Susan Lieu, THE MANICURIST'S DAUGHTER: A Memoir
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZippyMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zippy Owens or join the community at ZippyReaders. Susan Liu is the author of the
[0:34]Medicareist's Daughter of Memoir, and this is actually my book club pick for Zippy's book club.
[0:40]So read along with us, and if you would like to come to our book club meeting, you can
[0:44]listen to a Q&A with the book club. Susan Liu is a Vietnamese-American author, playwright,
[0:50]and performer who tells stories that refuse to be forgotten. A daughter of nail salon workers,
[0:54]she took her autobiographical solo theater show, 140 pounds, how beauty killed my mother,
[1:00]on a ten-city national tour with sold-out premieres and accolades from LA Times,
[1:05]NPR, and American theater. Eight months pregnant, she premiered her sequel,
[1:09]over 140 pounds, as the headliner for Act Theatre's solo fest. Within one year, she held 60
[1:16]performances to over 7,000 people. Her award-winning work has been featured at Bumbershoot,
[1:22]Wing Lake Museum, the moth main stage on the boards, the World Economic Forum, Risk,
[1:27]C-A-A-T-A Confessed, Viet Film Fest, and she has spoken it more than a dozen universities around
[1:33]the country. She serves as an artist, mentor, artist, trust instructor, model minority,
[1:39]mom's podcaster, and board member for international NGO asylum access. As an activist,
[1:45]she worked with consumer watchdog to pass a law to raise medical mail practice caps.
[1:50]Susan and her sister co-founded So Cola Chocolatier in Artisanal Chocolate Company based in San
[1:56]Francisco. I'm going to San Francisco soon, and I obviously really need to go get the chocolates.
[2:01]She is a proud alumnus of Harvard College, Yale School of Management,
[2:05]Coro, Hedgebrook, and Vashon Artist Residency. Susan lives with her husband and son in Seattle,
[2:10]where they enjoy mushroom hunting, croissants, and big family gatherings.
[2:14]The manicure of daughter is her first book. Learn more at Susan Liu, L-I-E-U,
[2:20]dot me, and follow her on Instagram at Susan Liu. Welcome, Susan. Thanks so much for coming on
[2:26]mom's don't have time to read books. Our very first live studio edition where we have cameras,
[2:32]and phones, and lights, and computers. So I don't know. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for
[2:36]having me. It's my first podcast interview. Oh my gosh. How is it so far? It's pretty wild.
[2:42]Pretty wild. It's 40. It's 40 experience right now. It's 40. Oh my gosh. And as I will have mentioned
[2:49]in the introduction, I picked this for my book club because I just loved your book so much.
[2:53]That's so good. Thank you so much. I couldn't stop reading. I wanted to know everything about you.
[2:57]Now I feel like, you know, as you do with memoir. Now you do know everything about me that relates
[3:02]to the through line. That's right. That relates to the through line. And that's like the whole thing
[3:05]with memoir, right? There's all this stuff you can leave out, but people feel like they know you anyway.
[3:09]That's right. Yeah. What did you leave in? I mean, there was like different stories related
[3:16]to the food. So there's this one story of me and my mom eating this noodle soup, and she keeps
[3:19]pressuring me to keep finishing it. And the description of me eventually vomiting it up. It goes on
[3:26]for many paragraphs. And my editor is like, strike. She's like, I think we're good. I think we got
[3:30]the idea. I was like, are you sure talking about travelers diary and Vietnam the first time and
[3:35]when is a kid? She's like, strike. I was like, okay, I just wanted to be authentic. She's like,
[3:40]we got the idea. So maybe those graphic things related to my body. Interesting.
[3:45]Maybe you could do like a little like on the website, you know, very graphic.
[3:49]And they just put the graphic section for anyone who wants to like, yeah, you can just do this.
