Allison Winn Scotch, TAKE TWO, BIRDIE MAXWELL
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and I am the host of this podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:08]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of the novel, Blake.
[0:14]I've created a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company,
[0:19]reading retreats, a bookstore, and more. Learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social
[0:25]at Zivi Owens or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Allison Windscotch is back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to talk about, take two,
[0:36]a birdie maximum. She actually just did an event at Zivi's bookshop about her book,
[0:41]which was very well attended. I saw all about it, and you can watch that if you'd like
[0:46]on our YouTube channel for the bookstore, youtube.com at Ziviverse. Allison Windscotch is the
[0:51]New York Times best-selling author of nine novels, including Cleo McDougall regrets nothing
[0:56]in 20 years and time of my life. She lives in Los Angeles with her family and their two rescue
[1:01]dogs, Hugo and Mr. Peanut. Welcome, Allison. Thank you so much for coming back on Moms
[1:06]Don't Have Time to Read Books. Of course. This time, take two birdie max. Well, congratulations.
[1:11]I was thinking the last time we talked like I was huddled in a corner in my house like
[1:16]wearing clothing. It was a totally different ball game, but anyway, good to see you again.
[1:22]Thank you for having me back. You're a regular Zivi's bookshop. It's awesome.
[1:26]I am, actually. It's like right by me. I was just thinking while I was getting ready for this like
[1:33]if I wanted to retire, which I might want to do soon. I was like, I like open a bookstore,
[1:37]but actually there's already one in our neighborhood. So yeah, so I don't need to, but yes,
[1:42]we love that. It is super fun. Yeah, maybe just do it a little further away.
[1:50]I'm not doing it. I want to do next with my life.
[1:55]Anyway, you're welcome to work in the bookstore. Hang out.
[1:58]You know, I'm getting a sidebar, but my daughter is starting to look for a job. She's 17.
[2:03]And I was like, she should go apply for a job there. So yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, the plot for this book
[2:09]is amazing. Love this whole idea. Take listeners through what this book is about.
[2:15]Sure. So this is about America's sort of rom-com sweetheart who is canceled for reasons
[2:22]that probably aren't justified, but as tends to happen, doesn't really matter. So she slinks
[2:28]back to her hometown where she finds an anonymous love letter that an ex has sent her. And she
[2:35]decides sort of recreate her own rom-com to win back America's adoration and sets out to find
[2:41]out who wrote it. So that's it. And what was the spark of the idea? Where did this come from?
[2:48]If you knew. So this book went through many, many drafts. It just wasn't working. And then
[2:53]it finally did start working. But I realized like maybe a third of the way in and I think authors
[3:00]sort of have these like unconscious, like latent ideas. I actually got an anonymous love letter
[3:05]in college. I came home for the summer. And my mom handed me the mail because you got mail back
[3:10]there. Because we're that old choir, the US Postal Service. And there was like this
[3:17]flowery cursive written letter. And I remember the time feeling like it was really creepy,
[3:24]but I think that must have stuck with me. So when we were doing this, you know, overcoat,
[3:30]I sort of, I think a lot of people rediscovered just joyous like TV shows and movies because
[3:36]like that was all I wanted to watch. So this was sort of my approach for something that's just
[3:42]a joyful book, you know, hopefully readers at night can sort of unwind with it, which is what I do,
[3:47]which I know, you know, what you do with your reading and your work. So it's just sort of there to be
[3:53]joyful. So that was the impetus of it. It's great to produce entertainment, essentially.
[4:00]Right. You know, it's funny. Like, I mean, we can get deeper into this or not. But I do think,
[4:05]particularly earlier in my career, I felt like I had to write something really weighty.
