Elyssa Maxx Goodman, GLITTER AND CONCRETE: A Cultural History of Drag in New York City
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[0:27]Go to Zivi Owens.com to learn more and follow me on Instagram at Zivi Owens.
[0:32]Alyssa Goodman is the author of Glitter and Concrete, a cultural history of drag in New York City.
[0:39]Alyssa is a writer and photographer specializing in arts and culture.
[0:42]Her work has been published in Vogue, T. The New York Times Style Magazine, Vanity Fair,
[0:46]and others online and in print. Alyssa has also written about LGBTQ plus history and culture
[0:52]for Conde Nast's them, where she was the site's drag, history, and queer women's history
[0:58]she has been a freelance writer for 19 years, and in love with drag for 28 years since the age
[1:03]of seven. Welcome, Alyssa. I'm very excited to talk to you today about Glitter and Concrete,
[1:08]a cultural history of drag in New York City.
[1:12]Thank you. Thank you. I'm very glad to be here. I appreciate you having me.
[1:16]Of course. So the first time we met, you had invited me to your Miss Manhattan series,
[1:23]and I remember going down into the bottom of the bar wherever you had it and when
[1:27]we all read, as they said about our grandmothers or whatever, and you gave me this opportunity to talk
[1:33]and speak and present an essay out loud, which I don't think I've ever really done before,
[1:38]accepted a summer program or whatever, and certainly not New York City. So anyway, thank you for that.
[1:43]I just have to say, oh, that's very kind. I had no idea that was your first time doing that.
[1:48]It's very sweet, and I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. Thank you for thinking of me. This was
[1:54]so what, 2018, 17, 17, 17. Anyway, okay, so Glitter and Concrete, why don't you tell listeners,
[2:01]why did you decide to write a history of drag in New York City? Sure. Well, the idea came to me
[2:07]after the passing of the very famous New York drag queen, flawless Sabrina, and she passed away
[2:13]in November, 2017, and I started to wonder, you know, for a drag artist she had been covered
[2:20]extensively, but that's still for a drag artist. It's not the same attention that someone like,
[2:25]I don't know, like Brad Pitt might get certainly, and I didn't want her stories to disappear,
[2:30]and I didn't want anyone else's stories to disappear, and my wheels kind of started to turn,
[2:36]and then I realized that a book like this hadn't been written, and the drag that comes out of
[2:40]New York is extremely influential, and there are a lot of cities across the US with really
[2:45]influential drag scenes as well, but New York has always been my muse, and this is the city where
[2:52]I live and I love, and I wanted to honor its past and to give an explanation of how we arrived
[3:01]at the cultural moment that drag occupies now. And what did you find that you were surprised about?
[3:07]Like, how much did you know going into it versus what came out of it? I mean, there's so much,
[3:11]right? There's so much history from Ronald Reagan, so I mean, you have like the void smile of
[3:17]history in here. What were you expecting or hoping and what did you find and how did it,
[3:21]or did you just want to get it out on paper? And, you know, what surprises were there? That
[3:25]was like 50 questions, so we could just get into it in the rest of the time. So I actually,
[3:30]I have a long standing relationship with drag drag has been a part of my life for almost 30 years.
[3:35]I saw the film too long for the things for everything Julie knew more when I was about 7 years old,
[3:40]and it's just kind of been a part of my life since then. My mother had a similar relationship
[3:45]to drag where she wasn't 7, but I think she was, she was working as an interior designer when
[3:50]she met a person who taught her how to do her makeup, and this person was a man named Frank
[3:55]Hill, and Frank was also an in-market impersonator. So it's a, right about this in the book too,
[4:00]it's very much like an apple tree situation, but it was something that I loved and was curious
[4:06]about, and so in the course of my life had like picked up these, these, you know, different
[4:11]tales of these different kinds of places, and these different people. So there was an extent,
[4:17]there was a history that I was very much aware of, and then there were things that I had no
[4:22]idea about that I also learned in the process that I was delighted to, to be able to share,
[4:28]and I think writing this book was, was very much a process of making myself a student
[4:33]of this art form, you know, or I should say continuing to make myself a student of this art form,
[4:38]and one of the things that was so delightful to me to learn was drag has almost a,
[4:44]call it maybe like a forest gum quality to it in terms of its relationship to not just New York
[4:52]history, but and queer culture, but American history. And, you know, something I say often now
[4:57]is drag history is New York history is American history, right? And to see all these different ways
[5:03]that it influenced culture and allowed not just, you know, the drag that we have now to exist,
[5:11]but allowed queer culture to keep pushing forward and culture in general to keep pushing forward.