[3:53]Do you just do it? Yeah. Yeah. Come to the morning. Okay. The manicure is daughter, a memoir,
[3:57]tell everybody what your book is about. Please. Oh my gosh. It's my story to know my mother who
[4:03]died from a botched plastic surgery when I was 11. And the issue here is for the next two decades
[4:08]after my mom died, my family has never spoken of her or how she died. And so on the brink of mother
[4:14]hood, before I was getting all this pressure from my dad, my aunt's to have kids. And I was just
[4:19]like, hold on. How can I become a mom if I don't know her? So I go on this wild goose chase to know
[4:25]her. I seek the help of spirit channelers, read thousands of pages of depositions, even track
[4:30]down the plastic surgeon's family. So I can get answers. And every time I learn something new,
[4:35]I put it on stage in a one woman show, which I eventually tour across the country in a way to
[4:41]to know her and to know myself. Way to take your pain and make it art. Do you know what I mean? Like,
[4:47]you do that on a daily basis. You do it in here in the book. All of the loss and confusion and
[4:54]unanswered questions. It's like we get to go through it with you. Yeah. I wish like my actual life
[4:59]experience was that like streamline, though, like I think when I was going through it and living
[5:03]through it, it was so confusing. Like to grow up as a young kid and your entire family. Just
[5:09]pretend it never happened is a pretty strange experience. It was very lonely. I bet. I mean,
[5:14]my heart broke for you in this book. There was a moment where you went to school and finally told
[5:18]the woman like in the playground, some teacher. And you were like sobbing. And you were finally like
[5:23]my mom died and you cried for the very first time. It like broke my heart. And you got that hug
[5:27]you so needed. And your family was just like, you okay? Yeah. Your family was just like, you
[5:32]know, plowing ahead. You know? Yeah. I mean, I think growing up getting these Americans like we
[5:37]are very emotionally repressed. We don't hug. We don't say how are you? What are you up to? I'm
[5:43]proud of you. Like we don't connect on that way. The only way we connect is through food, which
[5:48]is rotten in this book because there's so much body shaming that happens even after my mom dies
[5:53]from a botched tummy tuck. But that's exactly right. That the first time I was able to actually
[5:58]cry was with a stranger. What you say about body image runs through the book. And you know,
[6:02]there's a particularly powerful scene sort of at the very end, sort of like book ending,
[6:05]like you finding your voice and being able to sort of stick up for yourself. There was a moment where
[6:11]you realize your mother is just very much like you, right? Like you're like, oh, maybe we have
[6:17]the same body and there's like nothing wrong with that. And you know, why is there so much pressure?
[6:22]And then you look into the, to the cultural reasons why like what were, what was your mom being
[6:27]fed? Right? What, what ads was she seeing and where? Are you okay? Yeah. I'm like, I'm in it
[6:34]right now. I'm like, yeah, this is so sad. So yeah, it's, it's my mom grew up in rural Mekong Delta
[6:41]in Vietnam, post Vietnam war. And she couldn't finish high school. She had to drop out ninth
[6:48]grade to support her family and then eventually get married to support the family, right? Like
[6:53]the options that women had at that time was very limited. And so your value was determined by
[6:59]how you look. And so in a way, generationally, for my father and my aunts to put a lot of pressure
[7:05]onto me about, like, no one's going to love you if you're too fat, you know? And it's like,
[7:11]the word fat, I mean, it's like I usually generously, but basically if I wasn't a double zero,
[7:15]right? Yeah. And that was the context in which they're growing up and that's what women were subject
[7:21]to in terms of what their worth was, right? So I understand that at the same time as an adult now
[7:28]with my own kid, I'm like, you know, that was pretty messed up. Isn't it funny how like, I mean,
[7:32]I come from a Jewish family where people get me about weight all the time. Like, we have our own
[7:37]way, but it's a little different, right? It's not as overt. It's almost worse.
[7:42]What's an example? No, like, you know, my grandmother, I would go visit her and she'd say like,
[7:48]oh, honey, like, maybe you've put on some weight, let's say like, you know, yeah, or now or whatever.
[7:53]And then I would come home and like, on her calligraphy stationery, I would have like, you know,
[7:57]five scripts pages of how I need to work on my body and my weight and what I should do. And
[8:04]you know what I mean? Like, yeah, she did it with elegance with elegance. Maybe that's the word. Yeah,
[8:08]she, yeah, not as like, lose weight, you know, but we're like, let me convince you why. Yeah,
[8:13]but maybe even more painful because she thought about it for an hour, right? I know, I'm like,
[8:16]oh my gosh, the amount of work that went into this letter. Yeah, she was, she was by it,
[8:22]you know. Anyway, I won't even go into it. I mean, a lot of families in the lot of cultures
[8:27]prioritize weight and body and do it in like different ways, but it is a shame. And I feel like now
[8:32]we've at least reached a cultural moment where women are age, like, what can we do with our daughters?
[8:37]Yeah, totally her kids. So I don't know, although I feel like I'm already missing out my kids.
[8:41]So you have me both. You know, I just came out with my TEDx talk. It just dropped on Friday.
[8:46]Oh my gosh, I didn't see it. Yeah. And it's called how to make peace with your belly fat.
[8:51]And it was like, it was about how my ancestors slapped me around in a sweat lodge trying to get my
[8:56]head on straight about all this pain, this intergenerational trauma that I'm trying to process.
