Molly Roden Winter, MORE: A Memoir of Open Marriage
[0:04]Welcome to Moms Don't Have Time to Be Books with Zippy.
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[0:09]I am an author, my latest is blank, pub date march first and novel.
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[0:27]Go to Zippy Owens.com to learn more and follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens.
[0:32]Molly Roddenwinter is the author of more, a memoir of open marriage.
[0:38]Molly was raised in Evanston, Illinois, and lives in Park Slope, Brooklyn, with her husband,
[0:43]and two part-time roommates, also known as her sons.
[0:46]Her personal essays have appeared in New York magazine, Motherwell, and Pangerous.
[0:51]She is half of the guitar playing songwriting duo House of Mirth.
[0:55]Welcome, Molly.
[0:56]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss more
[1:00]and memoir of open marriage.
[1:03]Thank you for having me.
[1:04]It's my pleasure.
[1:05]I have to say, I was reading this.
[1:07]You know, I could not put this book down, and I was reading it like one Sunday.
[1:10]My husband's like watching all this football, and he looked over like kind of annoyed.
[1:14]He's like, oh yeah, how's that book?
[1:18]A lot of conversations, I think are going to start as a result of this book,
[1:23]and conversations go a long way, I have to say.
[1:26]I felt like, um, then this weekend I showed him.
[1:29]I was like, remember when I was just reading this book,
[1:32]now look, it's in the New York Times.
[1:34]Like, see, it's like a big deal of this book.
[1:35]I'm not just like looking for an open marriage.
[1:38]I mean, if I was, that would be fine.
[1:40]No judgment.
[1:41]I'm just saying I don't happen to be looking for that.
[1:43]No, but anyway.
[1:44]So he was like, oh, look at that.
[1:46]I'm glad he said that because I also, it's really important to me that I convey
[1:51]to folks that I am not proselytizing.
[1:54]I don't think all we need in this world is if everybody were polyamorous.
[1:58]I mean, that is not my message here.
[2:00]And so I'm glad that you felt like it spoke to you
[2:04]even without being necessarily interested in non-monogamy.
[2:08]Well, there's so much in your story simply about motherhood and desire
[2:15]and China married those two aspects of yourself, keeping marriage.
[2:20]Like, how do we preserve our marriages and ourselves?
[2:24]And our kids like, it's such a mishmosh.
[2:26]And so even though you have opted for this path, right, that not everybody
[2:32]opts for, the way and the decision-making and the day-to-day is so familiar
[2:37]that I feel like so many people will feel themselves in this story.
[2:40]Yeah, that's my hope.
[2:42]And it's true.
[2:42]I think one of the biggest things I've learned on this path is
[2:47]that there are disparate parts of myself.
[2:49]Sometimes I describe it as, you know, there's like this mom suit
[2:54]that we're supposed to put on as if it's one-size-fits-all.
[2:58]And you find yourself flopping off an arm or, you know, trying to hold in your gut
[3:05]because it doesn't quite fit.
[3:07]It's not really being able to breathe.
[3:09]And I'm just trying to kind of challenge this idea that we have to look and act
[3:16]in a very particular way in order to be a good mother.
[3:21]I don't think that's true.
[3:22]I mean, truth be told, if we weren't like having sex, we wouldn't have the kids to begin with,
[3:27]right?
[3:28]Like, it reminds me of when my mother was a teacher also.
[3:32]I was a teacher for about 15 years, too.
[3:34]And I'm a teacher for at least five of the years that I'm talking about.
[3:38]And more, my mother didn't get any days off for having a baby.
[3:44]This was, you know, I was born in 1972, my sister in 69.
[3:49]She was able to get a few days paid because she had the flu when she delivered me.
[3:56]But otherwise, there were no.
[3:58]And this is for a school, you know?
[4:00]And I always think of these things that we pretend like teachers matter and mother's matter,
[4:06]but we don't give any support.
[4:08]So, yeah, we're mothers because we have had sex.
[4:12]As my son said, when he first found out how babies were made, when he was about six or seven,
[4:16]he said, wait a minute, you did that.
[4:19]And I was like, yeah, why you so?
[4:24]It's like, yeah, I did it twice.
