Elaine Roth, THE MIDNIGHT GARDEN
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[1:03]Elaine Roth is the author of The Midnight Garden, a novel.
[1:07]Elaine is a New Jersey based author who writes about young widowhood grief and dating as a
[1:11]solo parent.
[1:12]Her work has appeared on HuffPost Refinery29 Modern Loss and Scary Mami.
[1:17]Her story was also featured on people.com and in The New York Times.
[1:21]She has two kids and an adorably neurotic rescue dog who keeps her busy when she's not
[1:24]writing or teaching Pilates.
[1:26]You can read her story and reconstructing a year in hope.com or connect with Elaine on Instagram
[1:31]at this young widow life.
[1:33]Welcome, Elaine.
[1:34]Thank you so much for coming on mom.
[1:36]Don't have time to read books to discuss your debut novel, The Midnight Garden.
[1:40]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:42]Your book was really, really good.
[1:44]I really love your writing voice.
[1:47]I love the characters, the story, the emotion.
[1:51]Like it was really good.
[1:52]Oh, thank you so, so much.
[1:53]It means a lot to hear.
[1:55]I read the whole thing and yeah, I really enjoyed it.
[1:57]You don't know necessarily from the cover what you're getting, not that I don't
[2:01]love the cover.
[2:02]It's beautiful.
[2:03]But you just don't know.
[2:04]It's because it's almost like a happy, well, you know what, I'll let you describe the
[2:08]book.
[2:09]Go ahead.
[2:10]Elaine, what is the Midnight Garden about?
[2:12]I mean, they garden.
[2:13]It's a story of a young widow's journey as she's trying to find forgiveness in a path forward.
[2:18]Their elements of magical realism involved.
[2:21]There's an element of second chances and romance and the kind of the courage that it takes
[2:26]to move forward after you've suffered this incredible loss.
[2:29]That's like a great summer, but it's pretty good, yeah, it's pretty good.
[2:35]It's asking the same question of can you find love again after you've lost the one you
[2:40]love unconditionally?
[2:41]Yeah.
[2:42]And what happens next?
[2:44]And I think it's, I mean, I hope that it's also asking the question of not even just can
[2:48]you find love again, but can you live again?
[2:50]Yes.
[2:51]Yes.
[2:52]Does it feel safe enough to move forward or even if it doesn't feel safe, can you move
[2:56]forward?
[2:57]Yes.
[2:59]And you have this one line, let me just read it if you don't mind, you have this one
[3:03]line.
[3:04]I needed only my voice, my forgiveness, my permission, my ability to believe in myself for
[3:10]two years.
[3:11]I buried my head in the sand, hid from life and played it safe, built a world where
[3:15]I had as little to lose as possible.
[3:17]I still lost because maybe it was never about building a life safe from loss.
[3:22]Maybe that's impossible regardless of how small you make your life.
[3:26]The universe isn't safe.
[3:28]That things happen to good people and none of that is a reason to stop living.
[3:32]Maybe the real work isn't finding a way to be brave enough to live every bit of the life
[3:37]that's left.
[3:39]So good.
[3:40]Thank you.
[3:42]Really meaningful.
[3:43]I had a feeling that that was going to be a couple of friends have screenshotted that
[3:47]part to me like, oh my goodness, I'm sending this along.
[3:50]So I'm glad that it's resonating with people because I hate something I believe.
[3:53]I hate to be predictable.
[3:55]No.
[3:57]But I really love that part.
[4:00]You lost your husband.
[4:01]Tell me about, can you talk about that?
[4:03]I mean, I know that what is your character's name again?
[4:05]Hope, of course, hope and will.
[4:07]Hope doesn't like having to answer it and hope doesn't like hearing I'm so sorry and all
[4:11]of that.
[4:12]So I won't say any of that.
[4:13]But if you feel comfortable and it's not triggering to talk about.
[4:16]No, not at all.
