Dara Levan, IT COULD BE WORSE
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
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[0:34]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Dara LeVan is the author of It Could Be Worse.
[1:06]Dara is the creator and host of Every Soul has a story, a podcast in which she interviews
[1:11]inspiring people from around the globe.
[1:13]Her calling to impact others began at the age of 12 in her hometown of North Miami Beach,
[1:17]Florida, when she interviewed the residents of the nursing home where her grandmother lived
[1:20]and wrote their stories.
[1:21]By the way, I did something like this.
[1:23]I interviewed the people in my grandmother's nursing home.
[1:26]I don't even think Dara and I spoke about this anyway.
[1:28]As an undergrad at Indiana University, Dara earned a BA in English and pursued a career
[1:32]in journalism, but decided to pivot and return to South Florida to earn her MS in
[1:36]communication sciences and disorders.
[1:38]Dara stopped practicing speech therapy to return to full time writing.
[1:42]Actively involved in her community, she is currently a board member of the Community Foundation
[1:46]of Broward and board member of Joe DiMaggio Children's Hospital Foundation, Memorial Hospital
[1:50]Foundation, and the Community Foundation of Broward.
[1:53]Dara served as a board member of the Goodman Jewish Family Services of Broward County,
[1:58]and junior achievement of South Florida.
[1:59]She is also a founding member of the Circle of Friends for the Alphanage Sherman Library
[2:03]Research Information and Technology Center, and Nova Southeastern University.
[2:06]Dara is a member of the Women's Fiction Writers Association, Women's National Book
[2:09]Association, and the author's guild, and Dara and I will be in conversation at the Palm Beach
[2:15]Bookstore at the end of March.
[2:17]So check out zibbyvents.ticketleaf.com or go to zibbyowens.com and you can find out more or
[2:23]just the Palm Beach Bookstore.com and find out where to see Dara and me.
[2:28]Welcome, Dara.
[2:29]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss your novel.
[2:34]It could be worse.
[2:35]Thank you for having me zibby.
[2:37]This is such an honor and it's a very uncomfortable feeling because typically I'm on
[2:42]the other side sitting here being interviewed and I'm so much more comfortable being in
[2:48]your chair.
[2:49]So this is an interesting flip of the script, I guess.
[2:53]Well, we'll have fun.
[2:55]Just enjoy it.
[2:56]And we're actually doing this recording right after getting back from our Miami retreat
[3:00]and you were there.
[3:01]We got to hang out the whole time.
[3:02]So Kyle was literally just saying something, oh, we were like brushing our teeth and
[3:07]he's like, you know, Dara told me that the whole secret to a good marriage is separate
[3:12]bathrooms.
[3:13]He's right.
[3:14]We had to reconstruct our bathrooms and he mentioned something like that.
[3:19]And I said, actually, we have this wonderful meeting space because my husband and I are
[3:23]like peanut butter and jelly.
[3:24]We are a total team.
[3:25]We've been together 24 years, like a beautiful love story.
[3:29]And he, you know, we had to reconstruct our bathrooms.
[3:32]So Kyle said something about separate.
[3:35]I said, well, they're together because we'd love to talk and, you know, between spits
[3:39]of toothpaste we catch up, right?
[3:41]But we do have different toilets now.
[3:43]It's wonderful.
[3:44]Interesting.
[3:45]Yes, because you know women, we have stuff to do.
[3:48]I don't know.
[3:49]Men in general, they just seem, that seems like they're meditative.
[3:54]Spod, not for me.
[3:55]I'm in and I'm out.
[3:57]Okay, so you're also a novelist.
[4:02]It could be worse.
[4:03]So exciting.
[4:05]Can you please tell everybody what your book is about?
[4:08]Sure.
[4:09]I thank you for asking.
[4:10]It's about a woman.
[4:11]Her name is Allegra Gill and she suspects that her charmed life is not all that it
[4:17]may be, but she doesn't awaken until becoming a mother.
[4:21]And after discovering something devastating in her childhood home, in the piano
[4:26]event of her childhood home, she starts to question if the people who should love her
[4:31]the most, her parents and who raised her really have done more harm than healing.