[4:09]And as I've gotten older, or maybe just like my priorities have shifted, I have watched,
[4:15]like literally a sitcom, like a 30 minute sitcom every night since like 2015. It just,
[4:20]like it's my way to set aside whatever's happened in the day and just like immerse myself
[4:24]and something fun. And I think there is something really beautiful about writing something that
[4:29]brings some people happiness. It doesn't have to be like the Pulitzer and I'm not in any way,
[4:34]I think rom-coms and romance can be brilliantly written. But I just mean this genre is often
[4:41]disparage like why you never see them at the Oscars or whatever. And there is some real value
[4:47]and just bringing people joy. So that's what I am here for. Not to mention that a lot of people
[4:54]that is what they want to read, especially in darker times. People want to be entertained. They
[5:01]want to escape. Yeah. I mean, there is obviously a market for darker bleaker books,
[5:07]more power to those authors. I mean, obviously I'll read thrillers and historical fiction,
[5:10]but I just, I can't me personally have them be super heavy right now. It's just, I can't take it
[5:17]on. And I think a lot of people feel the same way. So let's write things that make people happy.
[5:23]I'm okay with dark memoirs because I know it has it. And that feels very inspiring to me.
[5:30]Yes, I agree. But dark for the sake of when you don't have to go there, I don't know.
[5:34]And again, like, there are obviously markets for that. It's just at this point in my life.
[5:39]My reading time is at night. So I'm in bed. And I just, in fact, my husband made me watch his
[5:45]documentary the other night about some murder. And I was so annoyed with him. I didn't want to
[5:51]watch it at night. I said, I only watch sitcoms at night. He's like, no, no, because he's like,
[5:54]super into true crime. And then like, we finished it. And I was like, I'm not going to sleep tonight.
[5:58]Like, this is not what I want to like have in my, you know, like arsenals. I'm like trying to drift
[6:04]off the sleep, which I can't even do have the time. So again, there is an audience for these
[6:08]darker books. More power to those authors who want to write them. But for me personally as a reader
[6:14]and a writer, I just, but I do agree on memoir. And I listened to them. And I find them really compelling
[6:19]because then it's like you're, you're rooting for that person who got out of it. Yeah, for sure.
[6:24]Have you always had trouble sleeping? I would say since like I had kids, which I think is pretty
[6:28]normal. Is that, are you in the same? I mean, when I'm really stressed, I wake up really early,
[6:33]but I can always fall asleep probably because I'm just so over time. You have so much going on.
[6:38]Yeah, I think, you know, and I remember talking to my doctor about this that like it often happens
[6:42]with women and when they have kids in their hormone shift or their anxiety goes up or whatever.
[6:47]So I am not a great sleeper, but I really love to sleep. And my husband last night,
[6:54]like in my dream world, I would, I'm like not paranormal. I'd go to bed at two. And I, if it
[6:58]were like socially acceptable, I'd wake up at like nine, 30 or 10. And just that would be my
[7:02]schedule. So I'm, you know, I'm asleep at like midnight. So it's fun. So you've had a whole career
[7:12]of writing. Yeah, right. You've managed to do this dream that so many people have where you've
[7:17]really kept this going. You've innovated, you've, you know, shifted with the times. I mean,
[7:25]you really, how do you do this? What is the secret? And I know you said, you know, you're feeling
[7:30]differently about what types of books, but yeah, just the process and the crap, like all of that.
[7:35]And how do you keep that going? So it's interesting. Certainly in this moment where I do think a
[7:40]lot of authors are very tired. We, and I'm not really asleep. I just think a lot of us are feeling
[7:45]a little fried. I have been very lucky to have almost a 20 year career writing novels, which just
[7:53]feels bananas. I think that, I mean, there are a couple things. One is I think that you really need
[7:59]to have the ability to step away from it when you can, even if it's in brief moments. I think
[8:04]one of the reasons that birdie was so hard for me to write is I had no turnaround time from filing
[8:09]my last book. And I am somebody who really just needs to just not do anything to sort of
[8:15]fill my creative well. So in the past, I've always granted myself that time. And, you know,
[8:21]I'm lucky I'm in a two-in-a-two-in-com household. I know that is not viable for everyone, but
[8:26]the only way that I feel like I'm capable of writing good books and sustaining this is by giving
[8:30]myself a break. Two, I think you just have to really develop a very thick skin. I have sort of
[8:38]changed up how, like, going on good reads. I know you just recently know about the parents there
[8:44]gives me such anxiety. Like, I have a physical reaction to it. And I'm not like an anxious person,
[8:50]but like for my last book, I was realizing that like I was having the same reaction as like
[8:54]when I would go on and check like election Twitter. You know, you can feel like a physical reaction.
