Zibby's Book Club pick! Ann Leary, I'VE TRIED BEING NICE: Essays

[1:33]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I am also a newly minted USA Today bestselling author of the novel blank. I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at zibbymedia.com or follow me on social at Zibby Owens or join the community at Zibby Readers. Anne Leary is the author of I've Tried Being Nice Essays. This is actually one of the Zibby's book club picks, so I hope you will join us for our book club discussion. You can find all the details on zibbymedia.com. Anne Leary is the New York Times bestselling author of a memoir and four novels, including The Good House. Her work has been translated into 18 languages, and she has written for The New York Times, Plowshares, NPR, Red Book, and Real Simple among other publications. Her essay, Rallying to Keep the Game Alive, was adapted for Prime Video's television series Modern Love. Her novel, The Good House, was adapted as a motion picture starring Sigourney Weaver and Kevin Kline. She lives with her husband in New York. Visit her online at annleery.com. Today, we have Ann Leary. I'm so excited. This is a book club pick of mine. I'm obsessed with this book. I've tried being nice essays. Congratulations.

[2:54]Ann Leary: Thank you, Zibby. So awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I'm so excited that you've picked my book for your book club. It's awesome, and it's very exciting now to be on your podcast. This is my first actual interview for this book. So Oh. What better person to do it with? Perfect. Thank you.

[3:12]Zibby Owens: So what first of all, I just I saw the cover and the title and all of it, and I just got it right away. And I was like, I'm gonna love this. This is this speaks to me as it will for so many other people. Tell listeners what

[3:24]Ann Leary: this is about. Okay. What yeah. So this is an essay collection, and I usually write fiction. And so but these are some essays that have been previously a few have been previously published, and a few were actually prompted. I had a blog years ago that doesn't exist anymore, but I still had you know, so I had some of the things I blogged about I used as prompts for these essays. But the title comes from the title essay, which is called I've Tried Being Nice, and it's about a little dispute I had with one of my neighbors and her dogs coming on our property. And, you know, I it's a and I'm a lifelong people pleaser, as I think a lot of women are. And I finally reached a certain age where I realized I don't have everyone doesn't have to love me more than anyone else. They can act I can live with people being, like, slightly fond of me or even, like, wholly hating my guts. I don't know. That I don't know if I can live with. But I did have a dispute with my neighbor one day, and it ended up I had I drove up to her in my pajamas, in my car, while she was walking her dogs, rolled down the window. And after many encounters with her where I was like, Oh, hi. It'd be so nice if you didn't if your dogs weren't on my property, my dogs finally, I rolled down my window and said, Look, I've tried being nice. And the response from this woman, it was as if I had, like, pointed a gun. She was kind of staggered backwards, and she started, you know, panicking a little. And I realized what a powerful thing it is to suddenly stand your ground. But the rest of the essays, there are that theme of, you know, kind of trying to get along with the people, trying to have everyone, you know, pleased, and also reaching a certain age. They're kind of throughout the essays, but the essays touch on everything from, you know, taking ballroom dancing lessons with my husband to empty nesting. You know, I write a little bit about my childhood, about my growing up. And so, you know, I had fun had fun writing the essays. And so I'm so I'm so glad that that you like them and that I'm hoping others will too when they read.

[5:25]Zibby Owens: You have so you start off with this scene with the dogs and being nice. And then at the end of the collection, you get to a point where you're you and a friend are sort of talking about this tennis Oh, that's yeah. This tennis companion, your devil is oh, my you're so funny. And I play tennis, and this was, like, the funniest scene ever. And then you're walking with your friend, and you're like, I I think I've realized the problem. I'm just too nice. Yeah. And I would I totally believe that. I I had been you know, at first, I had been savaging this other tennis player to my friend as we were walking. What you know, she's a cheater. She's a poor sport. And then I said, you know, Kate, my I think my problem is I'm just too nice. And she, for

[6:04]Ann Leary: some reason, just was doubled over in laughter, couldn't breathe. And I I I was like, What? I thought something, you know, crazy had happened that I hadn't seen. And it turned out she was laughing at me because she was shocked that I thought I was too nice. That I apparently, one of my I have problems. One is not that I'm too nice according to my friend. But, yeah, that was funny. I do There is I wrote a tennis essay for Modern The Modern Love column. Yes. That's in this book, in a longer version, and I do write a little bit about tennis. And I do think you can find out anything you wanna know about a person on the tennis court, probably on the basketball court, you know, any kind of area where you're

[6:42]Zibby Owens: in competition. You kinda see who a person really is. Totally. I fell I fell in love with my husband on the tennis court. Oh, how sweet. Oh, I love that. He was actually my tennis pro. Oh. We can go into that. Yes. Oh.

