Three-peat guest!! Lisa Barr, THE GODDESS OF WARSAW
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats,
[0:20]a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social at Zivi Owens,
[0:26]or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Lisa Barr is the author of The Goddess of Warsaw, a novel.
[0:34]She has been on this podcast several times,
[0:37]and over the course of the last couple of years has become a very close friend
[0:41]and I absolutely adore her.
[0:42]She happens to be in a huge advocate for Judaism
[0:46]and has been a very vocal force.
[0:48]Sivi, I must say, throughout everything that's happened since October 7th,
[0:52]but she is a true pioneer and warrior.
[0:55]Lisa is the New York Times best-selling author of Woman on Fire, The Unbreakable's,
[0:59]and the award-winning historical thriller, Fugitive Colors.
[1:02]Her latest historical thriller, The Goddess of Warsaw, just came out.
[1:06]In addition, Lisa served as an editor for the Jerusalem Post,
[1:09]managing editor of today's Chicago Woman, managing editor of Moment Magazine,
[1:13]and as an editor reporter for the Chicago Sun Times.
[1:16]Among the highlights of her career, Lisa covered the famous handshake
[1:19]between the late Israeli prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, and the late PLO leader, Yasser Arafat,
[1:24]and President Bill Clinton at the White House.
[1:26]Lisa has been featured on Good Morning America and today
[1:29]for her work as an author, journalist, and blogger.
[1:32]In exciting book news, Actors Sharon Stone is set to produce and star
[1:36]in the film adaptation of Woman on Fire,
[1:39]which was the New York Times bestseller, Lisa lives in the Chicago area
[1:42]with her husband and three daughters, AKA Drama Central.
[1:45]By the way, Lisa is going to be one of the 15, maybe even more than 15 authors
[1:50]who will be on panels and an event we're doing in Chicago on May 20th.
[1:55]It's an all-day event from 11 to 7,
[1:59]and you should definitely come.
[2:00]We're partnering with the American Writers Museum and going out to a nice lunch
[2:04]and having cocktail hour and then going to Madison Street Bucks,
[2:07]and it'll be really fun.
[2:09]Go to ziveymedia.com and look under gatherings and retreats
[2:13]to learn more about that, ziveymedia.com
[2:16]and get a ticket to come see Lisa in Chicago.
[2:19]I'll be moderating all the panels.
[2:21]Welcome, Lisa.
[2:22]Thank you so much for coming back on Moms.
[2:24]Don't have time to read books for what the third time now, third time.
[2:27]It isn't third time.
[2:28]And I was one of your original anthology writers,
[2:32]like way back, way before ziveyverse.
[2:35]That's true.
[2:36]Way before the ziveyverse.
[2:37]You were OG member.
[2:39]I feel like one of the first to come to events here.
[2:42]Totally.
[2:43]I'm so proud of you.
[2:44]Oh my gosh.
[2:45]Well, you've been an integral part of the whole thing.
[2:48]And I swear, the day you hit the New York Times list,
[2:51]like I was jumping in my kitchen.
[2:53]I was so excited for you.
[2:55]That was just, I don't know.
[2:56]I feel like it happened to me.
[2:58]It was so exciting when it happened to you.
[3:00]I was excited.
[3:01]I think you called me.
[3:02]It was like 11 30 at night.
[3:04]You're like crying.
[3:05]And I was just, it was a big moment.
[3:08]Oh, yeah.
[3:09]Oh, my gosh.
[3:10]Okay.
[3:11]Let's go to the goddess of Warsaw for a minute.
[3:13]Yes.
[3:14]The goddess of Warsaw.
[3:15]Please tell everyone what it's about.
[3:17]The latest congratulations.
[3:19]Thank you so much.
[3:20]So the goddess of Warsaw is about a world war two assassin.
[3:27]But this was not a woman born in assassin.
[3:29]She was born in actress.
[3:31]A young actress from a prominent family who did not so to speak
[3:37]or quote looked to as she actually was blonde, blue-eyed,
[3:41]a beautiful young woman.
[3:43]And really at the beginning of her career.
[3:47]And then the Nazis attacked Poland and her family.
