Bustle Digital Group Chief Content Officer! Emma Rosenblum, VERY BAD COMPANY

[1:31]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I am also a newly minted USA Today bestselling author of the novel, Blank. I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at zibbymedia.com or follow me on social at zibby owens or join the community at zibbyreaders.

[2:00]Emma Rosenblum: Emma Rosenblum is the author of Very Bad Company, a novel. This is her second time on the podcast. She was previously on for her best selling novel, Bad Summer People. Emma is the chief content officer at Bustle Digital Group, overseeing content and strategy for Bustle, Elite Daily, Nylon, The Zoe Report, Romper, Scary Mommy, The Dad, and Inverse. Welcome, Emma. Thanks for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Very Bad Company. Congratulations. Thank you. It's so nice to see you, and I'm excited to talk about this. Well, thank you for taking me to the one hotel in Miami. I had a lovely escape. I've been there before, and I was like, oh, I, like, nudged my husband. I'm like, guess where I get to go tonight? I'm going to the one hotel in this book. So anyway, tell listeners about the story, how you came up with it and all of the all of the antics. Sure. So this book follows a team of executives at a startup, a tech startup, an ad tech startup. And they are all going down to the one hotel in Miami for a team building retreat. And there's a new employee, there's older employees. It's a mix of funny characters. And when they get there, they find out that the company is on the verge of being sold, which is very exciting for them because that means they're all going to make a lot of money, hopefully. And they have a big drunken night out celebration. And then the next morning, they reconvene for breakfast as per their schedule. And one of the executives is missing. And they don't know what's happened. Is she dead or is she alive? And they kind of go from there. So it's a dark, humorous take on kind of tech world, workplace shenanigans, and greed. That's all my books are about. That's amazing. And you pulled off something very complicated, which is developing a lot of characters at the same time. Right? Often, they're like, there's a smaller cast of character, there's a family, or there's you know? But here, we have the entire sort of executive team and everybody who's there at once. And I love how you alternate viewpoints and all of that so we get the inside scoop on, like, the secrets everyone's really keeping. But still, it's hard. Like, all the interactions and, like, who's running past each other on the beach and when do you describe this person versus when do you describe that person? Like, technically, I feel like that's a lot. How did you do that? Well, you know, I did a similar kind of thing in my first book. I just love a cast of characters. Just love movies and books that where you are pulled into different viewpoints. And I felt like, I don't know, I just I also and I maybe we talked about this before. I I get bored writing. Like, I need to use myself in order to get through a draft. And so for me, changing perspective is a really great way because I can do 5,000 words in someone's voice and what's happening with them. And then I'm like, oh man, I'm really bored. And I'm like, yay, get to start on someone else. It pulls me through in a way. And this actually has fewer characters than Bad Summer People. And in my next book, will have maybe even fewer characters. I'm not sure if I could ever write a per a book from one perspective. Like, I just don't know if I could do it. So I feel like I I can write a book from multiple perspectives. I just, like, don't I lack the imagination or something. I'm like, no. I'm just one person going through the world. You know, there's so so many funny company type references or, like, things that people do that you don't often talk about, like, all this salary comparison and the, like, somebody's getting paid more and, like, the new person who comes and then, like, who knows, who doesn't know, what people do in response to that, how they, you know, leverage different pretend offers. I mean, all the things. Talk about that and how this sort of pervasive yet not spoken about thing comes up all the time. So I have worked my entire career at various companies, corporate, some a couple smaller, some bigger corporations. And I think it's a pretty universal thing if you've held any sort of white collar job from low level to high level, this idea of competitiveness and intrigue and who's kind of in with the boss, who is on the you know, who's maybe gonna quit, who might get fired soon. It is just something that fills the day, and I have always loved that aspect of work. It just really amuses me, and it keeps people going. It, you know, work can be really drudgery. It can just be so boring. And so like the workplace politics is something that it just fills every single office. It doesn't have to be a startup. It can be any big or small. And I felt like that was such a funny thing that I've witnessed in my life to be able to put into a book that I hadn't really read in a book before. I mean, see that on TV sometimes, but just, it's something that I