Julie Chavez, EVERYONE BUT MYSELF: A Memoir
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippy mag.com.
[0:33]We have classes.
[0:34]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Julie Chavez is the author of everyone but myself, a memoir.
[1:08]This is one of our zippy books.
[1:09]And I am so proud of Julie.
[1:12]Julie was in Zippy's book club from the very beginning basically, which we started in March
[1:16]of 2020 alongside Megan Reardon Jarvis, who already had a book come out.
[1:21]But Julie and I used to chat in the zooms on the book club and got to know each other.
[1:26]And I just loved the way she wrote in her sense of humor.
[1:29]And I asked about her having a book and she had sold a book, but ended up getting the
[1:35]rights back, selling it to us.
[1:36]And now it's become this wonderful, fabulous, relatable memoir, which you almost read.
[1:42]It's for anyone who is tired of taking care of everyone but themselves.
[1:48]So for anyone who feels that way at all, which is like everyone, you have to pick this up.
[1:53]And it's really funny.
[1:55]Julie is an elementary school librarian in Northern California.
[1:58]So thousands of books passed through her hands each month.
[2:01]Everyone but myself is the first one written by her.
[2:04]Julie lives with her husband and two tall teenagers in a house where she arranges her books
[2:09]by color.
[2:10]Welcome, Julie.
[2:11]Thank you so much for coming on mom.
[2:12]Don't have time to read books to discuss everyone but myself a memoir.
[2:17]Zippy, I'm so so honored, so excited.
[2:20]I was, this is, it really is such a full circle moment.
[2:23]So thank you for having me.
[2:25]So the reason listeners, why Julie and I are both kind of freaking out at this moment
[2:30]is because of our whole story of how Julie became as if he books out there, how we even
[2:35]became friends and colleagues and whatever else you want to say and now it's like become
[2:41]a book and the book is coming out and anyway, you tell it, you tell it, Julie.
[2:45]I am, I love hearing you say that.
[2:48]I think, yeah, I was, the thing that's neat for you and I is that when this book started,
[2:54]so there was a manuscript that I developed with a coach named Brooke Warner who's lovely
[2:58]and I had been working a little bit with she writes press which is her hybrid press and
[3:02]is part of sort of the beginnings of the book.
[3:05]I joined your book club and I was so charmed by the community there and of course by you.
[3:13]I mean, it just, and it was so special for me too because up until that point I didn't
[3:17]realize I could hear from authors like that.
[3:20]I mean, it truly was like a new thing that I could ask them questions because for people
[3:25]that don't know your virtual book club, you know, we talk the first half hour just the attendees
[3:31]and the people who read the book and then the author comes for the second half hour,
[3:33]which is just such a fun premise and it made it so close.
[3:39]So then it feels like, you know, you and I developed a friendship and then suddenly you
[3:44]were starting your publishing company and it just was such an exciting time for me and
[3:50]such a lightning strike kind of of various things that fell into the place or fell into
[3:55]place right at the right time.
[3:57]And then so since then just being part of the zippy books universe is so fun and your
[4:02]universe and moms don't have time to read books.
[4:04]So yeah, it's so fun.
[4:06]And you ended up guest hosting so many of my recent episodes.
[4:10]So thank you for that.
[4:11]You're sure.
[4:12]Sure.
[4:13]It has been my pleasure.
[4:14]I love and that's something that I totally put to you like I should have mentioned that
[4:19]as part of my publishing journey, you know, I hosted Ask a Librarian for about a year
[4:24]and a half and I got to just find this totally new part of me that I loved.
[4:30]And that is a really special thing, you know, once you're in midlife to find new sides
[4:35]of yourself, new things that you enjoy doing.
[4:38]I mean, what a gift.
[4:39]So it's been so fun.
[4:40]Yes, so all the listeners I'm sure that have been listening to me on the other side.
[4:44]Now it's a real full circle moment for them as well.
[4:47]And I'm sure this will be marked in their calendars with like, you know, art, right?
[4:51]I mean, it feels right.
[4:53]They could just put it on repeat actually in their.
[4:56]It could just every day start again with this.
[4:58]Maybe they'll learn something new this time.
