Jamie Varon, MAIN CHARACTER ENERGY
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Jamie Varen is the author of Main Character Energy.
[1:06]I loved this book, by the way.
[1:08]Jamie is an author, branding expert, executive producer, and multi-passionate creative, living
[1:14]in Calabasas, California.
[1:16]Her nonfiction book, Radically Content, was published in 2020 with Korto and is currently
[1:20]being adapted into a feature film with lovely Mila LCD.
[1:24]She is the author of the sub-stack plot twist.
[1:27]Main Character Energy is her debut novel.
[1:29]Welcome, Jamie.
[1:30]Thank you so much for coming.
[1:31]I just don't have time to read Beck's to discuss Main Character Energy.
[1:35]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:37]I'm excited to chat.
[1:39]I love this book.
[1:40]I really loved it.
[1:41]I love your voice.
[1:42]I love the characters.
[1:43]I love the setting.
[1:45]I just, everything about it.
[1:47]The voice is so great.
[1:49]The message is so great.
[1:51]I felt like I needed to finish in time and yet I didn't want to like speed up my reading.
[1:57]Because any time I would try to like speed up just a little.
[1:59]I was like, oh no, no, no.
[2:00]I can't.
[2:01]I was going to miss that.
[2:02]So I've been really just enjoying every word of it, honestly.
[2:06]Really.
[2:07]Wow.
[2:08]Loving.
[2:09]That means so much to me.
[2:10]Thank you so much.
[2:11]I mean, it's definitely a labor of love.
[2:13]I just wrote it so deeply from my heart that I was like, I don't even know.
[2:20]I was just like, I don't even know what I'm really doing.
[2:24]I just need to write this story.
[2:26]And so it's really honestly like such an honor to hear that you love the voice because
[2:30]I think that's a really hard thing to bring forth, especially in a debut novel because
[2:35]you're just like, you're so uncertain if you, you don't even have the tools yet to
[2:41]know if like, did I write something that resonates?
[2:45]Do I know what I'm doing yet?
[2:47]And so that just like is really cool because I feel like I sharpen that a lot as a with
[2:52]my nonfiction work.
[2:54]And it was such a big leap to do fiction, but it was just, it's my love, like my joy
[2:59]to read fiction.
[3:00]And so I was like, I guess I got to write it.
[3:03]And so it just means a lot that year that you loved it because yeah, it was, it was
[3:08]a real big leap for me to write it.
[3:09]Well, I feel like it was also meta and I would love you to describe it for people listening.
[3:14]But the writer wanting to be a novelist trope, you know, like I love that because you
[3:19]kind of know that she did it in the end because you're reading the novel that you wrote
[3:23]and that there must be some part of you that's feeling the same way because it's your
[3:26]first novel.
[3:27]So it's like, you're the whole time you're like, well, it is so hard.
[3:31]And I feel like you captured as someone who I just wrote a novel myself and I'm trying to
[3:35]write my second novel, but I can't even do that anyway.
[3:37]It's so hard.
[3:38]You like totally get the headspace of what that feels like.
[3:42]So for any aspiring novelist or have written a novel or trying to write a new novel, like
[3:47]this is like the support group for almost for that as well on the inside.
[3:54]I mean, well, and I wrote it like, you know, in the September 2020, I was in lockdown.
[3:59]I was just, and I put all my fears of writing a novel into the book, you know, because I
[4:06]was like, I guess that's the only way to get rid of them is to just let this character
[4:12]say all, I think and say all the things that I feel of like all this doubt that and yet
[4:19]it's a thing you love to do, you know, like at, you know, you love books, you are obviously
[4:24]like you love writing.
[4:26]It's such a weird thing to be so afraid of the thing you love to do so much.
[4:32]Yes.
[4:33]You're like, how does that work?
[4:35]Like how do, and I really wanted to show that, I guess, you know, a big thing that was
[4:39]so important for me with main character energy was to show.
[4:42]Obviously, you know, when you write novels, there's like all these like plot, you've
[4:46]got to have the plot and you've got to have conflict, external conflict.
[4:50]But I was like, man, for me, so much of my conflict has been internal.
[4:55]Like I'm the one that's in my way and I need to see that in a book.
[5:00]I need to see someone who like they just keep getting in their way, you know, because
[5:05]that's how life is.