[4:38]So this is really a story of awakening and acceptance, but not necessarily forgiveness
[4:43]in the traditional sense.
[4:45]So that's about a quick part of it.
[4:49]But one thing I'd like to add is the musicality component.
[4:53]So Allegra's name is very clearly chosen for that reason.
[4:57]Allegra means happiness and Italian and she's Jewish.
[5:01]Her husband is what's called jubin, very popular here in Miami.
[5:05]Anyone who grew up here, I didn't have to do a lot of research because two of my boyfriend
[5:09]through jubin.
[5:10]So is that Jewish in Cuban?
[5:13]Exactly.
[5:14]Yes, it's a big thing here in Miami.
[5:16]One that is from here, I'm a Miami native, where the book takes place in present day.
[5:21]And there are flashbacks to a Camp in Northern Michigan, definitely inspired by my experience
[5:27]eight summers at Interlock in Arts Camp where I did sing and now I just sing in the shower.
[5:33]My brain just like five notes.
[5:34]It's nothing impressive.
[5:36]But Allegra's journey, I wrote the novel in the cadence of a waltz.
[5:41]So present, present, past up, up, down.
[5:44]And that's also the rhythm of a waltz because I believe healing is a waltz.
[5:49]It's not just forward, it's not just backward, certain life events, experiences, even
[5:55]just unexpected triggering moments can bring us forward and backward.
[6:00]And that's her healing journey that she doesn't even know she's about to go on.
[6:06]And she's so blindly loyal to her father who's a pediatric neurosurgeon.
[6:11]She's a healer, he's brilliant, he's her everything.
[6:14]And everyone is seeing it but her.
[6:18]And when she finally starts to awaken, just like a death, you know, a death of who you
[6:23]thought somebody was, she has such a hard time saying it.
[6:29]Even though she's a therapist herself, she's very well aware that irony there, it makes
[6:34]it real for her to admit that her father, especially her mother too, are not who she thought
[6:40]they were.
[6:41]That is hard.
[6:42]When you see your parents as people, but also with flaws that affect you directly and
[6:47]how do you reconcile that and your own identity and all that, where did this plot and
[6:53]book even come from?
[6:55]It's interesting, Zivi, I'm glad you asked because as a podcaster myself, on every soul
[6:59]has a story, I've had so many people trust me to share their stories.
[7:04]And not just that, I've had so much personal experience in the workplace, in friendships
[7:09]with narcissistic abuse.
[7:11]And it's such a silent, you know, you don't see it, there's no bruises, there are, you
[7:16]know, people are walking around in the world looking strong and totally balanced and yet
[7:23]they're hurting inside and really being killed apart one layer at a time, sometimes not
[7:28]even knowing it.
[7:29]And so a leg where I had no idea, she just thought, well, you know, my parents are, you
[7:33]know, my dad especially, she wants, you know, excellence.
[7:37]What's wrong with that?
[7:38]What's wrong with calling me fat?
[7:39]What's wrong with taking me to Weight Watchers at 10 years old, she's thinking.
[7:43]That was her norm.
[7:44]And so I thought, this was a topic that was really important to explore, but it's really
[7:50]a story of unconditional love.
[7:52]So, and multi-generational love and also breaking a generational cycle of abuse.
[7:59]So her grandparents are herself, as well as her sanctuary in the woods, Camp Intermezzo.
[8:06]And her best friend, she meets there, who's her bestie for life and anyone that went
[8:10]to sleep by camp knows this, but especially this camp because of the connection of music,
[8:15]which I've always believed as a universal language.
[8:18]And I learned that as a camperate interlockin, it's still with me.
[8:21]I mean, I, that's all I talk about.
[8:23]I met my husband by talking about that.
[8:25]We got engaged 11 months later.
[8:27]So this is so personal in that regard.
[8:30]And I feel, this is something people are afraid to talk about as a stranger and, you
[8:35]know, having challenges with people that are not just parents, cousins, sisters, friends.