[5:01]I just think here are voices in this totally, I'm going to do that to torture my children
[5:06]actually.
[5:07]I don't even know why this is there for so long.
[5:14]I always had this Aerosmith song any time we got in the car, this Aerosmith song from
[5:19]iTunes would come on.
[5:20]And I'm like, I don't even like Aerosmith.
[5:21]I don't even know why or where it came from and I couldn't get it to stop.
[5:24]No, it stopped.
[5:25]But it's because it started with a we have a similar yes, it's that happens every time
[5:30]and we have a horrible song that comes on.
[5:32]I need to change it and name something else annoying a I don't know.
[5:35]Yeah.
[5:36]I won't put this on to this podcast file will now be the A and everyone's have all
[5:42]iTunes library so we can come on.
[5:44]Okay.
[5:45]Anyway, everyone but myself, please tell us what your book is about.
[5:48]I would love to.
[5:50]So this book is about a season of severe anxiety and depression that I weathered in 2018.
[5:57]After I spent too long caring for everyone but myself, I am a mom of two boys.
[6:03]I'm a wife to a husband I really like.
[6:06]I work at a library and it was a time where I had forgotten that on the list of people
[6:15]that I love and care about, my name should be on there as well.
[6:18]So I neglected myself for too long.
[6:20]There were consequences to that self neglect and they came in the form of anxiety and depression.
[6:25]So this book really is the story of my way back from that edge from finding ways to care
[6:31]for myself again to connect to my feelings to do all these basic things that I'd forgotten
[6:36]how to do.
[6:37]So, you know, this is the story of someone you know if it's not your story.
[6:41]It's very familiar.
[6:42]I think most readers will find it really relatable if nothing else.
[6:47]Yes.
[6:48]And you have a wonderful sense of humor and a great voice.
[6:51]And having you tell any story is really just a true pleasure.
[6:55]Oh, thanks.
[6:56]I mean, that's good to hear.
[6:58]And I hope that there is humor in this book.
[7:00]And I think there is.
[7:01]And that is totally down to so many of the editors I worked with, especially Jordan
[7:06]Blumetti, who I worked with and Bridey Levero Clark as well.
[7:09]They were amazing and really helped me understand that I could be funny on the page without
[7:16]it being totally cringy and awful.
[7:18]So that's a real gift.
[7:20]There you go.
[7:21]Yeah.
[7:22]And I mean, you always had this wonderful newsletter, by the way, Julie writes words.
[7:25]Your newsletter is really one of my favorites.
[7:28]You always have something interesting to say.
[7:30]And it's always one I read, which I get like a trillion newsletters because now I feel
[7:35]bad.
[7:36]Now that I know that people know when you unsubscribe, I feel like I can't unsubscribe
[7:39]to anything anymore.
[7:40]Right.
[7:41]It's so true.
[7:42]So now you're just stuck in this vortex of you will be receiving every newsletter until
[7:46]you die.
[7:47]Pretty much.
[7:48]But I know you're so great.
[7:50]Well, I'm honored.
[7:51]I love, I love writing it.
[7:53]That has been a surprising joy.
[7:55]I love connecting with people.
[7:56]And it really is just, you know, this is normal life.
[7:59]And it's happening all the time and falling apart and being put back together constantly.
[8:04]And so how we navigate that is always of interest to me.
[8:08]So talk a little bit about the inciting incident for your anxiety, what happened and really
[8:15]how you were able to put pull yourself back, which tools did you end up, ended up helping
[8:19]you the most.
[8:20]Yeah.
[8:22]So the inciting incident, it's basically it starts in November of 2017 if we're going
[8:28]back.
[8:29]But this is, I feel like for a lot of people with anxiety, the presenting problem is not
[8:34]usually the root problem.
[8:35]So you start sort of in a place.
[8:37]So my first panic attack happened in spring of 2018.
[8:41]But in 2017, the boys and I had been going to immunotherapy injections because I'm a
[8:46]person with crazy allergies.
[8:48]And I gave that on to them.
[8:50]They're welcome.
[8:52]But their bodies are perfectly primed right now for all of this intervention.
