]I needed to do.
[22:28]And so I'm happy I stuck with it.
[22:30]And for me, who I consider myself more self-taught,
[22:33]because I didn't formally study creative writing,
[22:36]although I did, you know, in college, a lot of critical writing.
[22:39]But I was always, you know, in the years
[22:41]I was like trying to break through.
[22:43]I was always very apologetic about calling myself a writer.
[22:46]You know, and I wish now that I had the confidence to say,
[22:49]oh, no, I'm a writer, even though I held down
[22:51]different day jobs, and I was earning my income in different ways
[22:54]and paying the bills in different ways.
[22:56]I wish, you know, if you, what I want to say to aspiring women,
[22:59]if you, if you are writing, you are a writer,
[23:02]and you can say that proudly, and with confidence,
[23:06]and it doesn't matter where your income comes from.
[23:08]If you sit down and are putting in the work, you know,
[23:12]you are a writer and stick with it.
[23:14]And, you know, eventually good things can happen.
[23:18]Amazing.
[23:19]Wow. Let's see, thank you so much.
[23:21]And I'm so excited you're going to be with Byron
[23:24]on the retreat in Palm Springs in the fall.
[23:27]I'll see you once of 10.
[23:28]We will see you in September.
[23:30]It's going to be warm still, I think.
[23:31]So, probably right.
[23:32]But that's all right.
[23:34]It's just plenty of room in the suitcase for books.
[23:36]Yeah, exactly.
[23:37]I'll open up the calf tan closet for you.
[23:40]And we'll have fun.
[23:44]We'll have a lot of fun.
[23:46]All right, well, thank you so much.
[23:47]And I really loved it.
[23:48]And thank you, and oh my gosh, it's just really
[23:52]it has hit home, I don't know.
[23:53]Thank you.
[23:54]Yeah, it's always fun to talk to you.
[23:56]You too.
[23:56]Okay, bye-bye.
[24:00]Thanks for listening.
[24:00]Two moms don't have time to read books.
[24:02]If you love it, please leave a review.
[24:04]And follow us on social at Civi Owens and at Civi Readers.