[4:26]We have very different conversations.
[4:29]At the time, I would only confess to twice.
[4:32]I know.
[4:33]When I told my younger kids, like not so, not so long ago.
[4:37]And they were like, wait, are you going to be doing that when we come into your room?
[4:41]I'm like, no, you've never seen that happen, you know?
[4:43]Anyway, so then like they'll face time me when they're at their dads.
[4:46]And like my little guy, he's like, he's nine now.
[4:49]But he would call and be like, are you having sex?
[4:52]And I'm like, no, I'm not having sex.
[4:55]It's fine.
[4:56]We could just talk.
[4:58]But I think that's great.
[5:00]I think it's great even that they know that like, these aren't virgin births.
[5:05]You know what I mean?
[5:07]We are actually whole people with bodies.
[5:11]Yeah.
[5:12]And I, you know, now that my children are adults, they have talked to me about
[5:17]some of the questions and concerns that have come up with, you know, sexuality and sex.
[5:23]And I think it's largely because they know I'm not a pearl clutcher.
[5:27]You know, they know I'm not going to freak out about having sex.
[5:32]I know it's normal.
[5:33]I know it's healthy.
[5:35]And I know there are healthier ways to do it than a lot of the things I was doing.
[5:41]I feel like I kind of went through my adolescence in my 40s because I didn't really
[5:46]have very rebellious teen years.
[5:48]So I'd much rather have my kids talk to me about things than to walk around feeling like they
[5:55]have to be ashamed of whatever is they're doing and hide the truth of their,
[6:00]you know, humanity from me.
[6:01]Well, your love for your kids comes through so strongly.
[6:05]I mean, that scene when you're leaning against the wall with the suitcase between your legs
[6:09]and itching yourself and your son is like, what?
[6:12]You're in an open marriage.
[6:13]We found dad.
[6:14]I know, okay.
[6:14]Give it and then when you realized that he was like, he didn't even, it didn't even
[6:18]occur to him that you would also be like pursuing other partners.
[6:23]Oh my gosh.
[6:24]And you were like, what do I tell him?
[6:26]And you're adorable supportive husband who's like, it's okay.
[6:29]Like, you want me to have a lot.
[6:31]Oh my gosh, that scene.
[6:32]Wait, how old are your kids now?
[6:33]I feel like they're frozen in time in this book.
[6:35]Right.
[6:36]Almost 22 and 19.
[6:39]And are they, how do they feel about the book?
[6:41]They're very supportive of me.
[6:44]My oldest Reddit, my youngest did not.
[6:47]He's away at college right now my youngest.
[6:49]And he was very cute.
[6:51]He said, mom, I have to tell you something.
[6:53]He's like, don't be mad.
[6:55]I checked the campus bookstore and they don't have your book and I'm really happy about it.
[6:59]And I was like, I am not mad.
[7:03]And I am actually really happy that I was like, I would be shocked if it were at the campus.
[7:07]I mean, maybe not shocked, but you're not actually the target market honey.
[7:13]Although I'm annoyed on your behalf that it's not, I mean, you have a connection to that school.
[7:16]You should be represented.
[7:18]That's all right.
[7:18]No, I'm actually, I'm trying to steer clear of that whole city.
[7:22]Well, the dust settles.
[7:24]I want, it's something that's also very important to me with my children that their path is
[7:29]their path and my path is mine.
[7:31]And that's something that comes up in the book with my mother's journey in my own.
[7:35]I love your mother's journey.
[7:37]Oh my God.
[7:38]How is your mom?
[7:39]She's doing well, thanks.
[7:40]Yeah, she's in a wheelchair now permanently, but I shouldn't say permanently.
[7:47]She can get herself up and down.
[7:49]And actually the wheelchair has given her a lot more independence.
[7:52]She's able to, you know, get herself places and is not falling over, which was the main problem
[7:59]falling and breaking things.
[8:01]So she's doing great.
[8:02]My parents are actually having a pretty good time with the book, my hometown paper
[8:06]in Evanston, Illinois is running a review today.
[8:11]Hi, our tomorrow.
[8:12]I'm going back to Chicago for a reading on Wednesday, but I'm doing some signing set up
[8:17]bookstore in Evanston and they're excited.
