Tana French, THE HUNTER
[0:02]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and I am the host of this podcast, Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:07]I am also a newly minted USA Today best-selling author of The Novel, Blake, and created
[0:14]a whole community of book lovers around this podcast, a publishing company, reading retreats,
[0:20]a bookstore, and more, learn more at ZiviMedia.com or follow me on social at Zivi Owens
[0:26]or join the community at ZiviReaders.
[0:31]Tana French is the author of The Hunter, A Novel.
[0:34]Tana is the New York Times best-selling author of eight previous books, including In The
[0:38]Woods, The likeness, and the searcher.
[0:39]Her novels have sold over 3 million copies and won numerous awards, including the Edgar Anthony,
[0:44]McCavity, and Barry Awards, The Los Angeles Book Prize for Best Mystery Thriller, and the
[0:49]Irish Book Award for Crime Fiction.
[0:51]She lives in Dublin with her family.
[0:53]Welcome, Tana.
[0:54]Thanks so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss your latest
[0:57]novel, The Hunter.
[0:58]Congratulations.
[0:59]Thank you.
[1:00]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:01]My pleasure.
[1:02]For those of you who are just listening, you will not know that the cover of Tana's book
[1:06]is basically the same exact color as her hair, which is impressive.
[1:09]They are both a beautiful, sort of orangey red, glimmery confection.
[1:15]I don't know.
[1:16]Okay, so Tana, I tell everybody what is The Hunter about?
[1:21]Well, it is about a small village in the west of Ireland during the summer that's having
[1:25]a heat wave, which we do not happen off a lot, and two men come to the Tana land.
[1:30]One of them is coming home, he's a guy kind of narrative, well, what a way a few years
[1:36]ago and is now back, and both of them are coming to get rich, or so they think, and one
[1:41]of them is going to die that summer.
[1:43]And meanwhile, there's a guy called Cal, he's a retired Chicago detective, he's built
[1:47]himself, a new life there with a girlfriend, there are two of them are raising a local teenager
[1:54]from kind of a half-fural kid into a good kid going to the places.
[1:57]But this is the teenager, Tray's father, who has come back, and all their relationship
[2:03]starts to get a little bit disrupted, and their delicate balance is under threat.
[2:07]And Cal and Lena, his girlfriend, are both ready to do whatever it takes to protect Tray,
[2:12]but she does not want protecting.
[2:13]She wants revenge.
[2:15]Uh-oh.
[2:17]And where did this idea come from?
[2:19]Where did the idea for the book, originally?
[2:21]Well, my last one, the searcher, was kind of a linked book.
[2:24]It's got a lot of the same characters that set in the same place.
[2:27]And where the whole world of this little Irish village came from was, I had suddenly
[2:32]discovered the Western genre, with lonesome dove and true grit, and the sisters brothers
[2:37]and all these great books, which I'd never discovered before.
[2:40]And I realized that a lot of the Western tropes are actually a really good match for Irish
[2:44]settings, because you've got kind of in books, genres.
[2:48]You've got that sense of a wild, harsh, beautiful place that's going to demand a lot of
[2:53]toughness from the people who want to live there.
[2:56]And you've also got that sense of a place that's really distant from the center to power,
[3:00]both geographically, but also culturally.
[3:02]So the people who live there feel like the powermongers don't know or care about their
[3:07]lives.
[3:08]And if they want a function in society, they're going to have to construct their own rules
[3:12]and enforce them.
[3:14]And I started thinking of bringing some of those Western tropes to a Western West of Ireland
[3:18]setting.
[3:19]So in the search I was working with, you know, the stranger who blows into town and
[3:23]things sort of change around him, whether he likes it or not, he's a catalyst for change.
[3:29]And Cal, the guy who's taken early retirement from Chicago PD and come there looking for some
[3:34]kind of peace and moral certainty, he's that guy.
[3:37]But in this one I was thinking about other tropes.
[3:39]I was thinking about, you know, the gold rush, there's gold in them, there are hills.
[3:45]And I was thinking about actually it surprisingly well in Ireland, because we do have,
[3:51]as one of the characters says in the book, an awful lot of ancient gold artifacts,
[3:55]clearly there were people digging up and sniffing gold thousands of years ago.