[5:17]It's been wonderful to be able to see it and to share it.
[5:21]So if you had to pick let's say three things that people should know about drag history or
[5:27]contemporary relations or anything, what would those, what are the most important things that
[5:33]people should know? Well, first I would say the most important thing for people to know
[5:37]is that drag is an art form in the same way that film or photography or literature,
[5:42]and what's interesting about drag is that it brings all of these art forms together
[5:47]and it's an art form. This is will be the second thing. It's an art form that's thousands
[5:51]of years old. And I think another important thing and actually Ben Delacrim talked about this
[5:56]in the Daily Show last year, which I thought was really wonderful is like in the same way that
[6:01]there are different ratings for different kinds of movies, there's a similar experience for drag
[6:07]as there are for books, as there are for photography, as there are for again, any art form.
[6:12]But I would say the other important thing is that it's not given all of those things,
[6:19]it's not an art form to be discounted. And it has this rich history that's worth knowing about
[6:25]in the same way that cinema history or literary history or any of the other genres of art
[6:31]that we talk about regularly art. So how did you become an author, historian, moderator of a
[6:39]speaking series? Like tell me about where you came from and how you got here. I'm himself Florida
[6:45]originally and I moved to New York in July 2010. So almost I think it's now oh my goodness, it's
[6:53]13 and a half years. So she celebrated her partner Mitzvah last July. And writing has been a part of
[7:05]my life. I think when I, gosh, I was in fourth grade and I had a teacher named Mrs. Ludwig,
[7:10]Susan Ludwig, who I'm still in touch with. And she said to my mother, you know, she really has
[7:16]skill in this area you should encourage her. And so she did. And I did. And here I am, you know,
[7:24]and I've been a journalist. I've been a freelance journalist since I'm 15 years old, 15 or 16 years old.
[7:31]And so I was writing for the local newspaper in South Florida. And I continued writing for them
[7:38]throughout college. I founded a magazine when I was at college that ran I think until the pandemic.
[7:43]So it ran for something like what we think over a decade. And it was always I wanted to be a
[7:49]magazine writer is what I really wanted. And you know, I got to New York and I had a job. I was
[7:57]the social media. What did she call me? The director of social media for media recruiting firm,
[8:02]which was this office above Carnegie deli that always smelled like pastrami. And I was
[8:07]working on an assistant. And I got laid off. And I had to figure out a way to pay my rent. And I just,
[8:15]I was kind of all hands on deck. I was doing social media for a long time. And then I, I have been
[8:20]a full-time writer and photographer freelance since 2014. So that part is celebrating its 10th
[8:29]anniversary this year. But overall, yeah, it's, you know, it's been a running theme in my life. And
[8:37]in that time, I specialize in arts and culture as a journalist. And I started writing about
[8:43]professionally in November 2011. And what was wild is that like, at that time, I just,
[8:50]there wouldn't have been a lot of outlets for me to do that. But this one particular website had
[8:56]like an interesting bent where they wanted stories of, of all different kinds. And I pitched a
[9:02]couple of drag stories to them that they accepted. But I mean, it wouldn't be until a few years
[9:08]later when I was writing about drag consistently. And there were people who were, who were reaching
[9:14]out to me to do that and to do all these different things. And this entire time I've been writing
[9:19]about arts and culture for places like Bogue and T, the New York Times style magazine, Vanity Fair,
[9:24]and all the lots of different places. So I have sort of cobbled together this life. And drag was
[9:33]always something I wanted to be a larger part of it. You know, I would, to be able to write
[9:39]about drag with consistency. And then, you know, this idea arrived. And then I had a publisher and I
[9:48]had a book and I had, you know, so here we are. And I continue to write about drag. I continue to
[9:53]write about arts and culture like writing in photography are my bread and butter. So I'm very happy
[10:00]to be able to do the things I love for a living.
