Meghan Riordan Jarvis, END OF THE HOUR: A Therapist's Memoir
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
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[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Megan Reord in Jarvis is the author of End of the Hour, A Therapist, memoir.
[1:08]This is a zippy book and I am so excited to bring this book to you.
[1:13]I met Megan in Zippy's virtual book club, which I started at the request of some friends
[1:18]who had been coming to my author salon here in New York City.
[1:21]And Megan was a vocal, super smart, amazing trauma therapist who during the pandemic
[1:27]had amazing things to say about every book we read.
[1:30]I asked her at one point, do you have a book in you?
[1:33]There seem like you might.
[1:35]And she did.
[1:37]And over time, it became this book and I am thrilled to have played a role in helping
[1:42]her story get into the world.
[1:44]Megan is a podcast host.
[1:46]Grief is my side hustle, two-time TEDx speaker and psychotherapist specializing in grief
[1:52]and trauma and loss.
[1:53]After experiencing PTSD following the deaths of both of her parents, she founded talking
[1:58]point partners to help employers address complex emotions such as grief in the work
[2:03]place.
[2:04]Megan is currently at work on Can Anyone Tell Me Why, 25 essential questions about grief
[2:08]and loss, which publishes with Sam's true media in 2024.
[2:12]Originally from New England, Megan currently lives in Maryland with her husband and their
[2:15]three children, where competing piles of Lego bricks and books cover most surfaces of
[2:21]the house.
[2:22]We're partnering with Moleskin on all of our Zippy books.
[2:25]So please know that you can get 15% off paper and bags at moleskin.com and free
[2:32]personalization with the purchase of a notebook by entering the code all caps Zippy.
[2:38]Visit moleskin.com, m-o-l-e-s-k-i-n-e.com, make sure that you put in the code Zippy and that
[2:46]Zippy, Z-i-b-b-y, is in all capital letters.
[2:50]The Moleskin journals that we are doing for many of our Zippy books are customized for
[2:55]each book.
[2:56]The colors match the colors of our covers.
[2:58]We have a special thing printed inside.
[3:01]We have a belly band that goes around the books, talking about the tag lines of all of
[3:06]our books and the expression stories are best when shared, because come on, they are.
[3:12]Here's our episode.
[3:13]Welcome, Megan.
[3:14]Thank you so much for coming on mom.
[3:15]Don't have time to read books to discuss your memoir and of the hour.
[3:20]I am so excited to be here.
[3:22]It's like a super surreal thing that you are in your library interviewing me right
[3:29]now.
[3:30]I just can't believe it.
[3:31]I can't.
[3:32]It's so amazing.
[3:33]We tell everybody the whole history of, and I'll chime in of how we met and how this
[3:38]book is in the world.
[3:39]Oh my God.
[3:40]I know.
[3:41]So I was on a podcast the other day and they were like, tell us how you got your book deal.
[3:44]I was like, oh, don't you want to know how I met my husband?
[3:48]That was much more straightforward.
[3:51]So I was reading the book Inheritance by Danny Shapiro.
[3:54]That is where it started.
[3:55]A friend of mine that I went to high school with, I posted it and was like, I think this
[3:59]is the best book I've ever read.
[4:01]And a friend of mine said that author is coming to this book, this new book club that I just
[4:07]became a part of.
[4:08]You can come.
[4:09]And I had just gone up to Koppolo to see Danny Shapiro and I was like, oh, I'm definitely
[4:13]coming.
[4:14]And then I zoom in to what I assumed was going to be hundreds of people.
[4:17]I think there were like 20 of us.
[4:20]And here you are.
[4:21]And you are hosting, you know, we talk about the book for 20 minutes.
[4:25]And then Danny Shapiro comes in and talks to, you know, the 20 or 30 of us.
[4:31]And I was like, what is this group and how do I?
[4:34]And at that point, I was still really grieving.
[4:36]I was still in really early grief.
[4:39]And that the level of conversation was so it reminded me of safer times when I was in high
[4:46]school and people were really interested in having intellectual conversation.