just didn't encounter in fiction that often. And I thought it's just such a like ripe, easy thing to for parody because people care so much about these things that ultimately don't really matter in terms of, you know, who's in the loop with what corporate decision, who's included in a meeting, who's left out of the meeting. This assistant doesn't like that assistant. And I felt like infusing the book with that was like a good way to get through and also to create more intrigue on top of the actual intrigue, which is that someone has possibly died. Yeah. Right. Aside from the plot. Right. But the funny thing about what I thought was funny when I was trying to write it was that that stuff, that corporate intrigue, who's getting more equity than another person is as important to these characters as do we have to figure out if this person has been murdered. So that to me is a very funny thing to put in a book. To me, it's not that untrue, honestly. Yeah. I mean, it's so funny. Which one of these characters, if any, do you identify the most of you in the work world? Any of them? No. I was very careful to not incorporate myself at all in this book because I do know that anyone that I've ever worked with will read this book and will be looking for similarities and or, you know, just differences between not just me, but other people that I've worked with who are the characters in this book. So I was like, I am not there is no way someone could read this book and think that that's me. Though some people will read this book and think, Is that them? But it's a lot of pulled, just general life experiences and the kinds of characters you meet at any job. And obviously it's all heightened and it's kind of again, it's a lot of satire, but there's truth to some of these characters, I do think, in terms of their personality traits, the kind of people that go into HR versus the kind of that are CEOs versus the kind of people that are doing public relations. I mean, there are cliches for a reason in that, like, a lot of that's true about a lot of people that go into those different roles. And so I used that for sure to guide the characterization of these people. Well, in Bad Summer People, I know we talked about the community at large and how it didn't go over so well and that people definitely identified with the characters there. I know, but I have to tell you, now I'm a hero of the town. Now the So book did everyone's like, oh, I love this book. I'm like, you hated this book. But now now it's the now it's the pride and joy of something. We'll see, you know, we'll see what happens. I think there might be a couple little stories coming out in the next few weeks that might be kind of exploring who these characters might be based So, you know, if anything, hope that builds some buzz for the book. You know, getting buzz for a second book is always a little bit harder than for a debut novel. And so I think it's all in good fun. And I think anybody who might find themselves in it is probably in on the joke anyway. I like that. Particularly like I think her name's Deborah, who's hiding a pregnancy at work and everything and trying to masquerade something, like, just so you know, even when she was like, people are gonna notice my chest because people notice everything, it just has to, like it's that tight knit that, like, you can't even go up a bra size without somebody noticing. But honestly, that's what work is like in some instances, particularly in a world of a startup where everybody's just working all the time. Your work becomes your de facto family. You're seeing them more than your spouse, than your children. And the intense relationships you build with people at work is, again, something that I'm interested in and also hadn't seen reflected in fiction that much. But yes, and then sometimes you leave a company, sometimes you're best friends with someone for seven years at a job, just like inseparable. That's the person you talk to the most. Then you leave your job and then it's like you barely talk to that person again for the rest of your life. It's a very funny way of moving through life. As I've seen as I've gotten older and had many jobs, that is an element that particularly for women I think when they bond at work is something both it's comforting, but then it can also be competitive. And it is something that I explore in this novel. Very interesting. Talk about your jobs that you've been referencing. And I know you're where you are now, but what have the jobs been and which are the most perhaps like this company, if any? No. The company I'm at now is probably the one that I most like this company. So I started as a magazine editor and writer. I was at New York Magazine for like eight years and then I moved to Glamour. I was there for a few years. I was at Bloomberg. So there's some elements of Bloomberg in this book at Businessweek. And then I was at Elle. I went back to women's magazines, and now I'm at Bustle Digital Group, which is the chief content officer there. And we have a number of properties and sites. And in this job specifically, specifically, I I am am on on the the executive team. This is the first time in my career where I've been on an executive team where I'm