Karma Brown, WHAT WILD WOMEN DO
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Karma Brown is back on mom's and have time to read books for repeat performance.
[1:08]This time we're talking about what wild women do, a novel.
[1:12]Karma is the author of five novels, including the number one international bestseller
[1:16]recipe for a perfect wife.
[1:18]Come away with me, which was a globe and male best book of 2015.
[1:22]Globe and male and Toronto star bestsellers, the choices we make.
[1:26]And in this moment, and the life Lucy knew.
[1:29]She's also the author of the bestseller, The Four Percent Fix, how one hour can change
[1:33]your life.
[1:34]An award-winning journalist, Karma has been published in self-readbook in today's parent,
[1:39]among others.
[1:40]She lives just outside Toronto with her husband, daughter, and a laboratory named Fred.
[1:44]Welcome, Karma.
[1:45]Thank you for coming back on mom's.
[1:46]Don't have time to read books.
[1:47]This time to discuss what wild women do.
[1:50]Thanks, Libby.
[1:51]I am happy to be here again.
[1:52]For anybody who is listening, you should stop what you're doing and go look at this cover,
[1:57]which I think is absolutely beautiful.
[1:59]Oh my gosh.
[2:00]With all this, these delicate yet beautiful branches, and I'm not going to describe things
[2:06]which is why you should just go look at this beautiful.
[2:09]It is a just such a nice job with it.
[2:12]It really is.
[2:13]It has that feminine quality, but there's a little bit of wildness to it within the natural
[2:18]elements.
[2:19]And there's a crow in there, crow plays a part in the story.
[2:23]So I was very happy when the crow got on the cover.
[2:26]I was exciting for me.
[2:27]Yes.
[2:28]Gorgeous.
[2:29]So gorgeous.
[2:30]Anyway, of course, that's not important.
[2:31]Don't judge a book by its cover, but you know, I have to judge course a little bit.
[2:35]Your book really spoke to me in different ways, but one of which is the like curation
[2:41]for others of your life as it happens and how do you sort of navigate that and what everyone
[2:48]else in your life wants and what you want and what becomes material and what does not
[2:54]it and what is private and you know, for anyone who is on social media, which is most
[2:59]people these days, like, you know, this is an extreme and I want you to tell listeners
[3:03]more about what the book's about.
[3:04]But I don't know.
[3:05]It's something that everybody is always questioning and that you handle in a really interesting
[3:08]way.
[3:09]So thank you.
[3:10]There was a lot wrapped up into that, right?
[3:13]Yes.
[3:14]In that statement.
[3:15]Should I start with go from there?
[3:17]Okay.
[3:18]Go from there.
[3:19]Okay.
[3:20]Well, it's a book.
[3:21]It's a timeline story.
[3:22]It's set in 1975 in the present day and we follow two women.
[3:27]One of them is a modern day screenwriter and the other is 30 and the other woman is a 50
[3:34]year old sort of socialite turned feminist in 1975 who is running these workshops for
[3:41]women at her family's great camp compound in the Adirondacks.
[3:46]So she's running these workshops and these camp sessions for women to find their wild
[3:51]ways.
[3:52]And in the modern day, our protagonist, Rowan, who is a screenwriter, has gone with her fiance
[3:58]Seth to the woods for a month to just get lost in the woods and be able to refocus on their
[4:04]creative endeavors.
[4:06]And there is this great camp.
[4:09]There is a hidden treasure.
[4:11]There is a mysterious disappearance and these things link the two women together across
[4:15]the decades.
[4:16]So that's sort of what the book is about.
[4:19]And so I just started really talking about it and it's so funny because you're like,
[4:23]what is my book about?
[4:25]How can I make an elevator pitch for this story?
[4:28]It's so hard because you know, right?
[4:31]Like you live in your book and it's really hard to distill it.
[4:35]So that's sort of that's basically what it's about.
[4:37]I think that was a good job.
[4:38]That was great.
[4:39]Thank you.
[4:40]You can do it again if you want.
[4:41]We could just practice.