[9:01]And then I started looking in the comments and it was the worst. It was like, well, maybe you should
[9:05]eat salad. And then it goes on and on. And I was like, oh my God, like I've just interacted with trolls.
[9:11]Yeah. It's a scary place out there. Yeah. You can't. You just don't know more comments for you.
[9:16]You know, yeah, but I mean, it's still very tempting. But even in this age of body positivity,
[9:21]where we think we're at a new place, we're not. Yeah. Okay. Talk to me about the fact that your
[9:27]family can channel spirits. I mean, you put it as like, oh, yeah, that's just something that
[9:31]happened the way, like, you know, we might go to the movies or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like we just
[9:36]have people in the family who like convulse and take the spirit of somebody else and then get really
[9:40]tired and we have to pick them up and drop them somewhere else. Yeah. That's really cool.
[9:45]I'm like, cool. It's amazing. It's amazing. Is it like, this is totally kind of like,
[9:52]tell me about this. It was amazing. I had to tell me about this. Okay. So growing up, my dad could
[9:58]channel spirits. So it's kind of like,
[10:00]when you watch the movie Ghost and it will be Goldberg,
[10:02]like gets channeled by Patrick Swayze
[10:04]and you're like, wait, what's happening here?
[10:05]But she can convey messages.
[10:07]And so that was really normal.
[10:08]My dad used to do it growing up.
[10:10]And we would sit around him and watch him hold him,
[10:12]hold space, see what messages he had from the ancestors.
[10:15]And so this was super normal to us.
[10:18]And then doing, do you ever like go to school
[10:21]or say like, this is what happened?
[10:23]No, that's, that would be crazy.
[10:24]But like you knew it was something
[10:26]like not to talk about or what?
[10:28]Yeah, I mean, I was already weird enough.
[10:31]You know what I mean?
[10:32]Like I had like bunnies where there's like pork floss.
[10:34]It looks like carpet.
[10:35]Like there's like, you know, like we don't eat cereal
[10:39]for breakfast, we like fish and rice.
[10:40]You know, it was, I was already knowing
[10:42]that I was different enough.
[10:43]I wasn't gonna, it was, it's hard to be like,
[10:46]hey, we're playing pogs, my dad's channel spirits.
[10:48]You know, like it's a hard to kind of weave it in.
[10:51]But it wasn't like my friends would come over
[10:52]and they would see it.
[10:53]It was a very private thing that would happen
[10:56]with the family.
[10:57]And I stressed this in the book
[10:58]that my dad is a super introverted person.
[11:01]So it's not like he's kind of faking it
[11:03]and getting attention.
[11:04]Like this is a thing that it was kind of a little uncontrollable
[11:07]for him and we would hold space for him.
[11:10]But like growing up, we would go visit
[11:12]other fortune tellers, psychic spirit channelers.
[11:14]We would go to their apartment, my mom and dad.
[11:16]It was just like a, you know, you go,
[11:17]get nail salon supplies on the weekend, groceries
[11:20]and go to the spirit channeler.
[11:21]Like it was just like on the punch list,
[11:23]the fabric of what we did growing up.
[11:26]I run into other people with talents along the way.
[11:30]And so you're gonna see Cindy the psychic
[11:32]and circle number nine.
[11:34]And they are also delivering messages
[11:36]from my mom on the other side throughout the book.
[11:38]So do you totally believe that all this people
[11:41]who have died can come back and talk to us
[11:43]at any time?
[11:44]I mean, it kind of depends on your karma.
[11:46]Like I kind of try to unpack that too
[11:48]of like the particulars of it.
[11:50]I'm not really sure.
[11:52]But I haven't figured out the entire universe.
[11:54]No, I haven't.
[11:55]I mean, Cindy the psychic says my mom's like
[11:58]because I haven't crossed over.
[11:59]She still has to fulfill her duty as mother and daughter.
[12:02]And so that's why she can still communicate to me.
[12:04]Like I don't know after I cross.
[12:06]Like if I can still find her, you know,
[12:09]or you know, what that's all about.
[12:11]Like do I think like I have past karma with my brother
[12:14]and sometimes I think who's my past husband?
[12:16]Yeah, a little bit, you know,
[12:17]but like do we ever talk about?
[12:18]No, but yeah, I mean, spirit channeling,
[12:21]it's just it was just part of growing up.
[12:23]Does that give you comfort about death?
[12:26]Oh God, grief comes and goes in so many different ways.
[12:28]You know, like there are times when I'm like,
[12:30]mom, it's by my side.
[12:32]And then sometimes I'm like, I'm so alone.
[12:34]Like I don't, what about your own death though?
[12:37]Oh yeah, I'm good on that.
