Award-Winning YouTubers! ADHD IS AWESOME: A Guide to (Mostly) Thriving with ADHD

[0:02]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and I am the host of this

[1:37]Zibby Owens: Podcast. Moms don't have time to read books. I am also a newly minted USA Today bestselling author of the novel blank. I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at zibbymedia.com, or follow me on social at Zibby Owens, or join the community at Zivvy Readers.

[2:04]Pen Holderness: Kim and Pen Holderness, our coauthors of ADHD is awesome, a guide to mostly thriving with ADHD. We did this conversation in person in my apartment, and you can watch the whole thing on YouTube as well on the at Ziviiverse YouTube channel. Penn and Kim Holderness have been married for eighteen years, and for the past decade, they have been online content creators. Known for their award winning videos of sketch comedy and music, they have garnered over 2,000,000,000 views and over 8,000,000 followers across their social media platforms. Penn and Kim are best selling authors, award winning podcast hosts, and were winners of season 33 of the Amazing Race, which we didn't talk about, but we probably should have. Before making their own content in the digital space, they honed their storytelling skills with twenty five combined years in the TV news business. When they aren't making their audience laugh, they help international companies make videos of their own along with their team at Holderness Family Productions. Penn and Kim live in Raleigh, North Carolina with their children, Lola and Penn Charles and their dog, Sunny. And by the way, we have a very special cohost along with me for this episode, which is my husband, Kyle. So I hope you enjoy. Holderness family in the house. Welcome so much. I'm so excited you're here. Penn and Kim Holderness, ADHD is awesome. Thank you so much for coming. Moms don't have time to read books. We are so excited to be here. Thank you for having us. No. This is great. I know. So I have a special guest. Kyle is here. Special guest today. Today because he just has to be here. I mean, husband and wife come in. Yeah. We're gonna do a little husband and wife Yeah. Thing. It's great. I love it. He was in the house. So Yeah. And I'm constantly recommending books that I've never read before. So It's tracks. That's true. He's he's good at that. If you're listening in DC, you didn't hear that. Even on your social, the one video you did where you're making fun of how surprised she gets when she hears. And she's like and you're like because I always I had stopped reacting to it after a while. After about a year of living with Zibby and thinking just the world Right. Is ending just ending. I'm like, my heart starts pounding. Oh, god. What is it? And then Yeah. It's just a nothing. I think we all I'd do I'm also guilty of doing that. We just get so fixated on our phones that, like, we assume that there's nobody else here. And so the reaction is always way more than it should be. Right? Like And then he just says There's a sale at pennies. They're like, what are you know? Pennies. Is Pennies gross? You know what? No. That actually was a quote from Okay. Okay. Alright. There you go. Yeah. Okay. Pennies. Yep. Mhmm. Why is For our older listeners. Why why is ADHD awesome? First of all, the definition of the word awesome is twofold. It is, you know, awe inspiring, which is in the word. It is wonderful. It is worthy of admiration and it's also scary, terrifying. When people describe things as awesome in the days of yore, they were talking about volcanoes and comets and things coming hurdling toward the earth. So I believe that ADHD is both. I think it's it is terrifying when you leave the stove on and you leave the house or you leave your keys in the car and someone can break in and your family could be in trouble or or you lose train of thought and you don't know where you just drove and you look around and wonder why you came into a room. But it's also it's also a brain that is wildly creative, innovative, outside the box thinking, and capable of things that neurotypical brains capable of things that people with neurotypical brains can't do. So it's both. It's amazing. Would you say it's it's a superpower, almost? For me, it has been. For me You don't get to ask the question. Just hang out. Kyle's doing great. You're doing great. That's a great question. I was like, you know what? I'm looking for Yeah. For an opportunity to jump in here. I'm gonna jump in. Yeah. So for me, my job depends on innovation, creativity, and being receptive to inspiration. And the ADHD brain is set up pretty nicely for that. You have to get the systems in place on the other end so that you can get to that point. But for me, it's I I believe that I am a songwriter and a skit writer and a comic and a book writer and all of these things because of my ADHD, not in spite of it. I love that. That's beautiful. And for listeners, you have ADHD. Kim, you do not have ADHD. You've lived to tell. I live I've lived to tell the tale. I mean, my my brain is wired in a funky way too. I mean, I deal with, I've been very open about this anxiety and some fun OCD occasionally. So, I mean, it's not like we are, neither one