[4:42]We could use the whole thing just to have you practice your elevator.
[4:44]You know what?
[4:45]I feel like happy enough with what just happened there.
[4:47]So I'm going to leave it and not try.
[4:49]Let's move on.
[4:50]Usually, first time is usually in the back.
[4:52]So we'll leave it and move on.
[4:54]There are so many things that I can talk about with this story and I don't quite know
[4:59]where to start.
[5:00]One thing I will say is that it was really important for me to make one of the characters
[5:04]50 and I just turned 50 last year.
[5:07]I did keep aging her up.
[5:09]It took a couple of years to write the book.
[5:10]So I, you know, she was born gay and then she was 49 and then she was 50 when I realized
[5:14]I'd be 50 when the book came out.
[5:17]And she just gave me an opportunity to work out a lot of stuff on the page about this
[5:22]age, about being a woman who's aging and all the good and bad that comes with that.
[5:30]And for Rowan, who's in the present day with her fiance Seth, you know, she is a screenwriter
[5:36]and really wants to have her project, this, this script made into something or at least
[5:42]an option for something, but she's sort of stuck because her fiance is writing, you
[5:48]know, the great American novel, he's an MFA and, but he doesn't seem to be doing a lot
[5:53]of writing.
[5:54]He's doing a lot of YouTube content creation because he has a YouTube channel and has
[6:00]sort of wrote her into doing a lot of this couple's content, you know, living their lives
[6:06]sort of out on social media and his focus seems to be there and her focus is somewhere
[6:11]else.
[6:13]There is a lot about the now ambition in this story and what that can do within a relationship
[6:18]if not everyone is on the same page about that.
[6:21]But the social media out that I really wanted to touch on because I who doesn't struggle
[6:27]with social media, I find it, I have a teenager, I think multiple times a day about her
[6:34]use of social media and what I should be doing or shouldn't be doing or can do how I want
[6:41]to be on social media.
[6:43]So that was an element of the story that I wanted to put in there because I do think
[6:47]it's hard to be authentic on social media.
[6:51]Even when you're being authentic, there can be this feeling that you've shared too much
[6:56]and then you get that over sharing hangover and you're like, oh, what have I done?
[6:59]I did I need to do that, but there's a strange thing about it that compels you to share.
[7:05]So I wanted to add that as a conflict for the couple, but also, you know, again, working
[7:11]my own shit out on the page because what else is, you know, it's so fun writing books,
[7:16]but this is all part of it.
[7:17]It's sort of like a little bit of therapy for us authors.
[7:20]Yes.
[7:21]A hundred percent.
[7:22]I was actually thinking about this.
[7:23]I was running to this doctor's appointment this morning and I was thinking like, oh, I
[7:26]should post about blah, blah, blah, blah, and then I was like, no, that's something
[7:30]you should just talk to people about with your voice.
[7:33]Not recorded, like that is just a conversation that does not have to be distributed.
[7:38]Like not everything has to be distributed.
[7:40]Like it's fine.
[7:41]It's right.
[7:42]Right.
[7:43]But it is hard to, you do have to have that conversation with yourself sometimes for
[7:48]like, wait, does everyone need to know what I ate for dinner tonight?
[7:52]Like does it matter?
[7:53]And sometimes it may matter a great deal.
[7:55]And it of course depends on what your business is and what you're trying to do and the
[8:00]platform you're trying to build, but it does require a little more thoughtfulness and I
[8:05]think a lot of us give, you know, just kind of do sort of post it and then think about
[8:10]it later.
[8:11]Yeah.
[8:12]So yeah.
[8:13]The work in progress.
[8:14]Still, I'm impressed they had so many followers.
[8:17]I'm like, how did they even do that?
[8:18]But anyway.
[8:19]Thank you.
[8:20]Well, anyway, it's fictional Vibby.
[8:24]I know.
[8:25]I know.
[8:26]In real life, they would never get another hundred thousand overnight.