[3:53]They with the rest of Warsaw's good Jews, which was the biggest
[3:58]Jewish community in the world was in Poland.
[4:02]We're sequestered and trapped inside a ghetto.
[4:07]And so she very quickly had to survive with those who were there
[4:12]that were left and needed to survive.
[4:14]There was no food.
[4:15]There was, you know, medicine.
[4:17]Everything that we take for granted was gone.
[4:20]And so she had to use her looks, her appearance, her acting ability,
[4:26]her intelligence in order to get outside of the ghetto and blend in
[4:32]and smuggle.
[4:33]So it began with smuggling.
[4:35]Then became, she became an assassin.
[4:38]And who twists and turns, she makes her way to America and rises
[4:44]to become Lena Browning.
[4:46]So she went from being a blonde ski to Lena Browning, leaving her past
[4:50]behind, but not really.
[4:52]So basically, she rises so high as a Hollywood actress that she uses
[4:59]her sets in order to continue her war against the Nazis who came
[5:05]to America and were living free and easy and hiding.
[5:10]And she was an assassin.
[5:12]So her job never ended throughout her career.
[5:16]And so it was for me.
[5:19]I literally threw in the whole kitchen sink.
[5:22]Everything I loved to write and read.
[5:25]And it was probably the most personal book.
[5:28]As you know, I'm a daughter of a Holocaust survivor.
[5:31]So it was very intensive writing this book, for sure.
[5:37]Wait, Lisa, can you share?
[5:39]I know because we're involved in all sorts of Jewish advocacy.
[5:44]Just like, yeah, yeah.
[5:45]And we're friends and whatever.
[5:46]But can you share with everybody else, your family's history
[5:50]and how this is so personal for you?
[5:52]So it's crazy.
[5:54]And I'm sure I'm not the only author who says this, but given this
[5:58]book is really a David versus Goliath, you know,
[6:02]Jews versus Nazis and really centered around the greatest uprising
[6:07]in Jewish history.
[6:09]It's crazy when I was editing this.
[6:11]And I'm going to get to your question.
[6:13]Yeah.
[6:14]Oh, eerily.
[6:15]And I started this book over two years ago, researching eerily
[6:18]relevant.
[6:19]This book is to today's events.
[6:22]And I would read through it in literally words and events
[6:26]that were happening.
[6:27]We're happening right now.
[6:28]It was like 1944 was 1924.
[6:32]And so for me personally, as a daughter of a Holocaust survivor,
[6:37]my dad was 13 years old when he survived with his immediate family,
[6:44]his grandparents and aunts and uncles, everyone perished in Auschwitz
[6:49]and his immediate family survived because they were from Poland.
[6:54]And they refused to become Russian citizens.
[6:57]The Russians sent them to Siberia and very much like that.
[7:01]I'm blanking on the Netflix series that's on right now,
[7:04]but very similar story to what's happening.
[7:07]So they came here and, you know, with nothing.
[7:10]And he rose to become a prominent ophthalmologist.
[7:13]And, you know, selling socks on Maxwell Street to put himself
[7:17]through medical school, you know, all the stories.
[7:20]And, you know, my grandma actually, I will always say she's my,
[7:25]was my very best friend.
[7:27]So she lost everything.
[7:29]But such a fighter, such a woman filled with joy.
[7:32]And she is the voice in my head.
[7:35]I'm sure you have a voice in your head.
[7:37]She's my voice.
[7:38]And she's the reason I write what I write and fight from what I fight for.
[7:44]And so this book is a little bit of a swan song to her.
[7:48]You know, just, I don't know, that fighter in me.
[7:51]And, you know, now more than ever,
[7:54]I feel happy that at least I can go on the road with this book as my book
[8:00]to take to, you know, wherever I go.
[8:03]Because my head space is all over the place right now.
[8:07]And so this, for me personally,
[8:11]this is very meaningful and important.
[8:14]And this is where we're at.
[8:16]It's a new crazy reality that's happening, I think.
[8:20]So, well, there's nothing like specificity in storytelling
[8:26]to make you feel and understand what other people are going through.
[8:30]Right? I mean, you have people, you can feel people,
[8:34]you know, wandering through sewers.