of us has a neurotypical brain, I guess you could say. But no, I do not have ADHD. So for the people living with spouses who have ADHD, and I know you write about this in the book, what should they know? How do you enjoy quirks? I enjoy it all. How do you enjoy it? Oh my gosh. I don't know. Would say Embrace it. Embrace well, here's the first thing. For a long time, I did not enjoy it all. I will say when we first started dating, I think all of the things that he'd mentioned, I mean, spontaneity and the comedy and all, that is why I fell in love with him. So all his ADHD brain is what I was attracted to. It's once we got married, and I think if I can be honest, once we had kids, and all the plates start spinning and then falling. And then, that is when, I think, his ADHD really I'm not I don't wanna put it on you that it became an issue. It just became No. I'll say it. It was an issue. I was letting people down, like things were falling through the cracks. Yeah. So, let's talk like Penn's not here. Talk like Penn. Okay. Let's so I Let's lay it all out. People would say, oh, it's like you have three kids. And that is not I never laughed when people said that. I did not think that was funny. And I will give all the credit in the world to my husband that when we went to marriage counseling and when he saw that there was ways that, you know, things could improve, he, like five years ago, really did a deep dive in trying to understand his brain and why it works. And in turn I mean, that started the research for this book. And then in turn, I learned so much about the ADHD brain. And so now, I know, for example, when he is getting, you know, back packs ready, putting snacks in the bag, water bottle, making eggs in the morning, doing all this stuff, him turning on the stove doesn't even enter his working memory. So leaving it on, it didn't even enter his working memory that he left he turned it on. So it wouldn't even occur to him to turn it off. Whereas my brain, I can do all the things. So now I know when you ask him, What's it like? And I know he's not doing it on purpose. And so that changes the tone of our marriage. That I know he is showing up, he's doing the best he can. He's also feeling great shame if he screws up. So if I know he's not doing it on purpose, it can, like, bring the boil to a simmer. You know? It can just, like, the temperature, it's just, like, it's much it's much there's much less tension in our house. This is good marriage advice Yeah. For anything. Yeah. Just understanding why this So, it spring was recognizing how you were reacting as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I was I me How are you gonna choose to react to this? Me nagging and me constantly reminding, like, me being the person that reminded and nagging made him feel shame. And neither of us knew I think the biggest issue was neither of us knew what was going on in my brain. Right? Once she learns that that, you know, through this research of this book, once she learns things about working memory Mhmm. And the emotional flooding and all the other things that come with ADHD, it makes it easier for you to forgive that person, give them grace. Mhmm. For me, once I know what's going on in my brain, a weird phenomenon, and it's I've heard about this with other people with ADHD. Once you learn more about it, it makes you more likely to wanna get to work on the things that you can improve because there's less shame in it. Right. So you have the song where you have to remember your keys and all that. Yeah. Can you just sing that? Sure. You wanna spontaneously Yeah. It's glasses, wallet, keys, and phone. Keys and phone. Glasses, wallet, keys, and phone. Keys and phone. Make sure to take them all before you go. Glasses, wallet, keys and phone, keys and phone. It's head, shoulders. Thank you. Thank you. It's head, shoulders, knees and toes. Yeah. But that's an example of one of the many systems that you've put into place so that you protect against the shameful things that happen as a result of just the way you think. Mhmm. Yeah. There's quite a few of those and there's but there was a barrier to starting with those when I didn't really know how my brain worked. It was like, I'm being treated like a 10 year old. And your mom did not know you did not know early on, just your mom would like stand over you and help you through and give you all the things. So when did you realize this was what it was and how? Yeah. So shout out to my mom because ADHD I'm 49, and so ADHD wasn't a thing Mhmm. When I was growing up. Children were not being diagnosed with it, at least not that I know of because doctors weren't aware of what it was. And so shout out to her. She kind of in inherently innately figured all of these things out, because she loved me and she wanted to positively reinforce me for the most part. So, like, she put lists all over the house, which are it is one great tool that you get as a ADHD adult or a child. She found creative ways to teach me, musical ways to teach me. She taught me music visually instead of through sheet music and she knew that I had a near for it. So all this crazy stuff that decades of research is now realizing it works for this brain, that was her. That got me through high school. Mhmm. And I went to college and I didn't have my ADHD whisperer with me and the classrooms got a lot bigger so there were lecture halls instead of I went to a state college so the lecture halls were there instead of small groups of students And my grades dipped big time. I also gave in very much to to distractions that I didn't wasn't really privy to when Distractions? Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Beer. Beer. All the other stuff. You had a great time ago. I had an awesome time in college. I'm not I'm not complaining, but That's the next book. College is awesome. College is awesome. That's all it's gonna be called. There was one specific moment where I was a senior in college and my grandmother died. We were at her funeral and we were talking about there was this, like, beach trip that she always organized for all the cousins. And we're having this tough conversation, like, what are we gonna do about this now? And I got I started, like, thinking about all these great times we had and how they might go away. And meanwhile, they're having this very important, like, physical conversation and my aunt Zell says she said, I'm sorry, Pen, I cannot focus on this conversation because you have a flyswatter in your mouth. He was just he was I had taken a used flyswatter. This is Eastern Carolina, so I'm sure it caught a lot of flies and I was chewing on it. No knowledge of how it got in my mouth. Wow. No knowledge of why it was there in the first place, and that felt weird and wrong. And that that was course sort of the tipping point like what is going on? And so I went to a doctor. At that point in the nineties, it was a medical model of diagnosis, right? Where they look at a symptom, they look at a problem and they try to treat it. And that was about as far as it went. Gave me medicine, took the medicine, got better grades, graduated from college. That was the that was the solution. And then I took myself off of the medication because I didn't recognize the person that I was. I wasn't a bad person. I think maybe people around me might have liked me more. I don't know. But it I just didn't I've for me, medicine made me feel like a different person. Medicine is great for most people. So I took myself off it and learned how to try to cope with it without really understanding all of the things that I understood in this book. I just I found Band Aids, I think, for a long time. Like a job that had deadlines and was super stimulus heavy, like I was a local news reporter and sportscaster. Married a girl who somehow thought some of this was charming. And then, like, said I'm I'm answering your question by giving you the entire story of Brand Life. I'm sorry. I love it. You're making my job easier. And then realized, to her point, once kids came into play and once starting a business came into play, that my executive functioning was redlining, things were falling through the cracks, and I needed real help. And that's when I discovered that people are not using that medical model anymore Mhmm. As much. They're using a strengths based approach. And how were you as a sportscaster? Because I feel like you would be great. Oh, he was great. That was pretty good. He he was very he had some really cool franchises. Like, had some of the most creative ways to tell a sports story. Love it. You would have loved it. Like, he did he highlighted, like, the Pee Wee football kids, but he called it, like, NFL films. It was amazing. It was everybody's favorite, and he was everybody's favorite. It was fun. Yeah. I I definitely would still do it if it was a thing anymore. There's like three sportscasters left and so they Yeah. Yeah. It was fun. So I think people listening or watching or whatever are thinking, okay, now I have some tips. Well, is what I would imagine I would be doing. I have some tips if I'm the spouse. Mhmm. But what if I have ADHD? Like, do I have ADHD? I don't know. I'm distracted. I lose my stuff all the time. I think people wonder that about themselves because all of our attention is all over the place. Mhmm. Mhmm. And we have sort of, as a society, adopted a lot of those traits. And and then also, what do you do when if your kids have ADHD? Kid, kids, then what? Well, it's a really good question. And there is a thing called acquired attention disorder. They don't so the psychologists that we know, they don't say, you don't have ADHD, you have acquired attention disorder. It's not an official diagnosis. Right. But we we talk about it in the book. It's essentially what you said. It's like there's a a new influx of distractions Mhmm. Over the last few years, like, it's been tough to concentrate. COVID Zoom meetings are the worst. Like, oh, maybe I have this because the things you're describing sound like me. So it's it's important to know that doctors are the ones who diagnose you. Not this book, not me, but the cliff notes of it is, if you think you might have it, think back and and ask yourself, like, did these problems present themselves as well in childhood? Because it always starts in childhood. You might get through it to adulthood and it happens in more than one place. Like it happens not just at home but it happens at home