Phillipa Soo and Maris Pasquale Doran, PIPER CHEN SINGS
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Philip Asu and Maris Pescual Doran are co-authors of Piper Chen Zings.
[0:36]Philip Asu is an actor and singer, best known for originating the role of Eliza in Broadway's critically acclaimed Hamilton.
[0:44]He lies a- earning her a Tony nomination, did you like that, a Grammy win, and an Emmy nomination
[0:50]for the award-winning film on Disney+.
[0:53]She has also appeared as Cinderella in Into the Woods on Broadway,
[0:56]and Guenovir and Aaron Sorkin's Broadway revival of Camelot among many other plays and musicals.
[1:02]She stars in the film adaptation of Taylor Jenkins Reads Best Selling Novel, One True Loves,
[1:08]and voices the moon goddess, change in Netflix's animated feature over the moon.
[1:13]On television, Sue can be seen in Hulu's Dopesick and in Apple TV Plus' Shining Girls.
[1:18]She resides in Brooklyn with her husband and fellow actor, Steven Pescual.
[1:23]Maris Pescual Doran, who is her sister-in-law, L-C-S-W, has always loved listening to
[1:29]and learning from people's personal narratives, and has evolved her career in social work
[1:33]to include writing and creating her own characters and stories.
[1:36]Piper Chen Zings is her first publication.
[1:39]She continues to work as a private psychotherapist,
[1:41]and is an adjunct lecturer at Columbia University's School of Social Work.
[1:45]She lives in Maplewood, New Jersey, with her husband and two young children,
[1:48]reading to them is always her favorite part of the day.
[1:51]Okay, welcome today, we have Phillip the Sue, who I just find out goes by Pippa.
[1:57]And her sister-in-law, Maris Pescual, am I pronouncing your right Doran?
[2:02]Yes, Pescual, yep, Pescual Doran.
[2:04]Who are the co-authors of this fabulous new children's book, Piper Chen Zings,
[2:10]which is beautiful and inspiring and so useful for anyone with any sort of stage fright.
[2:16]Congratulations.
[2:17]Thank you.
[2:18]Thank you.
[2:19]This wanting to feel this flap of the butterflies thing is really relevant at any age,
[2:24]because so many things can cause these butterflies, not just the singing,
[2:27]which of course is, I think, one of the bigger messages of the book, right?
[2:31]Exactly.
[2:31]Yeah, when we were, when we were devising, you know, what this idea would be,
[2:36]it became very clear that, yes, though it was about stage fright,
[2:41]it was also about feelings and having big feelings in general, as we see from all of our young
[2:47]friends out there, there's a lot going on and there's a lot to discover about your body
[2:52]and your feelings and your emotions.
[2:54]And so it became really important to us to make sure that, you know, this book was able to
[2:59]display a very specific story and a very specific character and her own experience and give
[3:06]them tools to be able to deal with all of these big, big feelings.
[3:09]I'm in for parents.
[3:11]Oh, yeah.
[3:12]Yes.
[3:14]Yes, some hands.
[3:18]Forget these two young people with big feelings.
[3:20]Yeah, what about us?
[3:21]Yeah, we're the one reading the thing over and over anyway.
[3:26]But how did you two decide to collaborate on this and everything?
[3:29]Well, at least on my end of it started with, I did an afterward for the Eliza Hamilton
[3:35]children's picture book, and that was also through Random House.
[3:40]And you know, at the time they were basically like, if you ever have any ideas for a kid's
[3:45]book, you know, just just reach out.
[3:47]And of course, I think like many artists and like many people, I had a huge amount of imposter
[3:53]syndrome.
[3:53]How could I ever be a writer, you know, what I do, I interpret and I enjoy taking on leadership
[4:01]roles and rooms.
[4:02]I really felt like, ooh, like, I don't know if I can do that.
[4:06]You know, it was scary and vulnerable.
[4:08]And I think, you know, about a year or so later, Maris and I, as we are sisters in law,
[4:13]we were at the annual Pascual Christmas Party, Christmas Eve Party to be exact.