[8:41]You know, there's so much shame.
[8:43]So the deep root of Allegra's journey, part of it is shame.
[8:49]Shame about her body, her, her mother made her feel horrible and her father, for that
[8:53]matter.
[8:54]She was never enough.
[8:55]Tell me more about narcissistic abuse.
[8:57]I know this is sort of like in the zeitgeist at the moment, finally getting a lot of
[9:01]airtime in places.
[9:03]But it's complicated.
[9:05]How do you know if you are, quote, unquote, a victim of narcissistic abuse?
[9:10]How do you know if someone is a narcissist?
[9:13]How do you identify that not to pin you as like the BL and all expert on this?
[9:17]But just in wondering if people are out there thinking, well, maybe I'm a, maybe I've
[9:22]had narcissistic abuse.
[9:23]How would I know?
[9:24]I really appreciate that question.
[9:27]And although I'm not an expert, I'm trying to feel like it because it's something that's
[9:30]it's coming up repeatedly the last couple of years.
[9:34]And I've done not only a ton of research, but like I said, personal experience.
[9:39]There are several types of narcissism.
[9:41]So there's covert.
[9:43]That's the hardest spot.
[9:44]Those are the people that appear to be kind.
[9:47]They I almost think of it as a fish and a hook and they hook you with either their charm
[9:53]or their intellect or their wit or I've done this for you.
[9:58]And they really win.
[10:00]And I've read that sometimes it's like six or eight months
[10:02]into the relationship and it could be anything,
[10:04]it could be romantic, it could be professional,
[10:07]it could be familial.
[10:08]This is pervasive really like a cancer
[10:12]and you don't even know what's happening.
[10:14]So COVID is really the hardest
[10:16]because what happens is this is term
[10:18]that has been thrown around a lot lately
[10:19]but it's truth is gaslighting which actually,
[10:22]I learned recently, I believe gaslighting
[10:25]was the word of the year.
[10:27]I believe 2021 or 2022.
[10:29]If that doesn't tell you anything.
[10:31]Oh my gosh.
[10:32]Right, I know that's so disturbing
[10:34]which all the more reason I think the story is important.
[10:37]Over it, conversely, is over narcissism is really obvious.
[10:41]Those are people that are grandiose.
[10:43]You could spot them in a heartbeat.
[10:45]They need constant attention or they're always,
[10:49]both in both instances with narcissism,
[10:52]there's a lot of demeaning others
[10:54]making people feel less than.
[10:56]But at the root of it, a narcissist has no self-awareness.
[11:00]So I used to be a speech pathologist
[11:02]which is why there's some threads of that as well
[11:05]in the novel which I'd love to share.
[11:07]And they truly have no sense of self, it's really sad.
[11:11]So they're basically vacuous,
[11:13]they're like a shell of a human.
[11:15]And so it's one of the hardest things to treat also.
[11:18]I've spoken to several therapists why
[11:20]because just like in speech therapy
[11:23]if you're not aware well with anything in life,
[11:25]if you're not aware about behavior, how can you change it?
[11:29]Over or covert narcissist,
[11:30]they truly think they're doing nothing wrong.
[11:32]They lie, they criticize, they put people down
[11:36]because at the root of it, they don't love themselves.
[11:39]And so that's why it could be worse
[11:41]is ultimately a story of unconditional love.
[11:44]Allegra is always loved herself,
[11:46]but has a lot of self-doubt
[11:49]because all these seeds that have been planted.
[11:51]And I'm sure you know, Zippy,
[11:52]I mean, there's so many little messages
[11:54]I've had to undo from my childhood.
[11:56]My parents did the best they could.
[11:58]I'm sure your parents did too.
[12:00]But there's little messages that come up
[12:02]that you could either delete,
[12:04]you could rewind and unpack it.
[12:05]You know, there's so much we can do, right?
[12:09]And a narcissist in any situation,
[12:12]another common theme for them,
[12:14]it's almost like they're programming their prey.
[12:18]Right?