[6:55]Ann Leary: Wow. But I I can off camera. I bet you're really a good tennis I'll never play you. I'm not I'm a I I play all the time. I'm the worst tennis player you've ever seen. I can't. Can't. No. If you're playing that much, you can't do that. I'm I just can't get better at tennis.

[7:09]Zibby Owens: I disagree. I'm sure you've gotten better. You have another essay in here that I literally laughed for I was, like, crying laughing about your empty nesting. Right. So, in most literature and contemporary fiction and memoir, mean, empty nesting is presented as this, like, horror. Like, I've been, you know, this I have this ticking clock. Right? Like, oh my gosh, the sadness and all of this stuff. And you have turned that on its head and made it so fun and so full of personality.

[7:42]Ann Leary: Talk a little bit about how empty nesting has been for Yeah. So, I mean, I've been an empty nester now for a few years. But when yeah. Yeah. Probably, you know, you might going through this already, but, like, leading up to especially my I have two children, a son and a daughter. And when my son was, you know, close to graduating from high school and going off to college, I really had a hard time. I was very, very sad and worried. And, you know, then in this essay, I write about dropping him off and then, you know, two years later, dropping my daughter off at college. And, you know, it was very I actually was, you know, crying when we left her. And then I my husband pulled over, I thought, because I was crying. And then finally, was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I heard this noise from him. It's like And I looked over, and the man's head was buried in His face was buried in his hands. He was sobbing so hard. So anyway, we got home. I was making dinner. I had the TV on while I cooked, and he came in and did his automatic shut the TV off at dinnertime. And I said the words my husband had been waiting twenty years to hear, which was, Let's watch TV while we eat. Because when the kids were growing up, you know, we didn't watch TV even on school nights because they had so much homework, but we had family dinners. And so the essay is about all the other things we found out we had changed about ourselves to be good parents. And, you know, I'm sure many people are born, are naturally very conscientious and polite and have excellent manners and don't swear and, don't gossip. But we're not really like that, but we had to act like that for twenty years because our we knew our kids deserved better than us the minute they were born. And so, no, we didn't swear in front of them, and we, you know, had nice meals and family meals. And then within days of them being gone, it was like like a hedonist temple. We were, like, eating in front of the TV with our, you know, like, hands. Like, we didn't say, could you please pass the butter? We'd just, like, lunge for it. You know, we our kids couldn't bear. I'm sure your kids are the same. Like, if my kids saw me in my underwear, they would, you know, make throw up noises. And, you know, I I like, the first couple weeks, I'd if I'd go to the laundry room to get my clothes, I'd be like, oh, you know, covering myself. But, you know, I realized the one person in the house that liked to see me in my underwear was, like, running up the stairs. So please. And so it's just about that, about, like, you know, finding out there was this bright side to the to that transition in my life. You know, it's I didn't see it as it was coming up, I didn't see it as a transition. Saw it as, at the end, the end of this, you know, wonderful family, this stage, and it wasn't the end. And during COVID, and I didn't write about COVID really in these essays, but we had three adults in our house for a year and a half. They came back. And so we were like, where's that empty nest? That we loved.

[10:37]Zibby Owens: No. You were so funny. You're like, when they come back again, we stop being Yeah. Like naked and swearing and, you know, all this stuff. But but they kind of know that while they're not there Right. You're you're having, like, this alternate lifestyle. Yeah. We're being our selves, which is not very, you know, not the most condemned commendable way to be. But do you think maybe your kids have some of all that in you and would think it was hilarious?

[11:02]Ann Leary: I mean, are your kids. Do you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean, certainly, as they got older, as we all do, you know, you do start not worrying about your language, and then they stop worrying about theirs. Everyone starts kind of becoming adults together. Right. Know? Right? So but I think, yeah, I do, you know, I think I mentioned in the essay, was, you know, if I was on the phone with my sister gossiping and my daughter walked in the room, wouldn't, I'd stop, not just because I didn't want her to hear what I was saying, but I didn't want her to hear me saying it because gossiping isn't nice. Mhmm. Yeah. I don't wanna set that example. And then, you know, when she was gone, it was, you know, full bore ahead. Oh.