[8:27]You know, I did watch, I did watch a few couples, like I followed a few couples for years
[8:32]and have and continue to follow them and just have watched what they do and how they
[8:37]do it and the constant content and the types of content that will get them just, you know,
[8:44]a hundred thousand followers over the course of a couple months and, and I mean, you probably
[8:50]know some of these types of accounts, but they just they're living their lives out there
[8:55]in a very public way, not really holding a lot back.
[9:00]So anyway, but it is fictional, you know,
[9:03]all these followers.
[9:04]So I had to, you know, massage it a little bit.
[9:07]Yeah.
[9:07]No, I love that you did that as research.
[9:09]That was, that's awesome.
[9:10]Yeah.
[9:11]Yeah.
[9:12]Am I allowed to read this dear reader letter because it was so beautiful.
[9:16]The letter that came with the book.
[9:17]Can I read it?
[9:18]Cause it's all about you.
[9:19]Is that all right?
[9:20]I didn't even remember it.
[9:21]Okay.
[9:22]Please read it.
[9:23]I never actually done this before, but I'm going to do it.
[9:25]Cause I was like, wow, that's, that there's so much in here.
[9:27]Okay.
[9:28]Dear reader, I turned 50 right around the time I was finishing edits on this novel, which
[9:32]is my ninth.
[9:33]I like to write stories about women seeking and achieving agency.
[9:37]And this book is no exception.
[9:38]Each novel has taught me something, but I've learned more from writing Rowan and Eddy stories
[9:42]than any of the others.
[9:43]Maybe it's because I relate to screenwriter Rowan and her ambition to create something tangible
[9:47]in a modern world perpetually driven by viral trends 24, seven news cycles and flavors of
[9:53]the moment.
[9:54]Or perhaps similarly to my 1970s socialite turned feminist Eddie, I am on the cusp of the
[9:59]third action.
[10:00]My life, when women, too easily dismissed at every age,
[10:03]become nearly invisible, even as they brim with experience
[10:06]and wisdom, and clear humility about what they still
[10:09]don't know.
[10:10]Early on, Eddie writes, I am on a path with a clear beginning,
[10:13]but no end.
[10:14]There is no room to be tentative with our intentions.
[10:16]Time is a fickle thing.
[10:18]Like Eddie and Rowan, I survived my own life-changing trauma
[10:21]when I was diagnosed with cancer at age 30.
[10:24]This fact about my history explains why I write the characters
[10:26]I do.
[10:27]Women who have survived the hardest moments
[10:29]of their lives and who are now on the path to thriving
[10:32]versus merely surviving.
[10:34]I, too, believe time is a fickle thing
[10:36]and that there is little room to be tentative with our intentions.
[10:39]It's a lesson I gave to Eddie to Relay,
[10:41]but one that becomes a beacon for Rowan throughout the pages.
[10:44]And then you said, so while this book showcases only
[10:47]a few autobiographical details, a core memory visit
[10:50]to the Adirondack's Great Camp Sagmore
[10:52]when I was seven years old, personal truths about aging,
[10:54]I will admit to finding parts of myself
[10:57]at the center of both of these women.
[10:59]One of the most fascinating facts I learned in my research
[11:02]is that trees become stronger and more resilient
[11:04]when they get tossed about and strong winds.
[11:06]The back and forth sway of the trunk and branches
[11:09]is what helps the roots get a stir-deer hold on the earth.
[11:13]I believe the same is true for us.
[11:17]That's so beautiful.
[11:18]That's just so beautiful in so many ways.
[11:19]Thank you.
[11:20]Thank you.
[11:21]Talk about the tree part.
[11:23]Let's go to the end first.
[11:24]And then I also just want you to talk.
[11:26]I know you did last time, too, about time being fickle
[11:29]and your thoughts on time, which I think about all the time,
[11:32]especially having survived something early on
[11:34]and how that color is you're thinking on aging,
[11:37]but also on living.
[11:38]Right.
[11:39]OK, the trees.
[11:40]I mean, I loved I have become a birder.
[11:43]I'm pretty obsessed with trees.