[5:06]Like when you doubt yourself, when you don't have that confidence yet, when you've been
[5:10]taken down a few notches, when you feel like a failure, when people haven't always lifted
[5:16]you up, you are the one standing in your way for a lot of it.
[5:20]Yes.
[5:21]And I think that was so important to show in that character journey because so much of
[5:26]our internal, our external world reflects like our internal world so often that I was
[5:32]like, man, I need to see that.
[5:34]I need to see how someone could be in France and like the most beautiful, one of the
[5:39]most beautiful places in the world and still be like, no, don't deserve it, can't
[5:43]enjoy it, can't even see that this is a blessing, that this is like beauty right in front
[5:48]of me.
[5:49]I'm just to, you know, doubt hold myself.
[5:52]Yeah.
[5:53]Well, that's why it's like so rewarding when there are moments like when she's leaving
[5:58]the Italian guy, I can't remember his name on that horrible date and then the time in
[6:02]the apartment and she comes back home and I think I feel like she was in a car or something
[6:05]and it was like, wow, I did not.
[6:09]This was not my fault, like I am not in a shame spiral because of what happened.
[6:14]Like I can see that this is external to me and this is someone else's behavior and I didn't
[6:19]cause it and like she's like, wow, I've never felt that way before and you're just like,
[6:24]oh, this is great.
[6:25]You know, that felt like such a monumental shift in the book and it's not like, and obviously
[6:30]there was a drama that happened, but the shift was more in her that was so rewarding.
[6:36]Right.
[6:37]Back up for a second and tell listeners what your book is about.
[6:41]Sorry.
[6:42]Okay.
[6:43]So, yeah.
[6:44]So excited to discuss.
[6:45]Main character energy is about a woman who's an aspiring novelist and she, her aunt who
[6:51]she meets in secret, leaves her passes away, sorry, passes away and then leaves her like
[6:57]of this mysterious sort of adventure where she has to get on a plane within two days and
[7:03]get to the south of France where Poppy, the main character discovers all these incredible
[7:08]things about her aunt that passed that she had this villa that she wants to, the queef
[7:13]to Poppy, but Poppy has to write her novel within six months and that sends her into
[7:19]a whole bit of total self doubt.
[7:23]And of course, there's a really charming, gorgeous man who's there to really make things
[7:29]interesting with Poppy and she struggles with her body image and a mom that has not been
[7:34]very supportive of her.
[7:36]And so she goes on this adventure of, you know, can she learn to accept and love herself
[7:42]and also do the thing that she loves most in the world and get out of her own way within
[7:48]this like six month timeframe in what I think is like one of the most beautiful parts
[7:53]of the world in the French Riviera.
[7:55]And thank you for taking us to so many different places.
[7:57]I'm like, okay, today we're going to cap for that and now we're going to knees and
[8:00]now we're going, I mean, it's so great.
[8:02]And like the way you even describe each of the settings, I mean, it's just so escapist.
[8:07]It's just like I literally feel like every time I open it, I get to discover a new place
[8:13]and I love the south of France to actually this morning.
[8:16]I interviewed the authors of the dark diaries and their latest one was in Paris.
[8:20]So I feel like my whole morning has been like, I'm like, this is wonderful.
[8:24]I can just escape when I'm not traveling anywhere.
[8:26]So it's great.
[8:27]Amazing.
[8:28]I mean, I'm actually in the south of France.
[8:30]Oh, you are?
[8:31]Yeah.
[8:32]We've been, my husband and I have been here for a couple weeks.
[8:34]We went to Tunisia to visit his family and now we're back and I'm in the same apartment
[8:39]that I was in when I like in 2018 when I got the idea for the book.
[8:45]And I was like, I was walking around here in the French Riviera and I was like, this
[8:49]is the most beautiful setting for a novel.
[8:52]Like I need to write something about this time.
[8:55]And then it just, I mean, took two years to get up the nerve to actually write it.
[9:01]But yeah, I'm here right now.
[9:03]So I'm like in my own little escape within these.
[9:05]Oh my gosh.
[9:06]I love it.
[9:07]How did you, what piece of the idea gave you the whole idea for the novel?
[9:11]Like what inspired it?
[9:12]Yeah.
[9:13]So I mean, the big thing was just being here in the south of France myself.
[9:19]And I was like, this is just such a beautiful backdrop for someone to be questioning themselves
[9:27]just because there's so much like glamour.
[9:30]And there's so much like, I don't know, there's so much built up around France.