[12:38]Yeah, yeah.
[12:39]Like I think that's why I live life the way I do
[12:41]is because I don't know when I'm gonna die.
[12:44]So and I wanna minimize regret.
[12:46]So if there's something I wanna do,
[12:47]I'm gonna go do it.
[12:48]Which has always been an awkward thing with HR professionals
[12:51]cause they like look at my resume.
[12:52]They're like, you're kind of a flight risk,
[12:54]but you're really passionate.
[12:55]I'm like, yeah, it's funny you mentioned your career
[12:59]because you talk about different jobs
[13:01]and different quests to figure out what to do
[13:03]when this job was working, then I was fired.
[13:07]But then I, what should I do this?
[13:08]Should I pursue the play?
[13:10]Should I, you know, and you've jumped around a bunch.
[13:13]But it all still works out.
[13:14]But in the time you didn't feel like anything was working on.
[13:17]Oh, of course not.
[13:18]Like my family was always concerned.
[13:20]They're like, Susan, do you have a job?
[13:22]Cause you went to Harvard.
[13:24]And I'd be like, you know, I'm following a bliss, you know,
[13:28]Oprah, and maybe be like, no, where's your job?
[13:31]Like my dentist brother can't keep giving me free cleanings.
[13:35]You know, they're like, get it together.
[13:37]And I think the gift that I was born with
[13:39]that I inherited after my mom died is that I just,
[13:42]I can't fake it.
[13:43]You know, like I have to do what I feel is the right thing to do.
[13:46]And it's very hard for me to not do that,
[13:49]which is ironic since I'm also a performer.
[13:51]Right. And it's like about taking on a role.
[13:54]But it just gave me a sense of like, I must do the thing
[13:57]that I intuitively feel is the right thing to do.
[14:00]Well, speaking of your brother, who you mentioned him in the
[14:02]own, I feel like I got to know everyone in your family
[14:05]a little bit through the book.
[14:07]The only piece we don't get to see in the book
[14:09]is how the people and the family react to the book itself.
[14:12]So how are they reacting to the book?
[14:14]We see them reacting to the show and how that ends up
[14:17]performing all of your performances and refining everything
[14:20]and getting to the bottom and healing and all of it.
[14:23]So now that it's also this beautiful memoir,
[14:27]what now, how is everybody?
[14:29]Everyone's in a different place.
[14:30]Okay.
[14:31]Okay.
[14:32]So like with my sister, she,
[14:34]when after the editor green lighted it and she was like,
[14:37]okay, I think we're going to go into production.
[14:39]I was like, give it back to me.
[14:40]Let me edit it one more time.
[14:41]And then I gave it to my sister and I said,
[14:42]Wendy, is there anything you want to tell me?
[14:45]Like you don't have editorial rights,
[14:46]but like just tell me.
[14:47]She had three small notes and I said,
[14:49]great, happy to edit that.
[14:52]And then we went into production.
[14:53]It was after I went into the printer
[14:57]that I showed it to my brothers.
[14:59]One brother is very down and one brother pretends
[15:02]we're not doing this.
[15:03]Okay.
[15:04]He never came to the show.
[15:05]So there's two brothers.
[15:06]Yep.
[15:07]And then with my dad,
[15:09]I just, he just received a finished copy.
[15:10]We haven't talked about it yet.
[15:12]He has never come to my shows.
[15:13]Oh my gosh.
[15:14]So come to Houston.
[15:15]We won't have a relationship.
[15:17]So consider if you really want to come here on tour.
[15:19]So I didn't go there for the theater tour.
[15:22]I am going for the book tour, but I haven't told them yet.
[15:25]And he's like, when are you going to get a real job?
[15:26]Like loan officer.
[15:28]I want you to be a loan officer.
[15:29]And I'm like, what?
[15:31]That's all you think.
[15:32]I mean, it's fine to be a loan officer,
[15:34]but it's like, I such a distance of what he knows about me.
[15:37]So two siblings are really down.
[15:39]And then they're going to be a part of the San Francisco
[15:41]book talk and they're going to come up on stage.
[15:44]And they're both throwing me parties.
[15:45]And I also have a chocolate company with my sister.
[15:48]And she's making a collab chocolate with the book.
[15:51]So super supportive.
[15:52]And then my brother, some of that here.
[15:54]OK.
[15:54]Notice.
[15:55]And then, and my other brother and my dad just,
[15:58]we don't speak of it.
[15:59]And I think I've come to a place where I've just accepted that.
[16:03]Like I don't, I'm not expecting anything more.
[16:05]But I did give him a copy after I went to the printer.