[11:45]And that details really stuck with me
[11:49]that the reason we want the wind and the trees
[11:53]need the wind is because it helps them develop stronger roots
[11:57]and that when they're blowing around,
[12:00]that's actually making them stronger.
[12:01]And so it's that just that beautiful thought
[12:04]that, like as we get tossed around in our life,
[12:06]it's actually anchoring us more into our life,
[12:10]into the earth, whatever it is, wherever you feel
[12:14]that you need to be planted and rooted,
[12:16]that is made stronger because of trials and tribulations
[12:21]that we go through.
[12:22]And it's not to do any sort of toxic positivity.
[12:25]I'm very anti, you know, let's just frame everything
[12:30]in a positive light and talk about why we're so glad
[12:33]that these terrible things happened
[12:34]because I think that doesn't actually offer a lot.
[12:37]It makes other people feel really good,
[12:39]but it doesn't offer a lot to the discourse
[12:41]and the conversation.
[12:42]In terms of my feelings about aging,
[12:45]I mean, this past year has been a really interesting one
[12:47]for me.
[12:48]I pulled way back.
[12:49]I stopped writing entirely for probably about four months.
[12:54]I mean, literally did not put my fingers on the keyboards.
[12:57]I did a ton of work and like, network and just listening
[13:03]to podcasts about how to find balance
[13:05]and to, you know, work on my sympathetic nervous system
[13:10]so that I could feel calmer because I'm just not
[13:12]a calm person, generally.
[13:14]I'm typing, I like to go, go, go.
[13:16]But at some point, I just reached this place
[13:20]where I was like, well, this isn't working.
[13:21]I want to be more present in my own life
[13:24]because I'm 50.
[13:26]And so then I can see what's left of the runway.
[13:29]I hope it's long, but it's there in front of me.
[13:33]My parents are aging, my daughter is only home
[13:36]for a couple of more years.
[13:37]And I just needed to shift my focus and my priority.
[13:42]Did one thing trigger this?
[13:43]Like, did you have a moment where you're like,
[13:45]okay, gotta do something about this now?
[13:47]Or it just was the accumulation of all of that?
[13:49]I think it was a accumulation of all that.
[13:51]And then just turning 50 and making it, you know,
[13:53]it's like having a milestone birthday,
[13:55]having a birthday is amazing,
[13:56]having a milestone birthday is another opportunity
[13:59]to really take stock of where you are.
[14:02]And I mean, I have a life I love and I'm very happy
[14:06]with all aspects of my life, but I wanted to be in it more.
[14:10]I wanted to be so much more present
[14:13]and not so driven by things outside of my control.
[14:18]And in the book business, it's really hard
[14:21]to stay focused on the things you can control.
[14:26]So I basically am obsessed with Rick Rubin right now.
[14:29]He is my mantra, like everything he writes,
[14:33]and I've listened to 30 podcasts.
[14:34]If you ever wanna know what is the best Rick Rubin podcast,
[14:37]I will tell you, I have his book that I read right now
[14:41]all the time.
[14:42]And just his frame, he's so calm.
[14:44]If you've ever listened to his voice,
[14:46]very zen-like in these podcasts.
[14:47]So you'll just instantly like shoulders come down.
[14:50]But one of the best things that came out of me
[14:53]just listening to him was this idea
[14:56]that the moment we create something
[14:59]and we put it in the world or we hand it over
[15:03]is our moment of success.
[15:04]And so whether it goes on to be commercially successful
[15:07]or not is really none of our business.
[15:09]You know, we offered it into the world.
[15:12]It will be received by the people
[15:13]who are interested in receiving it.
[15:15]So we have had our successful moment
[15:18]in doing that and creating that.
[15:20]And for me, that really helped to reframe this business
[15:26]and this is my ninth book I've been doing for a while.
[15:29]So yeah, I don't know if it was,
[15:31]I mean, I put it a lot of books during COVID
[15:32]and it was a very busy time and I burned out.
[15:35]And so it did come out of necessity,
[15:37]but also just choice.
[15:39]I just made a choice that that was enough
[15:41]and I was going to slow down
[15:43]and go through a different season.
