Nick Shaw, MY TEACHER, MY SON: Lessons on Life, Loss, and Love
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake,
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[0:31]Nick Shaw is the author of My Teacher, My Son, Lessons on Life, Loss, and Love.
[0:36]With the 2023 release of his debut book, My Teacher, My Son, Nick invited readers to embark on an
[0:41]introspective journey through a compelling narrative about his experience losing his son William
[0:46]at just nine years old. Nick's book stretches the boundaries of the memoir form to teach and
[0:51]inspire its readers to help them live their lives with honesty and self-compassion through
[0:56]poignant anecdotes. Nick encourages readers to reevaluate their choices and embrace a
[1:00]more fulfilling and purposeful existence. Through much reflection and soul-searching,
[1:05]Nick has realized a need to help others find ways of living more intentional and meaningful lives.
[1:09]As an executive coach, Nick works with leaders to help them fully embrace the privilege
[1:14]of being a leader, to help them create environments where their team members can thrive.
[1:18]Nick is the co-founder of Myra Box Leadership Lab, an executive coaching and leadership
[1:23]development consulting firm. Utilizing an individual's real-life experience,
[1:27]Myra Box's goal is to help senior level leaders and executive teams bring about meaningful
[1:31]change and service of their personal and organizational growth. As of the publication of My Teacher,
[1:36]My Son, Nick lives in Carlisle, Massachusetts with his wife Susan, and his son's Kai,
[1:41]Eleven, and Bodie, three. His eldest son, William, is buried in green cemetery in Carlisle,
[1:47]a place where the family often spends time together and finds peace. Nick and his family enjoy
[1:52]spending time outdoors, hiking, biking, cross-country skiing, kayaking, and stand-up paddle
[1:57]boarding. Welcome, Nick. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to
[2:01]discuss My Teacher, My Son, lessons on life, loss, and love. Thank you super excited to be here,
[2:08]and yeah, share my story. Nick, you wrote so beautifully, both in prose and in poetry,
[2:14]about the loss of your son, William, and loved that you included pictures in there,
[2:20]love that we got to know him, and his, you know, all his flaws and issues, and
[2:27]joys and strengths, and like you really bring him to life for the reader, which is such a gift,
[2:34]getting his spirit out there, and all of that. I'm so beyond, beyond sorry for your loss,
[2:39]and everything your family has been through, and I met Susie actually she came to our new year new
[2:43]chapter. Anyway, okay, I'm so sorry, talk to talk to listeners, talk to me about the loss,
[2:50]the book, what you hope to get out of the book if you did all of it. Sure, okay, yeah, I guess
[2:57]just to give a bit of the background on where this all started, a little over five years ago now,
[3:04]we actually just came up on the five-year anniversary of William's death. We were skiing out
[3:09]in Big Sky, Montana, we were a family who liked to ski, and you know, we'll start out as a day
[3:16]like any other day, you know, ultimately ended in my son, William, dying in a freak and tragic ski
[3:21]accident. It was not, he was a good ski, or we weren't even skiing on anything challenging,
[3:26]we were actually making it right down the mountain on a, what's called a catwalk, and something
[3:31]caused him to veer off that catwalk, and you know, he, he hit a tree and died instantly on impact.
[3:38]I didn't see what happened. Actually, he disappeared, he would, you know, he was missing for a while
[3:43]and then they eventually found him and, and tried to treat him, but he was, it was, it was too late.
[3:48]And so as, as anyone who's a parent, well, can or can't imagine, I would say, it, it,
[3:52]through our lives and to, you know, everything was turned upside down, you know, it's not something
[3:57]you ever planned for, or ever expected. It's, it's literally your worst nightmare as a parent.
[4:02]And when we eventually made our way back home, all of us, my wife Susie, my younger son,
[4:07]Ty, and, and, and I, we've started our own unique processes of grief. And then for me,
[4:14]I think what happened was, it caused me to really look at myself because, you know, one of the things
[4:19]that happens when you lose a child is you are confronted with mortality like you have never been before.