[4:00]And they have been teeny mini gold rushes up to the centuries in quite recently.
[4:04]So that wouldn't do badly.
[4:06]What if trace absent father comes home?
[4:09]And he's brought along a British millionaire and a scheme to find gold in the timeline.
[4:14]And of course, I was also thinking about the revenge trope that shows up in Westerns
[4:19]of art and what if tray rather than wanting gold once revenge, how would those two intertwine?
[4:24]Wow.
[4:25]So how much research did you have to do with the gold, the gold rush and the influence
[4:30]in Ireland and all of it?
[4:32]That's a lot of fun actually, because I hadn't really thought very much about it.
[4:36]I've been to the National Museum where there are all these incredible ancient gold artifacts.
[4:41]You know, those torques, those colors beautifully worked and earrings and brochos and just
[4:46]amazing stuff.
[4:48]But I hadn't really thought about them about light until I started researching this book.
[4:52]And went, okay, is there any science since?
[4:55]And yes, there is.
[4:56]There was like a little mini gold rush and with glow in the 1840s within the last couple
[5:00]of decades, when people are applying for licenses to dig for gold in the mountains.
[5:05]That's going...
[5:06]So I had no idea, we're all sitting on top of gold mines for all we know.
[5:11]Wow.
[5:12]When you started getting back into, when you started getting into Westerns, was it just
[5:16]reading?
[5:17]Was it TV?
[5:18]How immersed did you get in this whole world?
[5:21]It was mostly reading, because that's where I naturally gravitate.
[5:25]I love books.
[5:26]That's where I'm going to go.
[5:28]But also, a few films, like a few of the older films, my husband, who is very into old
[5:33]movies, Westerns, he was the old point in me in the right direction, but yes, it is.
[5:36]You have to see this.
[5:37]Just to pick up on what are those tropes that I wanted to use, which ones are useful.
[5:42]But mostly it was stuff like the whole Lonesome Dove Quartet, which I think is one of
[5:46]the absolute greats, not just a Western, but of American literature, Lonesome Dove is.
[5:52]I also dipped into more modern stuff, like the sister's brothers, again, which is quite
[5:57]modern, but it is in that sense of Western.
[5:59]It's got that Western theme of a search, of people going, looking for somebody and finding
[6:05]other stuff along the way and realizing that this is actually more core to their journey
[6:10]than wherever the guy is that they were actually looking for.
[6:13]There's some wonderful stuff out there.
[6:15]Wow.
[6:16]And tell me how you got your start originally.
[6:19]Like when did you know, like going back, you were going to be a writer?
[6:23]Well, when I was a little kid, that was what I wanted to be.
[6:26]But I sort of got sidetracked as a teenager and ended up doing acting, training as an
[6:30]actor and acting for like 10 years.
[6:33]And the thing about acting is I was mostly theater, unless you're like, you know, Judy
[6:37]Dench, which I never was, your gigs aren't going to line up neatly.
[6:41]There's always space in between.
[6:42]And in one of those spaces, I was working on an archaeological dig, which I loved.
[6:47]And there was a wood in that front from the dig.
[6:50]And I went, God, that would be a great place for kids to play.
[6:53]And then instead of stopping there, I went, well, what if three kids ran in there and only
[6:58]one came out and he had no memory of what had happened to the other two?
[7:02]But what would that do your mind as you grew up knowing that the answer to this mystery
[7:06]is hidden somewhere inside your head, but you can't put your finger on it.
[7:11]And what if he became a detective and a murder case led him back to that wood?
[7:15]And I sort of, I didn't really think about writing it because I'd never tried to write
[7:20]a book before.
[7:21]I just scribbled the idea down on a piece of paper and went off to do the next show and
[7:24]forgot about it.
[7:25]But then I found the piece of paper like a year later and realized, I really want to know
[7:30]what happens with that story.
[7:32]And nobody else was going to write it for me.
[7:34]There was only one way to find out.
[7:36]So I sort of started going, you know, I probably can't write a book, but I can write
[7:39]one scene and then another scene and then a chapter and suddenly there I was realizing
[7:46]that I was really serious about finishing this book and finding out.
[7:49]Oh my gosh.
[7:51]That's amazing.
[7:52]And then what was your journey to publication like?