and at school or Mhmm. At home and at work. And that's one of the big delineators that psychologists use when they're trying to assess what's going on. As far as kids, same thing. It's the doctors definitely know what they're doing and they've done this enough that they look for for the actual signs. For example, we've had we had both of our kids tested. And we live in a community where there are lot of universities. So we went to, like, the university route that's just, like, three days long. It's, like, a really exhaustive test because we wanted to be sure. And I would have bet that both of my kids had different presentations of ADHD, but one does not and one does. And so, they were able to piece out what was just some basic inattentiveness and one that was like, oh, yeah, super ADHD. Yeah. And is this something you generally inherit from a parent? When you look back on your childhood, do you go, oh, hey, actually my dad was kinda like this too or Yes. Scientists have identified I think seven genes that are connected to ADHD and so, yes. I mean, again, it's hard to tell because like my dad probably had it but no one was testing people in the forties and fifties for ADHD. The bigger sample size you have, the larger that percentage of hereditary, you know, passing down Your is dad's super head ADHD. Oh, yeah. And he was great. Yeah. He's super head ADHD. Interesting. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. 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[20:16]Pen Holderness: So you two are doing a a podcast. I listened to one of your episodes, is great. And I was like, I need to get you guys to sing a song for my podcast. Oh. Can you do that? Can I like hire you to sing a song? Was like, it makes it sound so great. I only have music in the background. You mean, like, as an open Yeah. Like a yeah. Whole Oh, yeah. I mean, I feel like Zibby could rhyme with so many things. I I need a jingle. Yeah. Yeah. Think we're on it. On it. Okay. Alright. Great. It says the person who does it. Yeah. Person who doesn't write music. I'm like, yeah. He'll do it. He's already thinking about it. It's called Moms Don't Have Time to Read. Read books. Books. And it's Zibby do do you call yourself Zibby or Zibby Owens? Like, what are the components? Okay. Depends how formal it is. Do you want, like, an original song or do you want a parody of a song that you really like? Whatever you wanna do. Okay. So now his brain hears how to Yeah. I'm not gonna be to pay attention. He's not gonna pay attention by the end of He's leaving the room now. He's leaving the room and he's This is going off to write. I did this as a challenge to to show you all what an ADHD brain looks like. If you have a piano or a guitar, I can probably, like, knock it out right now. I'll go grab my daughter's guitar. Okay. So speaking of speaking of all that music, I wanna know how did you guys start the initial sort of your your viral Instagrams and TikToks and what sparked that to to come to fruition? Such an accident. We both worked in local news. I we had kids. It was like a little too much. So I stepped out to start a, you know, video production business because I think, you know, put those skills to use. We created a Christmas video. About how long ago was it? Ten years. Okay. And we created this Christmas video called and we were just gonna send it to our family and friends. Our kids wouldn't sit still for Christmas card. And so, it was a parody, and we were in our Christmas jammies. And so, we danced around in our front yard to a parody of Will Smith's Welcome to Miami, but in my Christmas jammies. And over, you know, over the thirty days, it got, like, 17,000,000 views. But more than that, it was on every morning show. Think it was, like, a slow news week. It was on every morning show. It was on every, you know, twenty four hour news cycle. So it just went everywhere. And what platform was that on? YouTube. Okay. YouTube. But then we just and Pen was quitting his job at that time. We it took us a while. We were not fast learners. So we started doing work for other people. So we would write jingles for other And we would do work I'm trying I'm pulling you backwards. Pull us back. Pull us back. No. But They're trying to it is No. No. No. No. It is interesting. We do want to it's so funny. I say we. It's him. I'll I he's the songwriter. But it took us a few years before we started just doing our own stuff. So it took us three or four years after that. I think if somebody who had a business degree instead of a journalism and a philosophy degree had looked at our business, they could have said, No, this is what you need to do. So, yeah. We just make these silly, goofy videos, write books, have a podcast, blah. I mean, it's a lot, but it's so fun. It's so fun to get to do this. So I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah. It's all by accident. There was no business plan. Still no business plan. Just going for it. Yeah. Yeah. People We've got a little bit of a business plan. We have a little we have we have some goals. We have so we I wanna interrupt here. We have a team of people who help keep us on track, they helped with the book, and they helped with all of this, they helped with