[4:24]And so I did a lot of reflecting my own life and just, you know, was sort of consumed by the
[4:29]question, what can I learn from this? And as I meditated and reflected the lessons that started to
[4:36]come to me, I wanted to share them. And initially, those lessons and everything I was feeling and
[4:42]processing came out in, in, in a series of poems. And then eventually I expanded those poems into the
[4:48]book, my teacher, my son. Did it, I mean, did it help? Does anything help? Yeah, I mean, so,
[4:56]yes, it did help. I think first, well, it's a, it's a number of ways that helped. For me,
[5:02]sort of my way of grieving was less outwardly emotive. So I'm an introvert. And so for me,
[5:07]going inward and doing all of that reflection was my way of processing so that that absolutely
[5:13]helped. Second is it gave me a way to make meaning out of something that to me seems so random
[5:18]and senseless, right? You know, it was, it was really a freak accident. And so I had to give it
[5:24]something more. And so for me, that was sort of learning and then eventually writing the book.
[5:29]And then the third way it's helped is it's created a legacy for Liam. And as you said,
[5:34]you got to know William, right? He was a really special kid. He, you know, had his own struggles,
[5:40]you know, I talk about the book with anxiety. And he came up with this beautiful mantra,
[5:44]be yourself. And so I just want to get that into the world. Yeah. Have you found that the book has
[5:51]led you to lots of other people who have been a resource as well or not so much?
[5:56]When you say a resource, what do you mean? Like, has it found its audience among other people who
[6:00]then reach out and say, I've been through this and I want to help or let's connect or it's helped
[6:06]me so much? Yeah. Yeah. It definitely has. That's been amazing. You know, it was a first-time author,
[6:12]you know, not quite knowing how this thing unfolds. It's been amazing. That's been the best thing or
[6:18]the biggest gift out of this project is having people reach out to me and tell me how the books
[6:22]impact them because I wrote it because I wanted to have an impact. I wrote it because I wanted to
[6:27]people to, you know, think about their lives differently. If they're not living as meaningful and
[6:33]purposeful to lives as they would like to, my hope is that this book can help them. And so when I get
[6:38]to hear from people for whom it has that impact, it's awesome. And how has how has, and I know
[6:44]you write about this, but talk more about how it's changed your day-to-day life in terms of career
[6:50]and goals and all that other stuff in life. Yeah. I think for me, like, if there's one word that
[6:56]describes how it's changed me, it's being more intentional. You know, I think a lot of us
[7:02]get stuck on this cycle of being super focused on our careers and always in go mode and doing,
[7:08]doing, doing. And I think when that happens and we don't pause and reflect and take stock and be
[7:14]more intentional about the choices we make, you know, we can get into trouble. And so for me,
[7:18]I've really tried to be a lot more intentional about, you know, where I'm spending my time.
[7:23]You know, when I'm with my kids trying to be more present, yeah, just asking those important
[7:27]questions and making sure I'm making the right choices for me and for my family and for whoever
[7:30]I'm engaging with. And one thing that you do beautifully, I mean, you do a lot of things,
[7:35]especially, but one thing in particular is you really take us into the moments where it's happening,
[7:41]right? Instead of leaving it as sort of, oh, you can't imagine. You're like, no, no,
[7:46]you're going to imagine you're going to be right here in the room. You're going to be,
[7:50]you know, when we find out, you're going to be there when we have to tell, you know, you just
[7:54]take us in to the excruciating pain and shock. And we like live it with you. I mean, obviously not,
[8:02]but you know, as much as you can with another human throwback. And you know, it's similar,
[8:08]I don't know if you read Rob Delaney's, the heart that works, you know, he wrote about his son.