[4:50]So back then, we were reading essentially a memoir a week.
[4:54]So I just ordered the whole stack and was like, one o'clock on Tuesdays, I have to be
[5:00]at the book club.
[5:01]And it was this incredible community of people who, you know, a memoir is essentially
[5:06]a grief story, you know, from my perspective, if you're if you're bothering to tell your
[5:11]story, it's because something deeply difficult happened.
[5:14]So I was just really moved by the books.
[5:17]And of course, I I'm a trauma therapist specializing in grief and loss.
[5:21]So I also really was engaged in the books.
[5:24]And then you had this unbelievable tragedy happen in your family where your mother-in-law
[5:29]died and your grandmother-in-law died.
[5:32]And so then you and I had sort of this like conversation about resources and connection.
[5:39]And you really graciously invited me to that funeral, which was on Zoom, and there was
[5:45]my cousin Bill McCormick.
[5:48]And I'm texting him and I'm like, what are you doing at this funeral?
[5:51]And he's like, what are you talking, what are you doing at this funeral?
[5:55]And at that time, it was during COVID.
[5:57]I was in a house in Montana because my family was traveling, but I was still making every
[6:01]Tuesday book club.
[6:03]And he was like, Zippy and my wife have been best friends since camp or grade school
[6:09]and I was like, of course, that's exactly how it is.
[6:12]So then you and I would meet in the Zoom room and also text and talk and share resources.
[6:19]And I'd say have you seen this book and I remember connecting you to Hope Edelman because
[6:23]I got really obsessed with a book she was reading.
[6:26]And it just was this network of extraordinary people who cared about each other, kind of
[6:30]knew each other's stories, got to know authors, were rooting for each other.
[6:35]I have chills when I'm talking about it like it's hard to explain what this book club
[6:38]was for me.
[6:40]And then I started really writing and I was talking about how I was writing.
[6:46]And we had just come back.
[6:48]We came back from our four four slash five month long trip.
[6:53]And I was really writing about the grief story that becomes my memoir and you sent me an
[6:59]email.
[7:00]And the email said, do you think you have a memoir in you?
[7:05]And it came across at like five in the evening and my husband was cooking and I was like,
[7:11]hey, babe, can you hear?
[7:14]And I shouted to him and I was like, what do you think this means?
[7:17]And he was like, um, I think it means what the words say and I was like, what?
[7:22]She wants and then you explained that you had some plans and that you were maybe going
[7:25]to do an imprint and all of that didn't immediately happen, but instead in lieu of I worked
[7:33]on my memoir with your support and this fellowship that you put together with Carolyn
[7:37]Murnick, this extraordinary editor who helped me.
[7:41]And that is what happened.
[7:42]And then the minute Carolyn and I said, this is a book because it was not a book in the beginning.
[7:47]In the beginning, it was a bunch of almost like journal entries and God love that woman.
[7:53]She worked very hard to sort of teach me how to write a book.
[7:56]And the minute we said, this is a book she called me and she was like, you did it.
[8:01]It's a book.
[8:02]And then two days later, I was in the UK and you were like, hey, do you have a minute?
[8:07]And I was like, oh, I'm either in trouble or you called and said, we want to buy your
[8:13]book and buy that time.
[8:16]I knew that you were starting, you know, you were like, don't tell anyone, I'm going
[8:19]to do this myself.
[8:20]And I was like, this woman is such a badass.
[8:22]Like she said, you know, to a lot of my friends, they're like, how do you get this all
[8:27]done?
[8:28]My publishers, because she was at a clip even faster than mine.
[8:33]But I really understood your passion.
[8:35]Like I really understood what you were trying to do.
[8:38]And it was, you know, I was in this, this little fellowship of other writers who were writing
[8:43]their extraordinary stories at the same time.
[8:46]And we were, we were meeting, I think once a month and sharing writing.
[8:50]And so what I said on a different podcast recently is there just was not one single moment
[8:55]where when I was carrying this story that I didn't feel really supported by a deep
[9:01]bench of people.