[7:54]Did you find that to be an easy transition?
[7:56]I mean, it's not always easy to say, okay, I'm going to pretend the acting gig and now
[8:00]I'm going to enter the new industry.
[8:02]Well, that was a really weird feeling actually because if you know any actors, you know
[8:06]that except for like the absolute top echelons, they don't turn down work, they always
[8:12]want more work.
[8:14]And that was the moment when I realized that I had just said no to a really good show
[8:19]because I wanted to finish this book.
[8:21]That was the moment where I went, oh my god, I think I'm really serious about this.
[8:25]I think I've got myself into something that sucked me in.
[8:29]I was lucky because I happened to know somebody who was in publishing and I was publishing
[8:33]housing.
[8:34]Wonderful woman, wonderful editor.
[8:35]And I sent her the first few chapters and went, okay, tell me straight up, is this something
[8:41]that I should be finishing or is this something I should be throwing under the bed and never
[8:45]speaking up again?
[8:46]Just tell me that.
[8:48]And she went, no, no, no, finish it and gradually it went from there step by step.
[8:52]So I got lucky, I think it happened to land on the right desks at the right moments.
[8:57]I was very lucky, there are a lot of really good writers out there for whom it takes
[9:01]a long time for that to happen.
[9:03]And then how about coming up with subsequent ideas?
[9:06]Were they as gripping as your first one or have you been forever searching for something
[9:11]quite as intoxicating?
[9:13]Well, I think one of the things that makes people into mystery writers is that at some
[9:18]level you're always looking for a potential mystery in even the most mundane things.
[9:23]You know, it's a wood, rural people stop out, hey, that would be a great place for kids
[9:27]to play.
[9:28]But if you've got a mystery writer ahead, you're saying, how could that be mysterious?
[9:33]What could underlie it?
[9:34]That would be a mystery.
[9:35]And so most of the ideas from my other books have come from things that are equally sort
[9:40]of everyday stuff, like for faithful place, it was, I was walking home and there was an
[9:45]old blue suitcase in a skip, I don't know what you call it a dumpster, I don't like the
[9:49]house that was being cleared at, you know, it was great big bins.
[9:51]And there was an old blue suitcase and I sort of wonder how long that's been there, I
[9:55]wonder who loves it there, I wonder if they were going somewhere, maybe they never made
[9:58]it there.
[9:59]And suddenly you've got to go.
[10:00]And, you know, Broken Harbor was because we had mice
[10:02]and that's not what we were living.
[10:04]It's little stuff and trying to find mysteries all the time.
[10:08]So funny, because I don't come from a mystery
[10:09]writer, brain it all.
[10:10]So when I see what, I'm just like, oh my gosh,
[10:12]I hope there's not like some terrible animal
[10:14]that's going to come get me.
[10:15]I better stay away from there.
[10:17]And I like turn and run.
[10:18]So I'd like to to worry to even make any stories up
[10:23]to scare myself.
[10:24]Thank you for away from them.
[10:25]Somebody else can go deal with the animals.
[10:28]Yeah, exactly.
[10:28]Yeah, you know, that's amazing.
[10:31]So when you piece together your book,
[10:34]seen by scene chapter by chapter,
[10:36]is that still the way you do it is how you started
[10:38]in the beginning where you take little pieces of it
[10:41]or now do you plot out everything and sort of,
[10:44]you know, put things in as they, as you see fit.
[10:46]Like what is your process?
[10:48]No, it's still basically the same as it was back then.
[10:52]I start out with a really clear idea of the main character.
[10:56]I think it might be because of coming from an acting background.
[10:59]I need to be very clear who the character is
[11:02]that I'm working from their perspective.
[11:04]I start with a clear idea of the main setting
[11:06]and with a really basic kind of like that with the woods.
[11:10]And then I just sort of dive in and figure it out as I go.
[11:14]It is a bit scary because like I know writers
[11:18]who have it all plotted out.
[11:19]They know chapter by chapter beat by beat.
[11:21]And for them, they know there's a book there.
[11:23]They know all the loose ends are going to tie up
[11:25]all the threads are going to make sense.
[11:27]And I don't know that.
[11:28]And I'm always aware that I could dive in there someday
[11:31]and like, you know, they could a little hitting my head
[11:33]on the bottom going, oh, there's no book there.