[8:13]And just in such a raw, he his is a little more angry. I feel like I don't know if I would
[8:19]to compare, you know, but just the raw emotion and not hiding and not protecting the reader
[8:25]per se from the pain. Tell me about that. And if it was an active choice or, you know,
[8:32]had you kind of avoided it in conversation, but you felt okay. And you know,
[8:36]were you just like, I don't want to talk about it anymore? Like here, like give it to you,
[8:39]read it. And then we can talk. Yeah, no, that's a great, I'm glad you brought that up because
[8:44]I was actually very intentional about that. And so in my, my day job, I'm an executive coach,
[8:49]I designed and deliver leadership development programs. And whenever I do that, I always designed
[8:56]to try to create an experience because we learn as adults a lot more from experience as opposed
[9:00]to just conception, you know, concepts. When I wrote this book, it was that in mind. For the
[9:06]lessons of the book to ring true, you have to be able to connect in some way with the experience.
[9:12]And that's why I really, I didn't sort of, I didn't pull any punches. So I wanted people to be
[9:17]as close to what it was like as possible through the book. So that way when they read the lessons,
[9:22]hopefully it'll be more impactful and resonate more. And I, and I've heard from people, it's been
[9:27]interesting. There's been two types of readers or people who have read the book and have said,
[9:33]wow, I picked up your book, couldn't put it down and didn't have to go back and read it.
[9:38]And then there's the readers to say, wow, I picked up your book. I had to put it down because I
[9:42]step away for a minute. Either way, it's fine. But that, that was the intention. I wanted to
[9:48]sort of bring people there. You also write a lot about your wife Susie and how it's impacted you
[9:54]and your parenting and your relationship and all the things that, you know, any sort of trauma.
[10:00]particularly, I'm sure this does to a family.
[10:04]And all of it, talk a little bit about that
[10:07]and what happens, or what happened to your marriage
[10:10]and how you go through something so painful together.
[10:13]I feel like I read some statistic at some point
[10:16]that the rate of divorce is higher among people
[10:19]who have lost a child, did you ever read that?
[10:22]I've read that and it was so in our mind the minute it happened.
[10:26]So yeah, I'll talk about a specific situation
[10:29]and then talk a little bit about how we actually made it through.
[10:34]We actually, she and I just gave a talk a couple weeks ago.
[10:37]We shared the lessons we learned as a couple on this,
[10:39]but how you can face adversity.
[10:42]So when William, as I mentioned before,
[10:44]there was a search and so that eventually
[10:46]brought him to a ski patrol clinic, and I was there.
[10:49]And Susie was in there because she had gone back to our cabin
[10:52]when he was missing thought thinking maybe he skied there.
[10:57]So I found that first that he died,
[10:59]and then I was waiting for her to get to the clinic.
[11:01]And I didn't want to tell her with the phone,
[11:02]so I just waited.
[11:04]And once you eventually got there,
[11:06]so before she got there, I was really scared to have to tell her.
[11:10]Because he was with me, I felt like it was my responsibility,
[11:13]so I let this happen, all the guilt.
[11:16]And I was thinking, what's this going to do our family?
[11:18]Because yeah, you hear the statistics,
[11:19]where you think about, you hear the story,
[11:21]or anecdotally, about couples getting divorced,
[11:25]and then creating further trauma for any surviving kids.
[11:28]And so that was just going through my head as I was waiting for her.
[11:31]And then she finally got there.
[11:32]And as I told her, and as you can imagine,
[11:36]she crumbled to the floor and was completely distraught.
[11:38]And so I ran over to her and tried to be with her and hold her.
[11:43]And then when she composed herself,
[11:44]she kind of put both her hands and my shoulders
[11:47]looking in the eye and said, it's not your fault.
[11:49]It's one of the most compassionate,
[11:52]selfless things anybody's ever done for me.
[11:54]Because she, in that moment, saved me
[11:56]and then saved our family, right?
[11:58]Because she set the tone for how we were going to do this together,
[12:02]because it was no require both of us to do it together.
[12:05]And so we, I'd say several weeks later,
[12:07]when we got home and we were trying to make sense of everything,
[12:10]we had sort of a look in the eye moment of like,
[12:12]we are not going to let this destroy our family.