[11:41]Zibby Owens: You write a lot about home owning, many people can relate to, and the raccoons who took up residence. No. Bats. Bats that took up residence. Bats or raccoons? Both. You had bats on you, right, in one of Oh, the my gosh. Yes. So we had this so we lived on this you know, our kids were raised on this little

[11:57]Ann Leary: kind of a farm because it was, you know, we had some acreage up in Northwestern Connecticut, and but we're not really, you know, we weren't we didn't know about the bat situation. We had no if you live in the country and you have a chimney, close it in the summer and also get a cap on it. Anyway, we had a series of bat invasions. It was embarrassing how many times bats came in our house. And it turns out, you know, my husband is really pretty brave in most situations, but if you've ever seen the African Queen, and, you know, the main character is afraid of leeches. He's in the water like, My husband is terrified of bats. I didn't know that until we had one fly in our house, and he tried to trample our children running away from it. And so, yeah, I did write about one time, I was sitting at a table where we think the bat must have spent the night, like, hanging upside down from the table, but I was wearing, like, these paper thin pajama bottoms. And when I stood up, my daughter, who was probably eight or nine, said, Mom, mom, there's a bat on your pajamas. And I it's so weird because afterwards, we played this over, and for some reason, I didn't look down, I was so terrified, and I said, looked in her eyes, and I said, Is it real? And she said, Yes. And then we screamed. I looked down, and, like, bats, they have this, like, half human, half pig face, and they kinda smile in this, like, maniacal way, and they're horrifying. And so I, you know, ran through the house and, Oh, you gosh. Yes. So I wrote about that. Then Oh, and it also kind of, yeah, there was sort of a Grey Gardens component to that.

[13:30]Zibby Owens: And you left then that house and you were moving out that

[13:34]Ann Leary: was also sort of this bittersweet moment. Yeah, it's so funny. So I usually have, since I write fiction, usually actresses narrate my books, but I was the narrator of this because, as you know, you write a memoir or, you know, you write, it's better to have the author read it. But, embarrassingly, I kept getting choked up, actually, with that chapter and another one. And the poor guy who was producing it, he was, like, not moved at all. Was kinda like, Can you stop doing that? I was like, Why am I getting choked up at my own thing? But, yeah, it was leaving this, you know, we needed to downsize, and we wanted a smaller house, we sold it, and it was kind of bittersweet. But the great thing was then we love where we live now so much more, and I wrote about that too. We bought a house from a woman who's a big gardener, and she had a little lean to greenhouse in attached to the house, and I've never known anything about plants. And now I truly have an indoor jungle. My kids and my husband think there's a problem. It's I'm a whole I'm I'm a plant hoarder. But, you know, the house kind of made me want plants and made me find another thing I love, which I have many things I love, many hobbies, but that's a new one. The end of that chapter actually, like, made me cry. When Oh, you end it with Edelweiss. Let me see if I can Yeah. Well, the father of the woman we bought the house from is Richard Rogers of Rogers and Hart, Rogers and Hammerstein. Yep. Heard of him? Is it Hammerstein? Hammerstein? I thought it was Steen, but I can be wrong. So the yeah. So the father of the woman who we well, she was dead. Father a member of the family of the person we bought the house from, wrote Edelweiss and wrote many many famous

[15:17]Zibby Owens: songs for musicals. So Okay. So this is the end of that chapter. You said, I had googled missus Emery when we first moved here and was pleased to learn that her father had written the song, My Funny Valentine, which our friend Julie sang for my husband and me at our wedding. But now I wanted to know about Linda Rogers Emery, not her father. I read a few interesting profiles written about her and her obituary. I discovered that Mrs. Emery was loving and giving. She was philanthropic and creative, but she also struggled as I have with shyness and bouts of severe depression. Some quick math revealed that she moved here when she was about my age. The trees, the flowers, the gardens, and the greenhouse that lift my spirits each day had created had creating them lifted hers. I'm not into musicals and show tunes, but I heard the Rogers and Hammerstein show song Edelweiss around Christmas time last year. I was in my happy place, the local plant store, just browsing. The tune stuck with me. It's one of those songs that takes root. Later, I was singing it as I tried to rearrange some plants on my greenhouse deck to make room for my laptop. Like I said, I'm not really into spirituality or show tunes, but I got a little teary as I humsang to all my green darlings, my tender foundlings, and to the spirit of missus Emery too, blossoms of snow may you bloom and grow, bloom and grow forever. My