[8:37]Like, you can feel and smell.
[8:39]And the way you write is so, you know, place specific.
[8:42]So you're like, oh, wow.
[8:44]You know, and even that you have characters with regular,
[8:47]quote unquote, regular feelings.
[8:50]Right? Like, even though people were trying to escape
[8:53]and trying to survive,
[8:55]they still had crushes, they still had longing.
[8:58]And, you know, all of that was still part of it.
[9:02]How do you, how do you even deal?
[9:04]Like, where does that all come from?
[9:06]And tell me about that.
[9:08]Okay. So, so interesting when I was deep diving into the ghetto,
[9:13]you know, you just picture,
[9:15]picture like people starving, laying dead on the street.
[9:18]You know, just the images of dark, gray and black.
[9:21]But, I mean, the movie Cabaret,
[9:24]this was happening in the ghetto.
[9:27]There were five, there were symphonies.
[9:29]There were a Cabaret.
[9:31]There were a stand-up comedians.
[9:34]There were bars.
[9:35]People were meeting.
[9:36]People were getting dressed up.
[9:37]They were living normal lives.
[9:39]And in fact, I found that one of the women that I interviewed
[9:44]who survived the ghetto and who was in her 90s,
[9:48]she came from a very prominent family,
[9:50]and she said her father until he was taken.
[9:54]In the end, he was giving her French lessons.
[9:57]French lessons.
[9:58]What, why would you...
[10:00]to possibly have French lessons in the ghetto,
[10:02]but the reason is he wanted to give her a vision
[10:06]that she was gonna live.
[10:08]A vision of the future of, you know,
[10:11]that she was going to be part of the world,
[10:14]not trapped in this desolate, you know, disgusting ghetto
[10:18]at where, but that there was gonna be a future for her.
[10:21]And she survived five concentration camps
[10:24]at a beautiful family, all of those things,
[10:27]but really she never forgets, forgot the French lessons,
[10:31]her father made her, you know, learn so.
[10:34]So I think your question, people have crushes,
[10:38]people were having sex, people were, you know,
[10:41]girls were, you know, in love with, you know,
[10:44]the boy who was selling whatever the newspaper,
[10:47]it was just, and they were trying to forge
[10:50]a real life amid hell.
[10:52]And so, you know, I wanted to capture that as well,
[10:57]you know, it was the reality of what was happening there.
[11:01]And as I wrote the book, there were a lot of things
[11:05]that people will ask me, I mean, I have an author's note
[11:08]that I discussed some of the real life events
[11:11]that were captured in the book,
[11:13]but a lot of people would say, is this even real
[11:15]did this happen?
[11:16]And yeah, because as we know, if you survived,
[11:21]it's surviving through extraordinary experiences.
[11:25]It's not anything that's ordinary.
[11:28]The ordinary people achieved extraordinary experiences
[11:32]of survival.
[11:33]So it was crazy, but it was very fascinating
[11:38]to go deep, to deep dive into that part of history.
[11:42]I mean, looking back, we know that it was a step
[11:46]on the way to sort of mass extermination,
[11:48]but they didn't know that then, right?
[11:50]Like they imagine we were all taken somewhere,
[11:54]like would our thoughts and feelings,
[11:57]would we stop doing work?
[11:58]Like would you, I mean, but no, so that's exactly right.
[12:02]So they were told that these trains were,
[12:06]you were going to a beach town.
[12:07]Like they thought, bottom thought they were going like vacation,
[12:11]you know, and so, and the Nazis were brilliant
[12:15]at compartmentalizing and keeping it quiet until,
[12:19]you know, because no one survived basically to, you know,
[12:22]but there were people who escaped and then the story got out.
[12:26]And that was the really important having careers
[12:30]to deliver the message to the world.
[12:32]Unfortunately, very similar to what's going on now,
[12:35]a lot of the world, you know, they were anti-Semitic
[12:38]and they did not care, you know,
[12:40]but there were good people.
[12:42]There were, you know, wonderful caring polls
[12:45]who did save a lot of people
[12:48]and did go the extra mile at their own risk.
