Kristin Hannah, THE WOMEN
[0:04]Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Be Books with Zippy.
[0:07]I'm the host, Zippy Owens.
[0:09]I am an author, my latest is blank, pub date March 1st and novel.
[0:13]I'm also a podcaster, obviously, a publisher, a bookstore owner, and so much more.
[0:18]If you love books, you're in the right place.
[0:21]In fact, we call it the Zippyverse, or really, the LA Times called it the Zippyverse,
[0:25]and we're going with it.
[0:27]Go to Zippy Owens.com to learn more and follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens.
[0:32]Kristin Hannah is the author of The Women, A Novel.
[0:37]Kristin is the award-winning number one New York Times best-selling author of more than 20 novels.
[0:42]Her last book, The Four Winds, was the biggest selling hardcover fiction title of 2021.
[0:48]Her previous novels, The Four Winds, The Great Alone, The Nightingale, and Firefly Lane,
[0:52]were all named Goodreads Best Historical Fiction and her international blockbuster The Nightingale,
[0:58]won the coveted People's Choice Award for Best Fiction, and it was a selection
[1:02]of Reese's Book Club in 2023, and named Best Book of the Year by Amazon iTunes Buzzfeed,
[1:09]The Wall Street Journal, Paste, and The Week.
[1:11]In 2018, The Great Alone became an instant New York Times number one bestseller,
[1:16]as did The Four Winds when it was published in February of 2021, as well as becoming
[1:20]number one on the Wall Street Journal USA today in indie bookstores bestseller lists.
[1:25]It was selected as a book club pick by both the today show and the book of the month club,
[1:29]which named it The Best Book of 2021.
[1:32]Firefly Lane, her beloved novel about two best friends, was the number one Netflix series
[1:37]around the world in the week it came out.
[1:39]A former attorney, Kristin lives in the Pacific Northwest, and by the way, since this was recorded,
[1:44]there was a huge deal announced for the film rights of the women.
[1:47]Welcome, Kristin.
[1:48]Thank you so much for coming back on Momstone.
[1:50]I have time to read books to discuss the women.
[1:53]Congratulations.
[1:54]Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
[1:56]It's fabulous to see you again.
[1:59]And I just want to say, we just saw each other actually not too long ago in LA.
[2:03]And how fun was that?
[2:05]So I'm excited to sit down and talk to you about the next book.
[2:09]And congratulations.
[2:10]I just saw that burst made the Joyce Caroloat's long list.
[2:15]It did.
[2:15]So congratulations on that.
[2:17]That's very exciting.
[2:18]I know.
[2:19]That was so exciting.
[2:20]I'm so happy from Mary.
[2:21]She really deserves that.
[2:22]And yeah, that was so lovely.
[2:26]It's all publishing.
[2:27]You know, it's like so unpredictable.
[2:28]You're like, you just never know what's going to happen next.
[2:32]And think good.
[2:32]Something bad.
[2:33]Like what you expected, what you didn't expect.
[2:35]Right?
[2:36]I mean, you've been through this.
[2:37]Like, I've been through this for a couple of decades.
[2:41]And it's all sort of, you know, there's all the drama that goes around with it.
[2:46]And social media has both helped us.
[2:49]And I think in some ways hurt us in terms of, you know, getting message out and what
[2:54]the messaging is and how we as publishers and authors are able to control our own narrative.
[3:02]But the most important thing and what last day and day and year and year out is the content.
[3:09]And so, you know, if you publish a book you believe in, or you write a book you believe
[3:14]in, sometimes it works when it comes out, sometimes it works 10 years later.
[3:18]You know, you never know.
[3:20]So I think the important thing is to just keep putting the message and the stories that
[3:26]you want out into the world.
[3:28]Yeah.
[3:29]That is really good advice.
[3:30]I saw a post yesterday or two days ago from Ann de Poetano, because re-releasing this
[3:34]book that year.
[3:35]Did you see that?
[3:36]I'm like, see, you just don't know.
[3:38]You have a book come out.
[3:39]And then 20 years later you become like a huge thing and then outcomes the book, you know?
[3:45]Yeah, sometimes you're just honestly ahead of the market, ahead of your time, you know,
[3:51]or you haven't quite found your voice, you know, look at Rebecca Yaros and the fourth wing
[3:56]and now all of her backlist, you know, coming back in and so that's the most important thing
[4:02]I say to young writers, you know, just don't give up.