[4:20]And just chatting about children's books and how amazing it would be to write a children's book.
[4:24]And I think I was like, well, let's do it together.
[4:27]Let's try one.
[4:30]I think that's organically.
[4:32]Yeah, I think that's why writing was always scary to me because it's something
[4:35]I love working with people.
[4:36]And it's something that you, for a lot of people, you have to do alone.
[4:39]And so the idea of collaborating with Maris, who I think is not only an incredible woman,
[4:45]a very smart woman who understands stories very well, but also is a mom and has a perspective
[4:51]that I don't necessarily have someone who doesn't have kids of my own.
[4:56]And I was like, yeah, let's, let's collaborate.
[4:58]This is going to be, we'll see.
[4:59]We don't, we don't even know what it's going to be like.
[5:01]Let's just, let's just throw some ideas.
[5:03]At the time it was like 2018, there was a lot of things happening in the world.
[5:10]And we just felt like we, I felt like I really wanted to have something that could reach out
[5:16]and help young people because I could see the world around me and how intense that was for me.
[5:22]And thinking to myself, oh man, I wish I could give something to young people.
[5:26]Also kind of stemmed from this idea, I get asked a lot in interviews and by fans,
[5:32]what would you tell your younger self?
[5:35]And so for me, this book was kind of an answer to that.
[5:38]I would not ask that question.
[5:42]But Maris kind of has her own way into it as well.
[5:46]Yeah, our collaboration certainly came through that organically and that fun, right?
[5:50]I mean, truly just at the Christmas party chatting and hanging out and I was
[5:53]inundated in picture book world.
[5:55]At the time as I have two young boys, they're just under two years apart.
[5:58]So I was reading often, you know, and in that phase where they were beginning reading,
[6:04]and I put that in quotes because they were sort of memorizing and that gorgeous
[6:08]experience of reading picture books that are more lyrical and fun and almost poetic
[6:12]and they're finishing the sentences and it just was the best part.
[6:16]I said this in my bio and I say it all the time because it remains as such, even though they're
[6:20]older, it's the best part of the day reading with them.
[6:22]It's such a nurturing, loving, intimate time, quiet, a little less stimuli.
[6:27]It's a really beautiful and special time and something to experience.
[6:31]And as I said, I've been really inundated with these titles and these beautiful pictures and this
[6:36]medium and it had fun kind of creating some little ones of my own or little vignettes here and
[6:41]there with them, which Pippa knew and said, gosh, you know, to your point earlier,
[6:45]Pippa, I get asked this all the time and this is something I have this opportunity through
[6:49]this relationship and what do you think? And we had a blast. I mean, in the beginning,
[6:52]I think it was more just like an excuse to grab dinner. We were like, let's just get together
[6:57]a lot and have fun. We were shooting for the mood. Our ideas were all over the place and
[7:02]really centering it on Piper as a character because as Pippa says, I find the world was unique and
[7:07]hard for many and, you know, I'm a psychotherapist in my day job to be able to bring some of that
[7:11]into this book and to be able to center a Chinese-American character and a female felt really
[7:16]important for us or kids who see themselves in her and kids like my two boys who do not
[7:22]and yet have similar parallel experiences, whether it's stage fright-specific or going to a first
[7:27]day of school or camp or whatever the new experiences or being a mom and a professional and having
[7:33]your very first podcast. Whatever it is, this is our problem now. Are there some butterflies
[7:39]flapping around to your Zoom screen today? They're settling once I begin to speak.
[7:46]Such a coincidence. Very meta. Maybe one of you should explain like the plot of the book.
[7:53]Yeah, so the story is about a young girl named Piper Chen. She loves to sing. She'll sing,
[8:01]you know, all over the house. She sings on her way to school. She sings while she's in school,
[8:05]very quietly if she's in the library. And she loves her singing her music class in which she is
[8:13]singing in it. And her teacher asks her if she wants to sing a solo in the spring sing, which is
[8:20]coming up. And at first she says, yes, very excitedly. And then starts to realize she's having
[8:26]these complicated feelings about what that will mean, i.e. the butterflies. And through going
[8:34]to her loving nine eye, her grandmother, and asking what she should do about these butterflies,
[8:39]she gets a tool which enables her to be able to deal with these feelings that she has,
[8:45]not to spoil the ending, but she's able to realize that she has a choice in the matter,
[8:49]and that she can hold many feelings at once being excited and being scared and ultimately
[8:56]have the autonomy to make a decision for herself, but what she wants to do with those feelings.