[16:08]And, and that's where we're at.
[16:11]Well, I do feel, I know you said the book is really
[16:13]about your mom and coming to conclusions about her.
[16:17]And, you know, rediscovering her, honestly, in the story.
[16:19]But it also, I feel like, is a love letter to your dad.
[16:22]Because by the end of it, you come to a totally new place
[16:25]about your relationship.
[16:26]In the beginning, when we're reading about your relationship
[16:29]with him, as I know you felt about it at the time, you know?
[16:32]It's like, oh my gosh, this poor girl.
[16:35]Like, there is no love being thrown her way at all.
[16:39]Like, it is just, you know, some of the things.
[16:42]I'm like, I don't know how, people are reading her.
[16:44]Like, how do you think you would respond in that situation, right?
[16:47]To be going through grief and have your aunt's leave.
[16:50]And I'm sorry, I'm trying to go in and all of that.
[16:52]And then to come to an understanding about his background and his makeup
[16:57]and how, yeah, did he do the best he could?
[17:00]Is this what he knew?
[17:02]He obviously loves you, you know?
[17:04]Yeah, no.
[17:06]I think, so I think it's an 11-year-old.
[17:09]No one is explicitly talking about PTSD and being a boat person and what that
[17:14]brings to you and that he was orphaned by the time he was like, a tween.
[17:19]You know, like, we didn't talk about that.
[17:21]So I got zero context.
[17:24]And there's this really intense scene in my high school graduation party.
[17:27]I got into Harvard, people come and celebrate me.
[17:31]And then he says, after everyone leaves, they're all lying to your face.
[17:35]And like, part of me was like, how cruel of you?
[17:38]And part of me wondered if it was true, right?
[17:40]And I really messed up with my psyche about trusting people.
[17:44]But what kind of trust did he have in people, too, based on his life experience?
[17:50]So I think it's been my own journey to have compassion for my father.
[17:55]And Susan, the performer, was really grappling with a lot of the intergenerational trauma.
[18:00]And I would say, truly, when I had my son, March 2020, great timing, that that's when I started
[18:06]doing my inner child work around my father around, like, I love my son.
[18:11]I love my son.
[18:12]Perhaps my father loves me, too, because it's really, really hard for him to show.
[18:19]And there are moments and moments of hope, but it's still like with family,
[18:23]I always feel like there's a reset button every time we hang out again.
[18:27]We're just, it's so easy to go back to the past, right, of like where we were then.
[18:32]So, oh, yeah, you know, I'm sorry.
[18:38]I know, I would take this, I would be concerned if I hadn't read that in every show,
[18:42]you like cry the whole time.
[18:44]Yeah, so I'm prepared for the tears.
[18:47]Oh, I'm in touch with my emotions.
[18:49]Yeah, yeah.
[18:49]Yeah, tear machine.
[18:50]Tear machine.
[18:51]Do you want a tissue?
[18:52]Do you want me to do?
[18:53]Here, hold on, hold on.
[18:54]Okay, okay, we'll pause this for one second.
[18:56]Let's talk about the show itself a little bit.
[18:59]Yeah, 140 pounds, how beauty killed my mother.
[19:01]Yes.
[19:02]And it's gone through some iterations.
[19:04]And here we are.
[19:05]What's going on?
[19:06]So now you're touring with this particular version of the show.
[19:09]Just tell me the whole thing.
[19:10]Sure.
[19:11]So every time I wanted to learn something new about my mom and put it on stage,
[19:14]the fifth one was called the 140 pounds debuted at February 2019 in Seattle.
[19:19]Sold out run.
[19:20]It was also snow apocalypse.
[19:22]And it was like super snowing and crazy.
[19:23]I remember that.
[19:24]I had to put on crampons to walk down to my bus stop
[19:28]to even get to the theater.
[19:29]But somehow everyone else came those two weekends.
[19:33]And I play 15 characters in 65 minutes to tell the arc of the story of me,
[19:39]the last conversation I had with my mom, where I told her I hated her,
[19:43]the morning where she told me,
[19:45]I can't go to volleyball tryouts.
[19:47]And my discovery to know her and the family dynamics and a little bit about our
[19:50]family history.
[19:51]Mind you, I do not have an Evan Thay in theater.
[19:54]I have no training in theater.
[19:55]I have an MBA.
[19:57]And I only got an MBA because my dad was so upset with me that I
[20:00]I don't have a master's degree.
[20:01]And I was the only man who could qualify for, right?
[20:04]And so anyways, I put on this show.
[20:06]And after that, I was like,
[20:07]and then once I do it, I prove it, I'm not a coward,
[20:10]and then I can take out my IUD.