[9:03]And I understand from other people who are writing memoir, which is such a hard process that
[9:10]that isn't always the case, that really it can feel very alone.
[9:13]And you can get really in your own sort of like your head and feel self conscious.
[9:19]And I just never had that.
[9:20]I had from the very beginning to tell us more of your story, maybe with fewer words,
[9:27]more guidance.
[9:29]So our story to me is just the most, it's like the most extraordinary universe passing
[9:35]me a teacup when I most needed it.
[9:38]And, and just changed my life completely, totally changed my life.
[9:42]I mean, I don't even have the same day job anymore that I had when I started.
[9:48]And I think you said to me, like I, I don't know that you understood how fresh in my grief
[9:54]I really was when we first met that it was really, you know, again, we can talk about
[9:58]the memoir, but I had been really.
[10:00]from it. And so to have this structure, you know, that's something that we talk about in
[10:04]grief and loss. This structure is really important. And Tuesday was the one hour, but, you know,
[10:12]I also had to go to bed and read, get in bed and read the book, you know, I needed to be able to
[10:17]talk about it. So it just, I mean, I love our story. It's like a meat cute, but, you know, we're
[10:24]taking an hour to tell just in the beginning of a of a movie. Oh my gosh. I know, I've been trying
[10:29]to explain it. I'm like, but Megan, like, I feel such like pride. I'm so excited for you. I'm
[10:35]like, I feel like a parent watching a kid, like in the in the big play at the end of the year.
[10:41]And you're just like beaming, you know, and like knowing that they're singing so well. And you're like,
[10:45]oh my gosh, like, I can't, I don't sing like that, but I can watch and see something that I
[10:50]helps like have a little piece in and look at what they do. And anyway, it's like the greatest feeling.
[10:55]So I'm just so excited for you. Okay. So tell listeners now that they know all about us,
[11:00]tell us about the book, about the grief. I did not know you were so fresh and grief when we first met.
[11:05]I didn't know. And, you know, some of the timeline of all of it, I was sort of hazy in my mind.
[11:11]And I'm like, oh my gosh, all that we went through. And then like, you lost a friend, the friend,
[11:15]a friend who was in the group with us that I didn't, I didn't, I should say that that
[11:21]Christine Shim, who was a friend of mine from where I went to high school, who invited me into the
[11:25]group died by suicide. And you were the first person I called when that happened because in the
[11:30]two of us just were on the phone. I had rented a little house in Baltimore to work on some chapters
[11:35]for the memoir and a friend called. And she and I at that point were also running. It still exists
[11:40]a book club with my friends from high school. So yeah. And, and, you know, I put in the
[11:46]acknowledgements. Like, I just hope she can see what she gave me and what she created by putting
[11:52]us together. I know it's it. Yeah. I mean, it's life and death all the time everywhere.
[11:57]It just doesn't. Yeah. It's like suicide prevention month right now. And we're talking. And like,
[12:03]every, it's just so crazy. Everything, you know, it is. It is. It is. Okay. Your story, please.
[12:10]Yeah. So the memoir. So the book that I wrote is the story. So I work as a trauma therapist,
[12:17]specializing grief and loss. And I have for 20 years, largely because that is the part of therapy
[12:24]that is the most compelling to me. And I'm really good at. So I'm trained in all kinds of
[12:29]complicated treatments, not just come in and tell me your problems, but come in and let's do some
[12:34]actual work to move energy through your body. And I experienced the death of a teenager. My
[12:40]family and I were on a beach, you know, a 16 year old went into the water and didn't come out who
[12:44]was beloved by everyone in my town. And I sort of in my own experience with therapy came to
[12:51]understand that that was a formative event. And I did a lot of therapy around that sort of
[12:56]childhood trauma that mostly went un acknowledged in, you know, the mid 80s because that's what we
[13:02]thought we were supposed to do is like, don't talk about bad things around kids. And in 2016,
[13:09]my dad was diagnosed with small cell cancer when he was 79. And I understood I worked in hospitals,
[13:16]I had doctors as friends, that small cell cancer is a death sentence. So I spent a year,
[13:21]I sat down with my husband and I was like, I had a pretty complicated relationship with my dad,
[13:25]but I was like, I do not want to look back on this year and regret anything. So I would like to
[13:30]to go to just be with him as much as possible. So the first part of the book is really about that.