[15:47]And it's been amazing.
[15:49]And it's been really life changing for me.
[15:51]So yeah.
[15:52]So can you take some of those things
[15:54]into the present and the future?
[15:57]Like if, let's say somebody's not as in
[16:01]as you have become like me.
[16:03]Well, I mean, what should I do?
[16:05]Just give me like one thing I should do.
[16:08]Is it really breathing?
[16:09]Is that really that important?
[16:10]Like no, honestly, that has changed things for me.
[16:13]There is a breathing pattern I do that is
[16:16]in for four and you push a belly out in for four
[16:20]through your nose, hold for seven,
[16:23]blow out through your mouth for eight,
[16:25]do that three times.
[16:27]I do it all the time.
[16:29]Like as many times as I think about it in a day, I do it.
[16:32]And it really does just calm you down.
[16:36]And cold showers, I know this is weird,
[16:38]but cold water makes a huge difference
[16:42]in just keeping the dopamine up and keeping the stress down.
[16:45]So, I mean, I'll send you other things
[16:48]because it's like off the record
[16:50]and we can leave the stress down.
[16:52]But I, you know, those were two things
[16:54]that I've been doing consistently consistently.
[16:57]And then if I get feeling wiggly,
[17:00]I go put Rick Rubin in my years
[17:02]or I read a chapter of his book
[17:03]or I just remind myself about what I can control
[17:07]and what I can't.
[17:08]And then, you know, I thought perfect.
[17:10]Trust me, like, you know, I spin out still.
[17:14]It is a work in progress.
[17:15]But it's much, it's a much better place to be.
[17:19]I find there's a lot more peaceful in this year.
[17:22]So, Rowan and Eddie, you know,
[17:25]Eddie has all these mantras about life
[17:29]and she's become fairly self-actualized
[17:32]after going through her own journey.
[17:35]And sometimes like there's things,
[17:37]I read back some of the things she wrote
[17:39]and I think, Eddie, like that's wise.
[17:42]And then, that came out of your head.
[17:46]I mean, it's in you, it's in there.
[17:48]But you know what it's like with your characters.
[17:50]They sort of just become other people,
[17:54]you know, really intimately.
[17:57]But they don't feel always like you.
[17:59]They're just, they're excited of you
[18:01]by the time they go live on the page like that.
[18:04]So it's true.
[18:05]We're talking in circles about, you know.
[18:08]It's not circles, it's super interesting.
[18:10]And I think it is super interesting.
[18:14]I think a lot of people,
[18:15]even if sometimes if I read a passage back,
[18:18]authors will often be like,
[18:19]huh, I can't believe I wrote that.
[18:20]Or like, yeah, that is true.
[18:22]Or wow, because you put it out there,
[18:25]it like, I don't know.
[18:27]I mean, if you had, there's an hour to me there.
[18:29]It's like, there's an alchemy that you just,
[18:30]you're in, I mean, I don't know what it's like for you.
[18:33]But when I'm in with my characters,
[18:35]like we are together 24-7.
[18:38]And they tell me things when I'm driving
[18:41]and we have little conversations
[18:42]when we go walking in the woods.
[18:44]And, you know, dialogue will just show up.
[18:47]And I hear their voice and,
[18:48]and it's almost impossible to separate.
[18:52]If you truly allow yourself to participate in that,
[18:54]which I think, for me is the easiest way
[18:57]to get the words on the page.
[18:58]Otherwise, it's an overthinking process that happens.
[19:02]But yeah, they do.
[19:05]They become, my husband has never understood this.
[19:09]He's always like, okay, I'm just gonna take your word for it.
[19:12]It's like, they become real people.
[19:14]Like, people are new really well on Facebook.
[19:16]And then now we just stay in touch.
[19:18]Like, let's see here and say birthday messages.
[19:21]But you knew them really well at one time.
[19:24]Yeah.
[19:24]I feel like it's more of one of those like,
[19:27]maybe a summer camp experience.
[19:29]Like, it's an intense shorter period.
[19:31]Yeah.