[4:17]And it is something not that I enjoy doing, but I do feel because I have this, like,
[4:23]I had this place to write and speak about it, that it gives me a voice that I can give
[4:28]to other young widows.
[4:29]So I never mind asking answering questions about it.
[4:32]So Matt was diagnosed with brain cancer in 2016.
[4:36]We actually, there were reasons that he said he might be one of the people who defies
[4:40]all the odds is youth, some of the genetic markers, all its long story short, which I've
[4:45]written about extensively.
[4:47]He, after 20 months, he lost his battle with brain cancer.
[4:50]I was 35 years old and my kids were six and eight.
[4:54]So all of a sudden, it's kind of the shock to my system because we just really believed
[5:00]everything was going to be fine.
[5:02]And then when it wasn't, it was kind of this trying to figure out how to navigate this
[5:05]life that we had never planned for.
[5:07]And I know you've been a vocal writer about this topic and young loss, young widowed
[5:15]all of it.
[5:17]When did you take to the page?
[5:18]Has this been something you've been doing your whole life?
[5:20]Like is this, did you have any reservations about it?
[5:24]Tell me the order of things.
[5:26]So it's interesting because I always wanted to be a writer and I started writing novels
[5:31]right after my son was born.
[5:32]He's my second one.
[5:33]And I said to Matt, yeah, I retired from tax law and I said, okay, I want to go back to writing.
[5:39]It's my first, it's my passion.
[5:40]I want to go back to it.
[5:41]So I started writing there.
[5:43]And I continued writing throughout his illness.
[5:46]But it was actually after he died that I started writing for myself in a way just to kind
[5:52]of get the story out of my head.
[5:54]And then that, from that moment, I kind of feel like, right, I kind of figured out what
[5:59]I wanted to say when I was writing, if that makes sense.
[6:03]So that's when I started writing about, you know, my childhood obviously, but parenting
[6:08]and a lot of the personal essays came in.
[6:10]And then I used that into to go back into the novel writing.
[6:15]Wow.
[6:16]So you had never written a full-on novel in its entirety or you had tried or would.
[6:20]I had tried some pretty terrible ones that hopefully will never see the light of day.
[6:25]But they were all stepping stones to learning.
[6:28]But I had never written a personal essay until, until just a few years ago.
[6:33]Well, I mean, I don't want to, I have to say I'm sorry for your last even though you
[6:37]don't like that.
[6:38]No, thank you.
[6:40]You know, I feel terrible that you had to live through that.
[6:42]And it's wonderful that you have turned it into something that can help so many other people.
[6:46]It's a real gift.
[6:48]And I know that writing can help both you, it's like when you give a gift, you get something
[6:53]out of it, like anything, like even the holidays giving it right, like you get something
[6:56]out of giving.
[6:57]Yes.
[6:58]And then other people get it from receiving, but you know, it's lovely.
[7:01]You could do that with this experience.
[7:04]Yeah, it is.
[7:06]I really started writing it just to get the story out of my head and for my kids to understand
[7:11]because with brain cancer, and they were so young, you don't understand why the person,
[7:16]why your dad all of a sudden isn't acting the way he was always acting, why he's saying
[7:20]thing he'd never said before.
[7:22]So it was really for them to understand what was happening.
[7:25]But then I kept getting messages from young widows who were reading my blog and some of my
[7:29]writing.
[7:30]Thank you for putting this into words.
[7:31]I didn't know how to do that.
[7:34]I don't know that it really meant a lot to hear that because I was glad that I didn't
[7:38]feel alone.
[7:39]They didn't feel alone.
[7:40]I don't know.
[7:41]There was some like a nice kind of exchange of energy that we could do for each other.
[7:45]I have to introduce you.
[7:46]We have an author, Emma Gray, who wrote The Last Love Note, which is similar.
[7:49]It's a young mom, well, she wasn't a mom in this, but you know, a young, I think you'll have
[7:55]a lot in common.