[8:19]It's really sweet how everybody's been.
[8:22]You know, they were nervous.
[8:23]They sometimes still get nervous.
[8:25]It's a lot, but it's also, they believe the same things I believe.
[8:30]My values are very much in line with theirs about what this book really is about.
[8:35]Maybe we should back up.
[8:37]I was so excited to jump in and talk to you about somebody, the parts of this book,
[8:41]but maybe we should describe the book for people who are like,
[8:44]what are they talking about?
[8:45]What are we talking about?
[8:47]Oh my gosh, okay.
[8:50]So the book pretty much tells the story of the first 10 years of my open marriage.
[8:56]So I got married in 1999.
[8:59]I had had very few partners.
[9:01]I was, you know, very young for high school.
[9:06]I went to college at 16.
[9:08]I had the same boyfriend for four and a half years.
[9:11]And then when we broke up, the first person I started dating was my husband.
[9:15]That was not my plan, but I just fell for him, right?
[9:18]And he had said to me before we got engaged that if you want to sleep with someone else,
[9:24]you can.
[9:25]And he actually predicted that I would want to.
[9:27]He thought like, he's a little, all these five years older.
[9:29]He had been dating a lot.
[9:30]He was living in New York, living the single life throughout his 20.
[9:36]And the fact that I was like, I was kind of, you know, wide-eyed.
[9:40]And he said, I think you're going to want to sleep with someone else eventually.
[9:44]and that's okay.
[9:45]Just you have to tell me, you know, and he's a little turned on by that.
[9:48]There's a little for a son for him, but I don't feel the same way.
[9:51]I have no, you know, I do not get turned on by the idea of him with another person,
[9:57]even now, but that idea was planted.
[10:00]And I thought, oh no, I'm never gonna wanna do that.
[10:03]But lo and behold, when my children were little
[10:07]and I was just about at the end of my rope,
[10:11]I walked out of the house one night
[10:14]and met a friend who took me to a bar
[10:17]and I met someone who I was shocked
[10:21]at the feeling of desire that kind of just poured through me.
[10:26]So I told my husband about it
[10:27]and long story short, he said go for it,
[10:29]but that's kind of where the book, you know,
[10:31]that was at the beginning more than the end.
[10:33]Actually, not only it sounds like,
[10:36]is it not a turn on?
[10:37]But when your husband is with someone else,
[10:39]but you had a lot of scenes where you would cry.
[10:41]I think you had once you were like,
[10:43]your legs buckled and you're like,
[10:45]collapsed just thinking about him with someone else,
[10:47]even though it was okay for you to be with someone else.
[10:50]And he was like, what, like we agreed on this.
[10:53]I know.
[10:54]But there was that visceral reaction of like, no, no, no.
[10:57]Right.
[10:58]I think that's what I've learned both through experience.
[11:01]And at first it was just through like reading books
[11:03]like the ethical slut or things like that,
[11:05]that what that feeling was was fear
[11:08]that I was gonna lose him and deep insecurity
[11:11]about how lovable it was really.
[11:15]And the feeling that maybe love is a scarce resource
[11:19]and maybe if he loves somebody else,
[11:22]he can't love me as much or can't love me at all.
[11:26]So it was a fear that took me probably close to 10 years
[11:32]the length of the book to feel in my body differently.
[11:36]And it's partly why I told the book the way I did.
[11:38]I started out writing the book.
[11:40]My first draft, I thought was just genius,
[11:43]but it was not and I rejected by about 50 agents.
[11:48]And because they say don't send it to 50 agents,
[11:51]send it to like five and then you'll get some feedback.
[11:54]I was like, oh, no, no, this is too good.
[11:56]I don't wanna deprive the world of this, you know,
[11:59]and just like one no after another.
[12:01]And I realized what I had done is I had written a book
[12:03]of essay is basically all of which began something like,
[12:07]I'm fine now, don't worry about me.
[12:11]But back in the day, this is what happened.
[12:14]And it is also, you know,
[12:17]I was doing too much from my current sensibility
[12:20]and my current vantage point.
[12:22]And nobody would quite buy it.
