Sarah Blakley-Cartwright, ALICE SADIE CELINE
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Sarah Blakely Cartwright is the author of Alice Sadie Saline, a novel.
[1:07]Sarah is the author of Red Riding Hood, a number one New York Times bestseller, published
[1:11]worldwide in 38 editions and 15 languages.
[1:14]She is the editor of Houser and Worth's The Artist's Library for Ursula Magazine.
[1:19]She is publishing director, the Chicago Review of Books, and associate editor of a public
[1:23]space.
[1:24]Welcome, Sarah.
[1:25]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss Alice
[1:29]Sadie Saline.
[1:30]Thank you so much.
[1:31]It'd be wonderful to be here.
[1:32]I've been a subscriber for a long time and wonderful to be on the other end of things rather
[1:38]than just being a listener.
[1:39]Amazing.
[1:40]Well, thank you for my active participant.
[1:43]Appreciate every download and it all adds up.
[1:46]So Sarah, tell listeners about your book.
[1:49]Okay.
[1:50]Yeah.
[1:51]Alice Sadie Saline is the story of a girl who falls in love with her best friend's mother
[1:56]or because we hear from everyone equally, it could be vice versa.
[2:00]The story of a mother falls in love with her daughter's best friend.
[2:04]And one of the novel's central questions is can the daughter allow them to explore this
[2:10]love?
[2:11]It's a thorny arrangement, no doubt, but could we permit two people to have something
[2:18]like that?
[2:19]And it sort of, you know, I when the idea came to me, I asked myself, you know, what would
[2:23]happen if my mother had an affair with my best friend?
[2:26]You know, my first thoughts were I would be dumbfounded then, you know, I wouldn't even
[2:31]know what to say.
[2:32]It would break every rule of the universe.
[2:34]I wouldn't even just be jealous.
[2:35]I would hate them.
[2:36]I'd never want to speak to either of them again.
[2:38]And then I sort of wanted to interrogate that first reaction and sort of felt like I had
[2:43]to, you know, why such a visceral reaction, why such fevered boundary setting around the
[2:49]people that I love, you know, why would that necessarily feel like such a betrayal, you
[2:55]know, is that actually costing me anything?
[2:57]Interesting.
[2:58]Questions.
[2:59]I started thinking.
[3:00]Well, I feel like boundary setting is one of the most fundamental parts of a relationship
[3:05]with the parent as you get older.
[3:07]I mean, I feel like everyone struggles with this in terms of like their own parenting.
[3:12]And I saw you have a little one.
[3:13]How old is your, how old is your little one now?
[3:16]Oh, thank you so much.
[3:18]Yes.
[3:19]Swan is 10 months old and she's, I was just saying that I love her in a very profound
[3:24]way.
[3:25]But of course, the minute that you put a title like that on something, you know, you call
[3:29]something profound to film that you've seen and then suddenly everybody says that's not
[3:33]very profound because everybody loves their child profoundly.
[3:37]But in this case, it is true.
[3:39]And I guess that's the limits of language, which is why it's so frustrating to be a writer.
[3:43]Yeah.
[3:44]It's just no word for these things.
[3:45]But you know, it's interesting.
[3:48]We're talking about boundaries and I really feel both sides of the characters.
[3:55]I feel Sadie.
[3:56]I feel Alice, you know, wanting to both have the sort of boogie family life, like Sadie
[4:02]is after and also feeling a drive to live a sort of unorthodox life.
[4:08]And actually, you know, I was never somebody was like, I'm always going to be a mom.
[4:12]It's going to be what defines me.
[4:13]I always saw pregnancy actually is kind of an unwanted thing.
[4:17]I used to have nightmares that I was pregnant or that I had a baby and had lost it.
[4:22]You know, somewhere left it on a playground.
[4:25]To me, it really meant both responsibility and also, you know, the book has about sex
[4:31]a lot.
[4:32]And, you know, the pregnant body is both totally sexual and totally unsexual.
[4:35]You know, it's kind of like you're giving up your life.
[4:38]It's your time is over.
[4:39]It's someone else's turn.
[4:42]Yeah, you know, changes everything, life will will and can never ever be the same.
[4:47]It's a task you will never be finished with.
[4:49]And I like checking things off of lists, but the rest of your life, your mother, and you
[4:54]know, it can feel invasive.
[4:56]You can feel, you know, insects, someone is inside of you and a pregnancy, someone else's
[5:00]inside of you.
[5:01]So you can feel very invaded in a way.