[10:02]I think I usually say is, you know,
[10:04]I didn't want work to be my life.
[10:06]I wanted my life to be my work.
[10:07]I wanted to get paid to do the things
[10:10]that I was going to go do anyway, you know.
[10:13]And I do too.
[10:17]I'm like, you know, I feel like if you can figure out a way
[10:20]to make your hobby into your job.
[10:22]I mean, everyone always says that, but I'm like,
[10:24]no, no, it's not really that easy.
[10:25]But I'm just going to do this book's podcast on the side
[10:28]and like, wow, you know, I can have it.
[10:33]Yeah, I think it's true when you realize the things
[10:38]you, when you're so clear about what you love,
[10:40]it's easier for you to translate that to other things.
[10:43]But anyway, so would you do another book?
[10:46]And if so, what would it be about?
[10:48]Or are you maybe already writing one?
[10:50]I would do another book.
[10:53]I do really like writing about queer culture,
[10:56]because those are the stories that don't get told.
[10:58]And there are so many that I'm interested
[11:02]in unraveling from the past.
[11:04]And I think something that happened when I was working
[11:06]on this book, especially, you know,
[11:08]was during the pandemic.
[11:09]I was watching the criterion collection a lot that night,
[11:11]you know, criterion channel, I should say.
[11:14]And I watched this film Shane High Express
[11:16]with Marlena Dietrich.
[11:18]And she comes into this train.
[11:20]And she's just like black silk and Maribou and cheekbones
[11:24]and light.
[11:25]And I was just like, how do I do this for a living?
[11:28]Like, how do I watch these movies for a living?
[11:30]And I kind of just like kept playing around
[11:32]with these different ideas of what that could be.
[11:37]And you know, writing about glamorous is a little too broad,
[11:40]you know, and wanting to narrow that down.
[11:42]But I'm interested in writing about queer contributions
[11:45]to glamorous specifically.
[11:46]And the people who were the image architects,
[11:50]and folkit that credit for developing these not just images,
[11:55]but visuals, stylists, photographers, interior designers
[12:00]that set the standard for the visual culture that we have now.
[12:04]I love that term image architects.
[12:06]Did you make that up or is that a thing?
[12:08]I had read it somewhere else, but I like it.
[12:10]OK.
[12:11]Well, you are going to be the one to bring it into the mainstream.
[12:15]It's just such a great way to describe that.
[12:17]And it does.
[12:18]Sometimes, you know, it takes a village, right?
[12:20]So that's amazing.
[12:22]You, in your acknowledgement, sank like 8 million people
[12:25]for other help on the bug.
[12:26]Tell me what everyone did that was helpful.
[12:28]Did you have a lot of people read drafts?
[12:30]Did you, was it research related?
[12:32]And, you know, to whom do you credit the success of the book?
[12:38]Well, the book was always for the drag artists who lived these
[12:44]lives.
[12:45]And that was my biggest, that was the biggest thing
[12:49]I wanted was to be able to honor them.
[12:51]And the lives that they lived, the people who are here
[12:53]and the people who aren't here anymore.
[12:56]Because, you know, especially with the way that drag is talked
[12:58]about in our current culture, it doesn't get the respect
[13:00]or deserves even now.
[13:02]But in the lives of the people who are covered in this book,
[13:06]it was even less so.
[13:08]You know, and wanting to make sure that people knew about them
[13:12]and that they were household names in their own way.
[13:16]You know, but the people I think in the acknowledgement,
[13:18]so I did for the book, I did think it was 93 interviews
[13:24]with 86 people or something like that.