[9:34]And so I really wanted to, I was just like, this is just such a backdrop for someone
[9:39]to really go on like a self-discovery journey because I had my own self-discovery here.
[9:45]Not the same as Poppy, but you know, it was very, I got the idea just because I thought
[9:50]it was so beautiful.
[9:52]And then after a while, I've always loved the idea of an inheritance because it's just
[9:57]such that fish out of water, you have to force someone out.
[10:00]out of their comfort zone.
[10:01]And I don't know how that all came together.
[10:04]It just, it came in pieces, you know?
[10:06]And the thing that I remember the most is that Poppy,
[10:09]who's, you know, the main character of main character energy,
[10:12]she was so clear to me.
[10:14]She started like speaking in her voice, you know?
[10:17]And I have like snippets of her little ideas
[10:21]and things and I was like, oh, okay.
[10:23]So she has a lot of anxiety.
[10:26]Okay, she is questioning herself a lot.
[10:29]And that's interesting to work with, you know?
[10:32]And it's always a bit of a risk when you do,
[10:37]when you do, you know,
[10:38]because so much of the novel writing advice
[10:42]is like a larger than life character
[10:44]who never really doubts themselves.
[10:46]And someone's got to put them,
[10:48]it's got to be aspirational.
[10:50]And I like kind of did the opposite.
[10:52]I was like, people have kind of got to hang on with Poppy.
[10:56]And she's sort of a mirror,
[10:58]I think for a lot of our insecurities.
[11:00]And I was just like, I just love her
[11:03]because I think like she's so honest
[11:05]when a lot of people wouldn't be.
[11:07]And I always, I love a really imperfect honest character.
[11:11]That's for me, my favorite thing.
[11:13]I'm like, as long as they're self aware,
[11:15]I'll go kind of anywhere with a character.
[11:18]They can take me into the depths of their, you know,
[11:23]whatever they're going through,
[11:24]as long as they're aware of it.
[11:26]I love that.
[11:27]Well, I have to say my one frustration with the book
[11:30]was like the sexual attention
[11:32]between all of her and Poppy.
[11:34]I was like, can we please just like get together?
[11:37]What the heck?
[11:38]Like I don't want to wait for this anymore.
[11:42]I didn't even know it was so many people have told me that
[11:45]and they're like, this was such a slow burn.
[11:48]Like, and I'm like, I thought that I burned it pretty.
[11:52]I'm like, oh yeah, okay, it was a slow,
[11:54]I love a slow burn though
[11:55]because it's so frustrating.
[11:58]And yet it's so satisfying when it finally,
[12:01]you know, you're like, oh man, they earn that.
[12:04]They earn that moment.
[12:05]No, I mean, I'm joking, but you know.
[12:07]Yeah, you could like cut it with a nice
[12:11]attention between them.
[12:12]And you know, even when you'd say these things like,
[12:15]you know, the like, the flash second,
[12:18]like the imperceptible, like shake of the head
[12:21]when they decide not to kick it.
[12:23]Like just those little moments and you're like,
[12:24]oh my gosh.
[12:25]No.
[12:26]That's amazing.
[12:27]Right.
[12:28]Yeah, exactly.
[12:30]Wait, so Jamie, you and I have to say
[12:32]I got your nonfiction book somewhere.
[12:34]It's well, I didn't have time to read that,
[12:35]but I wanted to be prepared and read that as well,
[12:37]but I just didn't have time.
[12:38]But anyway, so you started with nonfiction
[12:40]and that became really successful.
[12:42]Tell me about that and how that book came to be
[12:45]and changed your life and like all of that.
[12:47]Like where did it, what were you doing even before that book?
[12:49]Like where did you, where did you come from, Jamie?
[12:53]Oh my gosh.
[12:55]Well, Walnut Creek, California,
[12:57]June 15, 1985.
[12:59]I mean, I've just, I've honestly been writing online
[13:03]since I think as early as like 2008.
[13:06]I just have been sharing in various capacities.
[13:10]Sometimes it was freelance writing.
[13:11]Sometimes it was more personal essays.
[13:14]I am just an oversharer, you know,
[13:16]I like to bring people along with the journey
[13:19]and it wasn't until, you know,
[13:22]and I started like putting myself on Instagram,
[13:25]just like my little posts, like little things.