[8:55]So for people that don't know, they're commonly called allergy shots.
[8:58]So you go and you get an increasing dose of the things that you're allergic to.
[9:02]So that eventually your body won't respond to them.
[9:05]So we're having these allergy shots, everything's going fine.
[9:08]And then one day I had what's called a systemic reaction.
[9:12]So I basically your body fully freaks out.
[9:17]And this is something that can happen because you are intentionally exposing yourself to
[9:22]things that you are allergic to.
[9:24]So you're injecting it into your bloodstream.
[9:26]It's not, it doesn't have to be a huge thing.
[9:30]Sometimes people will have a systemic reaction and then they go back to getting the allergy
[9:34]shots and it's no problem for them.
[9:36]But for me, it scared me so badly.
[9:39]I was terrified.
[9:41]I just lay on this table shaking because they give you epinephrine to help stop.
[9:47]the reaction and prevent it from becoming an afflictive shock.
[9:51]But that makes your body feel like you've had 18 cups of coffee.
[9:55]And so it's just a stressful experience no matter what.
[9:58]But for me, I.
[10:00]really just it really opened up a fear of death
[10:03]that I already have.
[10:05]And that has been especially acute since becoming a mom.
[10:08]And I know I'm not the only person who struggles with that.
[10:11]And I have also experiences with early loss
[10:15]and then also experience with my husband losing his mother
[10:19]when he was a teenager.
[10:20]And so there were so many things
[10:22]that really tied me to that fear.
[10:25]But I didn't deal with that.
[10:27]I just kept moving.
[10:29]Because I had baseball pants to wash.
[10:31]And people had to have rides and things had to be done.
[10:34]And I had just gone back to work.
[10:35]So I had taken this 30 hours at the library
[10:38]and plopped it on time or on top,
[10:40]excuse me, of being a stay at home mom.
[10:42]So you fast forward a few months
[10:45]to where I'm seriously depleted.
[10:47]I'm exhausted.
[10:49]Mondo had been traveling a ton.
[10:51]And we went to the sports park.
[10:53]And I had a very normal allergic reaction
[10:56]to the pollen that was present in the spring.
[10:59]My son's baseball game.
[11:00]And then suddenly I was terrified.
[11:03]It was just one thought that was,
[11:05]oh, maybe you messed up your system with those shots.
[11:07]And now you're going to die just because, you know,
[11:09]the leaves are blooming.
[11:11]And that was enough for me to spiral.
[11:13]And I was actually in that bed.
[11:16]It's so weird.
[11:17]But I was sitting there all night with the light on.
[11:20]And I just was terrified.
[11:22]And I call it in the book the night
[11:23]I couldn't turn out the lights.
[11:25]Because I was convinced that I was going to die.
[11:28]Mondo was out of town.
[11:30]I was worried about the boys.
[11:31]And it was really my first experience
[11:35]like that of I am stuck in the sphere.
[11:38]And I can't get out.
[11:40]So I have this panic attack.
[11:42]And then I wake up the next day.
[11:43]And I call the allergy doctor.
[11:45]I mean, I do all the things.
[11:46]That's the thing is that normally,
[11:48]I think I had ways of managing my stress or my fear.
[11:52]And then so I start deploying those.
[11:54]And none of them are working.
[11:56]And instead I felt like I just was constantly
[11:59]a buzz with anxiety.
[12:00]I was, it was like someone had flipped a switch.
[12:02]And I was on.
[12:03]I was shaking.
[12:04]I was just really stressed.
[12:06]But because I am a mom, I could set all that aside.
[12:10]And basically panic all day long while I read books
[12:14]to the children and why I gave my kids rides.
[12:17]So it started to continue to end up up.
[12:20]And as I'm deploying more tactics to try and get it to stop,
[12:24]that's not happening.
[12:25]And so eventually I ended up, it was actually on Mother's Day,
[12:29]that I realized things were sliding too far, too fast.
[12:33]And so I became terrified of the anxiety itself.
[12:38]It's just a cycle.
[12:40]And so luckily at that point, well,
[12:43]I had gone to my gynecologist, she said quit your job.
[12:46]And everyone asks why the gynecologist.