the podcast. So I think they get a little Offended when I say there's no business plan. Yeah. Because Yeah. Because they're like, it's our We are the Because Breaking the job. They haven't shared it with you. Yeah. No. They have No. They're way smarter Here's than we the like, here's the crazy thing. We can't do it without them, but also, sometimes we just have to go rogue and just do something incredibly spontaneous. And they have actually learned to, like, roll with that, which is incredible because we're asking them to keep us on track. Yeah. And then we're like, oh, we're going rogue. Yeah. So what's something So it's a perfect Give me an example of something completely spontaneous. So we the eclipse happened recently. Right? Yeah. And so, we we do we have this you know, we have Sam and Emery, this they they're like, okay. We need to do something about the eclipse. Maybe we share a video we had done in the last eclipse, something like that. And Pen is taking my son to school, and he's like, I got it. And you see him, like, take a, like, a pan from, like, underneath the stove, and he's taking my son to school. I was like, okay, whatever. And then I check Instagram, and he he had recorded a total eclipse of the heart with the recorder, so it sounded real It was terrible. It sounded really trashy. And it was basically an eclipse reenactment. And he just did this, and he, in front of the sun, just put, like, the pan in it's I'm really not describing it well. Like, the pot in front of the sun. And it was, like, for those not in the path, this is the reenactment of the eclipse. It got something like 20,000,000 views over a couple days. And Amazing. And they Well, the reason remember the reason why we started doing this, because we weren't even sure if we were gonna worry about it, but all of these we social media was, like, like, flooding with people saying, oh, it's gonna be cloudy today. And so our thought was, well, no one's gonna see it. So let's give it to them with this. This reenactment. And and so for that reason, it had to be spontaneous. Like, it's not something that we could have thought of before. We realized that there was the need for that in the world and, know, the best, I think, best spontaneous things are reactive to something that's going on right that moment. Yep. Yeah. And so, again, our team was like, wait, so we're planning this and now Penn's taking a And then we even we had we had Yeah. I won't say their name, but one of them uploaded it and and put, there's like a spelling error on it. And she's like, oh, crap. Because it was already within the first thirty minutes had something like 500,000 views. She's like, well, we can't take it down now, but there's a spelling error on it. We're like, let's just let it ride. So it's really fun. And there's, like, a big glaring misspell on it. But that's fine. It's but it's the Internet and it'll go away. It's, you know, if there was a spelling error in this, it would be a little That would drive me insane. That would drive us insane. Yeah. But That's like Zibby's biggest pet peeve. Yeah. It is. I honestly Same. Yeah. Yeah. Same. So I sometimes I do it and then I only catch it later and then I feel so bad because I'm like, I get so upset when other people do it. I know. Do you have trouble misspelling misspell? Yeah. Two s's? Two s's. I have a tough time with that too. Isn't that weird? Yeah. Cancel two l's. Don't know. Yeah. But honestly, think that's a cultural is I think because in The UK, it's just one l. Thank you for So I think that Thank you. You could do. Appreciate it. Do it any way you want. Yeah. It's barely a typo. Yeah. It's when I'm, like, falling asleep and I'm, just one more post. Yeah. And I wake up and I'm, like, oh my god. You know, like, my eyes were closing, like What were you thinking? Yeah. No good post happens after midnight. I know. Exactly. This is just a mistake. So do you just from a technical side, do you plot out all your content, like, with this team and going rogue? Like, do you have it in a grid, like, you know what's Yeah. Coming Thank god they do. They do. But but we also will then say, no, we're doing this. That's the way we're doing that part. And then we'll So but going rogue means not doing what So there's a framework for and and, by the way, for the next week, not the next Got it. Month. Right. Yeah. So I think, ideally, it would be for the next month. But to Penn's point, we don't really know what's happening in our lives in the world next So we leave we don't know what we're posting next week. So Got it. Keep it relevant. Yeah. Yeah. So but do you sell ads? So you're an ACAS like we are, which is great. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We. You're now a part of my team. Let's go, Kyle. You know. Let's go. Thank you. I didn't see this coming. Like, asking about Like, of your whole platform. Okay. Right. So like The yeah. What do you Yeah. And you don't have to share. I'm just as of No. Let's do this. Let tell you. So the podcast is one thing. Yep. ACAS to your point. Yep. They, you know, you have an agency or some sort of in between. They put it on their platform and then they sell either dynamic ads or ads that get laid into wherever they are. You have a certain monthly amount for that. Right? On Facebook and YouTube and much smaller senses, Instagram and TikTok, there are micro profits that you make off of monetization. So if your video gets a certain number of views, it matters to a lot of those platforms how long they spend viewing. Facebook, you have to have a three minute ad to really Three minute video. Three minute video, sorry, to get the most out of that monetization. YouTube, they do pre roll ads, so it's different there. And so that's the second source of revenue. The third, and it's this one ebbs and flows, but our brand deals. So that's when you make a video and a brand wants to I saw one, I think you guys did with, like, Pickleball and maybe Target. Yeah. And Target. Target's been great. So those are those are great if you can find people who are willing to make truly entertaining videos that align with their product. Mhmm. And Target does a great job of that. So Target, and in that case was Prince, they do a great job with that. And so that when you get a just a here's here's the amount of money we are willing to give you, Would you please put our product in your video? And and so I will say and so there's there's more. So we also have a blog that we love because we both love to write and books as you it's like Mhmm. You know, to be profitable in the book business is, you know The dollars per hour is less than everyone knows because of how many hours is spent it. How many hours, but we Yeah. We love that. Not including the publicity. Correct. It's like a big part of it. And then we also sell we have two games that we created. We have like silly little yeah. We have two games that we've created. That's so cool. Yeah. One's more for kids, one's a little more for adults. Yeah. And then we have like, you know, t shirts and sweatshirts and stuff like that. So we have a lot of plates spinning and our we have this whole I think it's seven revenue streams. But like, we have this little song we sing about it. Yeah. Because I I wanna know the seven revenue songs. Well, it's just like seven revenue streams. Seven profitable revenue streams. Like, he sings it better. But Yeah. It's because I like that version. Aw. I think because we live in fear because we are really building our house on somebody else's land. Right? So, we're on Instagram Mhmm. On Facebook, Facebook, TikTok. All these algorithms change. I mean, is TikTok going away? I haven't I haven't So when things randomly happen like they do, I feel like in the last couple months when suddenly it's like Instagram's down. Down. We have another We move. We move. Pivot. Yes. I mean, we were Facebook was our main I thought you meant you, like, you actually moved. We're we're gone. We leave the country. No. I mean, Facebook used to be our absolute bread and butter and it is Facebook's still great. We still put our stuff on there. But I just think it's, the atmosphere has become a little more like, are people actually enjoying themselves in this platform anymore? So And also, it it has to do with what are they rewarding? Is Facebook rewarding creators? They rewarding people to go to Meta, which is their kind of new, like, VR marketplace area? So we're at the mercy of these billionaires who are rewarding certain things. Yeah. So that's why we're trying to build an email list. Yeah. Like, all of those things, you know, that everybody's trying to do. Yeah. So just because we we are building, yeah, something on land we don't own. And are you pivoting into, like, sort of that metaverse landscape? And how do you feel about that in any way? No. Not yet. Mean, well, mean, Instagram is owned by So, like, we we've definitely started like, our audience before we even went, we were noticing our audience was, like, migrating to Instagram for whatever reason. That interface was working Mhmm. More for them. So we started focusing more on vertical videos instead of Mhmm. And of course, then Facebook comes back and says, we've got vertical videos now too. So so, yeah. I mean, answer is we like, when those things happen, we try to get to where our we try to meet our audience where they are. Yeah. So unless I missed it, there is no TV show or movie or something. You don't wanna do that or that's not part of your so plan? Funny. Since the pandemic, we've been involved in this pitch process for a game show. And it's, I think the concept is hilarious, The process is. The process, it is just, I I admire the production company that's still out of it? Well, no. They're great. I just don't know for TV people. Yeah. I don't know. Oh. I I don't know. We did two pilots for cable, like, reality ish shows. Mhmm. One for Up Television, like, very, very early, and then one for the Food Network. Both were a lot of fun, a lot of work. And not a lot of money. And not a lot of money and and success to them is interesting, you know, like, the the people who we put on Facebook live to, like, promote the fact that the show was coming on had more engagement and more views than the actual show itself. So getting our audience to go and turn on a television is a harder ask than we think. Also, when you do a television show, you deal with an agent, you deal with a production company, you