[19:31]And then not so much like a friend
[19:34]for 50 years, you know, because you're just like,
[19:36]no, you're in it.
[19:37]You shared something, you shared this experience,
[19:40]and it was meaningful.
[19:42]And you always have that.
[19:43]And no matter where everyone else moves on to,
[19:46]you always have that experience.
[19:48]Oh, yeah.
[19:49]It's crazy.
[19:50]What our brains do.
[19:51]And also what society deems is like,
[19:53]super productive and helpful to the world.
[19:55]Like, novels, perhaps.
[19:57]And people and like mental illness.
[20:00]where you also hear voices and yet you're not writing them and it is not like socially acceptable
[20:05]in the same way or whatever. So I don't know if there's like a fine line. Honestly,
[20:10]I don't know. I'm not even going to worry about it because there's so many things to worry about
[20:14]that. Like this is the other thing where I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to put that one
[20:17]over there. That's not something I have to worry about. No, no, I didn't mean it is a worry. I'm just
[20:21]like this is, it's just interesting. No, but it is. Yeah, we'll put in how we reframe it in the context
[20:29]that we put around things. Agree. We have a tendency to, you know, we want to put context around
[20:35]everything and the same thing can show up differently in two different places, right? Yeah.
[20:43]We said, tell me more though about your writing and when you think of characters and then how do
[20:49]you decide how do you marry plot and character and like which comes first for you and all that?
[20:57]I usually a character comes first for me or a setting. I really like to make my settings feel
[21:05]like another character and so sometimes it's a setting. In this case, it was the setting first. I really
[21:12]wanted to write a book that was set in sort of this isolated forest where I like to put all my
[21:21]characters in very isolated places. I often do that where I put them in, you know, like in recipe
[21:26]for perfect wife there and a house and that's basically where you spend all your time with
[21:30]with those characters. But I just thought it's just something about being in the woods,
[21:35]especially if you are just a little small person in a giant vast wood filled with all the natural
[21:43]elements and what, how do you feel about yourself and your relationships when you're amongst all of
[21:51]that? And when you're alone and you have to do that thinking, you don't want to distract you.
[21:57]And so, oh my god, I forgot my question now.
[22:00]I'm a slot and character, flat and character. I mentioned I was 50 in Perry Menopause yet.
[22:05]So usually it's character, but I can't, I mean, I do a lot of planning ahead of time.
[22:11]I can't start writing until I have both, but I, so I do wait until those pieces come into focus
[22:18]for me, but usually it's a character or setting. And then I start thinking about, you know,
[22:25]the things that I'm interested and are curious about, like with the hidden treasure,
[22:29]I don't know if you remember hearing about Forrest Fenn who was this eccentric,
[22:35]I think it was a building there, but he buried a treasure in the Rocky Mountains and made it
[22:40]a game for people to go and find it. And it took years and years. Someone found it a few months
[22:45]before he died. And there was all this speculation that he had never done it. He'd never
[22:48]buried it. He was just trying to get people to, you know, get out in the woods, but then five
[22:55]people died trying to find it because they fell down cliffs and went into rivers. And anyway,
[23:01]so I was also inspired by this idea of like what, like people were putting their whole lives on
[23:06]hold to go and seek out this treasure in an environment that they were not prepared to go into.
[23:14]What is it about us that makes us decide to just put our life off to the side and go and do
[23:21]this thing? Know what really propels people to do the things they do. So it all kind of
[23:27]yeah mixes together. What about you? Do you do your characters? I mean, I only have the one novel
[23:35]this actually worked or it's coming out. But I have written a bunch of other ones. It just, I mean,
[23:42]I don't know. Those all count. Maybe those I know. I know. I know. I mean, I would say that to someone
[23:47]else too, but it's me. So I don't feel like that. You could be kind to yourself too. They count.
[23:51]I think it's both. It's like there has to be, I don't know. I feel like I have the idea of the story.
[23:56]Yeah. And like, I'm not as good as creating. I don't know. I have like an amalgam of people.