[12:19]So it's not uncommon to see narcissist with friends
[12:22]where you ever see somebody where you ask
[12:25]what to look out for.
[12:26]I know someone or I knew someone,
[12:28]most of this person's friends were divorced
[12:31]or lonely, you know,
[12:33]that these are people a narcissist will prey on.
[12:37]Somebody who's insecure, they'll prey on that.
[12:39]Why?
[12:40]Because they need to feel better about themselves.
[12:43]Just like a bully situation on the playground,
[12:46]bullies are usually looking for control.
[12:48]And so there's a sense of if I control you,
[12:52]it's almost an extension of self.
[12:54]That's another form of narcissism.
[12:56]That doesn't always come across as toxic,
[12:59]but you'll see that with parents a lot
[13:00]where, you know, the child is an appendage,
[13:03]a child is an extension of the parent,
[13:06]whether that's a perfect weight,
[13:08]a perfect look, perfect career choosing,
[13:10]the right husband.
[13:12]So it really manifests in such myriad ways
[13:15]that it is hard to spot.
[13:17]And when you start knowing what you're looking for,
[13:20]it becomes very clear and it's really hard to unsee
[13:23]and unhere, which is what a legger really struggles with,
[13:26]because she's just like, this can't be.
[13:29]And I guess in your experience,
[13:31]not to spend the whole time talking about this,
[13:33]but for the victims like a legger
[13:35]of narcissistic abuse,
[13:38]what is the remedy for that?
[13:40]Like, what can they do?
[13:42]It's a great question.
[13:43]So what is I read about
[13:45]and I actually interviewed some therapists, you know,
[13:48]directly, the first thing to do is boundaries.
[13:51]And one thing that, you know,
[13:53]that word also has been thrown around so much lately,
[13:56]Zervi, it's interesting.
[13:58]People that need boundaries the most
[14:00]will resist them the most.
[14:02]So the way an narcissist will often react to boundaries
[14:06]is anger.
[14:07]So you have some narcissists that really explode.
[14:09]And that's scary.
[14:10]That's a very alarming thing,
[14:13]putting that person back in their place
[14:14]that they are trying to control.
[14:17]The other way they will do that is perhaps triangulation.
[14:20]So they'll start trying to intervene
[14:21]between a relationship.
[14:23]So maybe if it's a parent,
[14:26]they don't want to be seen.
[14:28]That's their biggest fear is being seen
[14:30]for who they are and who they aren't.
[14:32]So the one way is the boundaries.
[14:36]It's the only way, quite frankly.
[14:37]And then what happens if someone is really,
[14:39]what they call a severe pathologic narcissist,
[14:43]it'll be so resistant.
[14:45]They might start spreading lies about you
[14:46]or your friends, your family in the workplace.
[14:49]So then you go to partial contact.
[14:51]So it's a stronger boundary.
[14:54]I'm only gonna speak to you once a week.
[14:56]And it could be a silent boundary.
[14:58]Often that's the safest way with a narcissist
[15:01]because if you sit them down and say,
[15:02]so here's the deal.
[15:04]This is how we're going to begin to engage now.
[15:07]That doesn't go over so well
[15:08]because they see everything as an attack on them,
[15:11]even though it isn't.
[15:12]But they have such a fragile sense of self if any
[15:16]that everything you say and a leg or experience is this
[15:21]becomes this like horrible attack on that person
[15:25]and judgment when it's really just
[15:27]trying to have a healthy relationship.
[15:30]When it gets really severe, unfortunately,
[15:32]most people have to go no contact.
[15:34]And that is just the hardest thing in the world
[15:36]because who wants to do that?
[15:39]It's usually someone you love or respect
[15:41]like if it's your boss.
[15:41]How do you go no contact with the boss?
[15:43]You don't have to.
[15:44]Wait, not an avenue.
[15:45]No, right.
[15:48]I love your soul onward and upward exactly.
[15:50]And I just got this yesterday as a gift
[15:52]and I had to wear it right away
[15:54]because I don't really love wearing black, but thank you.
[15:57]I was gonna say I never see you in black.