[7:56]Oh, I would love that.
[7:57]I'll introduce you offline.
[7:58]Oh, I would love that.
[7:59]I've seen her book actually.
[8:01]But I've seen it in the book world, and I'm excited to read it.
[8:04]Yeah, I feel like there's this whole network of, which I'm sure you're tapped into, but
[8:10]maybe you're not.
[8:11]I don't know.
[8:12]I'm just learning about myself, but I've read a lot of books by young widows.
[8:15]I don't know why.
[8:16]I feel like my heart just, I love, I mean, not to say I love reading my stories, but, you
[8:21]know, like I just, I don't know.
[8:24]There's something so universal and so beautiful about that authentic experience, even when
[8:29]people turn it into fiction.
[8:31]So like, Melissa Gould, Whittaway, should have you read that book?
[8:34]I don't know if I want that one, or I'm heard of it.
[8:36]I'm going to put like a group chat together here, or something, because I feel like, and
[8:39]then there's one called Future Widow, and there's Nora McInnerney, have you read her work?
[8:45]Yes.
[8:46]Obviously.
[8:47]Okay.
[8:48]And she was, you know, her, Ian died of brain cancer.
[8:50]Wasn't his name Ian?
[8:51]Denise?
[8:52]I can't even write up.
[8:53]I'm not sure, but I'm, she was the one who started the, Aaron, not Ian, Aaron, Aaron.
[8:57]Anyway.
[8:58]I did not talk about your book, but I do feel that there's this new, actually, maybe
[9:02]I'll just do an article about this now that I think about these wonderful books about
[9:06]young widowhood and, and what it can teach all of us about living better lives and loving
[9:12]more in the moment and not complaining so much about the little stupid things.
[9:18]You know, all of that is really important.
[9:20]It's a terrible price to pay to learn those lessons.
[9:23]So it's nice to pay and forward.
[9:24]So other people don't have to pay the same price to learn them.
[9:28]And you were thinking about your characters and even how you had Will who came home because
[9:35]his mother had, you know, also grieving the loss of a husband who sort of fled town and
[9:41]he had to come back and manage the inn and he has the brother who's really struggling.
[9:45]And then hope who is reeling from her own loss, although her husband dies in a car accident.
[9:52]You have them both in their sort of hometown, right?
[9:55]Back dealing with this small town where everybody knows everything about each other.
[10:00]much so that when one new person moves in down by the river
[10:03]may, it's like a whole big, it's a whole big to do.
[10:05]And she already knows somehow everything about everybody
[10:08]and everyone knows everything about her.
[10:09]Tell me about putting this in this environment
[10:12]and the setting and how that was important.
[10:15]I wanted to pull in a little bit of my experience.
[10:19]Very exaggerated for the story
[10:21]because I live in a small town
[10:23]and the minute Mack ought sick,
[10:25]it seemed like the entire town knew.
[10:27]I couldn't go anywhere without people
[10:29]telling me, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry.
[10:32]But there was also this element of everyone
[10:34]that also rallying around our family
[10:37]and then after he died,
[10:38]trying to be there as much as they could for us
[10:40]and the way that they knew how.
[10:43]You know, there were also the elements of people
[10:45]trying to say the right thing
[10:46]and saying something that afterwards
[10:49]when you walk away, you're like, wow,
[10:50]that was definitely not the right thing, but the try.
[10:54]So I really wanted to bring that experience in
[10:56]because I think it's so common for people.
[10:58]You know, especially in this day and age
[11:01]that you have these little communities
[11:03]and they're trying to also respond to this loss in their way.
[11:08]It's so, I mean, I was gonna say it too funny.
[11:10]It wasn't funny at all.
[11:11]But when we lost my mother-in-law,
[11:14]the temple, like my temple sent a care package to us
[11:18]and I was like, oh my gosh,
[11:19]I'm either person getting the temple care package.