[20:11]Like, I am, I am, I can do this, right?
[20:14]Cause this is, cause performing,
[20:15]I had started in stand up comedy, and I loved it.
[20:18]And I was doing really well,
[20:19]and then I got heckled really bad.
[20:21]Like, so bad that that night,
[20:23]my siblings didn't mess with me.
[20:26]They just bought me a drink
[20:27]and didn't even talk about it.
[20:29]Like, it was really bad.
[20:30]And I left the stage for three years.
[20:33]And I said, this is a dumb hobby, who am I kidding?
[20:37]And it was coming back to saying,
[20:39]like, I want to step into my own shadow work
[20:42]and explore my demons and my anxiety around this
[20:44]because I can't become a mother
[20:47]and say, hey kid, do what you want in life,
[20:49]follow your dreams if I know I didn't.
[20:51]I know I'm so competitive and ambitious
[20:53]that I'd project onto them
[20:54]and make their child a little terrible
[20:56]being like, you didn't get like first care.
[20:58]You know, I just felt like now that we're middle class,
[21:01]like I would, I would expect things from them,
[21:04]from their enrichment programs.
[21:05]You know, I just knew I'd be that mom.
[21:07]And so I needed to check myself and take care of my stuff.
[21:10]And so that's why I started going on stage.
[21:13]And after the show was over, I was like,
[21:14]I guess I'm done,
[21:15]but that's when everything just began.
[21:19]Because then I look up,
[21:20]and I thought I was just dealing with my stuff.
[21:22]I look up and everyone's like crying and laughing with me,
[21:25]and they're telling me all these stories
[21:26]that are resonating for them
[21:28]around their own broken families,
[21:29]around their own body image issues,
[21:31]mental health unresolved grief.
[21:33]Like the list goes on, right?
[21:34]So you don't have to be a child of Vietnamese refugees
[21:38]to identify.
[21:39]You just need to just exist on this planet
[21:42]and have a broken heart.
[21:44]And so I said, okay, well, I guess that was great.
[21:47]I'm pulling out the IUD.
[21:49]I'm gonna have a baby now.
[21:51]Right when I find out I'm pregnant.
[21:52]I do the math and I realize,
[21:54]okay, well, if I wanna give this arts career thing a shot,
[21:57]the second trimester is when I'm gonna feel the best.
[22:00]Why don't I just put on intensity, national tour?
[22:02]I produce myself.
[22:04]Great idea.
[22:05]And I did.
[22:07]And that's where,
[22:07]because I wasn't sure after I had my kid,
[22:09]if I was gonna have postpartum anxiety,
[22:11]I just didn't know what the state of my life would be,
[22:13]was gonna be.
[22:14]And so I thought I just need to put all the momentum
[22:17]I can into this and then see what happens.
[22:19]And little did I know my lit agent was sitting
[22:23]in the New York premiere.
[22:25]Asked me if I wanted representation.
[22:27]We worked on the proposal all 2020.
[22:29]And then I got my book deal.
[22:31]Oh my gosh.
[22:31]So you didn't even write, you hadn't written it yet.
[22:33]No, no, I haven't written it.
[22:35]I mean, it's like, but at this point, the fifth show,
[22:38]I mean, I'd have five drafts for every show.
[22:41]And then I had my drafts for the book proposal
[22:43]and then eventually the memoir.
[22:45]So I say that that book you're holding is 38 drafts
[22:49]in the making.
[22:50]Oh my gosh.
[22:51]Well, it worked.
[22:53]Oh good, I'm glad.
[22:56]You know, I feel like the book is one of your ways
[23:01]that you tried to heal yourself, right?
[23:03]Soothe yourself, you started with this cultish,
[23:06]like yoga, breathing, spiritual person
[23:10]that you tried to make your whole thesis at Harvard
[23:13]and then like didn't know what to do about it.
[23:15]And we see you as you just try like in such a pure way
[23:19]to feel better and to feel like closure
[23:23]so you can move on and do your thing.
[23:26]When you look back at all the different steps,
[23:29]like what advice would you have to someone who's similarly,
[23:32]I mean, not like we can ever,
[23:34]it's not like it's conscious that you were doing this necessarily,
[23:36]but I don't know what things worked,
[23:39]what things don't work.
[23:40]What should we be careful about knowing that you fell
[23:44]into some people who slightly took advantage of you
[23:47]financially and all of that?
[23:48]Yeah, don't join a cult.
[23:49]I joined a cult in college just called Don yoga, everybody.
[23:52]They've rebranded since then because I wanted to feel belonging
[23:56]and that I couldn't have that with my family, right?