[12:14]And so ever since that moment, it was all about,
[12:17]we got to survive this thing for, for William,
[12:19]for our younger son, Kai, and so that's what we did.
[12:23]Man, to switch gears and talk about this as a book.
[12:27]And you met an author, how did you approach that process
[12:31]and turning it into a book for sale?
[12:33]And in terms of publishing and all that,
[12:36]talk about that piece of the puzzle.
[12:37]Yeah, so I finished writing the book,
[12:40]I'd say it was probably June of 2022,
[12:42]or the first draft, let's say.
[12:44]And then I realized, I need some company
[12:46]to figure out how to edit this thing and do all that.
[12:48]So I hired, I just hired an editor just to kind of help me
[12:51]bring the book deeper.
[12:53]And then when I got it to a sort of a place
[12:55]where I felt like maybe I could shop it around
[12:58]or put it out there to kind of get people's perspective on it.
[13:01]I talked to a couple of different authors
[13:03]about how to do it.
[13:04]So publish versus self-publish.
[13:06]And I guess what I'd learn about
[13:08]the sort of publishing route is at least
[13:11]from a couple of the authors I spoke to,
[13:12]we'd actually done it both ways is that number one,
[13:15]it'll stretch, it'll lengthen the process, right?
[13:18]Because you'll have to shop it around
[13:20]and negotiate and do all that stuff.
[13:23]And then they'll want to get their eyes on it
[13:25]and offer their perspective on how it should be rewritten
[13:28]or things like that.
[13:30]And at that time, I was just ready to put it into the world.
[13:32]I didn't want to lengthen the process.
[13:34]And I also didn't want to relinquish control over the content
[13:37]because it's obviously two personal story.
[13:39]And so I decided to self-publish.
[13:41]And so then I found a publishing coach
[13:44]who kind of helped me figure out like the ins and outs
[13:46]of how you can deal with Amazon.
[13:49]I found a book designer who helped me design the cover
[13:52]as well as, you know, the interior of the book.
[13:54]And then eventually, yeah, put it into the world.
[13:57]And then I worked with the publicists
[13:59]to kind of help me get in front of different folks
[14:02]and do podcasts and things of that nature.
[14:04]And yeah, that's pretty much the process.
[14:06]So I ended up in one.
[14:07]Wow.
[14:08]So how long after you wrote it, were you able to sell it?
[14:12]This is gonna blow the minds of traditional authors here.
[14:16]So I finished, I guess the final version was done,
[14:19]August of 23.
[14:21]And it went live in November of 23.
[14:23]Oh my gosh.
[14:24]Yeah.
[14:25]Wow.
[14:26]I didn't even know there were,
[14:28]I mean, I should have guessed
[14:29]that there were self-publishing coaches for Amazon
[14:32]and all of that.
[14:33]Yeah.
[14:34]And then that myself, publishing coach also,
[14:36]she became chosen at my editor as well,
[14:38]my second editor.
[14:39]So she kind of did all of it, yeah.
[14:43]Would you do it again this way?
[14:45]It's a good question.
[14:45]I don't know.
[14:47]Yeah, maybe.
[14:48]I mean, it depends on the type of book.
[14:50]I mean, it was a good process.
[14:51]So I guess from a publishing route,
[14:54]if I were to go with the publisher,
[14:55]I'd have to understand what would be the value ads of speak.
[14:59]So did you choose an Amazon set?
[15:02]Like what company did the self-publishing?
[15:04]Was it through the Amazon Direct?
[15:06]It was the Amazon Direct and then it's also on
[15:08]a gram-spark,
[15:09]a gram-spark.
[15:10]Yeah.
[15:11]So you can get it both places.
[15:12]Yeah.
[15:13]It distributes to both.
[15:14]It does.
[15:15]So basically it's quite amazing.
[15:17]I'm like, teach me how this works.
[15:19]So my book designer helped me to create a file for the book.
[15:23]Then you just upload that to either site.
[15:26]And that's it.
[15:26]So you don't need to have inventory.
[15:28]You just put it out there.