[13:27]And it just started to kind of, you know, grow
[13:31]and people were resonating with it and it was that,
[13:34]so it was not even to me like I was trying to help people.
[13:38]It wasn't even like, I'm not a guru,
[13:41]I'm not like a motivational speaker.
[13:43]I was just like, I was learning things about myself
[13:46]and I just write them down.
[13:47]and they were reminders to myself, you know,
[13:50]like don't forget this.
[13:51]Remember that you learned this in this moment.
[13:54]And so I would share it with people
[13:55]and, you know, it started to really resonate.
[13:58]And I was like, this is interesting.
[14:00]And then I started writing a newsletter
[14:01]when I was here in France in 2018.
[14:04]I started writing a newsletter every Friday
[14:07]and those essays just were just resonating with people
[14:10]in ways that I, like the more specific I got
[14:14]about what I was really going through
[14:16]and like the depth of what I was going through,
[14:19]the more people resonated with them.
[14:21]And I was like, I'm so confused.
[14:23]Like this whole time is just confusion
[14:24]because I never set out to do any of these things.
[14:28]I mean, I always wanted to write
[14:30]but I remember wanting to write
[14:32]since I was so young and thinking,
[14:34]that's not a real job.
[14:35]You don't get to do that, you know?
[14:38]Like, and I was a very practical.
[14:40]I grew up very practical.
[14:42]I grew up without, you know, not a lot of money.
[14:44]And so it was just very, you caught a like,
[14:47]get a job and go to school
[14:48]and, you know, get something that you can rely on.
[14:53]And I was like, writing is scary.
[14:55]So I just started like kind of as a side thing, you know?
[14:59]Hobby in a way.
[15:00]And once I started seeing those essays kind of,
[15:04]you know, take off, I was like, man,
[15:05]I would really love to write a book, you know?
[15:07]And, you know, I grew up where like, eat parade love came out,
[15:12]you know, and I was like,
[15:14]I need to write my memoirs, you know?
[15:17]Like, I have no life experience
[15:19]of which to write a memoir from,
[15:21]but I need to see my Elizabeth Gilbert, you know?
[15:24]And so I always thought that that's what seemed so cool to me.
[15:28]And I always wanted to write fiction
[15:30]but I thought that seemed impossible.
[15:32]Like, I was like, I, these are magicians, people
[15:36]that write these, you know, novels.
[15:39]And to me, writing a book that was just
[15:42]all of my most honest feelings
[15:45]of all the things that I've ever gone through
[15:48]was way easier to me than writing fiction.
[15:50]And I don't know why that is.
[15:52]I'm just like a very, you know,
[15:54]I don't mind talking about myself
[15:56]because I think it's like so helpful.
[15:58]I was not the person that it's hard to get me to go to therapy.
[16:01]I'm like, let's go.
[16:03]I'm like, same way.
[16:04]I don't, yeah.
[16:06]I'm like, whoever like gets against therapy,
[16:09]I'm like, I'm down for it constantly.
[16:11]I don't know.
[16:12]Most analyze our feelings all day.
[16:14]I am good at this.
[16:16]I love that.
[16:17]A plus, gold started to me, you know.
[16:20]So it was like in 2021, I was approached by Cordo
[16:25]by the editorial director of Cordo
[16:28]who published radically content.
[16:29]And she was like, I'm just such a huge fan of your writing.
[16:32]Like, even if I just get to talk to you as a person,
[16:35]like I would love to talk.
[16:37]But if you also wanted to do a book,
[16:39]we'll publish literally anything you will write.
[16:42]And I was like, what?
[16:44]And I had already been through like so many rejections.
[16:48]It was so bizarre to me.
[16:49]You know, it's just so weird how publishing works
[16:53]where you could get so rejected.
[16:56]And the timing is totally off.
[16:59]And then a year later, two years later,
[17:03]suddenly you're the person everyone's talking about.
[17:05]Like it's just, it's so, it's very wild.
[17:09]So the whole thing with timing is very interesting.
[17:12]So I had like kind of stopped thinking
[17:15]that I would write a book, honestly,
[17:17]at that point before she got in touch with me
[17:19]because I was like, I guess I want to write a book,
[17:22]but a book doesn't want to know.
[17:24]You know, it was just like, wow.
[17:26]You know, it was like, man.
[17:29]And I just didn't think that it was in the cards for me.
[17:33]You know, or maybe it was something way down the line.