[9:01]And it'd be funny at the end is that it was like horrible and traumatic and she like,
[9:07]and then that leads into like your therapy practice and we fast forward and she's like in the chair.
[9:13]Exactly. This one time with the spring sing, exactly. We have set off and though,
[9:19]you know, for some kids, the brave choice is not doing nothing, right? So like, you know,
[9:23]a real intention of being aware of self and what feelings are coming up for you in various
[9:29]moments of your life to help inform how you can be empowered to move forward and move through it.
[9:34]And for many people, those butterflies are this really beautiful, innocuous telling you something
[9:39]exciting as a head like our Piper. And for some, it may be a different experience and indeed,
[9:44]not doing the thing or doing the thing that's different from maybe the rest of the group,
[9:49]maybe the brave choice. So it's, you know, it's a joke and a funny one, but it's really
[9:53]true. Maybe that isn't the ending for all and that could be okay too. And just to be aware that
[9:58]we're all kind of individual.
[10:00]and listening to ourselves and being aware of what does come up for us was an
[10:04]intention. We have that, you know, the grown-ups will probably see a little more
[10:07]than because in terms of plot line. I heard this whole essay at one point about I'm
[10:11]married for a second time. I mean, it's been like seven years, but I read about
[10:15]how when I was dating my current husband, we had this whole thing where he was
[10:18]talking about butterflies. I'm like, you know, they go away, right? Like, this is
[10:21]thinking of last. And he's like, don't crush my butterflies. So we still like joke
[10:27]about that. And, you know, you really sometimes you want those. Sometimes you want the little
[10:31]flappers to stick around. Well, another question that I often get asked is like, what do you do
[10:36]if you're nervous? Because I have a lot of young people who I think love singing and it brings them
[10:42]joy or performing or there's something that brings them joy and they feel nervous about it. And I'm
[10:47]like, well, quite frankly, for myself, my nervous feelings oftentimes come to tell me that
[10:53]there's something exciting happening. And it's because I care. It's really actually because I
[10:57]care that I'm nervous as opposed to I don't want to do it that I'm nervous. But that's like a
[11:02]feeling that I had to assess and look at and examine myself. You know, for them, they might be
[11:07]nervous because they have a legitimate stage fright. And you know, and like, that's okay too. But,
[11:14]you know, I think when we were crafting this book, it became really important to us that we
[11:18]not only just gave a tool, but also like a way for people to help themselves, like in their lives
[11:24]when these butterflies come up, like what exactly that means. And there's science out there that
[11:28]tells us like once we acknowledge something that is making us anxious, giving us like
[11:34]nervous feelings, that these feelings can dissipate among just the simple act of acknowledging
[11:42]that it's a real thing that has happened. So that was sort of our goal when craft and
[11:45]story, because we were hoping that it didn't feel like something that was prescriptive. And like
[11:50]something you can do all the time. And every time you feel nervous, this is exactly what you do.
[11:54]You know, we really wanted to work hard to make it interpretive and specific to her own experience
[11:59]so that it could be in its specificity have this universality, right?