[12:24]You know, nobody would believe me when I said,
[12:27]no, I'm actually not jealous anymore.
[12:29]I wouldn't have believed it, you know?
[12:32]And then I kept my agent who eventually signed me,
[12:35]kept making me start over.
[12:37]And ultimately where I landed was writing it
[12:40]in the present tense.
[12:41]And that's when I got it.
[12:43]That's when I got the voice that I needed,
[12:45]which was kind of an embodied younger self.
[12:48]I needed to be that 36 or 37-year-old just, you know,
[12:55]with the legs buckling, the nausea.
[12:58]I had to relive that in order to trace
[13:02]the evolution of what happened to me, you know?
[13:05]Interesting.
[13:06]So, and now I'm 51 and that 37-year-old self,
[13:10]I have so much compassion for my 20-year-old self,
[13:13]my six-year-old self.
[13:14]I have so much compassion for all of them.
[13:17]They were all very different in so many ways.
[13:20]And I feel like now what you were starting out saying,
[13:24]Zippy, about all these disparate parts of ourselves
[13:26]as mothers, like how do we integrate them?
[13:29]How do we integrate them into a hole
[13:32]that is probably gonna serve our children
[13:34]a lot better in the long run?
[13:36]Yes.
[13:37]And how do we all survive those earlier years?
[13:40]I mean, my marriage ended and I ended up getting remarried
[13:44]and to my tennis pro, I've written about this.
[13:46]So, it's like, but you know, there was like a sneaking
[13:51]around period, which I actually just read about,
[13:53]but where before everybody knew, like, you know,
[13:56]we I was already separated, but like kids to go
[13:58]and like all the friends to know, and you know,
[14:00]yeah, like, oh my gosh, what am I doing?
[14:02]Like, how am I in a hotel room?
[14:04]I mean, it's like crazy, and now I'm at pick up.
[14:07]And it's like, oh yeah, my day was fun.
[14:09]I mean, it was a long time ago now,
[14:12]but like just even going through that,
[14:15]like that's not what you're supposed to be doing
[14:17]while the kids are at school.
[14:18]Maybe, or maybe it is.
[14:21]Or maybe it is.
[14:22]Yeah, or it's different for different people.
[14:25]I think it's about giving yourself that freedom
[14:28]to be curious about yourself and to say,
[14:31]whoa, there is a part of me that wants to do this.
[14:35]Let me ask some more questions about it
[14:37]instead of just shutting it down as fast as I can, right?
[14:41]And maybe it's gonna take one form or another,
[14:43]not necessarily hotels and sneaking.
[14:46]Maybe it's to be riding a book.
[14:47]Like, I didn't think I could ride a book either.
[14:49]And look at me now.
[14:50]Yeah.
[14:52]No, it doesn't have to be in this way,
[14:54]but I do feel that while you're in the thick of it
[14:57]with kids without some sort of outlet,
[15:00]you can just go crazy.
[15:01]Yeah.
[15:02]Like, there needs to be something,
[15:04]whether it's working out or talking to a friend
[15:07]or just starting an open marriage or whatever it is,
[15:13]you have to have something.
[15:15]Because you think it's yours
[15:16]and you're only in which your spirit can be free.
[15:21]Yes.
[15:22]And I think the working out, I tried to do that.
[15:25]I remember when I don't think the scene made it into the book,
[15:28]but when my kids were little, I hurt my hip.
[15:32]Oh, I know what it was.
[15:33]I had the bright idea that the thing I was gonna do
[15:35]to be free was to run a half marathon.
[15:37]And I did, and it was really exciting,
[15:40]but I injured myself pretty badly.
[15:42]And so I had hip issues for years afterwards.
[15:45]And so I was doing my physical therapy exercises at night
[15:49]when I watched TV.
[15:50]And then my physical therapist said,
[15:51]actually, I think that's really messing up your alignment.
[15:54]You need to turn off the TV and really focus.
[15:57]So the next night, I was doing my exercises
[16:00]and just started to sob because I was like,
[16:03]this is my me time.
[16:05]This is what it's come to.
[16:06]My me time is doing my hip exercises
[16:09]because I tried to do something for myself and run.