[13:36]My experience of just tending and being a part of my dad's death participating in it. And
[13:43]and the image that I use for this is like, it's like sipping little cups of grief over,
[13:49]you know, a year's time. He died basically a year to his diagnosis as we expected that he would.
[13:55]And you know, I was there when he died. And so part of the book is sort of, you know, the taking
[14:01]stock and also the anatomy, the crazy things that happen that you have to attend to when someone's
[14:07]dying and when they have to have medical support and intervention and those things. And then two
[14:13]years later, which is relevant because there's lots of statistics that when one partner dies,
[14:19]another partner dies two years later. And most famously, the Queen of England died almost two years
[14:25]Prince Philip died. So there's a lot of data on that. And my mom, I was on vacation with my mom,
[14:31]she and I had gone to Maine for a week together first, which was pretty extraordinary. We didn't
[14:38]always travel, but my husband had taken our kids to the UK where he's from. And I called my mom and
[14:46]said, why don't we do something together? Because, you know, she was still really deep in grief,
[14:50]although I don't think I fully appreciated that until I experienced the death of her. So I went to
[14:57]her house on Cape Cod after our trip to Maine for our annual one month, you know, use my parents
[15:03]for their beach house month. And she was, she was ill. We knew she was ill, but we did not know
[15:10]she was dying. And she went to sleep one night and did not wake up. And my experience of that,
[15:16]which I write about in the book is I was driving to to Boston to pick up my godson. It was
[15:23]really early in the morning because I wanted to get him before all the traffic. So I was driving
[15:29]to Boston and I had this sensation, which I remember from being pregnant of like real pressure in
[15:36]my pelvis. And then I felt like my water broke. And then this has happened to me a few times in my
[15:41]life. It was like I could see the sentence almost like a meme. She died. And then I just knew she
[15:47]died. And so I texted my husband who was, you know, just waking up and doing some work at the house
[15:54]and said, have you seen my mom? And I just, it's like I could predict everything he was going to
[15:59]text and say, I mean, I just knew. And he said, no, maybe she went to church and I was like,
[16:04]that's insane. You know, she, she wasn't eating. She, she wouldn't have gotten dressed and gone to
[16:08]church. And so then I started driving and then he called and told me he wanted me to pull over
[16:15]and I had four kids in the back of my minivan. And so there's this moment that I talk about and
[16:20]it's really important to me. You know, there are lots when you're writing a memoir, there are
[16:24]million things you could say. And it's hard, right? Because there's other people there. And so
[16:29]you want to tell your story without accidentally adjacent telling their story, but not minimizing
[16:34]their experience. I ended up, I was in Boston. So like those crazy clover leaf exits where you
[16:41]like go in a circle for four minutes before you come out the other side. And I was in like a broken
[16:46]down parking lot where there was, you know, an off-brand Dairy Queen. And that's where I pulled the
[16:52]car over and I left the kids were playing Pokemon in the car. Thank God. And I just left it
[16:56]idling and walked around the other side. And, you know, my husband told me she died. And I was an
[17:02]hour and about 20 minutes away from my house. And there is this moment that I understand clinically
[17:11]because people have told me about this moment so many times where there's like your whole before
[17:17]life is like collapsing into the pavement. You're never going to see it again. And there's no,
[17:25]you have no idea how you're going to move forward. So it's like your own, you know, Buddhist talk
[17:29]about being in the present moment. Like that's all there was was the present moment. There was
[17:34]like this present moment and then the next moment after this and then the next moment after that.