[23:59]Like I was a black sheep in my family
[24:01]and I just felt like every time I asked about my mom,
[24:03]they're like, you're being too emotional,
[24:04]you're stuck in the past and I believed them
[24:08]because they're my family and I'm the youngest of four,
[24:10]you know, you defer to your elders.
[24:12]So yeah, I was great candidate for a cult.
[24:15]I mean, I've done years of therapy.
[24:16]And I guess for me, art has been a pivotal way
[24:20]for me to shift all that energy.
[24:22]I mean, I do a lot of hippie other stuff too.
[24:25]You know, I do a lot of meditation, do all this stuff.
[24:27]And I think at the end of the day,
[24:29]you know, it's a pub day for me today.
[24:31]I've gotten a lot of solutions to start it.
[24:33]I'm sorry, you can graduate.
[24:35]Yeah, you're my first city.
[24:36]You're like my first like, congratulations on pub day.
[24:38]I should have started everything that day.
[24:40]Well, we're out of the womb and the first person
[24:42]I thought was you.
[24:43]Perfect.
[24:44]People put me first in a lot of people's tours
[24:46]because like, I'm very nice.
[24:48]And like, all I want is to help, you know,
[24:50]I'm not trying to like, you know, get people.
[24:53]But let's turn page 168 and unpack this thing.
[24:55]I mean, I'm just like, use the stage, you know.
[24:59]Yeah, I'm saying.
[25:00]Yeah, it's so exciting.
[25:03]You had this near death experience at the end.
[25:06]Wait, wait, wait, wait.
[25:07]Oh, I want to wrap up that last saw.
[25:09]Okay, go ahead.
[25:09]Which was about what really works in healing.
[25:12]And yes, it's also a therapy having a professional
[25:15]and all that.
[25:16]But on pub day, I have been blessed
[25:18]with so many kind messages from friends,
[25:21]text messages, Instagram messages, emails,
[25:24]all these things and they're just pure love.
[25:27]And I think what really works is remember to listen
[25:31]to the kindness, you know what I mean?
[25:34]Like, there's still awkwardness and pain
[25:38]and there's negative energy that still comes to me.
[25:40]And it's like, what do I want to accept as truth
[25:44]as what is going to dominate my day and my world, you know?
[25:48]And it's like remembering that there's still like kindness
[25:51]out there and that, and I can let that in
[25:55]and that can also be my truth.
[25:58]Instead of just remembering the last negative person
[26:00]and the last negative thing.
[26:02]So I think part of it is just consciously choosing
[26:05]and allowing that in instead of thinking like,
[26:07]I am alone, it all at this, right?
[26:11]And to look that there is this amazing community
[26:15]of kindness out there and let that in and receive that.
[26:20]This is our breaking.
[26:22]Why is it so hard for you?
[26:23]I don't know because I know it's so beautiful.
[26:27]I just know you've been through a lot of stuff
[26:29]and obviously you're processing it and moving on.
[26:34]I would not encourage anyone to do one of them to show.
[26:36]I would not encourage them to write it memoir.
[26:38]It's a lot of work.
[26:40]Just let the people who love you and welcome them
[26:44]as your tribe and don't think, oh, well,
[26:46]if, well, this person doesn't like me
[26:48]because of this or whatever.
[26:49]And it's like, maybe that's not yours to own anymore.
[26:52]Well, I don't even care.
[26:53]I was gonna ask you about your near death experience.
[26:55]But I'm like, oh, I was like, which one?
[26:57]I've been put the hike.
[26:59]Oh, the bird.
[27:00]Yeah.
[27:01]The bird chapter.
[27:01]That was one where my editor's like, I don't get it.
[27:04]I don't get it.
[27:05]What?
[27:06]Well, yeah, I didn't love that.
[27:08]Yeah, well, I had to rework that.
[27:10]Okay.
[27:11]And I gotta tell you, this is so ridiculous.
[27:13]I'm an extrovert.
[27:15]Writing is like kind of like an intro to exercise.
[27:17]And for months, I was going nowhere with the book.
[27:20]It was just going nowhere.
[27:22]And finally I said, you know what?
[27:23]I need a show.
[27:24]I need to put on a show.
[27:25]And so I did a four-day reading of my book
[27:29]of different excerpts.
[27:30]Also had my community watch me on Twitch.
[27:33]I rented out the theater again.
[27:35]And I did it.
[27:37]But at first I was like, oh, I'm just gonna,
[27:39]it's gonna be like Andy Kaufman
[27:40]and read the whole thing over four days.
[27:42]And then I was like, no, I'm gonna read the first chapter.
[27:45]So everyone's on the same page as me.