[12:48]But I just didn't really have another doctor at the time.
[12:50]And I think that's very common for a lot of women,
[12:52]because you go for a while.
[12:55]And also I had pretty severe postpartum, baby blues
[12:58]bordering on depression.
[12:59]And my gynecologist was the person that saved me.
[13:02]Dr. Wells was the one who had said, what do we need for you?
[13:06]She saw what I was going through and she understood.
[13:08]So that was where I started.
[13:09]But that ended up being a wrong move
[13:11]and just giving me another doubt.
[13:13]So I'm realizing this answer is going on really long.
[13:17]I will really have to learn how to tighten this puppy up.
[13:20]We have a whole podcast.
[13:21]You don't end this in this format.
[13:23]You do not have to tighten it up.
[13:25]This was a five minute podcast.
[13:26]You would fail.
[13:27]You would just stop the show.
[13:29]But this was totally appropriate for this format.
[13:32]OK, good.
[13:33]I was actually hanging on your every word
[13:35]because, first of all, I also have terrible allergies.
[13:38]I went through years of allergy shots.
[13:40]I don't think they've worked.
[13:41]I feel like I should go back.
[13:42]I had all these new adult allergies.
[13:44]It's so annoying.
[13:45]I have also blessed my kids with all of my allergies.
[13:47]And I feel guilty about that.
[13:48]But anyway, so it's your experience.
[13:51]Everyone is just one step away from having it.
[13:54]Yes.
[13:56]I think what you're saying is exactly, when you read this book,
[13:59]that's the thing when I tell this story,
[14:01]there aren't many remarkable moments or anything
[14:03]that you're going to read and think, oh, my gosh,
[14:05]I can't believe that happened.
[14:06]You actually can believe this happened.
[14:08]Because it is one of those things that just we are also
[14:12]close and also for so many of us, especially people who
[14:17]are caring for someone else, whether you're
[14:18]a mom or whether that's your job, we are often
[14:22]so burned out that we don't realize it until something happens
[14:27]to break the camels back.
[14:29]And then suddenly you're in basically a free fall.
[14:32]And so that was why for me, I started scrambling
[14:36]to find help.
[14:36]It was hard to find a therapist.
[14:38]And it's even harder now, unfortunately.
[14:40]Luckily, I feel like some of the resources that are out there
[14:44]now are filling that hole.
[14:46]So that's great.
[14:47]But this was 2018.
[14:48]So we weren't using Zoom.
[14:50]There wasn't a lot.
[14:52]I mean, some people were, but I wasn't.
[14:53]And so all of these pieces.
[14:56]So thankfully, I was able to get to my PA
[14:59]who ended up telling me that he thought I was depressed
[15:03]because I wasn't able to fix my anxiety.
[15:06]And he was very right because I'm someone
[15:08]that likes to control what is happening in my life,
[15:11]and especially what's happening with me.
[15:12]So he did a great job.
[15:14]And then I was able to find a therapist.
[15:16]And luckily, she was a fit from the start.
[15:20]So I think, but also knowing that when I started therapy,
[15:24]things got worse for a little bit,
[15:26]because it's very stressful to open that up.
[15:29]So you just finding support shouldn't be as hard as it is.
[15:33]But it is.
[15:34]So that's kind of my hope too.
[15:36]With this book that people will have that idea
[15:39]exactly what you're saying.
[15:40]Like, we're all pretty close to needing that.
[15:43]But you want to find it now when things are not desperate.
[15:49]Because when you're in the throes of a mental health crisis,
[15:52]it's really not the best time to try and call people
[15:57]on the phone, because I hate making appointments
[15:59]just on a regular day.
[16:00]So doing it when you're not feeling yourself is really,
[16:06]it can be a barrier.
[16:07]And it sounds almost silly, but it's not.
[16:10]It is one of those things where if you can have those supports
[16:13]in place, people that you know that you can go to.
[16:16]And even friends, I stop talking to my friends.
[16:19]I really made a lot of mistakes that I hope that someone else
[16:22]can benefit from.
[16:24]It's sometimes our brains just like working against us.
[16:27]Yes.