[15:58]You know, it's not one of my colors.
[16:00]I had my colors done.
[16:02]They're a little black and it looks great on you.
[16:05]Thank you.
[16:07]Wait, go back to the speech pathology
[16:08]because I did notice that that a leg
[16:10]or does have a stutter,
[16:10]particularly when she's talking to her dad.
[16:12]I feel like it's always like,
[16:13]to to to dad when you wrote it over and over.
[16:16]Tell me about that.
[16:17]He only stutters with her father, actually.
[16:20]Only.
[16:20]And that's quite intentional
[16:22]and I'm grateful that you notice that.
[16:23]So yeah, I really wanted to show,
[16:27]so I was a speech pathologist.
[16:30]And I went to Indiana University.
[16:31]I was an English and journalism double major.
[16:33]So writing is not a new thing for me.
[16:36]I basically was writing since I could speak,
[16:38]which if anyone that knows me was probably a new to row.
[16:41]So speech therapy.
[16:45]I loved because I love children.
[16:47]I love the brain.
[16:48]I love psychology.
[16:50]But what really I know is my passion and purpose is writing.
[16:53]And so I really wanted to integrate.
[16:56]I didn't see a lot of representation.
[16:57]I really haven't in fiction of speech and language disorders.
[17:01]And so as this character came to life,
[17:03]I thought, you know, maybe I can show stuttering through trauma.
[17:08]So there's different types of stuttering.
[17:10]Most common is childhood stuttering.
[17:11]You'll see a true stutter.
[17:13]You'll start seeing it between the ages of three and five.
[17:17]And there's other types where there's a neurologic injury.
[17:21]It could be a stroke.
[17:22]It could be a car accident.
[17:24]But stuttering because of trauma is less common.
[17:28]And I thought it would be really interesting
[17:30]to explore how an Allegra doesn't even realize it, right?
[17:35]And I don't know if you noticed.
[17:36]Also, she's only called Allegra by her parents.
[17:38]Everyone else calls her alley.
[17:40]That's another way of a narcissist keeping themselves up here.
[17:44]And she is down here.
[17:46]Interesting.
[17:47]So it's another, and those names came to me so immediately.
[17:50]Ruby and Allegra are actually names of girls I went to camp with.
[17:54]A little girl, and I just love those names
[17:57]since I was a little.
[17:57]I knew those names would be in a book one day or somehow used.
[18:01]So yeah, I think it's interesting.
[18:03]Trauma can manifest and reveal itself in so many ways.
[18:08]And I wanted to explore how that happened through speech.
[18:10]Because also what I found really interesting
[18:13]about Allegra's journey, and she just told me to write this.
[18:16]We hear these voices, right?
[18:17]As authors, I mean, don't tell a therapist that
[18:19]because they're a baker acting, right?
[18:22]We all talk about, you know, I heard this,
[18:25]my character told me to do this.
[18:26]It sounds, it really sounds insane, doesn't it?
[18:28]But you understand, right?
[18:30]But it happens.
[18:30]I totally get it.
[18:31]Everyone does it and everybody says it sounds insane.
[18:34]So at least there's a common awareness
[18:37]that there is some element of subconsciousness working
[18:40]and that it just kind of gets, you know, it runs away
[18:43]once you get started.
[18:45]It's amazing, right?
[18:46]And so I thought, how can I bring in my background?
[18:48]And my second book already that I've outlined in my head
[18:51]like two years ago will absolutely also have one or two
[18:54]characters or the speech of language challenge
[18:56]and how does that integrate into their life's journey?
[18:58]I really want to teach through story.
[19:00]And so no matter what, you know, I am always a speech therapist
[19:04]and I feel as a writer and as a podcast,
[19:06]you're just any, I think, you know, stories matter.
[19:09]And I feel that there's something really powerful
[19:12]with fiction because my hope is that readers feel empowered,
[19:18]inspired and ultimately really understand
[19:22]that the human capacity for resilience
[19:23]because we have so much more capacity for resilience
[19:26]than we realized.