[16:13]And now, it was just too much.
[16:17]It was just too, too pathetic.
[16:19]I'm trying to cut.
[16:22]So it's like we do, we need something.
[16:24]And it's not always gonna be to run at breakneck speed.
[16:28]Maybe for some people that does work out.
[16:30]For me, it was not a great idea
[16:31]to start running in my mid 30s.
[16:35]I've had many of physical therapists
[16:37]for the last decade or so.
[16:40]I'm like, this is why I don't ski.
[16:41]I came up, it's too much.
[16:43]This is why I don't fill in the blank.
[16:45]Yeah, exactly.
[16:46]It's not worth it.
[16:47]It's not worth it.
[16:48]And I'm like, I'm not gonna do those exercises.
[16:50]Like, it's not gonna take you that long.
[16:52]I'm like, you know what, I'd rather like write another book
[16:55]than like do a to raise in the shower.
[16:58]I don't know why, but that's just the way it is.
[17:01]I am with me though.
[17:03]I'm with you though.
[17:04]Yes.
[17:05]So the relationships that you write about in the book,
[17:08]you know, and I also, by the way,
[17:10]found myself getting so worried about you
[17:11]because you're meeting, you know,
[17:13]you just don't know who these people are.
[17:16]And I know that there were some situations
[17:18]that were a little sketchier than others,
[17:19]but how do you even handle that now?
[17:22]And like, how do you make sure you're okay?
[17:25]Yeah.
[17:25]Well, you weren't the only one to be worried about me.
[17:27]My friends were worried about me.
[17:29]I was worried about me to be frank.
[17:31]At this stage, I'm not on dating apps anymore.
[17:35]I have, you know, one partner that I've been with
[17:38]for three years plus and it's funny.
[17:42]Sometimes people like, you know,
[17:44]they'll be someone who they kind of are out of my life
[17:49]for a little while often because sometimes they're younger
[17:52]and they're having children, you know what I mean?
[17:54]And I'm like, very understanding of that.
[17:57]I'm like, I want all my partners to be very good partners
[18:00]to their wives.
[18:01]And I like to say, I am a big champion of the wives.
[18:06]My partner's wives love me because I am the one saying,
[18:12]no, I'm not going out with you.
[18:13]You need to go home.
[18:14]Like, what do you do, you know what I mean?
[18:16]I'm always, I've always got their back, right?
[18:19]There was a guy who messaged me on one of the dating apps
[18:22]years ago and was telling me that they had just opened
[18:25]their marriage about a year ago,
[18:27]but now his wife was pregnant and she said it was fine
[18:30]if he kept going.
[18:30]Like, no, no, no, that is not fine.
[18:33]I was like, there is no piece of that that is fine.
[18:36]Even if she says it's fine, I don't think it's fine.
[18:38]And so I was like, if you can find someone else good for you,
[18:41]but I was like, my advice is to close the marriage
[18:44]for at least two years and pay attention to each other.
[18:48]And he wrote me again two years later and it was like,
[18:50]that was the best advice you could have given me.
[18:52]And like, we had, you know, like what, duh, but still,
[18:57]I'm like, but the two years are now up.
[19:00]So here I am.
[19:01]And I was like, still not interested, but one of the things
[19:06]that was so unique in this book, too,
[19:07]is that when you went through heartbreak,
[19:10]it was your husband comforting you.
[19:13]I mean, that is such a unique thing to read about,
[19:16]to go through, I mean, it's just so wonderful.
[19:21]Tell me how to talk about that.
[19:23]Yeah, and now I'm able to do it for him, too, you know,
[19:28]we've both been through some heartbreak.
[19:30]It's been a lot of years now that, you know,
[19:34]it's been a solid 15 years.
[19:35]I've had my heart broken more than once.
[19:38]And so has he, but it's also, it's a different kind
[19:42]of feeling, too, now that we can really connect
[19:46]with each other around it.
[19:47]And my mother is the other person I can talk to, you know?
[19:50]And that's just nobody, nobody would believe it
[19:53]unless I wrote about it, you know, in a way that really showed
[19:56]all the kind of turning points and moments of evolution.