[16:27]You should read.
[16:28]Maybe I'll send you my copy of Gary Goldman
[16:30]has a book called Misfit.
[16:32]And he's a comedian.
[16:33]He's a stand-up comedian.
[16:34]But he went through a major depressive episode.
[16:36]And it opens with just how hard it
[16:39]was for him to even get to his therapist appointment.
[16:42]Like, the a million thoughts and feelings
[16:45]and basically the weights that wanted
[16:47]he felt like we're sort of holding him to the bed.
[16:50]He didn't say that, but I just had living here.
[16:52]But anyway, how difficult it was just to navigate the traffic
[16:56]and get there on time and get out of the house.
[16:58]And when you're in one of those depressive states
[17:01]that ordinary things, like getting help
[17:04]and realizing that you need help, it's all just, you know,
[17:07]as opposed to some sort of physical diagnosis,
[17:10]like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm some, you know, anyway.
[17:15]My leg fell off.
[17:16]Exactly.
[17:17]Like, we all know that.
[17:18]You can't know how to deal with that, essentially,
[17:20]but not exactly, but yes.
[17:22]No, but you're exactly right.
[17:23]There is a major hangup.
[17:26]And I think that's part of what I talk about in the book, too,
[17:28]which is that until you've been,
[17:31]we don't know what we don't know.
[17:33]And until you've been there, it's easy to assume
[17:35]we understand what someone's going through.
[17:37]And even for me, as a person who's experienced
[17:40]anxiety and depression, my depression
[17:42]has never really looked like, I can't get out of bed,
[17:45]but it looks different.
[17:47]So this idea, and that's something that Mondo,
[17:50]my husband and I really started to understand in this time
[17:53]because he didn't have any framework
[17:56]for what I was experiencing.
[17:58]And so for him, there was an element of like,
[18:02]well, just stop thinking about what you're stressing about.
[18:04]Right? Or stop being anxious,
[18:06]which is the worst thing you could say to a person,
[18:09]but when you don't know, you kind of get stuck.
[18:12]So it's so true, the many barriers that exist
[18:16]when you are not feeling yourself.
[18:18]Especially for, because I am in this camp also,
[18:22]I feel like high-functioning,
[18:24]depressive anxiety types, right?
[18:26]I can be having a day where inside, I'm, you know,
[18:29]I know how to hide it, essentially.
[18:32]Like I don't, it doesn't flatten me,
[18:34]but I'm feeling it inside.
[18:36]And people would probably be like,
[18:38]well, no, you're not, because look,
[18:39]you just did this like really upbeat podcast.
[18:41]And I'm like, you're not, you can't see what's inside today.
[18:45]Correct.
[18:45]Yes, for those of us that fall into that camp of,
[18:48]okay, I can set this aside for now, but yeah, it's there.
[18:52]And then you, if you don't deal with it,
[18:56]then it reaches a point where it will begin
[18:58]to leak out the sides.
[18:59]And that's not a good feeling for anyone.
[19:02]Yeah.
[19:03]And I think, and I feel like now I should actually
[19:05]have you in conversation with Brittany about this.
[19:07]And Brittany means another specific author
[19:09]because she is all about how therapists
[19:12]can have their own stuff going on
[19:14]and make them really bad therapists.
[19:16]And your experience, you had to,
[19:17]it took about to find the right,
[19:19]you have to find the right fit for yourself.
[19:21]And this doesn't necessarily,
[19:23]it's, it might not be the one who's on your plan,
[19:25]the first or the most convenient or whatever.
[19:27]And you have to like keep digging.
[19:28]And maybe you don't know what makes a good therapist.
[19:31]And maybe you feel like this is all therapists.
[19:33]Anyway, so this is another thing
[19:35]that I feel like your book helps people
[19:36]and realizes, you know, find the fit for you
[19:38]and the right voices in your head.
[19:41]Yes, you're exactly right.
[19:43]And that is something that is so true.
[19:45]And Brittany's case, which by the way,
[19:47]I have her book is so,
[19:49]we'll know, but I love it.
[19:50]And I have to say too, what I loved about her book
[19:53]is it's very heavy, but I never felt tanked reading it
[19:57]because some of the books for me are too depressing
[19:59]or too.