not just working in my department, but working across all the different departments and thinking about company strategy. And so that was a bit of an inspiration for this kind of book because this is the first time in my job where I'm not just working with other editors and writers. I'm working very closely with our CFO, our CEO, our CTO, all of these people that come from different kinds of worlds. And so that kind of, you know, it's almost like a superhero movie in a way. It's not, but it's that idea of like this, you know, the tech guy is like this, and then the product person is like this, and the HR person and the PR person and, you know, the crazy CEO who everybody is kind of following in a cultish way. And so that was an inspiration for this. And we did in our company take a retreat to the one hotel. Oh my gosh. But nobody died and it was not like this. Being in that environment where you have a schedule and everybody is brainstorming but then everybody goes out and you're seeing your colleagues drunk. I mean, is I was there being like, this needs to be a book. Like, this is so funny. And of course then I had to add the element of like, the company is probably fraudulent and someone is probably dead just because why else are you gonna read a beach read if that's not in there? Unless there's some big rom com element that you didn't see coming. Exactly. And that's not that's not my thing. I remember the first time I I was working at Idealab after college for a couple years. And when we had to go on a a retreat to the CEO, the New York based office that we ended up I started when there were, like, 25 employees, then we grew and grew. And then I moved to New York, and we took the New York CEO's office. It's a long story. I meant this to be two seconds. But, anyway, we went to his house on, like, Exit 60 of the LAE or something, and we all had to be in bathing suits. And I was like, this is mortifying. I was 22 or something. I was like, I I don't wanna be in a bathing suit in front of my colleagues. I don't wanna have them be in bathing suits. Like, this is too much information. And it's, like, stuck in my brain, like, the the cringe factor of the whole day. Seriously, I think there's even a bathing suit element in this where it's like, and also they play sports together and then someone has an internal mog thinking like, why do I need to see my CEO, like, with sweat down his shirt? Why do I need to see my, like, colleague with her boobs bouncing up and down? This is not professional, you know, but so many companies do it. And so I think that that is such a funny thing to get into, the idea that you're seeing these people that really you just work with in this other way. It's it's like summer camp. It's, like, so you can't escape. And it's all day long, and everybody's tired. And it's it's just a weird experience. Although I say this, and I realize, actually, we do that for my company now, but it's all women. It's really different. I don't know. Was It the guys. Somehow the guys involved. Right? I mean, your book too, it's like, you know, how risque like, what who is the character with the bleached blonde hair? It's like the British Olive. Yeah. Yeah. With her, like, racier outfit for the beach and then like the guys running and they're like, Ew, it's like an Ew moment, right? I do think, you know, people have experienced that. And even going out, you know, at night for a happy hour with your colleagues, you get some of that where it's these worlds crossing. You know, again, retreats are an even more intense version of that. But, yeah, I did have fun with that element of, like, seeing your colleagues in a different and slightly unappealing way. Oh my gosh. Tell me about the cover design and all of that. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to quints. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. 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[18:26]Emma Rosenblum: So we, well, actually this is, we had a different title for this book, a different working title till very last minute. The title was Billion Dollar Babies because it was playing on the idea of like, people are all infant. But then last minute we thought maybe that title could read weirdly. Like, is it about prostitutes? Like it was, there's something in it where I think it wasn't tracking. And the way that we've figured out that it wasn't quite right was that when we were trying to design a cover around it, like, couldn't. Like, there were so many different options and nothing really felt right with the title. So then we decided to go with Very Bad Company, and we did lean into this idea of using the word bad again in a nice in book. I think for my third, we will also use the word bad. So if you have any ideas Okay. Let me know because I'm out of ideas. It's like after I named my two children, was like, I don't That's it. Yeah. I'm done. Yeah. I was like, I don't even know. Like, you're nothing because we already used all the names. And so with this, as soon as we had this title, we got a few sketches back for the cover, and then this cover just, like, really stood out. I think it's just evocative of going somewhere tropical, but there's still, like, an ominous element to