deal with a network that are all taking pieces of the pie when it comes to ad dollars. When we put a video on Facebook or YouTube, we own all of those ad dollars. I will say, if they come tomorrow and they've greenlit this TV show, we're gonna be so excited. Because it's fun. Cause they, like, they have an idea on how to, like, take our stuff and put it on steroids, like, we've But never done you're correct. There's not, at this point, a TV show. Yeah. I feel like the TV thing would be a different audience. Like, it would be Yeah. Harder like, the goal would be to reach people who are just watching TV and not Right. And that's Yeah. You know this. I mean No. No. No. But it that is why I think it's so tough to get these Internet people. It's a tough sell to get Internet people because it doesn't really convert in the way people think it does. Yeah. So how does it affect your marriage to have your marriage also be a brand? It affects it. It's a good question. It's a good question. Yeah. It's You coming in. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. That was our last book, which was called Everybody Fights. Yep. So why not get better at it? Yeah. I mean, let me just start with this. I I was in local news and Kim was in local news, and we decided to quit our jobs and bet on each other and start this business. And the romantic notion of that was enough to carry us a long way, but I also am completely guilty of not doing any sort of HR training about how to work with my wife, where I'd spent fifteen years in a fairly high energy and sometimes like a little bit abrasive newsroom where people are very direct and talk to each other in a different way. And pretty quickly, I'm glad I had a wife who's patient and understood and, you know, I I think I was the way the way I was talking to her as an employee was not okay even if it wasn't my wife. And so, that was our first deep dive was was counseling, like, to to kinda work this out. I would say, we've said this, that we'd rather be married than have an Instagram page or TikTok, whatever. Like, we'd rather be married than do that. And I think we have been pretty protective as much as we do these little skits and stuff. We don't share everything, you know? We're not live streaming, you know, every single thing. These are like three minute kind of hyperboles of what's happening in our day. But it is, life has changed a little bit since, like, when we it's great to go out and meet people and have people recognize us. It's great. But then that does, like, it creates, like, if we go on date nights, it's not really private, you know. It it's so that that has changed it a little bit. And we didn't really think about that Mhmm. When we started this. Because we had no idea that this would be this, you know. Yeah. We were just doing this so that I could get off of the local news schedule and be able to see my kids. Yeah. And so it's, the way it's developed has been nice. So CliffNotes answer to that is, we learned how to talk to each other and not bring some of our, you know, personality quirks into the workplace. We've learned how to create some boundaries, which I think they're not always successful but they are most of the time. And, like, our marriage is getting stronger because of the work that we're doing to get better at that. It doesn't it doesn't work itself out. Mhmm. It takes work. But we did go on a date to celebrate our anniversary and we were like, let's not talk about work and so what it was like Where do you think knives come from? Yeah. Like, where is this about? Yeah. So it gets kinda hard. And then how did that translate into co authoring a book? Because that's a stressful thing in and of itself. I will say for this book. First of all, the Two books. Two books. But no, but for this one in particular, it is, I would say, 80% pen. And because of the really great outline he came up with and everything, I had my assignments, and I could go into my corner. So, we were This was a very separate writing experience. And I could kind of hand mine in like a book report. So it was there was no clash on this book. That's great. Yeah. Very smart. Yeah. Would you agree? Yeah. So, look, the only clashing is, I wouldn't call it clashing, but you have to take inventory and be a little vulnerable when you hear, oh my god, I like she's really taking her time to write this. I am affecting her Oh, yeah. A lot. Like I have done some stuff that I probably didn't even think about that and again, the book tells you this, can't help it sometimes. But boy, I've got some work to do. And I'm glad that you were honest and open about all those things. But I think the same way she read some of my excerpts. Excerpts. Yeah. She told me I like, I've always made the Peace silent. I made the peace silent. Okay. Excerpts. Yeah. And and I think a a light went off in her head saying, oh, he didn't mean to. He's not trying to disrespect me. You know, he's not letting me down as a partner. He's got a his brain needs help and systems. Well, think you two have gotten the communications down. This is like a model thing here. Really? You know? Like respect. Do you yeah. Do you want us to record next time we get in a fight so we can just Oh, to send that to you? Because it's still gonna happen. No. Believe you've get I mean, irregular people. I mean, everybody fights. But I'm just saying, you're coming at it from a place of understanding Yeah. And compassion and respect and you can just see it. Yeah. He was like looking at you so nicely when you tried to sing. He was like, oh, my poor tone deaf wife. She's actually got a great voice. No. I don't. No. We I have no guess. Kim, you have a great voice. I've heard you in the shower. It's just I think I don't know that you wanna do that. Yeah. Well, no. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So last thing on the ADHD front. If Mhmm. Is there a piece of it that you are super grateful to have as part of your makeup? And is there a piece of it that you're like, thanks but no thanks, I'd just as soon get rid of? Good question. Yeah. So I'll start with the one that I would like to get rid of and the thing that I'm still struggling with because I'm I'm getting better at picking stuff up, not leaving things in places. Those are those are systems that you can use checklists and Siri and all these like wonder wonderful things to help keep you on schedule. I have the toughest time listening. I I feel like I'm so eager to jump in when when there's especially if there's if there's one person and that person is okay with some kinetic interruptions, then that's okay. But if you're at, like, a dinner table and someone says something and you have an idea, you I mean, you really should wait in line and make sure everyone else has, you know, what they wanna say. I am still struggling not just Yeah. Jumping My wife has become a nice governor. Oh, I interjected. But that's That was kinetic. That was good. That was good. That was a yes and. That was a yes So the non kinetic ones are the ones that are the most trouble, and Kim is so used to this now I just like that I will take a breath, and she's like, here it comes, and she will put her hand on my leg. Yeah. And I will do so here's what it is. I'll go. Yeah. At dinner last night because somebody was starting to tell a story, and I know he had a story on top of that, but I was like Not yet. I got to it. The risk of interjecting again. Yeah. I do have say anything. You're good. Though. It would it be so I interjected, but it was relevant. Relevant. And you were So you're saying, maybe you're at a dinner party, people are talking about something, and you have an idea that pops in your head. You went, is it not relevant to the conversation at hand? Where did you get your your hair gel? I was, like, wondering where because it looks really nice, I would love to, like, find out where you can take care a left turn. So you're telling a story about your summer vacation. Exactly. And he's like, I went on summer vacation, and takes a right turn, and kinda takes ownership of that conversation and hijacks it. But I have done the hair gel thing too. Like, it can be really bad. Yeah. Like, it's, yeah. And I think it also depends on the, you know, the setting, of course, your level of comfort with people. Right. Like, that whole thing. But he's gotten very good I at will never trade the type of receptive creative brain that comes with having ADHD and that is, I'm gonna give you a metaphor that Marcy Caldwell gave me, who's she's all over this book. She gives she's the one with the mixing board and the fishbowl and all of these things are great metaphors. The neurotypical brain is like a VIP party with a bouncer who will expertly let in thoughts when they are supposed to come in. It is why they are better at listening and better at not interrupting. Okay? My brain is an open air concert. I can feel the wind. I can feel the rain, the temperature. There's a bunch of people. Everyone gets in. It's very noisy, and all of this all of this comes to me. Right? That makes it hard for me to listen because I'm getting these ideas. But when you wanna create something new, inspiration and creation is nothing more than finding things that are out there waiting to come to you. That's a that's a firm belief that I have, and I feel all of it. So when I'm in a space of creation, things and I wanna say, well, things just come to me. No. That's my brain. That's the way that my brain is built. I'm I'm able to take all of this stimulus in the world and put it into something new, and that's ADHD. That's that's spontaneity, creativity, outside the box thinking. All of that comes from having that sort of receptive brain that causes problems everywhere else in the world. But if you can find a way to channel that into it could be music, art, writing, it it could be a new solution to a problem that you have in your company or your business. If you can harness that, it's really cool. Might even say awesome. It is. Yeah. And that concludes our enjoyment. It's such a Thank you for joining us. Don't have to See you back here next time. We have so much time, but it just felt like a good butt night. No. No. It's we're done. We're done. We're out. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. That was so much fun.

[42:18]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you love it, please leave a review and follow us on social Zippy Owens and at Zippy Readers.