[13:25]Oh my gosh.
[13:26]And some of those people were drag artists.
[13:28]Some of those people were historians.
[13:29]Some of those people were people who were hanging out in the scenes.
[13:33]Some of those people were, you know, artists or involved in it
[13:37]somehow.
[13:38]But I wanted to be able to put together from everyone's
[13:43]recollections these visuals of this time and these experiences
[13:48]is of what it was like to be there at this time.
[13:50]What did it smell like?
[13:51]What did it feel like?
[13:52]What did it look like?
[13:53]Things like that.
[13:54]And so that's the large breadth of people.
[13:59]And then there's also the historians who sold
[14:01]who shoulders that I stand on, who helped me with the book,
[14:05]who did this great work of covering queer history before I did.
[14:09]There are, you know, my friends and family
[14:12]who were really supportive throughout is, I mean,
[14:14]the book took me five and a half years, you know?
[14:16]And I just, it's the listen to me talk about it,
[14:19]the entire time, you have to thank them.
[14:23]And, you know, of course, the editorial staff and my agent
[14:27]and the person who was originally my agent,
[14:29]who put me in touch with the person who's
[14:31]agent now after he left the industry,
[14:33]people who, you know, did research for me or for the transcription
[14:38]or for all these different, you know,
[14:39]I wanted to make sure that everyone got credit.
[14:42]And that's something that's really important to me
[14:45]as a writer, which, you know, you may have noticed
[14:47]that, like, the note section is also incredibly meticulous.
[14:51]I wanted to acknowledge where everything came from
[14:54]and who are the people.
[14:56]And if people wanted to go find these things themselves
[15:00]and read more about it was also something
[15:02]that was really important to me.
[15:03]Like, I didn't want to be kind of gatekeeping
[15:05]about my sources and stuff like that
[15:07]because that's not the nature of the form itself, you know?
[15:11]And I only want people to learn more.
[15:13]And if the book inspires them to do that,
[15:15]I want them to have the resources to be able to do that.
[15:17]Did anyone drag through you?
[15:20]Like, did you have like an amazing launch party
[15:22]or anything where there any fabulous parties for this book?
[15:25]My book party was, I think, the best party I've ever thrown.
[15:29]And it has since evolved into a show
[15:31]that we have gotten again.
[15:34]So my book party was held at a venue
[15:37]that's now called Baker Falls,
[15:38]but is the original site of the Pyramid Club.
[15:41]And what was great about this was that, you know,
[15:43]I had really wanted to do my book party at the Legacy Drag
[15:47]venue and I wanted it to be a Pyramid Club
[15:50]because that was always, I had been like once or twice
[15:54]when it was open, but it's spirit was something
[15:57]that I was always very much attached to.
[16:00]But then it closed and there was, I read, you know,
[16:02]this article about this other place that was opening up
[16:05]and I was like, all right, well, I'll keep an eye on it.
[16:07]You know, I'll see like kind of what's going on.
[16:09]And they didn't have a website for the longest time.
[16:12]And then they put one up on their Instagram
[16:15]and the first thing it said on the website
[16:17]was where the former home of Dragon Age Village.
[16:19]And I was like, oh, and I slid into their DM.
[16:25]So I was like, hey, this is my book.
[16:28]Do you want?
[16:29]And so they very generously let me use this base.
[16:32]And it was the first drag event at this new venue.
[16:35]And, you know, the owner is very much a person
[16:37]who like acknowledges and loves and respects
[16:39]the drag history of this base and of the East Village.
[16:43]There's a portrait hanging behind the bar
[16:45]of a very influential pyramid club, a creative person.
[16:50]And, you know, just gets it.
[16:53]I was the first drag show that they had in the new space
[16:57]because it opened, I think, like maybe in July or August.
[17:00]Like it was very, very new.
[17:02]And the structure of the launch party
[17:04]that I had been dreaming of was that I would have
[17:09]hired drag artists to interpret a section of the book.
[17:12]And then as performance, and then I would read the sections
[17:16]that they chose and then they would perform.