[4:06]As long as you stay in the game and keep writing, you have a really good shot at someday
[4:13]getting some version of what you dream of.
[4:16]Wow.
[4:17]Well, you've had, you know, a unique career and longevity, big heads, you know, TV, I mean, it's
[4:25]amazing, like all the things and going through various, you know, ebbs and flows of your
[4:30]own.
[4:31]I mean, pretty flow, but, you know, still, I mean, you don't do this for as long as I have
[4:38]without sort of getting through all of it and I guess that's life, right?
[4:43]I mean, I think people would think that someone like you, like it would, it's easy, like
[4:49]that you don't have to worry that you don't worry about new books coming out.
[4:52]Like, I remember we were emailing, you're like, you know, to like it.
[4:55]I'm like, does she really, is she really wondering if I'm liking her book like seriously?
[5:00]And of course, yes, but I'm like, you know, it doesn't go away.
[5:04]No.
[5:06]You know, it really, I think too, you find a core group of people and, you know, yes,
[5:12]you really want to hear what readers have to say, but I came of age in a time when you
[5:16]never heard, you know, so for 20 years, I didn't know what anyone thought except a handful
[5:22]of reviewers and, you know, whatever readers I met in bookstores.
[5:26]So you kind of develop a group of core readers.
[5:29]And so when I meet someone like you, who I think not only has their finger on the pulse
[5:36]of what the market is doing and what people are looking for and it is out talking to people
[5:40]who are generally my readers, it is important for me to know like what you think of it.
[5:47]Even though I know that it's, it's really difficult to say, well, I didn't like this one.
[5:51]You know, I mean, so it's a, it's a difficult conversation.
[5:55]Well, I was, I was actually just talking to my team about your book at, at lunch before
[6:00]I came up here to talk to you because I was like, you know, because I started reading this
[6:04]whenever it was that I got that I like couldn't wait to start.
[6:08]And I'm like, every scene is still like etched in my brain.
[6:12]Like that's a unique skill.
[6:13]Like I can picture the whole thing from before the war to when they were, when she got
[6:18]to the first bed to when they went to the wilderness, you know, like the deeper jungle
[6:23]said to speak like, all of these are such scenes so imprinted.
[6:27]You don't always get that.
[6:28]You can get a feeling from like looking at a book, but you don't always get like the
[6:31]the movie of it like so clearly.
[6:33]And that's because that's the way you write it.
[6:35]Like you, you like, you know, teleport the scenes so brilliantly into someone else's
[6:41]mind.
[6:42]Well, that's actually something I work really hard at and try to do.
[6:46]And I think it is a byproduct of my geek youth and my still bent towards fantasy and
[6:58]epic.
[6:59]You know, I really love world building.
[7:03]And one of the reasons I think I went to historical after years of writing contemporaries
[7:08]was I wanted to be able to recreate a time and place that was sort of outside the realms
[7:17]of my everyday life.
[7:19]And that's just really important because as you know, the point of my books and this book
[7:24]more than most, because I had a kind of an agenda here, the point is to make you feel
[7:30]something, to learn something and to feel something.
[7:34]And I don't think readers can really feel things that they can't envision.
[7:39]So and I really, you know, one of the things I've done really since night and gale particularly,
[7:46]but I'm trying to, in my own small way, create empathy to get readers to stand in someone
[7:56]else's shoes and think about life or hardship a little bit differently, a little more
[8:03]personally.
[8:04]I think that's one of the great gifts that fiction offers us and we need that now more
[8:10]than ever.
[8:11]100%.
[8:12]You're absolutely right.
[8:13]Okay.
[8:14]So the women itself, for those who don't know what the, for those who don't know what the
[8:18]women is about me, now that we've reversed this whole conversation, yeah, Christian, what
[8:22]is the women about?
[8:25]Well, the women is about the nurses, the young women in the 1960s who volunteered to serve
[8:34]in the Vietnam War.
[8:37]And it's their, their story of both going to war and coming home and what it was like.
[8:45]And interestingly enough, I first pitched this book to my editor in 1997.
[8:52]And my then, you know, very smart editors said, you aren't old enough and you aren't good
[8:58]enough.
[8:59]Come back when you are.
[9:00]And she was a Vietnam era.
[9:02]She went to Berkeley during that time period.
[9:05]So I really took that to heart and, and she was absolutely right.
[9:09]It took me a long time to come back and to feel that the world was ready for a book about
[9:14]Vietnam and that a book was ready about for the women, you know, a Vietnam.