it. You're looking up at the airplane and it's flying as like that airplane is gonna crash. Then it also has the, you know, the palm trees from Miami and we really liked the color. So I think I really love this cover. I love it. No, it's so fun. It just totally, it pops so much. I love it. And I think it works with Bad Summer People also, like they're sort of a nice duo and that book just came out in paperback. So I think our publisher is hoping, you know, it's like a sort of one, two thing where if you liked the first book, can get that in paperback and then you can buy the second book. Perfect for the beach bag for the summer. I hope so. I'm nervous. No. Don't be nervous. It's really good. What is the next book before I can give you a title idea? Well, you'll be able to help me with this because it's about moms in New York City. Oh, no way. Downtown, not uptown. So it's more like the Tribeca scene. And there's a school down there that's kind of like a friend's seminary, fancy private school, but more kind of relaxed than the uptown schools. And there are these three friends. They've known each other forever. Their husbands founded a company together and they kind of rule the social scene of this world. And they throw these theme parties that everybody goes to and dresses up and spends enormous amounts of money on. And then the first day of school, there's a new mom in town and she's actually from Miami. And they see her and she's kind of this, you know, a horse of a different color. She doesn't look like them. She doesn't act like them. She's divorced. She's mysterious. And then once she sort of becomes accepted as part of the group, very bad, weird stuff starts happening to everybody and they don't know why. And again, it's all sort of dark comedy. And then you sort of figure out as the book goes on, what's happening and why. Is it her? Is it one of the other mothers? Is it having to do with the school somehow? So it's that kind of intrigue. So I don't know. It's like the working title is bad friends, but like bad moms. I don't know. It's because it's not about mom. It's not about being a mother. So that doesn't really I don't want the word mom in it. So something with friends, who knows? I'm still I still can't get past 60,000 words. I'm trying really hard. That's why I wrote two sets of acknowledgments in my latest book. I was like, it contributes to the word count. It's getting in my original thing. I'm like, I'll just do this twice. I'll make my acknowledgements really long. You're like, 10,000 words, check. I know. Find it very hard to get to 60,000 words too. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm there, but I'm stuck. I'm just really busy right now with the promotion of this book and my full job. You know, I have two kids. I think once I make a breakthrough, I'll just be able to finish it pretty quickly. But it's just that point of like, which way do I go? Like, how do I get to the end? I'll do it. Does somebody die? I don't think so. I think some people almost die in this one. I don't wanna, you know, the death is a little bit of a crutch. And also the thing is with my, and now I don't want give anything away for my second book, but I don't want to kill people that have kids. It's like too dark for my kinds of books. It's not like, that's not funny to me. And so nobody dying is funny. Like, nobody is funny. It's like, I specifically in these books make the people who die are like, you know, they're, all their relatives are also dead. There can't be anyone who's sad about this. So these are all mothers. They all have family like, it's it just wouldn't be I think it would lose the sort of comedy if somehow that happened because that's really actually kind of dark. So no. But I do think that some people, like, are go to the ER. Maybe it should be bad pickup lines. That's good. But would anyone who's not a mom, like, immediately get that? But that's really good. But it but it wouldn't have to be because it could also be about dating. I know. So, like, people of all ages would be interested. That's not bad. That's pretty good. I know. It needs to be some kind of, like, play on that. Double meaning. Then maybe at the end, there could be something that brings that in, you know? Maybe I know. Something happens in the book Well, bad stuff, I already have scenes where bad stuff happens when they're picking up. Yeah. I'm not going to spoil it, but because the book's not even written. Let's talk about this book that is written. Okay. Sorry, sorry, sorry. No, no, no. It's fine. I'm like you. I feel like I you know, you have to, I don't know, to stay I I don't know. I I didn't mean to suggest that talking about your current book was boring, but I was about to say, like, I get bored easily too. I like, like, thinking about, you know, games where you have to, like, figure things out. So, anyway. Okay. So, what are you gonna ever take a character, like, from this book and put insert into the next book? And was there anyone hidden in this book from the last book that maybe I'm not? No, not this one, but already in this because the worlds are so different. I thought about putting in like a little, you know, Easter egg somewhere, but then I was like, But the next