[12:04]Well, it's good because a lot of advice is what you have to do, right? Like take three deep breaths
[12:10]or you know, is there's like all this stuff, I guess, to your point about being prescriptive,
[12:15]but having an attitude shift around it and like welcoming the butterflies and being like,
[12:20]okay, you know, maybe they get to a point where they're like, okay, I'm here, I'm waiting,
[12:24]you know, maybe you start giving up nets, right? So you have to be ready to catch them ahead of
[12:29]time. So then it comes, you know, like, Oh, few, here we go. I mean, I love where you're going with it
[12:33]because the metaphor could keep going, right? I'll stop. I'll stop. I'll stop. I'll add to that
[12:38]to say, like, you can catch a butterfly. You can look at it. You can examine it. Yup. You can
[12:44]actually like ask yourself like, why am I terrified of this? But the minute that you just like try
[12:48]and shoot them away and pretend like they're not there, that's when they're going to come back full
[12:52]force. Right. They're not mosquitoes. They're beautiful. Right. This would be a totally different
[12:58]book if you were swarmed by locust or something. Do the two of you have plans for more books
[13:04]together? Yeah, perhaps we are hopeful to be able to grow Piper and her world. That's an
[13:11]opportunity for books that we've certainly between the two of us have a lot of ideas and themes
[13:15]and concepts about what she and the characters in her world could do and go and what else we can
[13:22]put out. And is Piper actually going to sing somewhere? Like, do we get to hear her? Also,
[13:27]something that we're thinking about. Right. Well, actually, I can see this, there will be an audio
[13:33]book version, which will be available in the near future probably around the same time that
[13:38]the book comes out. Same release, yeah, April 2nd. Yeah, it's release. And, you know, we were
[13:44]definitely incorporating music into that. I'm going to be narrating it. So, you know, the Piper,
[13:51]Chen sings, we'll definitely have elements of music to it and I will be narrating it. But,
[13:56]yeah, we've definitely been thinking a lot about in the vein of what else can Piper be. You know,
[14:01]there's a lot going on with this little girl and she has a lot to share. So, yes, there's
[14:06]music involved and we hope that there will be more. I still think you could fast forward and make
[14:10]a novel about her. You know, I like that. You know, we've talked about that. Okay, it's interesting.
[14:18]I mean, you've written a children's book as well. Oh, thank you for even knowing that. But,
[14:22]yeah, I did. I'm curious, like, compared to writing novels, like, when do you know if an idea,
[14:27]aside from the fact that like, it's about a child or a child's involved, like, when do you know
[14:31]if an idea or a story is meant to be a long form or meant to be short-formers? That's a great
[14:37]great question, especially that you have released this week. Don't you think? I do. Look at you,
[14:41]guys. Congrats so much. Thank you for researching who I am. That's really sweet. I appreciate it.
[14:46]I would say it has to have a lot of, like, what if threads going off it to be a novel? It would
[14:51]have to say, like, what happens when this huge event in Pippuccine's life gets derailed? Like,
[14:58]how many areas of her life is that can impact and why? And like, what is going to be turned around,
[15:03]you know? And then once you go there, it could go anywhere, right? Then you have so many
[15:07]places to take it. Don't you think? So her canvas is just much, much, much, much bigger in terms of
[15:12]the risk. That's a great idea. And then it's fun to think about her, you know, does she lose her
[15:17]grandmother at some point? Like, that's a lovely relationship. Yeah. When her grandmother became
[15:22]a citizen, like, that was so beautiful. Is she like, in her office later in life?
[15:25]Like, it's a wall or exactly. I have sister. I don't know why I'm even going off in this hole.
[15:32]No, I love it. All in the vein of world building, which is something that I'm obsessed with.
[15:38]And I think Maris, you're also obsessed with just this idea that stories can take you
[15:42]just so many different places, even if it's just one character. Yes. And so much better than it
[15:48]being like, don't be nervous. You're getting that stage. You know, I heard myself saying that too
[15:53]one of my kids the other day. Like, I'm so wordlessly wicked. And I'm like, oh, don't worry. And I'm like,
[15:57]oh my gosh, this is the worst advice ever. I take it back. But that's okay. Right. Or is
[16:02]not the number one thing we're learning as moms is to be able to say like, actually, I'm rethinking
[16:06]that. Yes. And indeed, that's my stuff because I hope you're okay. I know you will be. Right.
[16:12]And yeah, exactly. Like, I work on that every single day. I've got two young boys of just holding
[16:17]the experience with them. Yes. That's hard for people who want that's hard. Just go away. That's
[16:22]hard. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Pivot. Did you ever have stage fright? And as Hamilton got more in
[16:29]bigger and bigger, like, with so many people even watching it, or like, such big deal people,
[16:34]like, does that freak you out ever? Like, do you ever do get butterflies when you perform now?