[16:28]Ann Leary: mom used to sing me that song going Yeah. To It's such a it's a really beautiful song. So yeah. They were playing when we were looking at, you know, they real estate I'm a real estate junkie. One of my books is about a real estate broker. And I I love real estate. I I show up at open houses. We're not in the market. I just That's literally part of my novel. Have Is to it? Say Yeah. She has, like, a whole secret Instagram thing because she goes to open houses all the time. Yeah. Open House Bandit. I'm, like, obsessed with going to open houses. Yeah. Yeah. No. I just don't wanna move. I just wanna see everyone's house. Me too. So, like, you know, I you know, when I came in, I was, oh, so excited to see your house. But, yeah. So but when we were looking at this house, the brokers had they had, like, a little speaker, they were playing, you know, songs from The Sound of Music, and so we and then they could lay that into the father of the woman who owned this place was this famous composer. And it didn't enter into our decision to buy the house at all. But it does, you know, once you know something about that, it does kind of influence you. And I did write one thing that was exciting about this house is we moved in in the winter. And in the spring, she was such an avid gardener, these beautifully planted perennial beds started to bloom and she had orchestrated them, you know, almost like a choreographer. You know, it was like in the early spring, had the daffodils and the little other little early what are they called? I'm not afraid. Daffodils.

[17:52]Zibby Owens: Daffodils? No. They're like snow snowdrops?

[17:55]Ann Leary: Okay.

[17:56]Zibby Owens: See on my pig right here.

[17:58]Ann Leary: And then when those would start to die off, these irises would bloom, and it was, you know, it was like, you know, interstage right. The the lilies come, and then these go. And there was this crazy there were these beautiful big pots on the patio full of dirt. And I thought, you know, they should have really why did they leave us pots of dirt? I don't like, now we have to move them. But I'm glad we didn't because she had planted even those with beautiful perennials that, you know, it was like a beautiful surprise. She was she had died before the estate sold the house. So I just felt a connectedness to her through that. And that kind of inspired me to explore, you know, gardening and planting.

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[21:20]Zibby Owens: So your s your novels, I can get the word out. Your novels, The Good House, which you referenced already and which became a movie, which I saw, which was amazing. Oh, Thank So I'm be aware of that. And also, The Foundling, we talked Right. Yes. On this podcast before. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Your process for writing novels versus essays. Tell me about the difference

[21:42]Ann Leary: all and that. Well, it's interesting. I I'm usually working on a novel, so I'm often and you probably have experienced this too, where you're if you're writing fiction, you are in another world, especially writing historical fiction. And The Foundling is my one historical novel, and it takes place in 1927. And I just and I spent a lot of years working on that. So I was always in this I like to be in a happy in a way place, in a fantasy place. And I do write in this book. I moved a lot as a child. I think that's why I had moved changing schools a lot. I often didn't have friends right away. And I just was very much into go kind of escaping into fantasy. And so I like right now, I'm working on trying to get a new novel started, and that's a hard thing for me. I don't know, like, for you what your process is, but I usually, at this point, am kind of auditioning narrators. So, I know the story of you know, I I don't know completely the story, I have an idea of the story, but I'm not sure who should tell it. And so for example, the Good House, originally, there was a diff the main character was supposed to be this woman, Rebecca, and I would write it. And the only time the it wasn't working. The only time the book came alive when I was when I was writing about this who was once a peripheral character, this hildy, this real estate broker, who was this kind of real New Englander and real townie, and I knew this character very well. And I actually really every time I was writing about her, the book came alive. And then finally, I realized she had kind of hijacked that book. Was like, okay, you tell the story then. And whose point of view was it from originally? It was actually kind of a a close third person. So, it was about this other Rebecca, who was the one who was married to the rich man. And anyway, yeah, so then the story became about Hilde. So, I'm hoping Right now, I have many failed auditions of characters, and because that's how I see it. It's sort of I know whose story it is. If I can find that I understand a character well enough that they can, you know, do anything, and I would know how this character would react kind of thing. You know, felt like I told my editor at the time when I was working on The Good House, felt Hildy If my editor said, You know, we need to sing with Hildy on the moon, I would know exactly what Hildy would do Mhmm. In space. So I think that's a really important thing. With my writing, like to develop fully develop characters, and then the plot kind of comes from that.