[17:19]So that's what we did.
[17:20]And then we all had a conversation at the end.
[17:22]So they could talk about their work
[17:24]and the role that drag history plays in their lives
[17:27]because, you know, history is only about the past.
[17:29]It's about what we create now.
[17:31]And so we've been doing that.
[17:33]We've done it now one other time at the Center for Brooklyn
[17:36]History as the glitter and concrete show.
[17:39]And then, you know, I cut down the stuff about like,
[17:42]you know, thanking my agent.
[17:44]And I'm like, you know, standard book party stuff.
[17:47]And we made it into a show, my producing partner Jupiter
[17:51]and I made it into a show.
[17:52]And so we're hopefully going to be producing it
[17:56]at some other venues in the future.
[17:58]That is so cool.
[18:00]Thank you.
[18:00]So cool.
[18:02]Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[18:04]Yes.
[18:05]You have to write, I think, is the biggest one,
[18:07]which it seems, it seems pretty standard
[18:10]but it is the biggest part of being a writer of any kind.
[18:13]And you have to read.
[18:15]And you have to counter your own fear with your own desire.
[18:20]And you have to do it constantly.
[18:22]And you have to understand that you're going to have bad days.
[18:25]But we all have them.
[18:26]And every book that you've ever seen is author had a bad day
[18:30]where like they couldn't get out of sentence.
[18:33]And that's okay.
[18:34]And it's part of the process.
[18:36]And what you have to keep going the next day.
[18:40]And it is very much, I would say, you know,
[18:43]in some ways it's muscle memory of training yourself to,
[18:46]okay, this is, and you set goals for yourself.
[18:49]You know, that was something that I did with this book.
[18:51]I was just like, thousand words a day was always the goal.
[18:54]Some days I got 1,200 and some days I got three,
[18:58]you know, like it's, but it's about having the goal.
[19:01]And then just saying, that's great.
[19:04]I got it or I'll do better tomorrow.
[19:07]And that's how you keep going, you know,
[19:10]a bad day isn't a bad life and isn't a bad book.
[19:13]And your story's matter of that bad day.
[19:17]It's not a bad life, it's not a bad book.
[19:19]Yeah, that's good, that could go on a pillow right there.
[19:23]Thank you for that.
[19:23]Oh my gosh.
[19:26]All right, well, let's say congratulations
[19:28]on glitter and concrete, such an accomplishment,
[19:31]so much research, so much time spent
[19:34]and such a beautiful package to boot.
[19:36]So there you go.
[19:37]So thank you.
[19:39]Congratulations.
[19:40]I found out yesterday and I am allowed to say it.
[19:42]Oh, Tommy, the book has been named a stone mall on her book.
[19:45]Oh, yeah.
[19:47]Yay.
[19:48]So there will be a sticker on it soon that says,
[19:51]it's a stone mall on her book.
[19:52]How cool is that?
[19:54]It's good for you.
[19:55]That is just so cool.
[19:56]That's amazing.
[19:57]I appreciate it.
[19:58]Yeah, it's, you know, I just.
[20:00]I always wanted people to know the stories
[20:02]and anything that gets it out there
[20:04]to the people that need it is,
[20:07]is something that makes me very happy.
[20:09]Amazing, wonderful advocacy and all the rest.
[20:12]Okay, congratulations.
[20:15]Thank you so much, thank you for having me.
[20:16]And of course, all of your successes as well.
[20:19]Thank you.
[20:20]All thanks to mine this Manhattan basement bar performance.
[20:24]That was kick the whole thing off.
[20:26]Well, you know, we're celebrating 10 years
[20:28]and April, you should come back.
[20:29]Okay, Donna.
[20:32]Okay, thanks.
[20:33]Bye, listen.
[20:34]Good one.
[20:36]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[20:39]to Read Books.
[20:40]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[20:42]at Zebioans and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[20:45]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[20:47]and sign up for my virtual book club
[20:49]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[20:52]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[20:53]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[20:56]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[20:57]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.