[12:52]And, you know, it's, you know,
[12:55]I know we've talked about this through different groups,
[12:58]but, you know, being this author that I am,
[13:01]historical fiction or historical suspense writer
[13:06]with a Holocaust type of brand, it's been tough.
[13:10]I mean, there have been review bombings going on,
[13:14]which we've discussed.
[13:16]I had to, and this was very hard for me,
[13:18]I had my launch at my favorite bookstore
[13:21]that I've done over 30 events with.
[13:24]And they canceled another Jewish author.
[13:26]I'm not going to out names or anything like that,
[13:29]but I helped make a decision,
[13:31]how could I, with this book, launch at this bookstore
[13:35]and I did give them the opportunity
[13:37]to apologize to the community and it did not happen.
[13:41]So, it was, it was, it's things that you cannot believe
[13:46]like I'm picturing my grandparents and my great-grandparents
[13:50]like how is this even possible, but it's happening.
[13:53]So, you know, it's tough times,
[13:56]but I think I always say this silver lining
[14:00]for the Jewish world right now is the Jewish world
[14:03]is coming together in ways that we haven't before.
[14:07]So, what I'm excited about with this book
[14:10]is that I'm touring in and not just specifically Jewish book,
[14:14]you know, council or areas,
[14:16]a lot of places that my readers are going to feel,
[14:19]you know, are not going to know my history.
[14:22]So, I'm very excited to share this with readers out there.
[14:27]Do you ever feel scared?
[14:29]Like are you worried?
[14:30]I don't feel scared.
[14:32]I get nervous, like I get butterflies,
[14:35]but then once, you know, it's like,
[14:38]I think you pinpointed it exactly.
[14:41]I, you had something you posted
[14:44]and it's that sickening feeling when you know
[14:46]you're about to post something that's gonna be very important
[14:49]and resonate with people.
[14:51]And, you know, you sort of have that
[14:53]where you can't breathe for a minute
[14:55]and then you hit send
[14:56]and then you see that it resonates
[14:58]and it's like this feeling.
[15:01]So, I feel like there, you know, yes,
[15:04]there could be protesters and various things,
[15:06]but I'm not gonna stand down.
[15:08]I mean, you know me.
[15:09]I'm, you know, kind of a tough chick that way,
[15:12]but I mostly worry for my kids not for myself
[15:16]if that makes any sense.
[15:18]But, you know, we'll see what happens.
[15:21]But the thing about this book,
[15:23]it really is, there's a universal theme of, you know,
[15:29]how, like, what is the, you know, the fine line
[15:34]between the pursuit of justice and the hunt for revenge?
[15:39]And it could be anyone or anything.
[15:42]And, you know, and just as a person,
[15:44]when you do, when someone is paid back
[15:47]or we have our like, oh, karma is a bitch, you know,
[15:50]it's like, and then you know,
[15:52]something bad happened to a bad person.
[15:54]And you're like, okay, there's justice.
[15:57]So, the question is, is there an expiration date
[16:01]when justice is done?
[16:03]Is that person who's seeking justice?
[16:05]Is there an inner peace that happens?
[16:07]And usually there's not, you know,
[16:09]and so that is sort of explored as well
[16:14]and the price tag of survival.
[16:17]So, if someone is, you know, in a terror attack
[16:21]and someone is not, what is the guilt,
[16:24]the feelings, the price tag of survival and going on,
[16:28]that's explored as well.
[16:29]So there are universal themes
[16:31]that are pretty powerful in the book.
[16:34]I mean, we're, we're, the sole heir closer to your lunch date,
[16:37]but as we're talking, you know,
[16:38]in our group chat, people are posting
[16:40]about the 50 people who have committed suicide
[16:44]who are part of the survivors of the attacks of October 7th.
[16:48]Which is, I mean, it's like, how do you glance at your phone,
[16:51]read a thing like that, put the phone down,
[16:54]and then just like, okay, back to emails.
[16:56]Generally, it's like the effects of everything today
[17:01]are so far ranging and a book like years coming out now
[17:05]is so incredibly important
[17:07]because the survivor effects have,
[17:11]I mean, this is gonna reverberate for generations
[17:14]as well, right?