[11:22]Now, like that's me, it's very odd
[11:25]to be aware of, usually I'm like trying to help
[11:28]put things together, you know.
[11:30]Okay, like now you just have to receive that gift
[11:36]and sort of deal with, you know, anyway.
[11:39]It's strange to be the person in the center of the storm.
[11:41]Thank you.
[11:42]Thank you for saying that.
[11:43]Yes.
[11:44]It's strange to be the person in the center of the storm.
[11:46]That is a great expression.
[11:48]Yes, it really is.
[11:49]And yeah, having watched so many storms
[11:51]from inside looking out the window.
[11:53]Right, right, exactly.
[11:54]What has been the experience since the book came out?
[11:57]I know it's a recent release and now it's in the world.
[12:00]Like how do you feel about it?
[12:01]How have people been responding?
[12:03]How has it been for you emotionally?
[12:05]The best part about it has been,
[12:07]has been watching my kids reaction to it.
[12:10]They, they're so proud of it.
[12:12]They're so excited.
[12:14]My son came home the day after the book was released
[12:16]and said, somehow everyone at school knows
[12:18]you released a book and this kid dapped me up.
[12:21]I think that's a high five now.
[12:23]Yep, yep.
[12:24]How old are your kids now?
[12:25]They're in sixth grade and eighth grade.
[12:26]So my son just turned 12 and my daughter's 13.
[12:30]Well, yeah, so I mean,
[12:31]so that has been seeing their reaction
[12:34]kind of showing them like, oh, you can do it.
[12:36]You can follow your dreams even when these terrible things
[12:39]happen.
[12:40]That has been fun.
[12:41]You know, it's been fun to see strangers' reactions
[12:45]to the book because I know it and my family has read it.
[12:48]And obviously they're gonna tell me they love it.
[12:50]So it's fun to see, to hear what strangers think.
[12:54]So it's just, it's been a lot of fun to see it.
[12:56]Not as big of an emotional roller coaster
[12:58]as I thought it would be.
[12:59]I think I kind of had prepared for it in a lot of ways.
[13:03]Does this inspire you now to write more novels?
[13:06]Have you?
[13:07]Yes, absolutely.
[13:10]Have you already written another one
[13:11]or where are you in that path?
[13:13]I am right at the very end of the next novel,
[13:16]the first draft of it.
[13:18]Can you see any time about it?
[13:20]A little bit.
[13:21]It'll be focused more on two sisters.
[13:24]I'm hoping if I do a correct way,
[13:25]it'll pull in the same elements of magical realism
[13:29]and little bits here in the aerial deal with grief
[13:32]and forgive this.
[13:33]Those are just themes that are rolling around in my head
[13:35]all the time.
[13:37]Interesting.
[13:38]We need, we need Maeve to help with the rain
[13:40]around the country.
[13:41]We need to like bring her to help with that.
[13:44]Help with that.
[13:45]And the funny thing is actually one of the biggest
[13:47]reader comments I've received from strangers
[13:50]is we want the next May's book.
[13:52]We want her prequel.
[13:53]We want her story.
[13:54]Oh, that's interesting.
[13:55]Which is super fun to hear and a surprise
[13:58]that I didn't expect.
[13:59]So I'll have to figure that one out and write that.
[14:02]Yeah, I kind of want the continuation of Will and Hope.
[14:05]Oh, I do.
[14:06]I want to keep seeing them to get added out.
[14:09]I won't say anything about that.
[14:11]I would like that.
[14:12]I had so many books and write where real life might begin.
[14:17]The next phase, then what happens?
[14:19]So then it's almost even more complicated than when real life
[14:23]comes in.
[14:25]Oh, my goodness.
[14:26]What was your writing process like for the one you've just
[14:29]basically finished?
[14:30]And this one, like where do you like to write?
[14:32]What's your, do you have hours you write or habits
[14:35]or superstitions or a place you love to go?
[14:39]So I am a big, I'm an early riser, luckily.