[20:00]because the idea that I break up with a guy outside
[20:04]of my marriage and the two people I need to talk to
[20:07]are my mom and my husband, like, come on, you know?
[20:11]But it's true.
[20:12]And they love me and they want me to be happy
[20:16]and it is kind of a beautiful, amazing thing.
[20:20]So there's a magic to it too.
[20:22]I don't even know how I can describe it except to say,
[20:26]I think what happens is that my mother has had this feeling, right?
[20:31]She has been in love with someone else and loved my father
[20:34]at the same time.
[20:36]My husband has had that feeling,
[20:37]loving more than one person at a time.
[20:39]And now I've had it.
[20:40]So we all, once you kind of know what that feeling is,
[20:44]it doesn't feel threatening anymore
[20:47]because you realize, oh, this is not a game of scarcity
[20:51]and zero sum where, oh, thank God, she's gone.
[20:55]So now you can love me more.
[20:56]No, she's gone.
[20:57]Now you're gonna be really sad for a while and I'm so sorry.
[21:00]Yeah.
[21:01]So I want my partner to be with people who make him happy,
[21:05]not people who he's glad to be rid of, you know?
[21:08]Of course, yes.
[21:09]It reminds me a little bit of some of the tropes around mother
[21:12]and laws and daughter and laws as if, you know,
[21:15]there's this competition kind of, when you see it done
[21:18]in, you know, through central casting or something, right?
[21:21]And in a sitcom where the mother-in-law,
[21:23]the daughter-in-law are very in competition,
[21:26]I think of Charlotte from Sex and the City or something like that, right?
[21:30]And there's something very dysfunctional about that, right?
[21:35]If you both love the same person,
[21:37]don't you want them to have love?
[21:39]I want my boys to find amazing partners that they love
[21:43]and hopefully love more than me.
[21:45]Like, you know, if I loved my dad more
[21:47]than I love my husband right now,
[21:49]there'd be something, you know, I love my dad,
[21:51]but it's a different love, right?
[21:53]I feel like that's what you outline to in the book.
[21:55]It's not about more or less,
[21:57]and it's not coming from the same sort of, like,
[22:00]vertical test tube of love.
[22:01]Like, they're just so many, right?
[22:03]Like, you talk about how with friends,
[22:06]you're not like, oh, I have a really good friend,
[22:07]so I can't have this other really good friend.
[22:09]Like, you can have as many really good friends as you need,
[22:11]and maybe once from college,
[22:12]and once from high school, or once, you know,
[22:14]they all feed like different parts of your souls.
[22:17]And that's okay.
[22:18]Like, there's, you can't run out of love.
[22:20]Right, and for children too,
[22:21]I made that comparison as well.
[22:23]I had a moment of kind of paralyzing fear
[22:25]when I had to get induced for both my children,
[22:27]but I was leaving for the hospital
[22:29]to have my second child,
[22:30]and I was just like, how am I gonna do this?
[22:32]I was just filled with love for my first child,
[22:35]and like, oh no, I'm leaving you for two days
[22:39]to go cheat on you with another baby.
[22:41]You know, that's kind of the way it fell.
[22:43]Yeah.
[22:44]And then, look at that,
[22:45]and my father actually said to me that day,
[22:47]because they were staying with my oldest
[22:49]when I went to the hospital.
[22:50]He said, you were giving him the greatest gift
[22:52]in the world or giving him a brother.
[22:54]And I was like, oh, that's nice.
[22:56]And I did, you know, it's just a different way
[22:58]to look at love, I think.
[23:00]Yeah, I remember feeling so guilty,
[23:02]like being like, oh, I have to leave.
[23:04]Go to the hospital, I'll have your siblings.
[23:06]Like, I felt so bad.
[23:07]It's just really exciting.
[23:08]Funny?
[23:09]We can feel guilty over the craziest stuff.
[23:12]We really can.
[23:14]And if there's not like enough
[23:16]that's guilt inducing, we will find something.
[23:18]Yeah.
[23:19]Like adding to the planet for you.
[23:22]Right, right.
[23:23]Oh, no, I had a baby.
[23:24]Oh, no.
[23:25]No, I was gone for two days
[23:26]that you'll never remember.
[23:27]But yeah.