[19:27]And that's actually something that's even on my website
[19:30]is I really believe in radiance in our breaking points
[19:33]because I, you know, it's like a glow stick, you know,
[19:36]like barmbot mitzvahs or, I don't know if they still use it now.
[19:40]But yeah, you know what I mean, it's right.
[19:41]And you break it.
[19:43]Yep. And then it starts to glow.
[19:44]So I really believe that we grow and glow
[19:49]through so much heartbreak.
[19:52]And so this is a heart-wrenching story, but it's, I believe,
[19:55]and I hope you found it to be true, heartwarming
[19:58]because ultimately it's, it's,
[20:00]empowering and you know a lot of times we don't learn resilience just you know you don't drink it
[20:05]like say oh I'm gonna have a cup of ginger tea and all of a sudden I feel just so resilient
[20:10]unfortunately on our human journey and in our characters journeys which I hope are so aligned
[20:16]because the best books for me make me think and feel and cry and laugh and just not feel like
[20:23]I'm alone in and that's really my hope with this book and hopefully many others that will come
[20:30]is to have readers feel really an authentic connection I guess that's also my theater background
[20:36]I just the believability of a character I think is so important because there's so many books
[20:40]I know you read I don't first of all can we talk about how I mean you said to me oh I read your
[20:45]book last night what do you mean you read my book last night I mean you have four kids I didn't have
[20:50]my kids they were with their dad and I don't know I know how to like speed read now I mean I can just
[20:58]I don't know go through every page I don't know I mean I think you have to teach a course on that
[21:04]because I might TBR or to be read anyone that doesn't know what that is my husband teases me like
[21:10]he's like is this an art installation I mean I keep buying more and more books and they're all over
[21:14]the place I have that too you don't want to know I mean there are books everywhere but that's why I
[21:20]like having the podcast because I know I have to read them by a certain time so it all gets done
[21:24]anything I put in my calendar or in my inbox it'll get done but anything else forget it
[21:29]one other thing though with your book you know as a former weight watchers you know person and then
[21:35]eventually leader and then eventually like not a fan at this point but can I just read this part
[21:44]you write about that you said my father's condescending comments about the women who practically
[21:49]raised me and Jack still echoed in my mind he couldn't stand the side of anyone fat not at home
[21:54]not at the office not anywhere Dr. Kurt labeled one nanny rice patty fatty and fired her because
[22:00]of her size several dedicated nurses at his office were also dismissed because of their less than
[22:05]desirable appearances pleasantly plump and morbidly obese were frequently used phrases I'd heard again
[22:11]and again at five years old and now I winced recalling my first step onto the public square
[22:17]symbol of humiliation otherwise known as the weight watchers scale one time an older woman
[22:24]with frosted hair glance down at me compassionate eyes let me know I was more than my physicality
[22:29]five by seven index cards waited in the box blank until the next written measurement no matter
[22:35]what the number I never measured up to my father's expectations listening to all the adults
[22:39]collectively commiserate I learned to avoid ingesting sodium the night before weigh ins I also
[22:45]wore the exact same outfit each week every ounce counted 10 years old was a bit young to be
[22:51]dieting especially without anyone my age to normalize that experience every Saturday morning we
[22:56]drove to weight watchers daddy daughter special time when my father would share stories about
[23:02]growing up in the snow I'd ring my hands like a soaked terry cloth towel nervous yet excited for
[23:07]our morning of just us I waited the loss hopeful that a descending number would gain my father's
[23:12]approval myself worth was an external umbilical cord connected to my father and linked to the scale
[23:19]I felt raw almost naked would it ever be severed I love that passage oh my gosh and I am sorry for
[23:27]all the sirens in the background don't know if you can hear them 10 years old take take us through
[23:31]this and did this come from your own life someone you know where did this come from maybe yes to all
[23:37]yeah yeah I really I've seen it I've experienced it I have even now I mean gosh it's even worse
[23:47]now with social media and just the whole expectation of women and men that's the other thing too
[23:56]that's not addressed much although I touch upon it with jack a little bit her brother and how they
[24:01]you know I don't want to ruin the story but that's a big part of their narcissism manifests as