[11:37]What do I do now?
[11:39]But I think I have to do it the same way I did
[11:41]where I'm writing because I really want to find out
[11:44]what happens.
[11:45]And do you ever miss acting?
[11:46]Yeah, you little bits here and there.
[11:49]But I do miss it.
[11:50]I mean, writing is very solitary.
[11:53]It's a big change after acting.
[11:55]And it's also, I'm not sure what the word is.
[11:59]I'm looking for, but it's very solitary professionally as well.
[12:02]Like if you have a bad day as an actor,
[12:05]which is, you know, those days where you're working away
[12:07]and just nothing works, your brain is sticky or something.
[12:11]If you're an actor, the director will give you a nudge
[12:14]or somebody else who can seem with you
[12:16]will throw you something interesting to work up.
[12:18]And suddenly you're through that barrier
[12:19]and everything's working again.
[12:21]If you're a writer, there is no director.
[12:23]There is no other actor.
[12:24]There's you and your notebook
[12:27]and you had better find some way to unsticky your brain.
[12:31]So that, yeah, and this is that my Mrs. O'Shelf elements,
[12:33]as well.
[12:34]And this, you know, we've done a show a little good
[12:36]on the pub and talk about it.
[12:37]We've got a long days rehearsal, we'll all talk it over.
[12:40]So I miss those bits.
[12:42]But what I love about writing, right,
[12:44]is I'm free to do it whenever.
[12:46]Because as an actor, you're dependent
[12:49]on someone else to give you permission to work.
[12:51]As a writer, I can work whenever I want.
[12:54]All I need is a pen and a notebook.
[12:55]And it's wonderful.
[12:57]It's really liberating.
[12:58]And I still appreciate that.
[13:00]Do you write with a pen and a notebook?
[13:01]So you're back and forth.
[13:02]Like I'll start scenes with a pen and a notebook
[13:05]and then go put them on the computer
[13:06]and do something else with them and scribble with it.
[13:08]I'm back and forth and messy and disorganized.
[13:11]That's OK.
[13:14]Whatever works.
[13:15]Whatever works, whatever works.
[13:17]Oh my gosh.
[13:18]What are you working on for your next book after this?
[13:21]This is weird because I thought the search
[13:23]of was a standalone, I thought.
[13:26]And then I was just enjoying that whole mystery software
[13:30]on Western hardware feels so much that I ended up doing
[13:34]the hunter.
[13:35]And now I'm realizing that whatever arcs I've set up
[13:39]between the two of those books for this,
[13:42]these kind of linked books within this one village world,
[13:45]those arcs aren't complete, like the themes
[13:48]or whatever the characters are doing.
[13:50]So it seems to be turning out to be a trilogy,
[13:52]which is not what I expected.
[13:54]But I like those people.
[13:55]I like that setting.
[13:56]I like the chance to spend a little longer there.
[13:58]Oh, I love that.
[14:00]It must be nice sort of re-tapping and reuniting.
[14:03]That's the word, reuniting with your characters again.
[14:06]It can be sad saying goodbye.
[14:08]So yeah, it kind of can.
[14:11]And especially these, like these books,
[14:13]I don't think are as dark as some of my other ones.
[14:16]These are all basically the main characters
[14:18]are all people who care a lot about each other
[14:21]and are trying to do that well.
[14:22]And it's not always an easy thing to do well,
[14:25]but they are really doing everything they can
[14:27]to do it right and be good to each other.
[14:29]And that's a nice world to be in.
[14:31]That is a nice world to be in.
[14:32]So when you're not reading old Westerns,
[14:35]what are some of the things?
[14:36]Like what's on your nightstand right now?
[14:39]Oh, I got lucky.
[14:40]I got a sneaky early copy of Emma Tolz's
[14:43]short pitching collection table for two.
[14:46]And I loved Lincoln Highway.
[14:48]I loved gentlemen in Moscow.
[14:51]And so this was like, oh, we made your tweet here.
[14:53]And unsurprisingly, it's great.
[14:56]It is wonderful.
[14:57]Did you read his earlier one, the rules of civility?
[15:00]Yes, love that too.