[23:28]Right.
[23:29]What do you worry about being judged?
[23:32]Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest.
[23:34]Some of the comments in New York Times article
[23:37]or other things that have other media that's come out,
[23:40]I told myself I wouldn't look,
[23:41]but then I might peek a little.
[23:43]I might feel a little, you know,
[23:45]ultimately not really, though.
[23:47]I feel like I'm at a time in my life
[23:49]and just a sense of self that I have now
[23:53]that doesn't feel very vulnerable to random opinions.
[23:58]If someone in my life is upset about something
[24:02]I've written and that has happened,
[24:04]I take that very seriously
[24:06]and make sure we talk about it.
[24:09]But so far, so good.
[24:11]A couple people have been upset
[24:12]and have talked to me and we're good now.
[24:16]And ultimately, I've found that it can be a very healing thing.
[24:21]I'll give an example too, like my aunt
[24:24]who is the one who told me about my parents
[24:26]and I write about it in the book.
[24:28]And so she hadn't read the book yet,
[24:30]but I saw her at Christmas and she was like,
[24:33]well, now I'm going to be immortalized as a blabberman, right?
[24:38]And, but I talked to her about it.
[24:40]I was like, I'm so glad you told me
[24:41]because I don't think my mother ever would have.
[24:43]And I needed to know it has been such an important
[24:46]part of my relationship with my mother
[24:50]and just it's kind of affected
[24:52]the whole trajectory of my life
[24:53]in a way that feels really meaningful.
[24:55]So yeah, people might judge me and that's okay.
[24:59]I'm putting myself out there, not for the purposes
[25:03]of self-aggrandizement.
[25:05]If I were, I wouldn't have written a lot of the things I wrote.
[25:08]I mean, I tried to show all of the ugly underbelly
[25:12]of these years in a way that was as honest as I could make it
[25:16]because I was seeing a lot of that open marriage
[25:18]that either seemed, it was going in one of two ways.
[25:21]One was we tried it, it didn't work, right?
[25:25]Or it was, yeah, we were just,
[25:27]I think we were just born polyamorous.
[25:30]And so this has been just so easy and lovely.
[25:32]And yeah, I feel great.
[25:34]And I neither of those felt like me.
[25:36]I felt like it is possible.
[25:39]And for me, it has been worth it,
[25:41]but it is really hard.
[25:43]And so I wanted to show that
[25:45]and that wasn't anywhere else.
[25:47]So in order to do that, I knew I was going to invite some criticism.
[25:51]But I have so much love in my life, my friends, my family.
[25:55]I haven't lost a single relationship I care about because
[26:00]of this book and more than anything people
[26:03]are just coming out of the woodwork to say how much they love
[26:08]the book or how supportive they are.
[26:10]Well, I'm very happy to hear that.
[26:11]I really think, memoir is a genre I love
[26:16]because you get in there with someone in a way
[26:18]that you wouldn't in a conversation,
[26:20]even an intimate conversation, like all of the details.
[26:23]And I mean, tons of editing to make it like a beautiful book,
[26:26]but not censoring out the unflattering bits or all of that.
[26:30]Like that's what makes memoir so great.
[26:32]It's like seeing the whole thing.
[26:34]And you really let us in.
[26:35]And that is so generous of you to do.
[26:38]So anyway, I loved it.
[26:41]It's really awesome.
[26:42]You're awesome.
[26:43]You're awesome, too.
[26:44]Thank you, thank you.
[26:45]I hope we can do this again sometime.
[26:47]Yeah, let's do something else.
[26:49]This is so fun.
[26:50]I'm coming to your bookstore in Santa Monica in February 1st.
[26:53]Oh, yay.
[26:54]Great.
[26:54]I'm so glad you're doing it.
[26:57]Excellent.
[26:57]Congratulations.
[26:58]Thank you, Zibi.
[26:59]I appreciate it.
[27:00]OK.
[27:00]Bye.
[27:01]Bye.
[27:03]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[27:05]to Read Books.
[27:06]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[27:09]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:11]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[27:14]and sign up for my virtual book club
[27:16]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[27:18]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[27:21]for the Sound Editing.
[27:22]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[27:24]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.