[9:20]And this whole era is so much a part of my childhood.
[9:25]I came up age during this time when the, the US was just broken in half and, you know,
[9:32]when everybody was angry and, and all of this was going on and in large part Americans,
[9:40]you know, did not embrace the Vietnam vets when they came home.
[9:43]And so I watched all of this as sort of someone who was the age of the kids whose dads
[9:51]went to Vietnam.
[9:53]Wow.
[9:54]And so how did you know you were ready to do it now?
[9:56]Well, interestingly enough, you know, the, I turned the four.
[10:00]wins in final all done quits bed in March of 2020. So sort of the very start of the pandemic.
[10:09]And I actually following that, wrote us an op-sis for another book and turned it in and sold it
[10:17]and sat down to write it. And I don't know if it was the claustrophobia, you know, the way we
[10:24]all felt when we were locked down because here in Seattle, we were full on lockdown for quite
[10:29]some time. And I all of it, you know, one day I was talking to my girlfriend and I was complaining
[10:34]saying, I don't want to write the book. I just sold. And she said, well, you, you know, you've been
[10:39]waiting 20 years for Vietnam. Why don't you do it? And I thought, this is the moment. I can't do anything
[10:48]else. I can't leave. I can immerse myself in the level of research that was frankly frightening.
[10:56]And, you know, but it came at a very good time. And it sort of is what helped me survive the pandemic
[11:04]because like the four wins, I was reading about these women who had survived so much. And then
[11:12]there was the corollary to, you know, they were nurses. And I was watching the nurses in the
[11:18]pandemic be exhausted and overrun and underappreciated. And so it just all seemed to be the moment
[11:27]to come back to this. Wow. I mean, after your deep dive into nursing and all of it, what do you
[11:34]feel like you didn't know before that really, whether you're doing it in wartime and the scenes
[11:40]that you depict? Or so, you know, sometimes, you know, quite graphic detail, like very visual as I
[11:45]said, you know, almost like, as you said, books that make you feel. I mean, this one, you're like,
[11:50]almost holding your stomach and some of the scenes, right? Because it's like, oh my gosh, there's a lot
[11:54]of blood there. You know, that's good. I like books that make you feel, you know, but you know, for
[11:59]someone who is not trained as an nurse or a doctor in the medical field, like, what have you come
[12:05]away with? Like, are you just like ready to throw your arms around every nurse you meet and give
[12:09]them a huge hug? Like, what is it like for you? Yes. I mean, and it sort of is even bigger than that
[12:16]because when you're talking about these particular women, the nurses who went to Vietnam,
[12:22]you're talking about women, as you know, from reading the book, who are, you know, 2019, 2021,
[12:29]in 1965, just following the conformity of the 50s and the expectation that there's one course
[12:37]for women, right? But also many of them, the children of proud World War II veterans,
[12:46]and so they had, you know, grown up on stories of military service in their family and,
[12:54]and so, you know, these young nurses with no training go off into war thinking that it will be one
[13:01]way, of course, and then finding that that war is not something, you know, easily contained and
[13:08]like my heroine, many of these women are out in the jungle, they're in mass units, they're in combat
[13:14]units, and sort of, and then seeing so how after they get all that experience and all,
[13:22]and they become these exceptional nurses, they come back home to a country that doesn't welcome them,
[13:28]and to a male-driven medical system that doesn't value their new experience. And so it kind of
[13:37]feels like it's not just about nursing, it's about, it's about women, and it's about how we are
[13:44]treated in the larger context, and so that was particularly interesting to see. And then I was so,
[13:54]I mean, it's a longer story, but I was so honored to be able to go to Washington, D.C. this year
[14:02]for the 30th anniversary of the Women's Vietnam War Memorial, and I met a lot of these nurses,
[14:09]and what a remarkable group of women and the things that they have accomplished upon coming home,
[14:17]even with dealing with all of the psychological trauma and aftermath of war was so amazing,
[14:25]and I'm just really excited, I guess, for this book to come out and for people to be more aware
[14:35]of their service and to include them and to thank them. Every time I look at anything that's
[14:41]going on for Veterans Day, year after year after year, it's the men, the men, the men, and the men,
[14:49]and I think it's just time that we start remembering the hundreds of thousands of female
[14:57]Veterans as well. Yeah, and how, I mean, they've played such a critical role that they could not
[15:04]have, the doctors could not have done all of the things it would have been impossible, right? And
[15:11]the fact that, like you said, when they came back, their service didn't translate. They had to go
[15:16]get re-certified or certified to begin. I mean, that blew my mind. It was shocking, wasn't it?