[24:08]Zibby Owens: What about you? Do do you write, like, do you do you plot out? Do you like, what Well, yeah. Because I've I've had sold the last two novels on proposal to my editor, so I have to do, like, a 60 page thing. Oh, it's hard to sell novels on proposal. Yeah. I don't know. It's I I need the I need the But then I go off the outline. Right. Right. But I always But I start with the person. Right. And the story is sort of Actually, that's not true. Is that true? No. It's not true. You you start But with the idea and the person are, like, interlinked. Right. And I guess you could tell the story from some other perspective, but not really. Do you outline and then

[24:44]Ann Leary: do you, like, do you know how it's gonna end usually? Okay. Yeah. That's key, I think. I often don't. You don't know how to That's what I struggle struggle with. With. And it's good to know where it's going. I know at some point, but I often when I'm starting, I don't know. And sometimes I have an idea for an ending that ends up not being the end. Well, I changed I changed it too. Yeah. Sometimes it changes. Yeah. Sometimes. I mean, I've only, you know, I haven't done. The books that didn't work didn't have an outline. So I've just had having an outline is probably helpful Yeah. Yeah. For me. I think it's very important. I think also, you know, I'm not I haven't written 8,000,000 novels like other people who are like know how to do it like the back of their hands. So I feel like I need these color by numbers sort of states. Yeah. Yeah. You have to feel your way. And each one, I think you you get a little better and things that were hard get easier, I think. So And where do you like publishing essays the most?

[25:32]Zibby Owens: What do you mean? In, like, my Which means So so when you're writing essays now, like, what is the best place for you? Where should people Like, where should people find your essays? Oh, okay. Where,

[25:42]Ann Leary: you know yeah. Where is Yeah. Well, so these some of these essays were previously published. Right. I a couple were in Real Simple. Real Simple had I don't know. Do they still have great essays? They used to have people I loved Real Simple Essays because it's a beautiful magazine, but they the personal essay was it was the only one I don't know. Yes. Yes. I always liked liked that. So a couple of them were in Real Simple. There was The Modern Love piece. There were a couple that were in anthology. Somebody just asked me if I'd write for an anthology, and so, you know, I got permission to reprint those, but most of them are original. And they really were kind of I wanted to keep them within this kind of theme, not really, you know, too closely connected as a theme, but just of, you know, reaching a certain age, finding out who I really am, and, you know, feeling I can, you know, claim this space as my own, and I hope you like me. If you don't, I will die. Are there any, like, germs of ideas for stories that almost that could be part of the collection but you didn't write or that you decided not to include? Yeah. I actually have, you know, one chapter about my dogs. I mentioned my dogs, but I I've always thought I should just do a memoir of all all our animals because my husband and I are and my kids, we're all just animal nuts. We've had a lot of pets. Right now, we have four dogs. We have that's about three too many right now. We have two on very unhinged rescues. And but they're kind of our life. And so but I I do like I'm obsessed with animal behavior. And so I I thought I'd like to do a whole collection of just that. But, there were essays I wrote that just weren't right for this this collection that I might put in another one. So, yeah. But I tend to, as far as where I'm writing, this so I usually write on my bed, like, propped up like an otter, like, with my computer on my, like, on my chest. And I just find it comfortable to write like that. I I like to write really early in the morning, so I get up between five and six, and I'm really the brightest then, and then and the most confident. And then as the day goes on, my confidence wanes until I actually if I look at something I wrote, my face turns scarlet, and I wanna die. And then the next morning, it looks fine again. So I write at home. But this book, I wrote in my local library much of it. I we have a great library in my town, and, you know, I wrote there, and one, to be to have quiet, but also, I don't they do have Internet there, but it's very embarrassing to be shopping on Amazon in the library. Like, the people who work there, I've done events there, so they know I'm an author. So I just don't op I just work because I don't wanna be seen, like, buying, you know, sneakers. Like Maybe it's just for my daughter. In stupid places that I like to go on the internet. So, I think that's why I liked writing this in the library. And I love libraries.

[28:45]Zibby Owens: Plus, now you can say you wrote it in the library and that sounds good.

[28:48]Ann Leary: -Yeah. -You sound very scholarly and -It's actually makes the book sound smarter. -Yes. -Yes. -It Instead makes the of writing it, you know, in my bed like an otter. Not quite as literary as one might think.