[16:38]Yes. I get butterflies all the time. I mean, in, you know, different varying levels. I think that
[16:44]I've gotten way better at managing that. I mean, you know, I used to say it was just the difference
[16:50]between how much time it took me to laugh about it is the like measure of my progress. So,
[16:56]you know, getting super nervous or doing a show and then coming off stage and feeling like,
[17:01]that wasn't a great show. Or, you know, about to step on stage and feeling like, I'm so nervous.
[17:06]I feel like my guts are going to explode. You know, like the minute the amount of minute it takes
[17:13]for me to laugh about it after the fact is just my measure of how successful I am in handling it.
[17:18]You know, like growing up, I think I just tended to be more of a perfectionist, like checking the boxes
[17:24]and like getting the good grades. And it took a long time for me to understand that progress isn't
[17:30]always just, you know, checking a box and then, you know, wiping your hands clean. Like, I did it
[17:35]success. There will be things as an artist, as a person, really, that you will come up
[17:42]against that you won't necessarily be able to get rid of. But you have power and autonomy and control
[17:48]over how you handle them. That's really the only thing that you have control over. And then maybe
[17:53]one day, my nervous butterflies will go away or they'll be like a whisper of what they were,
[17:59]you know, 10 years ago when I was first starting out and I was trying to like prove myself to
[18:03]the world. It was just really, really valuable advice that I got. And, you know, I was so lucky
[18:10]it was something like Hamilton, which was very much a part of my start in this business that I
[18:15]was just surrounded by people who, you know, had been doing it for longer than myself and had
[18:20]really great, healthy perspectives on how to handle all the ups and downs, all the butterflies,
[18:28]all the storms and the rainbows and the sunshine and the highs and the lows, like it's a lot.
[18:35]And, you know, you have to be an aware person to be able to handle all of it.
[18:39]And, Marys, do you in your practice, like have your regular go-to's of how to help people get through
[18:46]things like that? Sure. I mean, I'm a very mindfulness-based in terms of my therapeutic approach.
[18:51]So, I mean, before every single session, we set our space, we set intention, right? We do that
[18:56]sort of practice of slowing down, of anchoring, of being grounded. And I encourage them all and
[19:04]everyone, because in my personal life, it's been such a gift, right? So I have a mindfulness
[19:08]practice, and that can really help, because it is, at the same, just that awareness of what's
[19:12]happening for you and to be able to say, well, how much is this allowed to drive, right? So maybe
[19:18]I'm feeling anxiety, maybe anxiety is coming up and being aware of that, because almost every
[19:23]single person that I see professionally or personally is managing their emotional reactivity.
[19:29]That's pretty much, you know, that's a big theme for most people, parents certainly,
[19:34]but all human beings, right? And so being aware of what's going on for you and as it's coming up,
[19:39]as well as the physical self, right? So we usually don't go from zero to a hundred like that.
[19:44]Things are sort of building our tensions coming and sort of know who you are in various
[19:49]environments and see those symbols and signs that are kind of speaking to you and to say, okay,
[19:54]I may be anxious. Hi, they're allowed to be here with me. You're allowed to be in the car. We can't
[20:00]drive, right? That sort of concept of how to say, okay, you're here. And also then as
[20:05]put the same right, let's interpret that. What does that mean? So are these nervous butterflies,
[20:08]which is most people talk about in this really innocuous and, in fact, really beautiful way?
[20:13]Or is this, you know, some sort of trigger of a threat, really, something that's going on?
[20:19]And have those synapses been formed because we have viral arms going off when they shouldn't.