[15:29]There is a free sale process on Amazon
[15:32]that I guess, you know, help you generate some demand
[15:35]for initial runs.
[15:37]And so you do a lot of promotion, things of that nature.
[15:39]But then right now, I don't really do anything.
[15:41]It's just, it's out there.
[15:42]And if someone wants to order a copy,
[15:44]it basically they can print on demand,
[15:46]which is quite amazing.
[15:47]I don't even know why I'm a publisher.
[15:49]This is a huge waste of time and resources.
[15:51]I should just get the author's book
[15:54]and put them up immediately.
[15:55]And I don't know.
[15:57]I don't know why I go through all this.
[15:58]I mean, I guess they have their elements
[16:02]that you think are less value add for you
[16:04]that you can outsource, why not, right?
[16:06]I mean, there's probably a lot you bring
[16:07]from a publishing perspective that add value.
[16:09]But you know, you focus on that.
[16:11]I would imagine so absolutely.
[16:13]And then you focus on those
[16:15]and less on the stuff that, you know,
[16:16]other places can do better.
[16:18]Now my mind is spinning.
[16:19]I mean, there's some hybrid model or something.
[16:21]I don't know.
[16:22]What's something that you wish you could tell William now?
[16:26]Well, I wish I could tell him, you know,
[16:27]that his name is who he was.
[16:29]His legacy is continuing on.
[16:31]It's helping people.
[16:33]So I wish I could tell him that I wish I tell him
[16:35]that we're doing, you know, in spite of everything
[16:38]pretty good as a family.
[16:40]You know, his brother Kai is now 11,
[16:43]which is an age he never got to.
[16:45]And then we decided to have another child
[16:48]after William died.
[16:49]So his little brother, Bodhi,
[16:51]who looks a lot like William, by the way,
[16:53]has sort of brought some balance back to our family.
[16:56]Yeah, and I wish I could tell him that he's missed.
[16:59]Yeah.
[17:00]Do you believe that souls never die,
[17:04]that they're around?
[17:05]Do you believe in all of that size and all of that?
[17:08]I do, I do.
[17:09]Yeah, it's funny.
[17:10]I wasn't spiritual before this.
[17:11]I absolutely am now.
[17:13]Yes, I think when we die,
[17:15]when we leave this life, our souls go back
[17:18]to sort of where they came from, which is, you know,
[17:20]I call to the universe.
[17:22]So I believe very much that he's out there
[17:24]and he's, yeah, looking down at us
[17:26]and I do try to connect with him, you know,
[17:28]when I'm at a tape and I will try to talk to him.
[17:30]And so yeah.
[17:31]That's great.
[17:32]I believe in all of that too.
[17:33]I have to take a loss and then you're like,
[17:36]oh, I get it.
[17:37]I get it.
[17:38]Well, yeah, I think that's right.
[17:39]I mean, and that's, it's unfortunate that sometimes
[17:42]it only comes to loss, but I guess that's a silver lining.
[17:45]I guess so.
[17:45]Well, Nick Bravo on taking something so personal
[17:51]and painful and putting it out there for everybody else.
[17:54]It's really just such an active generosity on your part.
[17:58]It's commendable in so many ways.
[18:00]And I'm just, it's heartbreaking what you went through.
[18:03]But I'm so glad you're all, you know, one foot forward.
[18:07]If that's, you know, not that you'll ever be the same
[18:10]nor should you be, but it's just such a gracious giving act
[18:13]for you to do this book.
[18:15]And I really hope that the people who need it
[18:17]and even those who don't pick it up and learn the lessons
[18:22]that you learn hard way.
[18:23]Yeah, thank you.
[18:24]And I hope so too.
[18:25]And hopefully it can change people lives for the better.
[18:29]I hope so too.
[18:29]All right.
[18:30]Well, thank you so much for coming on.
[18:31]Thank you, Debbie.
[18:34]Thanks for listening to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[18:37]If you love it, please leave a review.
[18:38]And follow us on social at City Owens and at City Readers.