[17:36]So yeah, then I got this book deal.
[17:39]And I just went, you know what?
[17:42]I'm gonna just write the hell out of this book.
[17:44]Like I'm gonna write radically content.
[17:46]And I'm gonna write it the way that I want to write it.
[17:48]You know, I didn't want to just write a self-help book.
[17:51]I wanted to write my experience like some memoir,
[17:54]some self-help, and just, you know,
[17:58]meet myself where I'm at and write
[17:59]where what I'm going through right now.
[18:02]And yeah, that came out April 2022.
[18:07]Definitely did better than everyone thought
[18:10]it was gonna do.
[18:11]We were all like, okay, radically content,
[18:14]doing some stuff out here.
[18:16]And then just a few weeks before the book came out,
[18:20]I got the book deal for main character energy.
[18:23]And that was just as wild to me.
[18:25]I mean, it's not like I don't have confidence.
[18:28]You just, I guess like, you know,
[18:30]if you look at publishing
[18:31]and if you look at people who are writing,
[18:33]it just seems like it's so impossible.
[18:37]You know, like it just, it's so hard to get anywhere.
[18:41]And I get discouraged easily, which is not my best.
[18:45]I'm like very resilient and I won't give up,
[18:48]but I will get discouraged for a while.
[18:50]You know, then I have to kind of pick myself back up.
[18:53]I'm not a, not one of those people
[18:55]where it's like, never give up.
[18:57]I'm like, what if I did give up though?
[19:00]That would be nice, but just relax.
[19:03]And so I end up not giving up.
[19:06]And yeah, it was just like in a blink,
[19:08]it felt like 10 years of waiting,
[19:11]10 years of writing, outlines of, you know,
[19:15]multiple agents, multiple rejections,
[19:18]so many things that just were not lining up.
[19:21]And you know, I went through the weird thing
[19:24]where a publisher wouldn't give me a book deal,
[19:27]but I had hundreds of people in my messages going,
[19:31]when are you gonna write a book?
[19:32]Do you have a book?
[19:33]Do you have a book?
[19:33]And I was like, I don't know what to do about this.
[19:37]You know, I'm like, and I was before,
[19:40]I got, before that, before Cordo got in touch with me.
[19:44]I was like, I'm gonna self-publish.
[19:46]I guess if that's my only option,
[19:49]or I'm not gonna do it, or I don't know.
[19:51]I was thinking of all different options.
[19:54]And then to then now be here,
[19:57]talking about my novel that's, you know, came up.
[20:00]Oh, it's just trippy, you know?
[20:03]And, you know, even with my novel,
[20:05]I wanted to add some of those nonfiction,
[20:10]self-healthy type of things into the book
[20:13]and really have her, like I said at the beginning,
[20:15]go on this like emotional internal journey
[20:19]as well as the external journey.
[20:21]And I think doing nonfiction
[20:24]and writing the way that I did for so long
[20:26]and being so self-aware
[20:28]and messaging with so many people
[20:30]about all our different feelings and emotions
[20:33]and interior lives, it really equipped me
[20:36]to add that layer to my novels,
[20:40]which I think is something that I'll always do
[20:43]because I just think how our world feels
[20:47]and how we interact with the world.
[20:49]Often so comes from our internal experiences
[20:52]and our past experiences that to leave that out,
[20:56]always felt a little.
[20:57]I think that was maybe the missing piece
[21:00]and that's how I was able to write the novels,
[21:03]because it never really vibed with me
[21:06]that I could just, like just external plot points
[21:09]happening all the time.
[21:12]I was like, but what about what's happening
[21:14]in their head, you know, in this character's head?
[21:17]And I think I had to kind of give myself permission
[21:20]to write that way too,
[21:21]because it goes against some of the more popular advice
[21:25]with novels where it's like, you know,
[21:27]don't have a lot of exposition
[21:29]or don't have a lot of like interior,
[21:31]and I'm like, those are the things that I want the most
[21:33]when I read a book, you know?
[21:35]Like what's she thinking?
[21:37]Or what's the character really thinking in this moment
[21:39]instead of having to maybe kind of parse it out
[21:41]a little too much?
[21:43]So yeah, I mean, that's the whole,
[21:45]I mean, that's a condensed journey.
[21:48]But yeah, I mean, I just, I think this all kind of happened
[21:51]in a really roundabout way,
[21:54]that I didn't, you know, it didn't happen
[21:57]the way that I thought that it would.