[24:01]I'm like, well, this person kind of looks like this person, but then they're kind of going to act like
[24:04]this. I don't know. I don't know. It's alchemy again. Like, I'm not sure it can be totally
[24:11]pinned down, but usually it starts with something for everybody. And it might be different every book.
[24:16]That's true. So what about your next book? Are you working on anything else?
[24:20]I am. Can you what can you say anything? I'm not going to say much. It's that it's quite different.
[24:27]I'm switching genres again. So
[24:29]something that I've wanted to write for a long, long time is my favorite genre to read.
[24:36]And I'm having a lot of fun doing it. But wow. Yeah. Look at that.
[24:42]It's smile. That's amazing. I mean, that's the point. Right. If you're not enjoying what you're doing,
[24:48]you know, why do it? I don't know. I shouldn't say that.
[24:51]But sometimes there are reasons, but I do, you know, sometimes you, you get stuck and you get lost.
[24:58]and then you have to find your way back out again. So yeah, I mean, I'm having a good time.
[25:03]That's amazing. What advice would you give to aspiring authors?
[25:08]Oh, this question. Sorry. Sorry. No, no, it is a good question. But I do think the issue is that
[25:15]what works for someone doesn't work for someone else. What works for me is making sure that when I'm
[25:22]actively drafting a story, my butt is in the seat. And I like to do it early in the morning
[25:28]at 5 a.m. I don't edit as I go if I can help that because I feel like I don't know my story
[25:34]until it is, there's at least a first graph, no matter how messy it is. And I, you know, if you
[25:41]haven't finished the story, you might be editing out things that are actually going to be
[25:44]critical to a character. So I usually just say, you know, for me, what works is not waiting for
[25:51]some muse to show up. It is, this is a job and you have to put your butt in your seat and get
[25:56]your words down. No matter when that is for you or how you force yourself to do that, whether you
[26:01]need treats to do it or, you know, to like lock your door or something. I don't know. Whatever it is,
[26:08]just make sure that you can sit down and get the words down. Otherwise, there's nothing to do
[26:14]anything else with. But that's, yeah, I don't know. Everyone has, I mean, I like to wake up early
[26:21]and other people are like, oh, that is the worst advice ever. I'm like, okay, well, if you do you,
[26:26]whatever works for you, that's just what works for me. What is the wildest thing you've done?
[26:31]Okay. So the wildest thing I've done when I was working as a freelance journalist for magazines,
[26:39]I had this habit where I'd wake up in the morning early again because my daughter was a very early
[26:44]riser. So I would wake up and I would pitch about five to eight ideas to different magazines.
[26:50]And so one morning I woke up, I had not done my coffee yet and I thought, I'm going to pitch
[26:56]this idea of going to a nudist resort and can go into a nudist resort out body image.
[27:05]So if you go in your naked amongst all the other naked people, will you feel better about your body?
[27:10]And so I, yes, this is a great idea and I sent it and then I was like, oh, there's going to want
[27:15]this story and you know, you just have a knowing and then I'm going to have to go and that is what
[27:21]happened. So it's not exactly wild in the conventional way that you might think of being wild,
[27:28]like going on some massive hike across something that range. But it was wild because I'm the person
[27:36]who ducks in our back, like our bedroom windows face a forest and I duck when I change because
[27:43]someone might see me. So I like got fully naked in my crocs because what do you wear when you're
[27:49]naked? I mean, it was the worst, but I didn't know what else to wear. It was freezing cold and I
[27:55]did this interview fully in the nude for a day, walked around and it was quite the experience.
[28:01]So I mean, that was from me putting myself really out there. Well, that was wild.
[28:06]Well, I definitely think that gives you permission then to write a book called What Wild Women Do.
[28:13]Thanks. Thanks.
[28:16]Carla, thank you so much for coming back on Monster Time Treat, bugs, congratulations on this
[28:20]beautiful, fascinating, wonderful book. Well, thanks so much, Zibi. Thank you. It was great to see you again.
[28:27]You too. Sorry. Bye.
[28:31]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[28:35]follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my
[28:40]newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom
[28:45]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[28:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.