[15:01]But I felt a kind of special attachment
[15:03]to gentlemen in Moscow,
[15:04]because that's where one side of my family comes from.
[15:08]It's the whole Russian aristocracy world.
[15:10]And my mother gave me the book going,
[15:12]if you want to understand that side of your family,
[15:14]read this book, she was absolutely convinced
[15:17]that the author had to be from that background.
[15:21]And apparently no, nothing at all.
[15:23]He's just really, really good at immersing himself
[15:26]in a world and making it come alive.
[15:28]Wow.
[15:29]So how much do you know about your history
[15:31]and the Russian aristocracy?
[15:33]Not a lot, really, because it's one of those things
[15:35]where, obviously, if you were a Russian aristocracy,
[15:38]then in the last 100 years you have not been that at all.
[15:41]So there's nobody left in Russia,
[15:43]no connections left back there,
[15:45]no places to go back to or anything.
[15:48]I don't even speak Russian,
[15:50]which I feel really guilty about,
[15:51]but not much of a connection left except old photos
[15:55]and bits and pieces and not a lot.
[15:58]No.
[15:59]Do you ever read like totally off genre?
[16:02]Like, I'm just in the mood for a rom-com
[16:04]or just something like totally unexpected?
[16:07]Yeah, I do.
[16:08]I like all kinds of stuff,
[16:09]but I don't really stick too hard to mystery.
[16:12]I like, partly because I like books
[16:15]that mix genres up anyway.
[16:18]Yeah, so I'm going to be reading a mix of genres.
[16:20]Yeah, I like historical romance.
[16:22]I like Georgia hair, for example.
[16:24]I like, I read a certain amount of kids books
[16:28]because I've got a certain amount of kids.
[16:30]No.
[16:31]Mystery and Western and just a mix of stuff.
[16:34]Yeah, I'll try anything.
[16:37]A lot of literary fiction and Joseph O'Connor,
[16:40]for example, Shadowplay was one of my great books
[16:42]of the last year.
[16:44]Yeah, bits of it all.
[16:45]Have you managed to raise readers and writers?
[16:49]Readers definitely.
[16:50]They're not at the point where you can tell
[16:51]whether they're writers yet,
[16:52]although one is absolutely determined
[16:54]that that's where she's headed.
[16:56]And yeah, no matter how I try to convince you
[16:58]to go get a job, she's not writing all the way.
[17:03]My son just came home with this book.
[17:05]He's nine, that he book, it's like two pages
[17:07]but he wrote it in school, it took like this whole year.
[17:10]And I was like, oh my gosh,
[17:11]I think you're going to be a writer.
[17:12]And he was like, great.
[17:14]Like, I'm, you know, he's like, I'm going to be a writer.
[17:16]Like, you're a writer and it was like the cutest thing.
[17:18]I was like, this is literally better
[17:20]than anything that could ever happen.
[17:23]He is kind of wonderful, isn't it?
[17:24]Especially when you're going,
[17:25]but that's lovely, what you wrote is lovely.
[17:27]You're sort of delighted and sort of proud.
[17:29]And then this other part of me is going,
[17:32]child rebelled against your parents,
[17:34]be in it, counting for God's sake.
[17:39]No, I don't know.
[17:40]I took a counting, I wouldn't wish that on somebody
[17:43]who really needs to be a writer.
[17:44]I think it's like, that was tough.
[17:47]That was, that was like the worst class
[17:48]that I think I've ever taken.
[17:49]I mean, not, that's not how my brain works.
[17:52]That's all, I'll just say that.
[17:54]My neither testimony nor very much no.
[17:58]So what advice would you give to aspiring authors?
[18:01]What read a lot is the kind of the cliche on, I think,
[18:05]is because the more you read,
[18:06]the more you find things that give you a sense
[18:09]of rhythms of language, rhythms of structure,
[18:12]and that give you a deep sense of character.
[18:16]And I think also my big one is,
[18:19]I'm not sure this is where everybody
[18:21]but be true to your characters.
[18:22]Like if your characters wouldn't do X thing,
[18:27]then even if you need X thing to happen for the plot,
[18:30]don't force it that way.
[18:31]You're gonna have to find another way around it.
[18:34]The other one is to cut the dream sequence.
[18:36]My husband has a thing about the dream sequence, right?