[21:59]And I think that's so many people's experience
[22:02]because you're just, I didn't go straight out of school.
[22:06]And you know, I remember thinking,
[22:09]I wanna be a published author by 21.
[22:12]And then my first book came out, I think when I was,
[22:15]I was like, 36.
[22:17]And I was like, that's a kick in the pants, you know?
[22:20]And that's fine.
[22:21]Like it's fine.
[22:22]I was actually like really proud of myself
[22:23]that I didn't let that dream go.
[22:26]But I really did think that it would happen
[22:29]a lot earlier than it did.
[22:30]And I finally, in my 30s got to the point where I was like,
[22:34]well, I don't think it's gonna happen
[22:35]unless that make it happen.
[22:37]Like I got it right, I got to get writing.
[22:39]A lot, you know, I think that's what changed.
[22:42]I wrote the difference between 10 years of wishing
[22:47]and then five years of putting my head down
[22:50]and doing the work is so,
[22:53]it's a vastly different experience that I had.
[22:56]I feel like you're like,
[22:58]we have so many things in common.
[23:00]Like with so many similarities in this journey.
[23:02]And it's just so nice to hear you say it all,
[23:05]you know, because the timing, it's so frustrating.
[23:08]You know, it's like all these rejections and proposals.
[23:12]I have like piles of rejected proposals, you know?
[23:16]And now all of a sudden, I'm 47 and my editor's like,
[23:19]okay, where's your next novel?
[23:21]And I'm like, are you kidding me?
[23:22]Like, and now, you know what I mean?
[23:24]Like, I'm like, this would be,
[23:26]but now I'm so bit, anyway, it's just so crazy
[23:30]because nothing in publishing is easy
[23:33]and nothing is straightforward,
[23:35]except for like the stories you hear all the time.
[23:36]And then I'm just like jealous, you know?
[23:39]I'm like, okay, 25 year old with this major book deal.
[23:43]Like, I wanted to be like the youngest novelist in the world
[23:46]and I haven't novel coming out at 47.
[23:48]So, you know, you just don't know.
[23:50]No, and I want it to be the on Jesus.
[23:52]Yeah, totally myself.
[23:54]Yeah, of course.
[23:54]Me too.
[23:55]We were the gifted girls.
[23:56]Totally.
[23:57]Yeah, totally.
[23:59]Yeah, I mean, and I look at that.
[24:01]See, for me, I'm to the point now where I hear
[24:04]your first novel coming out at 47
[24:06]and I just saw all these like incredible things
[24:08]of the publishing arm that you're worth that you created
[24:11]and everything.
[24:12]Oh, thank you.
[24:13]And it's like, to me, that's so inspiring.
[24:15]I'm like, oh, God, there's so much time too.
[24:19]Like, I could just, you know, we're both getting started.
[24:22]And because I really, I talk a lot about the age thing
[24:26]where it's like, you get this idea that at 30,
[24:29]if you don't have it all figured out,
[24:31]if it's not like locked in and that's what you're doing,
[24:35]you're not gonna make it ever.
[24:37]And it's just so, I think that's so backwards.
[24:40]And so I have to remind myself constantly, you know,
[24:43]even in my own head, I'm like, you're 38,
[24:46]you still got time, you're okay.
[24:49]Like, and at 38, still yeah.
[24:51]I'm like, oh my gosh, it's just still like, you know,
[24:54]all these things.
[24:55]So, but I look at like anyone who's just continuing
[24:59]down that journey and continuing,
[25:01]because timing is such a kick in the pants,
[25:04]because you're just like, you could have it already.
[25:07]And like, I felt ready for so many years
[25:11]that it wasn't happening.
[25:13]Yes, I feel like the same way.
[25:15]Yeah, I feel like, so I'm ready and what's happening.
[25:20]I feel like, you know, I felt the same way
[25:22]about having kids, you know, like,
[25:23]I really wanted to have my third child
[25:25]and she obviously just did not wanna come
[25:27]and it wasn't till I gave up that I ended up having
[25:29]this kid, like six years later.
[25:30]But it's like, I don't know.
[25:33]I feel like with some of these things
[25:34]and I am not a Zen person, like that everything happens
[25:38]for a reason, you know?
[25:39]And I get the sense like, you know,
[25:41]we have that frustration and drive mixed
[25:43]with like, you know, sensitivity
[25:45]and what you said about getting discouraged.