[20:00]to anxiety inducing basically,
[20:02]but hers was so wonderful.
[20:04]But I think to your point, I got lucky there.
[20:07]And also in a way, I was so desperate
[20:09]that I couldn't overthink it
[20:11]because that's where I get stuck, right?
[20:13]So I would be, I'm a typical person who would think,
[20:17]oh, you seem fine, but is there a better therapist
[20:20]out there for me where sometimes it can just be,
[20:23]hey, you're just right for now.
[20:26]But I think again, that's why there's an argument
[20:28]for doing it ahead of time, for preparing for yourself,
[20:32]and saying, I have this plan in place,
[20:34]I know this person understands me
[20:35]so that then when I'm not well,
[20:38]I can just go there and I cut out all of those extra pieces.
[20:43]Yeah, yeah, Brittany and I can totally talk about our issues.
[20:46]It would be great.
[20:47]I love that the issues themselves,
[20:49]just like finding the right person for you.
[20:53]Is there a post-issues of course?
[20:54]Yes, you know.
[20:55]I mean, I would love to just listen to that.
[20:58]Your issues in general.
[20:59]I mean, when you said earlier,
[21:00]like there's nothing remarkable in here,
[21:02]I wanted to like raise my hand and be like,
[21:04]I totally disagree with that.
[21:05]I mean, you might not find a remarkable
[21:07]because it's your life and your feelings,
[21:08]but the way that not everybody can dissect
[21:12]that every day and the running thoughts and feelings
[21:15]and turn it into something that will help other people
[21:18]and our significant moments.
[21:20]I mean, you had like many turning points in the book
[21:23]of when you realize these massively life-changing things.
[21:26]And that doesn't mean that you're scaling a mountain
[21:30]and whatever.
[21:32]The hurdles that most people overcome
[21:35]are not these out of the ordinary life-changing
[21:40]visually dramatic seem to be adapted productions.
[21:44]Like most of us have like,
[21:45]oh, I realized that if I do this little thing,
[21:50]then my life is this much better
[21:52]and that is really profound.
[21:55]I appreciate you saying that.
[21:57]And I think you're exactly right.
[21:59]I see it on that scale of like,
[22:00]what's happening to me necessarily,
[22:02]but I am, it was, you know,
[22:07]I had a conversation with Kim,
[22:08]my therapist at one point and I was saying,
[22:10]she's such a good fit for me, which she is.
[22:12]But she also said, you know,
[22:14]but Julie were a good fit because of our personalities
[22:17]and because of all these things,
[22:18]but also you are naturally pretty intuitive.
[22:21]I pay a lot of attention to what's happening inside me.
[22:25]And I pay even more attention now.
[22:27]And I think that's the thing that is hopefully good
[22:32]for people to know and see,
[22:34]because it's, I think it's so easy
[22:39]to forget that people among us who are high functioning
[22:44]still have that base layer of stress and examination.
[22:49]And then for those of us that are able to look at it
[22:52]and then share it, hopefully that's helpful to other people
[22:55]because I know that can be really tough.
[22:58]And at that time, it was so painful for me
[23:01]to examine anything.
[23:02]So to look back and be able to do it from this perspective
[23:05]and then also get better at doing it in the moment
[23:07]has been a huge gift.
[23:09]Well, essentially what you're doing is you're being a good
[23:11]friend to people who don't know they're your friends yet.
[23:13]Yeah.
[23:14]But you're just like telling your story
[23:15]the way you would if we were sitting down to coffee
[23:18]and you're like, oh my gosh, we'll listen to this, you know.
[23:21]But seriously, I mean, and you write in that tone
[23:25]where everybody feels like, oh, yeah, we're friends now, you know.
[23:28]I love that.
[23:30]I hope that that's truly some of my hope for the book,
[23:33]like that it can be a friend to someone
[23:35]because I know that, and you and I share this love
[23:39]where books are friends to me.
[23:42]I mean, there are books that are so precious to me
[23:46]and people, you know, I always felt like that reading,
[23:49]writing like Kelly Corrigan's and some of these other writers
[23:53]that just feel so familiar and I feel like, oh my gosh,
[23:55]that's exactly how I would have put it.