[20:25]Do we have a little bit of a faulty system? And then where there's a lot of work and some
[20:28]cognition, et cetera, and reframing that and on rebuilding. Or indeed is that a response that's
[20:33]totally appropriate. And that is indeed how you want to be in your life, right? So many people pursue
[20:38]therapeutic intervention first and sort of crisis or change, but most of us would really benefit,
[20:43]but just understanding how are we built? How did we get here? What are the very, very, very,
[20:48]unique circumstances that led me to this exact place of moment? And am I moving forward throughout my
[20:53]life in ways that make sense for me that I feel good about, right? My communication, all those
[20:58]pieces. So, and the biggest thing I think that I say one million times a day, no doubts, and that
[21:04]comes up in our book with Piper, is that seemingly conflicting concept of two emotions that seem
[21:11]in conflict and that truly do coexist, right? So if we're her, it's feeling both during
[21:16]nervous, a little scared and extremely excited. And this thing that she really, really loves.
[21:21]And most of us children and adults alike have that experience also often throughout our lives,
[21:26]where it feels like two competing concepts. Indeed, they really are. And that we have this
[21:30]ability as humans as beautiful humans with this high-functioning brain to truly have both at once
[21:36]and be able to sort of shift through and just be aware of both of those things and say,
[21:39]well, which gets to lead my action? Well, I'm going to book an appointment with you either for myself
[21:46]or one of the one or all of the kids take your pick on an even day. I found myself like,
[21:52]my shoulders literally relaxed as you were saying all that. I was like, oh, I have like an inch.
[21:56]Oh, good. Oh, good. Well, wouldn't we all benefit me with work on it every day in my life,
[22:02]right? When we all benefit of just even taking that extra breath between meetings or that breath
[22:06]before we react to the child or sitting in traffic, you know, whatever it is to just say,
[22:11]all right, and it doesn't mean suddenly we're like, and then walking through the world.
[22:15]Oh, come on, not at all. In fact, I'm absolutely an emotional day ball human being, but that's
[22:20]okay. That's who I am. And I'm comfortable, right? But to do it, I say that emotional reactivity
[22:24]is not working for me. So indeed, where does it root from and how do I maybe shift some of that?
[22:30]So how does your husband slash your brother feel about this book and the collaboration and
[22:35]was he a little bit nervous? He guys were getting close and like, what was going to come in?
[22:39]Is there any of that? He's so excited. Like I think more than any other feeling, he's just like,
[22:46]I just can't believe like two people that I love so much are first of all, just getting along.
[22:53]And also like creating something together. Like I have to say, like, I'm going to get mushy now,
[22:57]Maris, but this has been so meaningful and just in getting to know you as a sister and as a friend,
[23:04]because you know, we've really been able to be vulnerable with each other in a really beautiful way.
[23:09]And it's it's been one of my favorite collaborations that I've ever had.
[23:14]And Steve, he's just really excited. If anything, he's like so jealous that we're talking all
[23:19]the time. And we're hanging out without him, you know, he likes the hang. We like to hang out with
[23:24]each other, you know, that's the beauty of this whole family. But yeah, it's been so meaningful. And
[23:28]to get to see that reflected in Steve has been also so meaningful because I see him see how special
[23:34]it is. And it's always a lovely reminder, you know, stepping outside of my own head, getting to see
[23:40]that in him. It makes me feel so grateful. I feel the exact same way, you know that I do. I hope that
[23:45]you know, I do. But it has just been an absolute joy. We joke. It's most fun. We've ever worked.
[23:50]It's such a joy. Every single step of the collaboration has been fun. It's been a really
[23:56]surprising aspect of this process of like this is just a blast. And we're having a great time and
[24:02]Aunt Pippa is such a huge role in my kid's life. So to be able to talk to them about it and have
[24:07]them watch us and what we're building and all these pieces. It's awesome. And it's fun on the side
[24:12]that I can text you after we have a moment and be like, I really appreciate the intro to my writing
[24:16]partner. Wait, Pippa, and I should know this, I guess. But do you have siblings? I do. I have an older
[24:22]brother. So now he should write a book with Steve. Yes, that's right. Exactly. We can have a whole
[24:29]series. Oh, yeah. Everybody, one big happy family will be all in the family. Having written the book,
[24:36]dude, the two of you have advice for aspiring authors. Whoa. Find an amazing partner. Find a partner
[24:42]like Phillipa Sue. If you have the chance to collaborate with Phillipa Sue in your life, take it.