[17:15]I mean, it's, it is, it's, the world is changed.
[17:19]And, you know, the world is, we know it is, is very changed.
[17:23]And, you know, obviously there are people
[17:25]who you could say, they say, you know,
[17:27]I can't look at the news.
[17:29]If I wanna function during this day,
[17:31]you need to shut it off, or you have someone like me
[17:34]where I, you know, checking four newspapers an hour just to see.
[17:39]And I also know that that's not totally healthy at all.
[17:43]You know, because you feel like you have one foot
[17:47]in this world and, you know, your, your kids are saying,
[17:50]oh my God, I need this new bathing suit and you're like,
[17:53]oh my God, you know, you know, there's hostages there.
[17:56]You know, whatever it is, you know, where,
[17:59]and yet you want your family and your kids
[18:02]to go on as normal.
[18:03]But I do remember when I was in Jerusalem
[18:07]and this is when I was a young reporter
[18:10]and there was a war going on.
[18:12]And my friend who was serving was out, you know,
[18:16]having drinks and having a good time.
[18:18]And I said to him, I said, how can you possibly like
[18:21]enjoy your life and do all these things
[18:25]when your, your friends have died.
[18:27]And he said, they died so I could do this.
[18:30]So I have to do this.
[18:32]I have to go out.
[18:33]I have to dance.
[18:34]I have to sing.
[18:36]I have to have fun because that's what they lost their lives for.
[18:40]So we could have a normal life.
[18:41]And I, you know, I was,
[18:43]that's just always goes through my head all the time.
[18:46]You know, you have certain voices or things along the way.
[18:49]That's one of them for sure.
[18:51]So as, as we were saying, like,
[18:54]I'm happy my kids or my family are thinking
[18:57]about normal types of things,
[18:59]even though I'm like all over the place.
[19:01]You know, it's like they're still learning French.
[19:04]Right?
[19:04]Yes. Exactly.
[19:06]Exactly.
[19:07]It's not going to be a share.
[19:08]Yeah. Tell me more about the writing of this book
[19:11]and the research involved.
[19:12]And I know you mentioned some first person interviews,
[19:14]but what else did you have to do?
[19:16]And did you, did you go to the ghetto?
[19:19]Have you been to the Warsaw ghetto?
[19:20]Well, I have not been to the Warsaw ghetto.
[19:23]I, you know, just I did a deep dive.
[19:27]I read through fabulous books.
[19:30]I did a lot of interviews.
[19:32]And I really, you know, as we're,
[19:36]when we know our story,
[19:38]we sort of know what we need for a story.
[19:41]But I did have, you know,
[19:43]I worked closely with Illinois Holocaust Museum.
[19:46]And so they gave me great, you know,
[19:49]background and testimonials and piles and piles of stuff.
[19:53]And I'm sort of a geek that way old school.
[19:55]Like, I love all my research books and my, you know,
[19:59]highlighters.
[20:00]by papers and old, like, you know, microfilms, you know,
[20:04]all those things that are very old school.
[20:08]So I was sitting at the Holocaust Museum in the library
[20:12]by myself, surrounded literally by the Warsaw Ghetto
[20:17]uprising.
[20:17]And really, you know, there were, you know, 400,000 Jews
[20:22]were in a space like a, and not even 11 miles space.
[20:26]I mean, we're talking seven people at minimum crammed
[20:30]in one room.
[20:31]And the wealthier people had maybe three in a room,
[20:34]like even though they lost everything,
[20:36]there were still hierarchies of things that went on.
[20:40]But I surrounded myself in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.
[20:45]And, you know, having had, as I said, you know,
[20:48]a family that came from Poland, I had a lot of background.
[20:51]And there are a couple major stories in Jewish history
[20:55]that I've always connected with.
[20:56]And one was Masada, the whole story behind Masada,
[21:00]and Jews who stand strong in the face of hate and evil
[21:06]and persecution.
[21:08]And the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, I always knew,
[21:11]even as I was doing in all my other books, Nazi-luded art,
[21:15]that I was going to get to this.
[21:16]This was the one.
[21:18]And, you know, I feel like this is my strongest book.