[8:58]So for me, it has really been about having perspective over what this is sort of bringing into my
[9:06]sort of the success in the book, but also like, you know, I'm lucky I have like a wonderful relationship
[9:11]with my kids. Like, you know, we're going through the college process. Like, there are other things
[9:15]going on in my life that I try to take a step back and be like, okay, the end of the day,
[9:22]this is a career. It's a job and it feels very personal because it's public facing,
[9:27]but it is a career. It's just, I mean, I don't just mean to minimize it like it's a job job,
[9:33]but and it's a very fortunate job to have, but I don't know. I don't want to make my whole
[9:38]life about it. And so I think that has allowed me to have that longevity. Well, also, I mean,
[9:45]I will say this is my 10th book. I have two more contracted. I am pretty burned out. So, you know,
[9:51]that's opening a bookstore, which I'm not going to do, but maybe I'll go work. It's in these books.
[9:55]I think I would love that. So, it totally did. When you sold the other two.
[10:00]Was it just like and concept or like how much do you know about what I did?
[10:04]I signed another two-book deal with Berkeley. We haven't actually announced it yet,
[10:06]but I think I'm gonna be doing it soon. They were debating if I want to finish it before we
[10:13]announced it. It's like two-thirds the way done. And in fact, it's called the Insomniac since
[10:17]well. That would be totally perfect. Yeah, I was literally like trying to cover the idea
[10:22]and like in the middle of the night. I'm like, well, I'm not writing about this like half the
[10:25]way in my aid. You cannot sleep. So, you know, I feel like and I mean, you speak to a lot
[10:31]of authors. I wonder if other people feel this way. Like every time I file a book, I'm like, I'm
[10:35]done. I don't have another idea. Like nothing is ever gonna come to me. I'm just whatever. And then
[10:41]eventually something, I take that time for myself and I go live that life that is so important to me
[10:46]and I hang out with my kids, right? I argue with my kids or whatever you're doing. And something
[10:52]eventually sort of sparks like that need to write, which you know, I think you're in the same boat
[10:56]and I'm sure that a lot of other authors who you speak with are. So, if we did set, we sold it on
[11:02]concepts and it's about, I don't know, 70% written and having taken like six months off, not off,
[11:11]but like between actually writing books. I mean, I'm doing other things in between. I did feel
[11:16]like ready to return and actually write properly, like in the way that I know how. So,
[11:21]it sounds to me like you know yourself really well. Like I need to do this at night to calm down.
[11:27]I need this. I've thought about this. Like you very self aware. Thank you very much for that
[11:33]compliment. That is like a really nice compliment. I do think I know myself well. I definitely
[11:38]like learned some things during COVID. Like I, everybody's always been out of the house usually.
[11:44]And I had a difficult time. Like I realized we've all sort of done these surveys. Like I am
[11:50]extroverted introvert and I'd always consider myself an extrovert, but like I need my downtime. I
[11:55]need that sick comment night. Don't make me watch your stupid like documentary about like murders.