[5:03]And then if you nurse, you know, the baby is attached to your body, suckling and clamped
[5:07]on like a barnacle and it can feel one directional, your body like a feeding machine
[5:12]and you can feel used, you can feel emptied out.
[5:15]All that is to say, I love my daughter very much and, you know, it's complex.
[5:19]Yeah.
[5:20]That's the long answer to your short question about great.
[5:24]I mean, no, this is the point is to hear from you.
[5:28]I mean, yeah, boundary setting is tricky.
[5:31]I remember, you know, one of the first play groups I had with my twins and this is now
[5:36]like 16 years ago.
[5:37]My mom came like bursting in the front door and was like, Oh, you know, I mean, and I was
[5:41]like, how about you like text or call or you know, I don't know how.
[5:46]Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[5:47]But anyway, I was wondering, obviously, when you launched on this idea of a mother and
[5:51]a best friend that's like, you know, plot gold.
[5:55]But where what made you start wondering about your mom and your best friend?
[5:58]Was it a look?
[5:59]Was it a relationship?
[6:01]Was it like where did it was it something that happened or was it just your imagination
[6:06]running wild?
[6:07]You know, I think the character of Selene probably came to me first.
[6:13]I, you know, thought about this woman who's 44 years old, 50 is in sight.
[6:19]So she's facing that particular challenge.
[6:21]And it's actually funny how many kind of review in the pre reviews, trade reviews, people
[6:26]talked about her as an older woman and like, well, you know, she's 44 or she's not really
[6:31]sure.
[6:32]But you know, it's just, it's an age where, you know, you start thinking about certain
[6:36]things.
[6:37]I actually heard a conversation between the writer Eileen Miles and the show creator Jill
[6:45]Soloway in 2016 at the Hammer Museum in LA.
[6:48]And I had already started on the book and hit upon this premise.
[6:52]But I really, they're, they're exes and I was really inspired by the way that they
[6:56]approached each other to not be so attached to this is mine.
[7:00]And this is yours.
[7:00]They're this power couple who happen not to be together anymore.
[7:04]And that's fine.
[7:06]And it's what Selene is trying to convey to the girls, you know, why take everything
[7:10]so seriously.
[7:11]And that really helped me in the genesis of Selene when I was first starting to get
[7:16]to know her.
[7:17]She's kind of a female chauvinist, you know, which we don't see all that often in literature.
[7:22]She's bold.
[7:23]She's daring.
[7:24]She's a person of moderate appetites.
[7:27]And you know, I do think that women approaching their 50s can sometimes feel like a little
[7:33]bit unseen, maybe for the first time starting to be like invisible to society.
[7:38]And Selene is so determined not to be dismissed that she thrusts herself into the center
[7:42]of everything.
[7:43]You know, she's an activist.
[7:44]But her activism is kind of partial.
[7:46]It's mostly in service of herself.
[7:48]She's waving the Selene flag.
[7:50]And she's uncooperative.
[7:52]She's intractable.
[7:53]It can be very frustrating to be around someone like that.
[7:56]And it can also be really inspiring, you know, if you think about someone who's always
[7:59]reasonable and logical, that's not very electrifying.
[8:02]Selene blows hot and cold.
[8:05]And I think I did, you know, they asked me about the book to tell you about the book
[8:08]and it's a nice book about.
[8:10]It's about this situation.
[8:12]But it's also I think in some ways about how much we give up for others and how it kind
[8:17]of proves impossible to get out of that system and live for oneself, Selene is certainly
[8:22]trying.
[8:24]You know, and some people can say that's very dubious, you know, you should live for
[8:28]others.
[8:29]And, you know, I don't have an answer on that or, you know, I don't, all the characters
[8:32]were very real to me and I really didn't want the reader to identify with one character
[8:36]and not another.
[8:37]I didn't want you to write anybody off.
[8:39]I think you can tell when an author has an axe to grind with one or another of their
[8:44]characters.
[8:45]And I really didn't want that to be the case.
[8:47]Interesting.
[8:48]Tell me about the decision to make this sort of initial attraction happen on stage where
[8:55]there's already a performative element to it and then how it became, you know, the hot
[8:59]and heavy elevator moment, you know, that seemed predetermined, which is like, okay, well,
[9:05]I'm into this book now.
[9:07]I love how you say that.
[9:08]That is true.
[9:09]It is predetermined.
[9:10]It's kind of like from the minute they set eyes on each other, ooh, something's going
[9:14]to happen.
[9:15]Part of that is the character of Alice.
[9:18]She is game, you know, she's up for an adventure and Selene kindle something in her.