[24:06]well so yes I went to weight watchers and I was young I don't know if it was willingly I don't
[24:14]know what my memory serves to be honest and I do know not just with myself but I saw with friends
[24:21]I actually talked about this with a high school friend recently and then another friend I went in
[24:25]college with her you know how not just parents but society there is this not only expectation I'm
[24:33]trying to think of the right word but again a sense of self a sense of your parent your grandparents
[24:42]your friend your neighbor they're saying it to be nice or they're saying it for your health
[24:48]but as a child you could see right through the BS you can feel it you know that look you know that
[24:53]look like you know that look I know the look I have I had grandmothers with the look at my mom I
[25:01]mean you know I'm not not point you know never mind not gonna say a thing about my family but I hear
[25:06]you same you know that was a different kind of look you know I'm glad I'm glad you related to it
[25:18]I'm hoping there's other universal themes in the novel that are relatable like loss and most of
[25:25]all love and I'm grateful because you know having children as you know really opens up your mind
[25:31]and your eyes and your heart I mean this having kids is what taught Allegra a healthy way to love
[25:36]and be loved because you have children that kept asking mommy why does you know grandma do this mommy
[25:43]why does grandpa treat you that way it didn't even occur to her same thing with the weight
[25:48]watcher stuff like she didn't really know that there's anything wrong with that so nothing
[25:54]inherently is wrong with going to weight watchers are having a child you know encouraging them to
[25:59]lose weight for their health but there is something wrong with the tide to love and acceptance
[26:05]that's not okay do you have any advice for aspiring authors I do and mine's interesting
[26:12]because I this is my debut novel believe it or not people ask how long did it take this entire
[26:17]thing pour out of me in 15 weeks but I believe and that wasn't writing every day I'm a quick
[26:22]writer I think that I write my head a lot that might be from the days I was an arts reporter
[26:27]but my advice would be really write this story that speaks to your soul my whole heart is on
[26:35]every single page and tune out the noise I feel that there are a lot of discouragers oh my gosh
[26:42]there's so many books out there you're never going to do well you don't need those people in your
[26:46]life that's their insecurity kind of projecting on you it's not really your stuff and I think what's
[26:54]was the biggest challenge for me and I challenge myself to do this I'm such a perfectionist I
[26:58]actually love to edit in my 20s when I was in grad school I edited several books on ADHD and social
[27:04]skills again tied to speech in some way to speak therapy and my biggest challenge but I would
[27:09]encourage it go forward don't go backward I did not edit one single thing until I had the end
[27:16]that was the hardest thing for me because I love editing I mean to me that is like the most
[27:21]delicious thing in the world yeah and so the advice go forward do not go backward I actually wrote
[27:28]this entire story first and third person even though my gut told me it wasn't right and then I
[27:32]rewrote the whole thing in first person I thought you just changed pronouns not so much
[27:38]I was like yeah that'll be easy and thoroughly listen your gut you know I went down a whole path
[27:43]because I was never a novelist I never thought I'd write fiction and I started just reading
[27:49]books on craft jumping on your podcast Carly Waters everything I could soak in until a friend
[27:56]of mine said just sit down and write one of them is Brad Meltzer who's a really good friend of mine
[28:00]from my school and he said just write I said Brad what do you mean just write and January 6 2021
[28:08]I sat down and I said I'm hitting me and mid-April and I did good for you that was it and I have
[28:14]to now find the place to do that again and then the other thing I'll share that a really good
[28:19]friend of mine said which is terrifying but so also illuminating she said once that book is published
[28:27]it's no longer yours and I said excuse me she said it's not it's your readers you know it's not
[28:33]every book is for everybody and it's you move on to the next move on to the next there could
[28:41]be worse congratulations well done and more to come can't wait thank you so much Libby I appreciate
[28:48]having me on and taking in time to read my book baby of course okay bye bye
[28:53]thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to
[28:59]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for
[29:04]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom
[29:09]every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing
[29:14]and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music