[15:22]Yeah. So unfair. And then you also involve love and flirtation and devastation and devastation
[15:32]and loss and longing and all of those great human feelings that connect in a romantic way,
[15:41]so to speak, tell me about that and the intensity. It's almost like when you're, I don't know,
[15:47]finishing a big project at work or school or something, and you're in it with someone,
[15:51]you know, it's like the proximity and intensity of the experience makes you that much closer,
[15:57]you know, the way that your characters became in the book. Well, I think that's sort of too
[16:02]prong. I would argue that in a way, the great love story of this book is the three women who
[16:10]become best of friends in the middle of all of this. And I mean, this really is a book that has
[16:17]sort of friendship as the beating heart of it, even though it's about so much more. But my main
[16:23]character, Frankie, she becomes friends with, you know, Barb and Ethel over in Vietnam.
[16:29]And that's a friendship that buoys and sustains Frankie for really the entirety of the book.
[16:36]More than her parents, she's lost her brother. And so that is sort of the fundamental relationship
[16:44]that keeps her going and picks her up and pushes her on the straight narrow. But of course,
[16:50]there's also, there's multiple, Frankie has multiple love stories in this book. And it was always
[16:59]really interesting to me as the writer to sort of throw out their which of these is real.
[17:06]Which do you think is the real love story? Who loves her the way she deserves to love?
[17:10]And does she, is she a good partner for some of these people? Because there are times when,
[17:18]you know, Frankie is dealing with the aftermath of war and it's actually breaking her down because
[17:25]she's trying to do what society and her parents are telling her, which is forget about this and
[17:32]just go on, you know, you'll be fine. And she finds that she can't quite be fine. And so that
[17:40]really impacts, you know, she, she falls in love with a doctor at the, at her first, where she's
[17:48]first stationed and he's married. And then she falls in love with another guy who has issues of his
[17:57]own. And so she just like goes through trying to, I think, prove that, that she is
[18:05]is loveable that she can love. And I think she is really looking for what we're all looking for,
[18:12]which is that deep connection. And she was raised to believe in motherhood and children and thinking
[18:19]that that's the, the path her life should be. Wow. I mean, when you spend a day writing and you're
[18:25]in one of these intense moments, pre war, post war, I mean, how do you, I'm always fascinated
[18:32]like how you toggle between that and like, you know, getting up to make coffee or something.
[18:40]Oh, real life, you mean, yeah, real life. Well, you know, for me, and you must be the same way.
[18:48]I mean, for me, writing is a job. I mean, this is my career. This is what I do. So it's like
[18:56]everything else. It's about scheduling. It's about to the extent that you can, you maintain that
[19:02]schedule. And when you're in your work time, you work. And, you know, so I'm not one I don't
[19:11]lie to bunch of candles. I don't listen to a lot of music. I, you know, I go and I write,
[19:15]which is by the way, I write long hand on yellow legal pads. So wherever I am, I can write.
[19:22]And what I tend to do in terms of the intensity and how it actually happens,
[19:30]I write really, really long involved scenes. So like any one of these scenes that you could pick in
[19:37]the hospital or, you know, later on, anything that's really intense, a lost moment, it probably
[19:45]started out as a 35 page scene that had everything in it. And then I slowly pair away every
[19:53]sentence that you don't need. I try, I still am somewhat repetitive, but I try not to be. I try to
[20:00]get rid of that, because I think that, for me, intensity comes from sharp, clear, concrete
[20:14]specific moments. So I don't have as many of those in a work as I can.
[20:19]I love that. Well, the time now, and you don't have to really answer this, but we are
[20:25]divided in a way, perhaps the most like this period of time in your book, then has
[20:31]happened since. And it's almost encouraging that. I know that that was a phase. Everything
[20:39]that happens, people are like, oh no, well, that happened in the 70s. I'm like, no,
[20:43]don't worry, that happened in the 40s, and then this happened. So this current environment
[20:49]of such bifurcation and hostility between groups and all of that, do you have a different
[20:54]sort of outlook on it, having recently been living in your head in this period of time
[20:59]again?
[21:00]You know, I guess my biggest takeaway is the sadness and the sorrow I feel that we don't
[21:09]learn. And that history continues to teach us the same lessons. I had this same sense when
[21:19]I was writing the Nightingale, you know, World War II felt, you know, distant memory.