[29:02]Zibby Owens: So for the book club members and people out there who are reading the book, what should they know as of going into it? Let's just say they haven't started it yet. Is there anything you want that like, what do you want them to take away at the end? I think I hope people will find it relatable.

[29:17]Ann Leary: I think that it is I try you know, I hope they'll take away well, many things. But one thing I think, the people pleasing is something I kind of go back to. Some of it comes from, you know, just growing up a certain way or during a certain era. And also, there's a lot of alcoholism in my family, and I have in I'm in recovery, and I've written a lot about that. I actually write an essay about that in the book. But a lot of people pleasing is about, you know, alcoholism, and when you're actively drinking, you just, you know, you're kind of in this spiral of or in this cycle of, like, shame, then wanting people to like. Anyway, so just kind of vestiges of that remain when you stop drinking. So that was part of it. I think anyone I talk to about it, people relate to that, especially women. I do think and I actually have read that women, we are kind of wired from primitive times to want to engage with other women. And that's why women look each other in the eye. Because when we were kind of tribal, primitive people, we would need the other women to like us because our children would be safer. And men needed to go and hunt, and they didn't need that. So, I think some of it just is natural. And then but once, in our modern world, it's like one of those many things in human behavior that we you know, it's like why we don't have a tail anymore. We need all the women to love us so much, but we do, I think. It even goes back to tennis. When I play tennis mixed doubles, I've noticed men I'm always like looking at the people's faces, right, across the court. Yep. And I should be looking at the ball. Know? Men look at the ball because they're kind of hunting and motivated. You mentioned about women saying sorry. Like, I'm always like, sorry, sorry, sorry. And men are just like, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So there's this kind of thing, I don't know. And then, and I didn't touch on Karens at all, because I would you know, but there's this fine line, you know? You wanna you don't wanna be a total, like, kick me, Charlie. You know, here but, like, there's so much and maybe because of the internet, it seems like there's so much more, there's so many very entitled people who are who should be more people pleasing, more considerate. Know, there's a fine line. I certainly wouldn't wanna be a person who isn't considerate, but I want to it's kind of a waste of time when one does apologize too much. It kind of it can be it can get in your way a little bit, and people find it like, can you just you know, it's like the dog that is always kind of trying to get you to eat that and stuff. Yes.

[32:04]Zibby Owens: Yes. And I should have mentioned a whole section on, you know, when you went to the resort and you had the drink with a little bit of rum in it and you're like, maybe I can do this now after all that time. Maybe it was just a cold and, you know, blah blah blah. And then you're like, oh, no. Wait. This is why Right. I can't do this. Have you read Drunkish by Stephanie Wilder Taylor?

[32:23]Ann Leary: No. Drunkish? Drunkish. I can't remember. I usually read most drinking memoirs, but no. It came out this past year. I'll see if have a copy here to give you. It's sort of similar because she's like, oh, no. I can do it. Right. Like, I can get away with this. Right. And it wasn't until she's like, well Yeah. Now I remember. Yeah. It's funny. So my editor, when this book was, you know, in the process of being editing, she said, you know, there's a whole thing now of, it cracks me up to even say it, of people being sober curious. Yeah. It's so funny. And I was like, wait, what? I'm I'm I'm like social drink cure I wanna be a social drinker, and that's all I've ever tried to be, and most alcoholics, we want that. It's, you know, most people, get drunk every now and then, like, have their evening drink, and we wanna be like you. But I, you know, just I was born you know, the first time I drank, I I had a full blackout. It just, you know so yeah. But that that essay was I did try to become a social drinker after fourteen years of not drinking, and then that it was a failed experiment. I don't drink anymore. And now it's been another fourteen years of me not drinking or longer of me not drinking again, which I'm a very happy person when I don't drink. You know,

[33:29]Zibby Owens: day and night. I'm just yeah. Yeah. Excellent. So Okay. Well, Anne, thank you so much. I've tried being nice. Of my favorites. Laughed so hard. I'm so glad. So I mean, everyone is gonna love this book, and people will be passing it around. I can just feel it, you know, like like a deck of cards. So I hope

[33:49]Ann Leary: Thank you, Sabine. You're welcome. Thank you. Yay. Oh my god.

[33:55]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social Zippy Owens and at Zippy Readers.