[12:01]So, I mean, whatever. People love them. It's just not for me. So, I mean, look, I'm 50. Like I would hope
[12:08]that at a certain point, you do sort of have to do that like self reflective work where, you know,
[12:13]you start to, and I don't mean this in any like morbid way at all. But like look at the back half
[12:19]of your life and my sons in college and my daughter's applying. And like, I don't know. Like I,
[12:24]I want to live a happy life. So that is sort of whether it's with signing book deals or not signing
[12:32]book deals or whatever it is. I just want to make sure that I'm content with it. And, you know,
[12:38]I listen as a lot of people do this smart lesson. I've heard them say several times like if you would
[12:44]say no to something tomorrow, don't say yes to it in three weeks because then it's going to come
[12:48]up and like you're going to be like, oh my God, I see yes. And I feel like I'm trying to employ that
[12:53]not like literally, but just in general. Like what am I doing? Why am I saying yes to things I don't
[13:00]want to do? And I know that you've, you know, written about that as well, feeling overwhelmed and
[13:05]putting up those boundaries. Sorry if you hear my dog snoring in the back. Oh, no, it's okay. My dog is
[13:11]I know. I love your podcast. That's a catch. They have, they have, they're living the life,
[13:18]not in some way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In some years with the dog who only sleeps. No, I mean,
[13:23]look, we all try to fit everything in. I feel like I just am so tired. I don't want to do anything
[13:29]after a certain time of day. That's why like I'm starting having events at like 8 a.m. You know,
[13:33]like, you know, we had the Divi Awards at the store at 11 a.m. Like when I first launched it,
[13:39]they were at like 8 in Brooklyn, you know? Because I still want to be asleep by that. But like
[13:44]last night, my daughter had left something to the last minute. And she, whatever, like their school,
[13:49]like a state basketball game, she came home at like nine and came into her room where I was in bed
[13:54]trying to watch my sitcom. And she's like, okay, I need your help with this. And I was like,
[13:58]obviously, I helped her. I'm so irritated because that is my time. I'm like, this is my real
[14:05]decision time. You know, so I do try to put up those boundaries both with my family and with
[14:11]my work, but it's not always successful now. So, you know, I mean, you have more kids than I do. So
[14:18]and I only have one at home now. So that's it's easier. When you were writing this book,
[14:25]did you worry about any ex-boyfriends reading it or wondering if they were mentioned or did you
[14:32]send it to them? Are you in touch with them? You know, I didn't worry about the reading it
[14:36]because it's not related to them at all. I am friendly with a lot of them in terms of like,
[14:42]I'm not somebody who carries her own grudges. Like, I just think it's so toxic to like,
[14:48]it dreams you more than it needs to. So to answer your question, I'm not worried. I highly doubt
[14:53]any of them read my work anyway. I mean, at this point, like 10 bucks in, it's a miracle like if my
[14:59]family read them. I mean, you know what I mean, like I, whatever. Given that none of them, I assume
[15:05]did write me that and on with Love Letter in college, I don't think that any of them could
[15:11]in it. I mean, you know, you're always taking sort of past feelings and putting them into your work,
[15:17]but I'm not somebody who is going to replicate an experience really on the page, particularly
[15:23]10 bucks. And I would hope that I've sort of got like, I don't have that many anecdotes romantic
[15:29]calamities at this point. But yeah, so I do think back fondly to most of them, not all of them,
[15:35]but I will say I love whether it's movie TV book. I do love a second chance or I'm gone.
[15:41]I'm a very nostalgic person, which is maybe why I'm generous to some of my exes, like,
[15:46]you know, whatever, you aren't great, but that doesn't mean you're a terrible person. Although
[15:50]sometimes it does. So I do have one or two. I think are terrible. So yeah, but I don't really
[15:57]write about that. And what about going back to your hometown? Are you from LA? No, I'm not from LA.
[16:02]I'm actually from Seattle where I have, it's not in this book, but I've included that in a few
[16:08]settings in the books. So it's funny, like I used to live in New York and all my books were
[16:14]sit there and then more of them have been set here since moving to LA. So my parents no longer
[16:19]live in Seattle. So I don't really have a reason to visit. So I would go up and do some book events
[16:24]now, but like sort of post COVID, people aren't doing as money and that's totally fine by me.
[16:30]So my high school friends are still there and I actually have some college friends there.
[16:33]So it was a great place to grow up in terms of being canceled, like, birdie. Is there anything
[16:40]that you feel like maybe you should have gotten canceled for, but you got it way with?