[9:25]She awakens sexual feelings, but she also has this really broadening influence, which
[9:30]is very enticing for Alice who's up on stage, sort of trying on different characters.
[9:37]And part of the allure of Selene for her is she's going to tell me who I am, which for
[9:43]any of us could be very enticing, you know.
[9:45]But then as the relationship goes on, it begins to turn.
[9:51]And you know, everything Selene does, even loving, is run through an undercurrent of how
[9:55]is this going to serve me.
[9:56]And in small ways, she begins to demean Alice.
[10:00]And, you know, I think it's really interesting.
[10:02]You say the performative element
[10:03]and you know, on a fair kind of has a performative aspect.
[10:08]It's sort of, you know, an interlude
[10:10]is another word for an affair, you know,
[10:12]sort of a something that breaks something in a life.
[10:16]And I wanted to go beyond the sexual encounter.
[10:18]You know, of course, there's first that elevator moment.
[10:21]And that's like, that's the end of the first chapter.
[10:23]So, and I wanted to go beyond the, you know,
[10:26]hanky, panky aspect of the affair.
[10:27]And here, it kind of gears into an obsessive attachment
[10:31]for a time anyway, before Selene is onto the next thing.
[10:34]But at the same time, that doesn't undo what is true,
[10:37]which is that Selene helps Alice tap into something
[10:42]within her, you know, and Selene is trying, kind of.
[10:45]In a way.
[10:47]I even love the title of this
[10:50]and how it's just the three women's names.
[10:52]Did you, you know, having been through the title,
[10:56]machinery of, you know, was this always the title?
[10:59]Did you think about other titles?
[11:01]I'm just curious.
[11:01]It's funny.
[11:02]It was always the title.
[11:04]And the names were actually really important to me.
[11:05]And people sometimes confuse the names,
[11:08]which is fair enough.
[11:09]And that is evil on my part.
[11:11]I actually wanted names that sound like one person,
[11:15]like sort of the three sides of a coin,
[11:17]a coin doesn't have three sides.
[11:19]Okay, well, pretend.
[11:20]Okay, that's the drawing board.
[11:22]Yeah, that was important to me, actually.
[11:24]And I just felt it was really important
[11:27]that it was equally their three stories.
[11:29]I think people often are most attached to Selene,
[11:32]but, you know, I think the book is kind of,
[11:37]if I can say great to my own horn,
[11:39]but I think what's one thing that's great
[11:42]about the arrangement of the book
[11:43]is that it's a close triangle.
[11:45]I'm drawing a little triangle there.
[11:46]You can't see it, but, you know,
[11:47]in one close triangle, you have a mother daughter,
[11:50]you have a friendship and you have a romantic relationship.
[11:54]And I thought that was kind of great.
[11:56]So that's all contained in the title
[11:58]is that you have those three, you know, connections.
[12:02]Amazing.
[12:03]You have your feet in so many aspects of the literary world.
[12:06]Tell me first how you got into this space
[12:10]and then also more about everything you do.
[12:15]Yes, so, well, everything I'll start with everything I do,
[12:18]which is, you know, I've been,
[12:21]I've always tried to find other people
[12:23]trying to do meaningful work in the arts.
[12:25]So that's led me to a lot of good places.
[12:29]And after sort of a decade of working in the industry,
[12:32]I have a series, what do you call it?
[12:36]I edit a series for a wonderful magazine
[12:39]called Ursula, Magazine of Art and Literature.
[12:41]I'm the publishing director at Chicago Review of Books
[12:44]and I'm an editor at a magazine called Public Space,
[12:47]you know, to pick up one at a public space.
[12:50]We publish essays, poetry, fiction, art portfolios,
[12:53]oral histories, and part of the point of the magazine,
[12:56]a specialty of the publication is that it's eclectic.
[12:59]That's kind of why it exists.
[13:01]And it won the wedding, a wedding award a few years ago
[13:05]in part of the judge's citation
[13:06]was that it was a cabinet of wonders,
[13:09]which I really feel very lucky for a decade
[13:13]to have had that kind of exposure.
[13:15]You know, where else would I expose myself
[13:17]to such a variety of voices, perspectives,
[13:20]topics, themes, you know, in our reading life,
[13:23]we sort of shoot, you know,
[13:24]I would be reading books about and by women, you know,
[13:27]but I'm forced to read all kinds of things,
[13:29]which is probably the best thing you can do as a writer
[13:32]and probably, you know, supporting other writers
[13:35]and helping them put their work into the world
[13:37]is probably the single-handed thing
[13:38]that will help me survive my own publication
[13:41]with any degree, because I've seen both sides.