[24:47]The three people out there are very excited to go forward with that. I'm choosing. I think, you know,
[24:53]a big piece is one thing that was really awesome for us in terms of how it worked for us. So
[24:58]it may or may not be helpful to others. I thought that something that was wonderful and it speaks
[25:02]to you that that into our partnership is that we were able to be totally vulnerable and throw out
[25:09]all kinds of ideas, right? We weren't paralyzed by that one. That thing's not good or I don't know
[25:14]or how would you react to that or what do you think or is this too out there? I mean, this came down
[25:20]to Piper Chen's things, but it began a sort of this whole world in concept. We went a number of
[25:24]different directions before we landed on this specific plot line and to be able to just put anything
[25:29]out there and throw it at the wall and really have a vulnerable awesome brainstorm together
[25:35]opened up. I think a lot of our creativity, a lot of our collaboration made us feel safe together,
[25:39]made us have fun together that beginning. I thought was really pivotal to setting the foundation
[25:44]for really what a joy it was through the whole time and hopefully ending in the place that
[25:48]we're really proud of the book itself. Yeah. I feel like my advice would be because I've always
[25:54]been an interpreter in my creation and so creating something and it really like when people say
[26:01]this, it's really true. Like it feels like your child. I don't know if you ever felt like that about
[26:05]your own book city, but you have this child, right? And I think the metaphor is just because
[26:12]it's coming from you. There's someone in it, but you also have to allow it to be what it wants
[26:19]to be. It will organically lead you down roads. People often asked Maris and myself about like,
[26:27]what was your process like? And the first thing first, we had to most of it on FaceTime because
[26:32]it was pandemic. We couldn't wait those two weeks to get that test and make sure that we were
[26:38]completely COVID-free. So we would meet weekly, bi-weekly, and it would just depend on what was
[26:45]floating, what ideas we were running with. And it sort of, at a certain point, the piece was
[26:51]letting us know what it needed. There was a lot of putting ourselves into it at the very beginning.
[26:57]And then once we had had something, it really felt like, and Maris told me if you agreed, this
[27:01]level of flow that just sort of indicated where there were holes, where ideas were incomplete,
[27:08]certain things. For example, language surrounding, acknowledging your feelings, and the conversation
[27:14]okay, so we want to make sure that everybody knows that this is specific to Piper. Just because you're
[27:20]feeling nervous doesn't mean like something exciting is happening, that it couldn't mean that.
[27:24]And how can we get specific about the language? And so there was a lot of intention put into tiny,
[27:30]little teeny, tiny moments, which sometimes took a whole session where we were on FaceTime for two
[27:35]hours talking about how the language should be. And then there were days where it felt like,
[27:40]just paragraphs. And all these stances came out of a week's worth of work. And it ebbed
[27:47]and flowed. And I guess my advice would be, it's going to have ups and downs. It's not going to
[27:51]look like what you think it's going to look like. But you do have to have a certain amount of care
[27:56]and intention, but be open to let it change and guide you to places that maybe you wouldn't
[28:02]necessarily go to. I love that. That is all fabulous advice. And I hope that you do something
[28:08]with the beautiful artwork, like the butterflies and the end papers and all of it is so gorgeous.
[28:14]I hope it becomes a wallpaper or I don't know what you're going to do with it, but I'm obsessed.
[28:18]It's absolutely beautiful. Well, a huge in length. Yeah, Chin Lang is our illustrator. And she really,
[28:25]I mean, we had an idea of what we wanted. And she really just like brought it to life. The color is
[28:30]fabulous. Each kid has their own personality seeing Piper for the first time. I mean, it was like,
[28:36]it was like something coming to life. We were like, oh my gosh, she's real. And she's a real little
[28:40]girl. And that's all because of Chin's amazing. She's incredible. Wow. Well, fabulous collaboration
[28:46]all around and great book. And it was so much fun getting to know the two of you and wishing you
[28:51]all the best with this fabulous new launch. Exciting. Thank you so much, Debbie. Congrats to you.
[28:56]Thank you. Thank you. All right. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you.