[16:44]Oh my God. No, you know, I try to be extremely meticulous online. Not just because like,
[16:52]I mean, I don't think I really share any controversial views, although, you know, we've seen
[16:56]recently, I know you've experienced with the anti-Semitism. Every time I think about posting something
[17:01]that might in any way be sort of misconstrued, I play out all the different iterations of like
[17:08]what the responses are going to be. And if my stress level is worth taking that on. So,
[17:14]and a lot of times the answer is just no. Like, I feel very stridently about a lot of things,
[17:18]but I don't want to deal with the incoming. And so I'm very outspoken on Instagram about politics,
[17:26]about reproductive health, about voting. And I do feel like if somebody wants to cancel me for
[17:31]something that for me is so clearly sort of black and white, I mean, I don't even know how you
[17:38]could be canceled for that because I really think it's the right thing to do. But, you know,
[17:43]I do see, and I'm sure you experienced this as well. The thing that upsets me online is,
[17:49]I mean, sort of the politics of it, not standing like authors being shitty to other authors
[17:55]dragging somebody else's work publicly. Like, yeah, I mean, you read a ton. I read a ton. I would never
[18:02]publicly disparage somebody. And I just, that's sort of what I'm like, that is like a systemic
[18:09]problem with you. And that's when I'm like, oh, it takes a lot for me to unfollow someone or, you know,
[18:16]to sort of end something. That is when I'll do it. And I really try not to post anything negative
[18:21]other than like, look, I hate Trump. So like, I might post something about that. But that's sort of
[18:29]my line. I feel like you must see that all the time. Like in your comment, like people just
[18:35]like keep it to yourself. Yeah, I can't believe when I see authors or people tagging authors
[18:41]and saying things badly about their books or yeah, people, I mean, it's like the country is so
[18:47]divided right now. It's like horrific. And right, it somehow has been sanctioned to be mean. And
[18:55]I do not agree with that. That's exactly right. That's what it is. I feel like I'm not a mean person.
[19:01]I mean, I have very strong opinions about things, but I am not mean. And like, I find mean people
[19:08]like so like not even obviously snark is one thing, but I feel like snark has been
[19:13]like people now no longer differentiate between what is snarky and what is mean. And I realized
[19:19]it's very early on on Twitter where sort of in the early days, like we would all just post like
[19:25]snarky things about celebrities. And then it occurred to me, this was again like very early days
[19:30]where we were sort of naive about it. But like something might be saying it. And it would be
[19:35]hurting their feelings because famous people have feelings too. And I think that people also don't
[19:40]realize that authors might see some of the like really mean things they say about them. So
[19:46]I realized that on Twitter and I was like, okay, I'm out. Like I don't I don't care if somebody's
[19:52]freaking, you know, famous. There's no need for me to say something mean that it's going to hurt
[19:56]their feelings. And so, I don't know, it bothers me out sometimes to see.
[20:00]people I know just saying audaciously rude things
[20:03]to other people.
[20:03]And it's not like about, you know, a policy.
[20:06]It's about a person and I just don't understand it.
[20:10]I just don't.
[20:10]So, and I, you know, I know that you have been,
[20:13]people have said that it publicly rude things to you
[20:16]and on good reason, whatever.
[20:18]I mean, same with me.
[20:19]And I just don't understand that.
[20:21]Like I just feel like it's reflection of that person
[20:23]and it really doesn't have anything to do with me.
[20:25]It's true.
[20:26]Let's, let's believe that.
[20:27]Unless you and I are both careful.
[20:29]Like, well, the reason I believe that is because
[20:33]if somebody feels comfortable being that rude online
[20:36]and they know that people are going to read
[20:38]whatever they're saying, yeah.
[20:40]Like they do it for like the like serotonin boost
[20:44]or whatever, is that like somebody's going to like their snark.
[20:47]Yep.
[20:48]That is very sad to me.
[20:50]I think people are desperate for a sense of control right now.
[20:54]I think people feel like the world is just spiraling,
[20:57]which is, I mean, and if you really let yourself go there,
[21:01]you just won't get out of bed in the morning.
[21:02]So I don't know.
[21:03]I think some people get pleasure from hurting other people
[21:06]and that's just sick and terrible.
[21:08]And I think other people have been swayed by thinking it's okay.
[21:11]And so they join in, you know, piling on to the rudeness
[21:15]and the hatred and death threats or whatever it is,
[21:19]which is not okay, obviously.
[21:21]Right.
[21:22]But yeah, it's unacceptable.
[21:25]So yeah.
[21:26]That's right. Exactly.
[21:27]So to answer your question, I have never been canceled.
[21:30]Thank goodness.
[21:31]But I am also extremely like if they sat in my living room
[21:35]and heard my husband and me talking, maybe I would.
[21:39]And I don't mean like because I'm saying controversial things,
[21:42]but I'm sure other people would.
[21:43]But like it's okay to have feelings in the privacy of your own home
[21:47]or with your friends or your group chats or whatever,
[21:50]but you do not need to put them on blast.
[21:52]And I feel like that has gotten lost
[21:55]in the pervasiveness of social media.