[23:58]So if I can, if this book and if I can be that for someone,
[24:03]I mean, then there's really nothing better than that.
[24:06]Yeah, amazing.
[24:07]I haven't even asked you this offline,
[24:09]but are you working on anything else these days?
[24:11]So what are you working on?
[24:13]What a good question you ask.
[24:15]So, funny, I should ask.
[24:16]Funny, you should ask,
[24:17]that's weird, are you in the publishing business?
[24:19]Fun.
[24:20]So, well, this is the funny thing
[24:21]is that I started working on a children's book.
[24:23]I was sure I was going to write a picture book.
[24:25]And so far, it's been an abysmal failure.
[24:28]Like, I keep trying and I keep failing,
[24:33]which is great because that is something
[24:35]that used to be so uncomfortable for me.
[24:37]Not being able to do something right away is, you know,
[24:40]for a long time, that was like literally
[24:42]a decent blessing for me.
[24:43]So the idea to think, okay, I'm just not good at this yet.
[24:47]And I'm really not, which is ironic
[24:49]because I read picture books all day,
[24:52]but they are so distilled and so challenging to write.
[24:55]It's really giving me a new appreciation
[24:57]for these authors who can craft a story.
[25:00]And that includes you.
[25:01]I mean, my agent was very sweet
[25:04]because I sent her one.
[25:05]She's like, I don't think this really works.
[25:08]And I thought, yeah, you're right.
[25:09]But I was hoping that you would say it would
[25:11]so that I could stop working on it.
[25:12]But she rudely did not.
[25:15]But by the way, the whole first draft
[25:17]that I wrote with Princess Trimey,
[25:18]my editor was like, no, start to get started by.
[25:22]Sorry, like this is for much older kids.
[25:24]And I was like, not really.
[25:25]Like my kids are, you know, my kids liked it, you know,
[25:27]but hey, well, it is.
[25:29]And there's that element of like,
[25:30]are you sure I'm pretty sure I know?
[25:32]Yeah, I obviously know more than you.
[25:34]You know, right?
[25:35]Yes, but children's books are tricky,
[25:38]but I have started working on novels.
[25:41]Slowly I have about 50 pages
[25:43]that I've just been tinkering with.
[25:45]And it's fun to go back in
[25:50]and think about a, making everything up.
[25:53]I don't know if you found this to be true when you wrote blank,
[25:55]but I feel like I feel mad with power.
[25:58]Like I can make these people do anything.
[26:00]Anything can happen.
[26:01]I don't have to have any eye for what actually happened.
[26:04]And that's kind of freeing.
[26:06]But then also I'm realizing
[26:09]how much I respect novelists,
[26:11]especially who write longer books.
[26:13]I don't know how they keep track of everything.
[26:15]I mean, I know they make outlines and all the things,
[26:17]but I just, so right now I'm working on it,
[26:20]but it's mostly just an experiment
[26:22]in seeing if there's something there,
[26:24]which used to be like when people would tell me,
[26:26]oh, I wrote this book and then I put it in a drawer.
[26:29]That was like a nightmare scenario for me.
[26:31]I just remember thinking, what?
[26:33]I can't, that sounds like an incredible waste of time.
[26:36]So now I'm sort of doing the same thing.
[26:38]So we'll see, we'll see.
[26:40]It's mostly kind of in the magical realism realm
[26:43]commie somewhere in there.
[26:46]Amazing.
[26:47]Good for you.
[26:47]That's so fun.
[26:48]I mean, you can't just show up one day
[26:51]and write a perfect novel, like everyone I interview
[26:53]and I'm sure you do since you've done a lot
[26:54]of these interviews.
[26:55]Like you have to write practice books.
[26:58]Like that's what they are.
[26:58]They don't feel like practice books
[26:59]because it takes forever,
[27:00]but you can't just, you know, doctors don't just
[27:03]like perform brain surgery on day one.
[27:06]They have to like go through all this training
[27:07]and like working on, you know,
[27:10]the cadet, this is such a dark analogy.