[17:39]And I chose in that moment to sort of pack up the notion that my mother had died and really
[17:47]attend to the fact that I had four kids in the car that I needed to get safely where they needed
[17:52]to get. And I knew I would be able to do that because I worked as an emergency clinician. I knew
[17:55]what it took to sort of zip into that part of me. But I never really zipped out. And so about a month
[18:04]after my mom died, but starting just like minutes, I would say it started in that parking lot,
[18:11]but really starting just minutes after her funeral, I could feel myself in my body. I could feel
[18:19]myself developing PTSD. And again, it's like, it's like when someone describes something to you in
[18:25]a book, like I describe France, like, oh, it has mountains and it's beautiful. And there's
[18:30]like really good creamy butter. But like when you go to France, you're like, oh, this is what they
[18:36]meant. So after spending at literal hundreds of hours with clients saying it felt like this,
[18:43]I had this whole meta cognition of like, oh my God, I know what this is. And I still probably
[18:51]had two or three weeks where I was like, but I'm a clinician. I can take care of this myself.
[18:57]But the truth is when your mind and body kind of corrupt like that, it doesn't matter what you've
[19:02]learned. There is no doing it by yourself. The whole purpose is you are not safe inside the vessel
[19:08]that is your body. And for me, what it was happening, I sort of rushed with the kids to my mom's body,
[19:16]and I prayed over it after she died, even though that's not my ritual. It was her ritual. And really
[19:23]without thinking that that might do me damage. So for those weeks, what was happening in the beginning,
[19:30]it was like when there was a pause, but eventually it was all the time. I was just seeing flashes
[19:35]of the images of her dead body. And I just had this deep and profound guilt of like, it is my fault.
[19:41]I knew she was sick. My mom was five feet tall and I'm five, eight. And she weighed 100 pounds
[19:49]and I do not. But she was formidable. And she did not want my help while she was ill. She didn't
[19:56]want me to talk to her about it. We ended up sort of fighting about it.
[20:00]And the consequence of me not being more assertive
[20:05]is something that I still wonder about and live with now.
[20:09]And I feel like it's important to say that PTSD still exists.
[20:13]So I still have days where I see those images
[20:15]and think those things.
[20:16]I just have more distance before it was like
[20:21]a close talker right in front of my face
[20:22]and I couldn't see behind it.
[20:24]And now I can get it to sort of sit next to me on the couch.
[20:28]But because of my clinician
[20:30]and I work with really complicated cases,
[20:32]their grief generally resolves on its own.
[20:35]It has its own physical.
[20:37]I remember you texting me and being like my brain is so foggy.
[20:41]And I was like, yeah, no, let me tell you the neuroscience
[20:43]by that.
[20:44]That is a real thing that happens.
[20:46]And there's, I don't know why we don't just teach that
[20:49]like we would, you know, a health class, but that's real.
[20:53]So I knew about all of those things
[20:56]and I knew as my symptoms were getting worse
[20:58]than I was headed in the wrong direction.
[20:59]And I was lucky to have a relationship
[21:02]with a treatment center and other clinicians
[21:05]to make one phone call.
[21:06]And, you know, them say we'll see you on Monday.
[21:09]So I checked myself into the same facility
[21:12]that I had sent probably, I don't know, 20 or 30 patients.
[21:15]I mean, I've sent another 10 since then
[21:18]this world class facility in Tennessee
[21:21]where I had been before and done some training before
[21:24]and really trusted.
[21:25]And then I was there, a typical stay is, you know,
[21:28]probably four weeks, maybe a little longer.
[21:31]And I went for three weeks because I didn't need all the,
[21:33]you know, core class education.
[21:36]But I just sat while a therapist used the exact same
[21:39]interventions that I'm trained in.
[21:41]And so I had a lot of hope and belief that it could work.
[21:45]And then I just was really lucky to have it work
[21:49]to be able to come back.
[21:51]And, you know, coming back again, we're sort of full circle.
[21:54]I was still really shaky.
[21:56]I mean, my relationships were really shaky.
[21:58]My friendships were really shaky.
[22:00]I didn't feel like myself.
[22:01]I mean, it was four years ago.
[22:03]I still don't feel like that self.
[22:05]I'm not that, I'm not the person I was before all of this.
[22:09]And the writing, the writing became the therapy, honestly.