[18:39]And he's my first reader.
[18:40]He's really good structurally
[18:42]because of being a film guy,
[18:43]like he directs film, he's a film guy.
[18:46]And so he has a demon eye for structure.
[18:50]And one of the things he is just obsessive about
[18:53]is kill the dream sequence.
[18:54]He says it is always either a repeat of something
[18:57]that you already did in the main action
[18:59]or else it's a lazy way of doing something
[19:01]that you should do in the main art.
[19:04]So I think in nine books,
[19:06]he has let me get away with one dream sequence.
[19:08]So my name is barely even a couple of paragraphs.
[19:13]So yeah, cut the dream sequence.
[19:14]You can find a better way to do that.
[19:16]And small one on a stylistic level
[19:18]don't be scared of saying said.
[19:20]Like you get writers who are scared to say she said,
[19:25]he said in case it sounds boring,
[19:27]but it genuinely doesn't,
[19:28]because as a reader, I know.
[19:30]My brain just cancels that out.
[19:31]It's a default.
[19:32]But if people start throwing in more
[19:35]and more convoluted verbs, I can notice.
[19:38]I remember reading one book where the author was so terrified
[19:41]of using said that characters were like,
[19:43]they were brain, they were hooting,
[19:45]they were bleeding.
[19:46]It was like, oh, McDonald's.
[19:48]I'm in there.
[19:51]Said it's fine, you're cool with said.
[19:54]Somebody once told me because about dialogue,
[19:57]give your readers a little more credit.
[19:59]Like you don't eat.
[20:00]and always have to spell it out.
[20:01]Like they'll follow along.
[20:03]Like your brain just, you know, you'll alternate
[20:05]and you don't have to always even say it.
[20:07]Yeah, and I end up having to catch myself
[20:10]and cut adverts from the dialogue thing
[20:12]because, you know, I mean, if you're writing a line
[20:14]of dialogue clearly enough,
[20:16]it's gonna be clear that he said it happily
[20:18]or I'm really or whatever it is.
[20:19]You don't need to tell the reader.
[20:20]The reader is smart enough to gather that part.
[20:23]Right, or they should figure it out.
[20:25]Or I should write the dialogue better.
[20:27]Or you should write the dialogue.
[20:30]That's so funny.
[20:31]So if you had one chance,
[20:33]if there was one part in one play
[20:35]that someone came to you today and said,
[20:37]I'm offering you this.
[20:38]Like what part would you just never turn down?
[20:41]One, one, one.
[20:44]Just one.
[20:46]Okay, can I cheat and go one
[20:47]that I really wish I'd done when I was younger
[20:49]and that's each.
[20:50]Yep.
[20:51]I love Viola from Tolstnight.
[20:53]I absolutely love her because he or she is right.
[20:56]She is, she has to pretend to be someone she's not.
[21:00]She's surrounded by all these people
[21:02]who are like wildly deceiving themselves in every way,
[21:05]but she somehow manages to hang on to the truth.
[21:08]Like even when she has to deceive,
[21:10]her lines are some carefully structured
[21:12]so that she never outright lies.
[21:15]And she's greeting her brother.
[21:17]She's in love with a guy who's not in love with her.
[21:20]And yet she somehow keeps her sense of humor through it all.
[21:23]And I really like that combination of integrity
[21:26]and resourcefulness and humor under fire.
[21:28]So I would love to get Viola ago.
[21:30]I've been in Tolstnight, but I was fasting.
[21:32]The clown, I was never Viola.
[21:34]And now I'm kind of thinking I might have aged out.
[21:36]Well, I see a family production in your future.
[21:39]Maybe you're around the house.
[21:41]Well, the kids tell them you're doing this
[21:43]whether you like it or not.
[21:44]Yeah, your husband can direct the whole thing.
[21:46]And there you go.
[21:47]Right, there you go.
[21:47]Thank you so much.
[21:48]Well, Tana, thank you so much.
[21:50]Congratulations on the hunter.
[21:52]I wish you all the best and yes, very exciting.
[21:55]Thank you. And thank you so much for having me on my pleasure.
[21:58]Take care. Bye.
[21:59]Take care. Have a good one.
[22:00]You too.
[22:03]Thanks for listening to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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