[14:42]So I started writing and I've just continued it
[14:44]in early morning.
[14:45]I wake up around five.
[14:47]So my best writing time is before my kids wake up.
[14:50]Because the minute they wake up, I feel like I don't know
[14:52]how to write sentences anymore.
[14:53]I can barely get the correct word out.
[14:55]My head is just scrambled.
[14:56]So I wake up.
[14:57]I get, I have my coffee set up already.
[15:00]So I just go downstairs, grab it, and then come upstairs
[15:04]and write.
[15:04]And it's just such a peaceful time, it's
[15:07]a nice way to start the day.
[15:09]And then what I'm really trying to get my word count in.
[15:11]I actually end up writing in my car.
[15:13]I drive, wherever I drive the kids, I drop them off.
[15:16]I write, pick them up, take them to the next spot,
[15:18]write in the car, yup.
[15:20]Good for you.
[15:21]That's always my question.
[15:22]Yeah, I have a little desk actually
[15:24]that hooks up to the steering wheel.
[15:26]It doesn't work as well as it sounds like it should.
[15:28]But, wow.
[15:30]Do you have a picture of that?
[15:31]Is it on social or anything?
[15:32]I have to look.
[15:34]Maybe for maybe years ago, I posted it when I first got it.
[15:37]But there are a lot of pictures of me on social media
[15:40]in my car.
[15:41]And that's where I'm writing, that's where I'm living.
[15:46]Do your kids play sports.
[15:47]Is that why you're all over the place or what?
[15:48]Just regular activities are right.
[15:50]Yeah, just regular activities are not
[15:52]particularly sporty, just regular activities
[15:54]and play dates and whatever they're doing.
[15:56]Or not play dates.
[15:57]I'm not allowed to call it that hangouts now.
[15:59]I know.
[15:59]I'm not allowed to either.
[16:01]I know.
[16:01]I'm not allowed to either.
[16:02]And I still do it.
[16:03]And I'm like, so sorry.
[16:06]That's the one good thing these days about living
[16:09]in New York City is that I don't have to drive everywhere.
[16:12]You know, I'm not a good driver.
[16:16]I can do it.
[16:17]It's not my favorite.
[16:18]I get very easily distracted.
[16:20]But I miss about living in the city.
[16:21]I hate driving all the time.
[16:23]Are you from New Jersey originally?
[16:25]I'm from Rockland County.
[16:27]So right outside the city.
[16:28]And then lived for after college for years in the city.
[16:32]And then it was once the kids were born
[16:33]that we moved to New Jersey.
[16:34]And you were a lawyer.
[16:36]Did you always want to be a lawyer?
[16:37]Oh, no.
[16:38]I wanted to be a writer.
[16:40]And then I thought that was unrealistic.
[16:41]And I thought that was unrealistic.
[16:44]So I was actually went to Syracuse for public relations.
[16:47]And I did that for a bit.
[16:49]And then I realized public relations was a lot of work
[16:52]for very little money.
[16:53]So my uncle was like, do tax law for sale?
[16:56]Is he a tax lawyer?
[16:57]He is not.
[16:58]But his dream has always been to be a lawyer.
[17:00]So I think I fulfilled his dream for a little bit.
[17:03]And then so I popped around for a little bit.
[17:06]But it's always come back to writing.
[17:08]Interesting.
[17:10]With the writing itself and getting your story out there.
[17:13]And finally, achieving the dream that you've had all along.
[17:17]Like what has that felt like?
[17:19]And what does it inspire you to do?
[17:22]I don't know.
[17:23]Like just talk a little bit about achieving your dreams
[17:25]and how you didn't give up on them.
[17:27]I mean, it definitely inspires me to keep going to say,
[17:31]like, all right, what's the next thing?
[17:32]What else?
[17:33]I don't want to be done is it's kind of the overwhelming feeling
[17:38]is I think I think I can do more.