[21:26]And then all of a sudden, things in the world made me think, you know, this isn't so far
[21:32]away anymore. And we need to sort of pay attention. And that's what I mean about, hopefully
[21:40]this combination of something can create both awareness and empathy. Because where
[21:48]we've gotten now, and I do think this is very close to where we were in the 60s between,
[21:55]you know, the factions and people just stop listening to each other. The difference is now,
[22:03]I think all of that is on steroids because the media has changed and the trust in the media
[22:11]has changed. And social media is in many ways tearing us apart and marginalizing us into,
[22:21]you know, smaller, smaller groups. So I guess my hope is that we as humans have always figured
[22:30]out a way to come back from this in some way. And hopefully, you know, we are on the brink of
[22:39]that because we're in trouble. So which time period are you going to go to next? Where are you
[22:48]going to take us? Where where can I prepare to go in what two years or something? We've got an
[22:52]idea raise your hand because I don't know, you know, the women turns out to have been such a
[23:00]meaningful book for me. And something that I'm so proud of for a lot of the reasons that we're
[23:06]talking about mostly because I just think it speaks to so many things that are happening today
[23:14]that I think need to change on a lot of levels. And I'm speaking to a crowd, especially,
[23:21]you know, the Vietnam veterans and their families who we are losing. You know, when I went to Vietnam,
[23:28]a lot of these nurses and a lot of the Vietnam era vets are dying. You know, there's Agent Orange,
[23:35]there's Cancer, there's Suicide, you know, there's all of the things that go along with the trauma
[23:41]that comes from having been to war, which was then compounded by a society that did not value
[23:48]that service, right? And so, so when you take all that on and you, you know, you write a book
[23:56]that you feel really kind of sticks the landing, which is, you know, not common, I don't think,
[24:03]to write a book that feels like at least 90% what you wanted it to be. It's hard to find something,
[24:11]you know, I'm like everybody else. Well, okay, the next book needs to be better. And I can't
[24:16]really figure out at the moment how to do that. So maybe I'll go back to fantasy or
[24:22]maybe you need to write a memoir. Well, you've done that. How is it?
[24:28]I mean, I found it much easier than writing fiction. Okay, I mean, it happens. So fiction
[24:34]it's endless possibilities. This could happen. That could happen. I don't know. I can't make up my mind.
[24:39]I even write this book. Should I write that book? No, it's like this is my life. This is what I
[24:43]have to choose from. Hey, well, that's a good idea. You're right. Okay, I'll think about that.
[24:48]Yeah, give it a try. You know, it's experiment. Okay, last thing, advice for aspiring authors,
[24:55]and I know you said some earlier in our conversation, but you know, I think we are living in such
[25:00]a great time for new voices. And I think we are open in a way to debut authors and formerly
[25:09]marginalized stories and stories from women in a way that we haven't been in a long time.
[25:15]I think there are a lot of avenues for publication now. Like you, you know, there's and there's
[25:23]all kinds of, you know, there aren't just the big five. There's all kinds of ways to get your
[25:28]story out there. So given that, I think sometimes it's really easy to think, well, anything can
[25:35]be published. And the bottom line is that if this is what you want to do, then begin it. I mean,
[25:43]begin writing and and set a routine and start studying and write all day every day and commit
[25:50]to it and understand when you go in that it may be years before, you know, it pays off. But even
[26:01]if nothing ever happens, the journey of writing itself is so cathartic and and heart expanding
[26:11]that it is, it's a wonderful pursuit and whether it's a journal, a memoir, fiction, the kids book,
[26:18]whatever. If you dream it, begin it. Have it. See, and you leave us on this inspiring note.
[26:26]You wrap it up. Perfect. Well done. Well, listen, I'm really excited for you. I mean,
[26:34]sticking the landing. That's such a great way to think about, you know, again, a visual,
[26:38]right? Look at that. Like, can we know exactly what you mean? You know, it's immersive and emotional
[26:44]and you know, that's why I felt like it's so sweeping. How could it only be, you know, feel like
[26:50]it's like an impossible feat to do in just a couple years. So anyway, congratulations. Really
[26:55]excited for you and for all the success to come and all of that. Thank you so much. This is my first
[27:01]real conversation about the women. So I'm excited and thanks for everything that you do for me and
[27:08]for all writers and good luck to you as well. Thank you. Thank you. All right, bye guys. Thank you.
[27:18]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[27:23]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for
[27:28]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom
[27:33]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for the sound editing
[27:38]and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.