one has a callback to the first one. So there is like a New York City world where they're sort of in competition with one of the schools that Lauren has kids in from Bad Summer People. But she's not in it, but there's just the idea that these are people in those two books where their worlds actually would probably cross over in some ways. But no, not really. You know, this is pretty standalone, but it just has the same vibe and it has the same structure. Honestly, it's like, you know, a bad thing happens and you rewind to the beginning of the retreat and then kind of go from there. I think the third one will probably have a similar structure and vibe in terms of having multiple POVs. And then I think I'll switch it up after those three. I think this will be a trio and then I will go somewhere else. Who knows? Rom coms. Just kidding. Really dark, weird rom com. When is it that you do this? I mean, your job, your kids, know, when do you find time to do this? I think that's why I'm stuck at 60,000 words for this point. No. I do this during the day in between meetings. So Really? I have to. I can't have I don't have any other time. I can't like, there's no way I can't get up early. My kids are up at 05:52. And I when I get home and after they're in bed, I'm just dead. I can't do it. I've already had, like, a full day of work and of them and everything. And so I just, zone out and watch half hour of TV and then just go to bed. So I have to do it during the day. And I can't really work on weekends either because that day is really my only time with my children. So I carve out. I'll, like, block my calendar for an hour or two hours, like, here and there. So nobody you know, it's and I'm the boss, so it doesn't matter. Like, I'm allowed to just sort of do whatever I want. So if I need sometimes I'll take a couple hours in the morning, or if I if I have a light afternoon, I'll kind of block off starting at four, and I'll write from four to six. And then just it's open on my computer at all times. So I'm always I'll toggle back to it and just continue to try to add a couple 100 words because it all adds up. It does. And if you're doing it for long enough, I've gotten through the drafts. So that's just kind of how I do it. It's not ideal, I will That's a really good tip, just to have the document open, just to have it there, because maybe you can add to it. I feel, like, too precious. Like, I need, like, six hours of a time block, and I just can't find that time. No. I would never be able to find six hours. So I do go back sometimes and fix stuff, but it's easier once you have some stuff to go back and fix it. You need to at least get to a certain point. And that to me is what you can't be precious about, or at least I can. And again, I'm not writing the great American novel here. This is plot driven. It's funny. For me, the hardest part is the plot. The actual atmosphere of the books and the characters of the books are just easy. I could write like 100 characters like that. But it's more just about I'm not like, I wasn't trained as fiction. Like, I don't really so it's that kind of, like, how slow does the reveal have to be? How do you give people enough incentive to get to the next chapter? What there have to be cliffhangers? You know? How do you have an ending that's satisfying? And, I, you know, I haven't nailed it for either of my books, but I'm hoping that as I go and continue in this, like, art form, I'll get better just like I did get better at writing magazine articles. It's all sort of this part to me feels mechanical rather than just having you you have to have a certain voice. You have to have sensibility. You know, you have to be a good writer in some ways, but then it's like the rest of it to me does feel like trainable. And so I need to if I did have time, if this was my only job, I would be like reading, you know, so many books and just like studying how to do that better because I do think that's the thing where I really do need to just, like, be better at that. But it's it's the it's the other part that I have that is, I can write a dialogue. I can and, like, that kind of thing is something it's not it's not hard for me. The it's the other stuff. But maybe if you had too much time, you wouldn't be able to do that either. That is totally true. Yeah. Because some because, you know, when I have blocked off a couple of times I've taken vacation, you know, in quotes, where I've just taken a week off my meetings and been like, okay, I have to get some chapters done in this draft because it's due at a certain point and they're paying me for it. And I haven't you don't like come away with like, oh, I wrote 20,000 words. You're like, oh, I wrote 2,000 words in six days. Like, what is wrong with me? So it is that weird thing where if I work better under pressure, if I have this amount of time and I have to get a certain thing done, I will get it done rather than the sort of, you know, writerly thing where people, like, go on walks for inspiration. Like, I just don't think I'd be able to accomplish what I needed to. But who knows? Maybe maybe I could do it. But for now, I I don't. There are all different ways, and that's why they're all different types of