[21:21]You know, I don't know what's going to be with it,
[21:23]but it is, for me, I feel like it says everything.
[21:29]It's who I am as a writer and as a woman
[21:32]and as, you know, having my background.
[21:35]So, you know, it's gonna be interesting for sure.
[21:38]And you even get in a little bit about aging
[21:41]and what it is to be a woman here, you know,
[21:44]when you have an aging, you have a little beauty.
[21:47]And like, what is that?
[21:48]I mean, you're really getting it all,
[21:50]we're getting it on all sides here.
[21:52]Right. And possibly be worrying about it.
[21:55]Yeah, no, it's, and really like, it is.
[21:58]It's like that whole, whole Hollywood actress
[22:00]still hanging on.
[22:02]But she, she's got sort of the Margot Robbie actress
[22:06]who's coming to interviewer and everything.
[22:09]And they forge it later on in the book,
[22:12]a beautiful friendship.
[22:13]And sort of the mother-daughter situation
[22:16]that each one of them needed.
[22:18]But this old broad Lena Browning
[22:21]is going to have the last act.
[22:23]And that's what I, even when I set out
[22:25]to write this book, I knew that she was going to have
[22:28]the last act, the last word.
[22:30]So, you know, it's always fun when you have a target.
[22:33]I mean, I'm sort of a writer where I am a hybrid
[22:36]of our plot or pants or situation.
[22:39]You know, we always talk about,
[22:40]but that was one plot point that was going to happen for sure.
[22:43]So I know you are already working
[22:46]with the one and only Sharon Stone on adapting your,
[22:50]your previous work.
[22:52]But what about this one has, has she taken this up?
[22:55]I mean, she could be this older.
[22:56]She, she really, really could.
[22:58]I mean, you can picture her doing this.
[23:01]I, you know, I think Sharon, interestingly through COVID,
[23:06]she's taken a huge right turn or left turn,
[23:09]whatever you want to call it, into painting.
[23:11]So she's finding her new, like, mode of expression.
[23:16]And I think she's in love.
[23:18]So with that, and I'm happy for her, you know, it's,
[23:22]you know, she's the typical Hollywood it girl.
[23:26]And when you age in Hollywood,
[23:28]either they grab you later or they discard you.
[23:31]And so, you know, this is a type of woman
[23:34]who will never go down.
[23:36]You know, she will go her way all the way.
[23:39]And so she's, she's, she's funny.
[23:42]She's nice.
[23:43]I like really nice and very much of a cheerleader,
[23:46]which is, you know, you don't always see that.
[23:48]And she really is.
[23:49]So we'll see what happens with that.
[23:51]Yeah.
[23:52]Oh my gosh.
[23:53]What is your next book?
[23:54]You must have said yes.
[23:56]So interestingly, I had a book that I was working on.
[24:01]And this is again before October 7th,
[24:04]and had to do with hostages.
[24:06]So I kind of had, so I had to put that aside
[24:10]because it's just, it's too much.
[24:14]But this one is also, it's just beginning.
[24:18]And it's, it's also World War II, a part of history
[24:21]that even my editor who's kind of specializes
[24:25]in World War II history had never really heard of it.
[24:28]And there's art, there's intrigue, there's deception.
[24:31]You know, there's going to be some great passionate scenes,
[24:34]you know, because you've got to go war
[24:36]and you've got to go pass and put it together.
[24:38]That's kind of, you know, what I enjoy.
[24:41]And so I'll tell you more details once it finalizes,
[24:45]but art is really a big part of it,
[24:47]but a very different angle.
[24:50]Wow.
[24:51]How do you, I know you're so focused and so helpful.
[24:56]And so, so much of just a warrior
[24:59]when it comes to fighting all of the current day,
[25:01]antisemitism and everything.
[25:03]Often people say, well, like, what can we do to help?
[25:06]Or is there anything we can do?
[25:08]If there are people listening who,
[25:10]just their heart is going out to Jewish people
[25:13]or they don't agree with antisemitism
[25:17]or that, you know, whatever.
[25:18]Is there anything that you want to save them,
[25:21]you know, for how they can help
[25:22]aside from by the goddess of Warsaw,
[25:24]which is of course very helpful.