[13:45]And it's, you know, I started as an intern
[13:48]that I became a reader.
[13:49]Now, I'm an editor.
[13:50]I put in a lot of times that I can now contribute
[13:52]in a way that works for me and with my writing schedule.
[13:55]And, you know, but I did the layouts.
[13:57]I did the copy edits.
[13:58]I tabled at book fairs countless times.
[14:00]I did, like, you know, and it all ends up
[14:03]having a sense of how the sausages made.
[14:05]So, and what about, you know, transitioning
[14:09]to sort of adult fiction.
[14:11]I mean, in this case, very adult, but yes.
[14:14]You know, I actually read writing hood.
[14:17]My first book was a job that was handed to me.
[14:19]So, I actually never considered myself a why I write,
[14:23]of course, I wrote my bios.
[14:24]It says, why I write or transition to adulthood?
[14:27]But it was a sort of wonderful and also bizarre opportunity.
[14:31]I had very young to work professionally as a writer.
[14:34]A Warner Brothers was developing a film
[14:37]with Leonardo DiCaprio's production company
[14:39]of all things, Appian Way.
[14:41]And they wanted a novel to come out in advance
[14:44]of the film they were developing.
[14:45]And they hired me to write a book that would
[14:49]tell the backstory to the front story of the film.
[14:51]Oh, yeah.
[14:53]And I was 22 at the time.
[14:54]So, they wanted to get that perspective right
[14:57]of the young girl.
[14:58]And actually, they also hired me to write the voiceover
[15:01]in the film.
[15:01]And the novel sort of took off and had a life of its own.
[15:05]It became a number one best seller.
[15:07]I think it was in 38 languages or something.
[15:10]I don't even have copies of the book
[15:11]in every language.
[15:12]I've got to find those.
[15:13]Those would be worth having.
[15:14]But it was just so unexpected.
[15:16]I mean, I think it had Warner Brothers
[15:18]and Lil Brown behind it, which helped.
[15:20]But they never expected it to do as well as it did.
[15:23]I went on tour, I remember in Brazil,
[15:25]there was a line of 200 teenagers waiting to speak to me.
[15:29]I mean, teenagers are voracious readers.
[15:32]They are amazing.
[15:33]And they are so loyal.
[15:34]And they dress up like the characters.
[15:36]Somebody was, you know, half of the people are in Woolfats.
[15:39]You know, most of them were red writing.
[15:41]But somebody fainted, I, anyway, it was surreal.
[15:44]It was a surreal experience.
[15:45]So all that is to say, I don't think I'll probably
[15:48]have that experience with this book, sadly.
[15:51]Who knows, you know, we never know.
[15:54]Whatever you know, you never know.
[15:56]What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[15:59]Oh, the most very basic advice is write what you love.
[16:03]And not because you'll be stuck with it
[16:05]for as long as you're working,
[16:06]but because it'll just be a much better book.
[16:08]If you write the book you'd love to read,
[16:11]that's really what I did with this book.
[16:12]I thought I have never seen that arrangement
[16:15]among three women.
[16:16]I would love to know what happened.
[16:19]And I would say also work with your weaknesses
[16:22]as a writer rather than against them.
[16:24]Don't fight them.
[16:26]And lastly, I would say when you're making decisions,
[16:29]try to think long term about your career.
[16:31]Don't make decisions short term.
[16:33]It would be my three pieces.
[16:35]Interesting, very interesting.
[16:37]Well, thank you so much.
[16:38]Thank you for coming on.
[16:39]I'm sorry for some of our technical issues today.
[16:42]We triumphed.
[16:43]We triumphed.
[16:44]We got a lot of great stuff in there.
[16:45]Congrats again.
[16:47]I'm really excited.
[16:48]This is such a highly anticipated book.
[16:49]And I know it's going to do great.
[16:51]And it's just amazing.
[16:52]So thank you for taking the time out to talk to me today.
[16:55]Oh my gosh, well thank you so much to be
[16:57]thank you for your wonderful questions
[17:00]and your support for the book.
[17:01]It means so much.
[17:02]No problem.
[17:03]All right.
[17:04]Thanks, everybody.
[17:05]Okay, bye bye.
[17:07]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[17:10]Don't have time to read books.
[17:11]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[17:13]at Zibi Owens and at Moms.
[17:15]Don't have time to read books.
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[17:23]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[17:25]at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[17:27]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[17:29]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.