[22:13]I didn't want to do talk therapy.
[22:15]So I was writing, it started out as letters to my mom,
[22:18]you know, I would, I called her Mimi.
[22:19]So every day I'd be like,
[22:20]do you hear me?
[22:21]Here's what I would have told you on the phone.
[22:24]Because I talked to her in most days.
[22:26]And I would, you know, oh, that makes me emotional.
[22:29]I would, I know.
[22:31]I would write, you know, I would just write and write
[22:34]and write all the things, all the little details
[22:37]that I would have told her on the phone.
[22:39]And then it sort of became more like writing, you know,
[22:42]like a thread and a point.
[22:44]And my mom was an incredible reader.
[22:47]We wrote her obituary in my favorite line
[22:49]in the obituary is that she read every nonfiction book
[22:52]in the Q2 library where she was from.
[22:55]So one of the things that's just so deeply surreal.
[22:57]And I had this moment at Alicia Fernandez, Miranda's event
[23:02]at the strand where her parents were there.
[23:05]And they were looking at her with this like adoration.
[23:08]And I said to her mom afterwards like,
[23:11]please don't take this the wrong way.
[23:12]That was so good for me.
[23:15]Because I will have that moment, but not with my parents.
[23:20]Oh my God.
[23:22]I'm so sorry.
[23:24]It's okay.
[23:26]But my dad was a publisher.
[23:28]They read, you know, the famous bookstore company down here,
[23:32]politics and prose is an incredible bookstore
[23:36]that is run by incredible people.
[23:38]And when my dad was dying, I wrote an article about this.
[23:41]I went in, my dad liked true crime and biography.
[23:46]And I can't bear either of those books.
[23:48]I just can't.
[23:49]I mean, I had like an eight minute old baby.
[23:52]And he was talking, he was asking me if I had read
[23:54]like Gore Vidal's new memoir.
[23:57]And I was like, old man, please stop, no.
[24:00]So I went into politics and prose and said,
[24:02]my dad is dying, but he can still read.
[24:04]Could you guys just pick up books?
[24:06]And so every week, I would like pull up,
[24:08]put my flashers on in traffic, you know, during rush hour,
[24:12]run in, find Aaron, and he would say,
[24:15]which of these books do you want me to send him?
[24:17]So books were such a family shared value,
[24:23]but I didn't really love memoir.
[24:25]I read a lot, you know, my job is a hard job.
[24:28]So I read a lot of books that were like,
[24:30]an English last inheritance garden from her grandmother.
[24:35]There's a surly gardener who lives next door.
[24:37]Like I love those books.
[24:39]Those were the books that I used to read.
[24:40]And my mom was like, why would you read things
[24:42]that aren't true when you could learn from actual,
[24:46]you know, people are here real stories.
[24:49]And now, I mean, sort of, you know,
[24:51]I rarely read novels.
[24:53]I mostly only read memoir.
[24:56]And so I just, it is hard.
[24:58]It is a wild thing to think they never got
[25:02]to see this part of my life unfold
[25:04]because they would have really enjoyed it.
[25:05]They made a lot of sacrifices to make sure
[25:08]that I was well educated.
[25:10]They made a lot of sacrifices in general.
[25:13]And we have just incredible experiences
[25:15]and bookstores and libraries.
[25:17]So there is a part of me.
[25:19]I know you're good friends with the rabbi Steve leader.
[25:21]He said to me once, look at the world
[25:24]through their eyes for them.
[25:26]And I do that a lot.
[25:27]I do, I'm like, mom, look.
[25:30]Yeah, I guess.
[25:31]I'm so overwhelmed.
[25:33]This is so beautiful and so sad and so real.
[25:36]And you're amazing.
[25:38]And the story is amazing.
[25:40]And the book is amazing,
[25:42]but way more important than the book is you, the person,
[25:45]how you connect with people, how you talk to people
[25:47]about your experience, how many people,
[25:49]even this conversation is probably helping right now.
[25:52]You're amazing.
[25:53]You're the sweetest.
[25:54]And this has all just been really meaningful for me.