[25:26]I'm learning history and all that.
[25:29]I think, you know, you know,
[25:32]I've used my social media platform to write,
[25:36]to as some opinion types of pieces
[25:40]and obviously to stand strong and to fight.
[25:42]But I think most people are against hate.
[25:46]Most people like despise what's going on.
[25:50]I mean, we're talking people who are not Jewish,
[25:52]but maybe have Jewish friends, Jewish,
[25:54]what it doesn't matter, but overall.
[25:57]So when you see, they are taking a message you write
[26:01]and they are putting it in their own stories
[26:03]and they are supporting it and they're standing up
[26:06]and even in the smallest way,
[26:09]even if it's just a personal call
[26:11]where I've had people reach out and say,
[26:13]hey, I see what's going on.
[26:16]I'm with you and I'm here for you if you need me.
[26:18]It's any sort of small voice, big voice, you know, helps
[26:23]and, you know, there's no magical solution
[26:26]to stopping antisemitism and obviously so many parents
[26:31]are seeing what's going on in campuses
[26:34]and it's disruptive and, you know,
[26:37]I'm all for freedom of expression,
[26:39]but this is a new level of hate.
[26:42]You know, it's next level hate.
[26:45]And so I think when people are standing up,
[26:47]whether it's to their university president to say,
[26:51]hey, I'm not Jewish, my kid is at your school
[26:54]and I'm seeing what's going on you need to do more
[26:57]or something like that.
[26:58]Every small message helps and reaching out
[27:02]to your Jewish friends letting them know,
[27:04]hey, we see you is probably the most important advice
[27:08]right now.
[27:09]Obviously, if we were in a true Holocaust situation,
[27:13]we would need them in a different level
[27:15]but this right now is, you know,
[27:19]though we see you, we are here for you.
[27:21]We stand against hate.
[27:23]All kinds of hate and that's really important, I think.
[27:27]I think so too.
[27:29]Well, you know, it's crazy to do this in mid-April
[27:33]and know this is, you know, by the time this comes out,
[27:35]what will have happened when we're in the mid-attacks
[27:38]and who knows?
[27:39]So saying a little prayer that by the time,
[27:43]the message of your book comes out, things are better
[27:46]and that works like yours are just so important
[27:49]and, you know, the fun with which you tell your story
[27:52]is in that little dash of sexiness
[27:55]and whatever, you know, you always keep everyone's attention
[27:59]and that lust and, you know, like you said,
[28:01]passion and pain, you know, interwoven
[28:03]and this like delicate, beautiful braid.
[28:05]So kind of like a holla, I'll just throw that out.
[28:09]Exactly.
[28:10]Now, I just think that no matter what's going on,
[28:13]like we have those human needs
[28:15]and just really briefly, I remember doing research
[28:19]for a book, someone else's book
[28:20]and they asked me to write a chapter on Rwanda
[28:23]and I had done some work when I was a reporter
[28:27]and interviewing a psychiatrist who was dealing with
[28:31]refugees and kids who saw horrible things
[28:35]and she said, the psychiatrist said to me,
[28:37]she was the most surprised that people weren't talking
[28:40]about the rape of their sister or their,
[28:43]I don't think they were talking about that boy
[28:46]doesn't like me, he likes another girl here
[28:49]and it's just, it's the basic human need
[28:53]and so you, and I just, and that's in the book
[28:57]and I just remember how important that is
[29:01]in times of war and times of peace.
[29:03]You know, we just, we have love, we have needs for passion,
[29:07]we have needs to feel liked, respected,
[29:10]all those things and it doesn't change in any society.
[29:14]It's the same thing and so that universality
[29:18]is so, that message is so important, I think.
[29:22]Amazing.
[29:23]Lisa, congratulations, thank God it's a four-star.
[29:26]Thank you, Zibi, for all they do today.
[29:29]All they do for authors, for books,
[29:34]for your friends, your family, it's amazing
[29:37]and we love you and appreciate you
[29:39]and I'm so glad that I get to call you friend
[29:42]on top of being a colleague and really proud of you.
[29:45]Thank you.
[29:46]I'll see you later, bye.
[30:00]to be readers.