[27:12]I should just stuff like,
[27:13]no, but you're exactly right.
[27:15]And thank God for their training, right?
[27:18]I would prefer someone not on their first day
[27:21]up in the brain.
[27:22]But yes, you're exactly right, though.
[27:24]I mean, that's the thing though
[27:26]for the perfectionists among us.
[27:27]And I think that's the other thing I should have mentioned
[27:29]about this story.
[27:31]You are looking at a perfectionist
[27:33]who would not have called herself a perfectionist.
[27:35]And that's kind of an interesting thing too
[27:37]for all this self awareness I have.
[27:39]It was also very revealing.
[27:41]And I think you read this in the book
[27:42]to find the ways I hid from myself.
[27:45]Because we have very ingrained stories
[27:48]about what a certain thing looks like
[27:51]and what we look like.
[27:52]So for me, I was in a perfectionist
[27:54]because I didn't care about looking perfect,
[27:56]but I definitely cared about doing everything perfectly.
[27:59]And so that was just as toxic for me
[28:04]to have this trait that I didn't understand.
[28:06]So much of it is asking yourself those questions.
[28:10]And you do, you discover so many things about you
[28:14]as you do anything, as you learn to write,
[28:16]as you learn to think about yourself,
[28:18]as you learn all these things.
[28:19]So apparently everything takes practice
[28:22]and you have to do it forever.
[28:23]And that I find that super annoying
[28:25]because I just wanna be good at things
[28:28]and then move on with my life.
[28:30]But apparently that's not happening.
[28:32]I'll join the campaign for making that happen.
[28:34]I think that was very convenient.
[28:36]But what you said earlier about the children's book,
[28:38]which just like jumped out
[28:40]because this is a whole big thing.
[28:42]Like the kid's school and everything is.
[28:43]You're like, I haven't perfected this children's book yet.
[28:47]And it's all of that, right?
[28:48]The whole power of yet, blah, blah, blah, blah,
[28:49]but it's just like I haven't figured out how to do this yet,
[28:53]but I'm working on it.
[28:54]And like we could all benefit
[28:56]from just having that attitude
[28:58]instead of being so hard on ourselves all the time.
[29:00]It's such a gracious way to walk through the world.
[29:03]And for people that don't know, you know,
[29:04]it's growth mindset.
[29:05]So this idea that you can say,
[29:08]I'm not good at that yet.
[29:10]And that is just such a,
[29:12]and that's the thing that I realized too in the book.
[29:15]Like the way that I care for my kids in the way,
[29:18]I'm attentive to their needs.
[29:19]I just didn't do that for myself.
[29:21]And so to turn it around and be able to say,
[29:24]Julie, you're just not good at that yet.
[29:26]Or that's not your strength.
[29:28]Or also, hey, good job.
[29:30]You did an amazing job at this or that,
[29:32]cause that's also something I'm not good at,
[29:34]is enjoying those wins when I have them.
[29:37]So that is part of it as well.
[29:38]Like just befriending yourself,
[29:41]befriending who you are today
[29:44]and who you would like to become
[29:46]and believing that there's space
[29:47]for both of those to exist.
[29:50]Amazing.
[29:50]Well, I am 100% sure
[29:52]that there are so many people
[29:53]who are gonna pick this up
[29:54]and feel much better and live happier lives
[29:58]after reading it, even if it's just.
[30:00]in these very small, as you said, little by little, yes, these small steps that they can implement
[30:06]and just knowing that you're out there and that they are not alone. And I am just so
[30:11]excited to see all these people out there taking the time for themselves that they need after
[30:16]reading this book and feeling the permission that basically the book is giving them to do so
[30:20]and that it's not just for mission, but it's actually sort of required.
[30:24]It is required. You're exactly right. And I'm just so happy to hear that.
[30:28]and Zibi, thank you for all your team and all you have done and who you are to me in my world.
[30:34]I am just, I'm so beyond grateful and it's a dream come true.
[30:39]Thank you, Julie. Thank you. Congratulations. Thank you.
[30:45]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:49]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:54]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:58]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact,
[31:02]Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[31:07]this fantastic intro and outro music.