books. Otherwise, all the books would be the same. You know? Like, not everybody wants a novel that was conceptualized on a walk and it's, like, sprawling and do know I mean? Like, that's good. Sometimes I wanna read that. Sometimes I don't wanna read that. Right? You need all the different inputs, I think. What is, like, the main thing about being a chief content officer that people might not know? What does that mean? So that means it's a good question. All of the content, which is, again, I hate the word content. I always say this in interviews. It's such a lame, soulless word that didn't even exist when I got into media. But now it does, obviously. So every article, every photoshoot, everything that we put together that goes on the site or goes on our social channels or is in a magazine, because now we do print for Nylon and we also own W Magazine, is created by teams and I am their top manager. So there's a team for Russell, there's a team for Nylon, there's a team for elite daily, we have a bunch of parenting sites. They all the top people of those sites report up into me. And so I'm working with them daily to not in the nitty gritty, but to figure out what are the big picture moments for each of their sites and each of their magazines, to weigh in on celebrity covers I'm really involved in because that is something that I've just done throughout my career. And it's just more high level and it's easier for me to make those decisions. I work very closely with our creative director who is running all the visuals across all of our sites. So what does everything look like? And I think that's the thing that people don't quite realize about, not just regular media, but digital media too. Everything has a look, everything has an image, everything. We're thinking still about where are we placing the headlines, who's the photographer on this celebrity photo shoot, what stylist are we using? So there's just a lot of elements that go into creating something that maybe you wouldn't be aware of. You would just be like, someone wrote an article and it's there. And then it's just like, there's so much other stuff that's going on behind the scenes. Who's booking our, you know, celebrities? Who's booking just our politicians that we're doing interviews with? Like, there's there all those people are on separate teams and then everything reports up into me. And so then my job is to make sure that everything's running smoothly, that people aren't losing their minds in whatever way, which they generally are, but that's okay. That's every job. That's every corporation. That what we're doing is good. And so I'm that's my, like, content role is to make sure that everything is top quality and also the right writers and the right look and all of that stuff. And then I also work with our other executives to say, okay, well our budget is this. This is what we're gonna be doing over the next year. This is how you guys can best sell it and to work with our revenue team because this is how media companies work is that the content is produced and then the revenue team sells it. And so we have to be working hand in hand to be creating all this stuff so that they are taking it out to the market, to the advertising market to sell it to different advertisers. And we also produce events and it's the same thing because the events are our brand events. So it's like, the brand is coming to life in a certain way. What does that look like? What kind of sponsors do you want for that? What celebrities can we get to go there? So it's all tied. So there's a lot of moving parts. But, you know, I still feel that my job is easier now than it was when I was an editor or a writer. Because having a blank page or getting a piece of copy from another writer that is like a mess or whatever is so much harder to me and is real work. And what I do now is I run a thing. And I tell people, Yes, no, I like that, I don't like that. But when you have a blank page, it's just you. You got to do it. So that is something that I've liked about this second thing I'm doing writing fiction because it's like the pressure's back on me. It's a challenge, but in a good way. And if I can do it, that shows me that I'm not just you know, out of the game. You know? I love it. Wow. That was so interesting. Emma, thank you so much. Thank Thank you for the enjoyment of Very Bad Company. I hope you're planning a big retreat to the one hotel. That would be really fun. No. We went to them for a partnership, and they said no. And I have a feeling it's because there's a lot of bad stuff that happens in the hotel. Maybe. Yeah. The hotel comes off nicely. I thought so too. It makes me wanna go. Yeah. I'm gonna go back to them and say that. Think so. Yeah. Anyway, let's do a thing together. Well, like, you know You have to do a thing. Otherwise, they look like, why wouldn't they do a thing? Anyway, and then very bad pickup lines. I really think that's good. That is good. I agree. That's clever. Okay. Good luck. To be continued. All right. Bye, Ava. Thank you so much. So good to talk. Talk to you later. Thanks, Amy. Thanks so much. Bye. Thanks

[35:02]Zibby Owens: for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social Zippy Owens and at Zippy Readers.