[21:57]Like, but I think our generation gets that.
[22:01]Like loud and proud gen XR, but I don't know.
[22:04]Yeah.
[22:05]It's, you know, nine out of like 10 out of 10 times,
[22:08]I will love the posts that like are sharing cute dogs
[22:11]and some like joyful things.
[22:14]And I'm not going to like the negative ones.
[22:16]You know.
[22:17]So.
[22:18]Okay, last question, what advice do you have
[22:21]for aspiring authors?
[22:23]Oh, my gosh, probably the same advice
[22:25]that I had back when we first talked.
[22:28]I mean, you have to change it this time.
[22:30]So you can't do that.
[22:34]That's a hack I will not accept.
[22:36]Yeah.
[22:37]Okay. So I think, I mean,
[22:39]and this does sort of circle back to a lot of the,
[22:42]I think the reason that I've had longevity is,
[22:45]I think it is really important to not have an ego in this
[22:48]industry. Like if your ego is bigger than your desire
[22:52]to be a great writer,
[22:54]you are going to run into roadblocks all the time.
[22:56]Like your editor is going to,
[22:57]so a good example is pretty Maxwell.
[22:59]I rewrote this book from scratch,
[23:03]like starting at zero five times.
[23:05]Like I had to throw out five different drafts.
[23:07]Oh my gosh.
[23:08]And if I had resisted, the final book wouldn't have worked.
[23:13]And it was really, really hard to do that every time.
[23:17]But, and by the way, again, as I said,
[23:19]this is my 10 book.
[23:20]So like, ostensibly I should know how to get it right.
[23:24]But you just don't, you start over every time.
[23:27]I mean, I do have like a somewhat clear sense
[23:29]of how to write a good book now.
[23:30]But you know, whether it's getting constructive criticism
[23:34]from your editor, from your readers,
[23:36]from just not being defensive one,
[23:39]like your editor is like, cut this.
[23:40]It's exposition.
[23:42]And you're like, but I really like this sentence.
[23:44]Guess what? It doesn't matter.
[23:45]So I just think if you resist
[23:48]when people are trying to help you,
[23:50]it's gonna be a very short-lived career.
[23:52]I think that's great advice.
[23:53]And I've, by the way, never gotten that from any author yet.
[23:56]Oh, really?
[23:57]Really?
[23:58]And that's really, really good advice.
[24:00]Oh, then it's so interesting to me
[24:01]because it's just like, I just feel like it is the umbrella
[24:04]under which everything else falls.
[24:06]Like if you're right.
[24:08]If you isolate yourself because you believe that like
[24:10]your draft or your idea or whatever is the right,
[24:13]absolutely the right thing.
[24:14]And other people are telling you it's not.
[24:16]You're not gonna be correct.
[24:17]I mean, not in every situation.
[24:20]I should say like, you know,
[24:21]there are things where I have argued with my editor,
[24:23]but generally speaking, I just think that's what, you know.
[24:28]Yeah, no, being collaborative with your whole publishing team.
[24:30]And right, you know, then when you have something
[24:33]you feel strongly about, the listen, you know?
[24:36]That's it, that's exactly right.
[24:37]That's like, if they know that this cover
[24:39]is gonna be more market won't, okay.
[24:41]That's not my whole expertise.
[24:42]Yeah. Like go with God.
[24:44]But, you know, if there's something
[24:46]that I really feel strongly about,
[24:48]then that is the time that I will wield
[24:51]that argument power, whatever it is.
[24:53]All right, well, thank you so much for coming
[24:55]back on mom's dinner time to read books.
[24:57]Oh my gosh, I'm hoping to see you in LA
[24:59]in a few weeks.
[25:00]Yes.
[25:01]Yes.
[25:02]And so, you know, you're out here all the time.
[25:06]So thank you so much for having me
[25:07]and good luck with your own release.
[25:09]Good luck with your time.
[25:10]Good luck with your time.
[25:12]See you on the other side.
[25:14]See you on the other side, give me a seat.
[25:16]Bye, bye, bye, bye.
[25:20]Thanks for listening to mom's
[25:21]Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[25:22]If you love it, please leave a review
[25:24]and follow us on social at city Owens
[25:27]and at city readers.