[27:46]And then I'm gonna work through some stuff
[27:48]that's really bothering me.
[27:49]And as a procrastinator, this was perfect.
[27:52]Because then I click all the way to the last night.
[27:54]I'm like reworking it.
[27:55]I read the bird out loud.
[27:57]And it was the act of reading it.
[27:59]Where also, and I was like, it was so clear
[28:01]how to edit it now.
[28:02]Like I loved everyone's comments,
[28:04]but I just right when it came out of my mouth,
[28:06]I saw it.
[28:07]I reworked it 48 hours.
[28:09]That's a chapter you see now.
[28:11]Because I had an audience, you know what?
[28:12]So I actually like co-wrote this with the community.
[28:15]Wow.
[28:16]But I'm glad you liked the bird chapter.
[28:17]I loved it.
[28:18]It's so intense.
[28:19]And here's the cute thing.
[28:20]I was just in this fancy grocery store with my son.
[28:23]And he saw this bird.
[28:25]He saw this tiny bird.
[28:26]And we had put it one when he was younger,
[28:27]but we lost it.
[28:29]He found it and he just gravitated it to it.
[28:31]And we just had spring picture day.
[28:33]And he was like, this is what I'm gonna hold.
[28:35]And it was like, I was sitting there
[28:36]and going like, ooh, in a few,
[28:38]like when you're older, you're gonna understand
[28:40]how significant the spring picture is to me.
[28:44]To him.
[28:45]Yeah.
[28:45]I mean, you know?
[28:46]It's like his grandma was watching.
[28:47]It's like, oh my gosh.
[28:50]Such a teaser.
[28:50]Like now your audience is like, what's this bird?
[28:53]And I think you're just gonna have to keep listening
[28:55]because that was really powerful.
[28:57]As it always, you just said,
[28:59]you would never recommend anybody write a memoir for real.
[29:02]Oh, I mean, it was really cool.
[29:05]I mean, I'm so proud of it.
[29:07]I'm so glad it's done.
[29:10]But in the middle of it, man,
[29:11]I was clawing on the floor.
[29:13]Structure was totally crazy.
[29:15]Even the act of just writing this stuff
[29:17]and revisiting these very traumatic memories
[29:19]was really intense.
[29:20]Like, yes, I've already performed the show 60 times
[29:23]to 7,000 people one year.
[29:25]Like, I have worked through that material.
[29:28]But doing something on stage
[29:29]where the scene changes are minute by minute.
[29:31]And this is like, oh, let me just tell you
[29:33]about the kitchen counter for pages.
[29:35]You know, like it's like to really go into every detail
[29:38]into that moment and like really be there
[29:42]is excruciatingly painful to even visit
[29:44]and then eventually being like, oh,
[29:46]but I gotta make it like witty and charming
[29:48]and like, and succinct and all this stuff.
[29:50]You know, it's like, that's like later on
[29:52]in the memoir process.
[29:53]I mean, I feel like everyone has a story to tell.
[29:56]If you wanna do it in 300 pages, go for it.
[29:59]If you also.
[30:00]Wanna go through the machine of publication?
[30:02]Fine, you know.
[30:03]If there's something that you want to write for you,
[30:06]do I think that there is power
[30:08]in writing the unspoken?
[30:09]Yes, do I say when we feel we heal?
[30:12]Absolutely.
[30:13]So if it's to write it for you, amazing.
[30:16]If it's to be in a bookstore one day,
[30:19]I'm just gonna warn you that it is excruciatingly painful
[30:24]and it is a process, I'm very proud of it.
[30:27]I feel like it's like something very special
[30:30]and tender, like it's a life milestone for me for sure,
[30:33]but it is very painful.
[30:35]Just like, you know,
[30:36]trigger warning, trigger warning.
[30:37]Yeah, lots of trigger warnings.
[30:39]Yeah, season, congratulations.
[30:42]Congratulations on your pub day.
[30:44]Congratulations on the manicure starter.
[30:46]Congratulations on all of the things you've lived through
[30:50]and how you've shared it with the rest of us
[30:52]so we can all send our love to you.
[30:55]And you can feel that in a way that you don't even know
[30:58]what's coming, you don't even know
[31:00]how much is coming your way.
[31:01]It's amazing, so congratulations.
[31:04]And I hope you continue to soak it up.
[31:07]Thank you very much.
[31:08]I will be a sponge.
[31:09]Congratulations on that.
[31:13]Thanks for listening to moms
[31:14]don't have time to read books.
[31:16]If you love it, please leave a review
[31:17]and follow us on social at City Owens
[31:20]and at City Readers.