[25:48]Like, I tried to sell a novel
[25:49]and I'm sorry to talk with myself,
[25:50]but I tried to sell a novel and I was 25.
[25:52]And I like couldn't go back to it for like 15 years.
[25:55]You know, because I was like,
[25:56]that was that hurt so much, yeah.
[25:58]Oh my gosh.
[25:59]I know it.
[26:00]I think we don't talk.
[26:01]I actually heard this from Katherine Center.
[26:04]She, I love her.
[26:05]By the way, I love her.
[26:06]I love her.
[26:07]Love her. Yeah.
[26:08]And she said something similar.
[26:10]She was like, I get discouraged really easily.
[26:13]And I was like, man, that is so permissive
[26:15]for this day, something like that.
[26:17]Because I compare, I get discouraged.
[26:20]I have certain people.
[26:22]I can't follow their careers.
[26:23]There's certain things I don't need to know about.
[26:26]And I just have to accept that
[26:27]because I am kind of, I try to be Zen
[26:31]where I'm like, okay, timing is what it is.
[26:34]Okay, I trust in that.
[26:35]But at the same time, I'm like,
[26:38]it's, I need to be on my path.
[26:40]And if I see all these other things
[26:43]and I see someone who is the 25-year-old on Juneau,
[26:47]I'm like, good for them,
[26:48]but I don't need to be, you know,
[26:51]I don't need to expose myself to this.
[26:54]I think that's the one thing about the internet.
[26:56]That's, I mean, there's a lot of things.
[26:58]But that's one thing that I'm like,
[27:00]I don't need to come across these people
[27:03]on a constant basis.
[27:05]And because I do, I get discouraged.
[27:07]I think I'm like, maybe I should give up.
[27:09]Maybe that's what I'm supposed to be doing
[27:11]is giving up instead of, right, you know,
[27:14]we said being persistent.
[27:16]But, you know, and I don't have those thoughts
[27:18]when I don't get compared, you know,
[27:20]when I don't compare, I'm just like a lot more clear.
[27:24]So yeah, I think that it's happening to more people,
[27:27]but we, there's a sort of cultural, you know,
[27:31]what you're supposed to say.
[27:33]Like, I'm not gonna give up
[27:35]and this won't discourage me in a while.
[27:38]It's like, oh, no, well, there's also,
[27:41]I'm not gonna give up, but then,
[27:43]I don't know, I got to a point where I was like,
[27:45]but maybe it's just not gonna happen for me.
[27:47]You know, it's just not gonna happen.
[27:49]Maybe I'm just never gonna write a book, you know.
[27:52]But then I was like, man, I'm still gonna try.
[27:54]That's where I get to, right?
[27:57]I'm gonna torture myself and feel horrible.
[28:00]But then at the end of the day, I'll be like,
[28:02]and then I'll, I end up at my computer
[28:04]for the public and document going.
[28:06]Yeah, I might as well.
[28:08]Yeah.
[28:09]I mean, what else am I gonna do?
[28:09]Yeah.
[28:10]Oh my gosh.
[28:12]Well, Jamie, I'm sorry.
[28:13]I feel like I could talk to you about this all day.
[28:15]I know.
[28:16]And Poppy too, like Poppy just like all those thoughts.
[28:18]I'm like, I wanna just sit down and talk to you.
[28:20]Talk to Poppy.
[28:21]Like, you know, it's such a validating thing
[28:25]in a creative field where it's so, you know,
[28:28]it's just, you know, anyway.
[28:31]Thank you.
[28:33]Of course, thank you.
[28:35]This I could talk to you all day for sure.
[28:36]I'm sure we could definitely get into a lot of things.
[28:40]Yes, but there's so much we didn't even talk about.
[28:42]So body image.
[28:43]Oh my God.
[28:43]Like, okay, next time to be continued somehow,
[28:46]somewhere I could figure.
[28:47]Okay.
[28:48]Thanks, Jamie.
[28:49]Thank you.
[28:50]Okay, bye-bye.
[28:52]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[28:54]Don't have time to read books.
[28:56]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[28:58]at Zibi Owens and at Moms.
[28:59]Don't have time to read books.
[29:01]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[29:03]and sign up for my virtual book club
[29:05]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[29:08]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[29:10]for the Sound Editing.
[29:12]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:13]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.