[17:41]And I want to try to do more.
[17:42]And I would be disappointed in myself if I just said, OK,
[17:45]I'm done.
[17:47]But to be here feels a little bit.
[17:50]It feels like I can think back to myself
[17:51]when I was eight years old.
[17:54]And now it didn't feel possible for a kid growing up.
[17:57]The way I was growing up, which I see my, that's,
[17:59]you know, you don't get to live that life.
[18:02]So it feels very exciting to finally be here.
[18:05]Amazing.
[18:07]When you were going through the depths of grief,
[18:11]how did you keep going with two kids?
[18:14]Like what was that?
[18:15]And were there mornings you just couldn't
[18:17]do it?
[18:18]And like, how did you get through that time of your life?
[18:22]The way that I describe it, and I can only see this in retrospect,
[18:26]is I never had trouble waking up and getting up
[18:29]and going for them, because I knew that they needed it.
[18:33]But I really think in a lot of ways, I just sort of,
[18:36]I feel like I'd like shut us down as how I think,
[18:38]is I just really focused on getting the three of us
[18:41]into this very solid space.
[18:44]So I know we weren't making that many social plans.
[18:46]We weren't doing that many things.
[18:48]We were really just together, you know,
[18:51]and they were going for play dates at that time
[18:52]of logical play dates.
[18:55]But a lot of it was that we were just sort of together.
[18:58]And I think that was a lot of the way that I did it.
[19:02]And then little by little, I feel like I can picture
[19:04]when our world started to open up.
[19:06]And then obviously COVID hit, and it shut back down.
[19:09]But yeah.
[19:10]Oh my gosh, you for a thing.
[19:13]This is so much.
[19:14]Yeah.
[19:15]Do you have favorite flowers?
[19:17]I do.
[19:18]I really love hydrangeas.
[19:19]You do.
[19:20]Those are my favorites.
[19:21]Hydrangeas and Orchids, which I cannot keep alive.
[19:25]I will kill any Orchids that comes into my house
[19:27]pretty quickly, but I love them.
[19:29]Thank you.
[19:30]Thank you.
[19:31]Okay, well, do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[19:34]The biggest piece of advice would be,
[19:36]it's so cliche to say, but don't quit.
[19:39]Just keep trying.
[19:40]I would say, take every bit of critique and put it to use.
[19:46]You don't have to agree with it.
[19:47]You can disagree.
[19:48]But think through why you got that critique.
[19:51]If you agree, if you don't agree,
[19:53]what you could do to address it in the way
[19:55]that feels right for you.
[19:57]I say, don't be embarrassed.
[20:00]about taking writing classes, don't be embarrassed by joining
[20:03]critique groups, let yourself be terrible for a while.
[20:05]Just just do it if you want to.
[20:07]Just keep going.
[20:08]Amazing.
[20:09]I love that.
[20:10]Elaine, thank you.
[20:11]Thank you for coming on.
[20:12]Thank you for your book.
[20:14]Again, I really loved it.
[20:15]I'm having all these ideas, as I'm talking to you,
[20:17]about connecting you to all these people
[20:19]and some sort of article or something.
[20:22]So I love that.
[20:23]I love that.
[20:24]And we'll do something.
[20:25]But I really, you know, it's great to read something
[20:28]that's so accessible and relatable and just like authentic.
[20:33]Both from the man's point of view and hopes
[20:36]like Will's point of view too, right?
[20:38]It's there are many kinds of loss
[20:40]and there are many kinds of ways to rebound.
[20:43]So anyway, congratulations.
[20:45]Thank you so much.
[20:46]Thank you so much.
[20:47]Thank you so much.
[20:49]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[20:51]to Read Books.
[20:52]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at the Beowans
[20:55]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[20:57]Also sign up for my newsletter at www.zebeowans.com
[21:00]and sign up for my virtual book club
[21:02]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[21:04]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact,
[21:06]Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[21:08]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[21:10]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.