[25:56]I can't, I just can't imagine where I would be
[26:00]in my life without all of those pieces that grew.
[26:05]In trauma, we talk about traumatic growth.
[26:09]The trauma is the event.
[26:10]The traumatized is the meaning that is negative.
[26:14]But then there is this unbelievable
[26:17]as you begin to regulate and live again.
[26:20]You get to plant seeds in that burned down field.
[26:26]And I just can't believe what my life has grown
[26:30]and given me since then.
[26:33]I wish they were here to see it.
[26:34]My dad, oh my God.
[26:36]I published an article about grief and loss
[26:39]in the MIT Sloan Business Magazine, which I know you know.
[26:43]And I mean, I'm not joking.
[26:45]My siblings and I have five siblings
[26:47]that we were texting each other.
[26:48]Like dad would be standing outside the post office
[26:51]having photocopied this at kinkos
[26:53]and would be handing it out to people.
[26:55]Like he just, he would have had a tattooed on his chest.
[26:58]So, you know, I, they're not here to see it.
[27:02]I can imagine how they would have reacted.
[27:04]And I do sort of feel like maybe they do see it.
[27:07]Maybe this is, maybe I see it for them.
[27:10]There are a lot of unknowns.
[27:12]And I know that you know so much as a,
[27:14]you know, how to expert in this field.
[27:16]But there is still so much about souls
[27:19]and the universe.
[27:20]I know this sounds so okay, but we don't know.
[27:22]So I like to believe that too.
[27:24]I like to believe that, you know,
[27:27]I remember when I was really, really close to my grandmother
[27:30]and she was the one who was like so supportive
[27:33]of my own writing and I had the same thing.
[27:35]When my memoir is coming out, I was like,
[27:36]I can't believe she didn't live to see this.
[27:38]Like she is the one who would call me every time
[27:40]and say, what are you writing?
[27:41]Are you writing?
[27:42]Don't give up or you're still writing.
[27:43]And like now finally I got this book done
[27:45]and she wasn't there.
[27:46]And I remember talking to my husband about it
[27:48]and like just like crying.
[27:50]And this is just what happens in life, right?
[27:52]It is what happens in life.
[27:54]People that we wanna see it, but maybe I don't know.
[27:56]I don't know why it happens this way
[27:58]and maybe there's no rhyme or reason.
[28:00]But I like to believe that on some level
[28:02]in some universe that they know and they are happy.
[28:07]Well, it's funny cause again, Steve Leader talks about
[28:10]sort of like what's your legacy?
[28:11]What would you want your legacy to be?
[28:13]And you know, I had some of those conversations with my dad.
[28:17]I think I intuitively have a better sense with my mom.
[28:21]But I think they, well, first of all,
[28:23]I don't think my mom would have loved.
[28:25]People are like, did you dedicate your book to your mom?
[28:27]She would have been so proud of you.
[28:28]I don't think so.
[28:29]I don't think she would have loved me writing a book
[28:31]but that was so deeply emotionally open.
[28:34]She was old school.
[28:35]Like why do you need to talk to your problems
[28:37]about the bubble with everyone listening?
[28:39]And also I do not think she would have loved it
[28:42]that I got so sick on account of her death.
[28:46]But I do think she would have loved
[28:49]to be, to see my library of Congress number
[28:52]in the inside of my book.
[28:54]I think she would have, we did a retreat with you
[28:56]where we learned about like how does the New York Times
[28:59]bestseller list work?
[29:00]Like the idea that I couldn't call her and be like,
[29:02]mom, I have to tell you this because I know she didn't know.
[29:06]Those things, I feel like my curiosity, my interest
[29:11]and my ability to pivot into writing and reading
[29:13]really is a legacy of theirs.
[29:15]I mean, it really is.
[29:16]There were books all over my house,
[29:18]there are books all over my house now.
[29:20]And I know that's not the case for everybody.
[29:23]And my dad used to do this thing,
[29:25]which I've now learned lots of dads do.
[29:27]He used to cut articles out of like the financial times
[29:31]the New York Times and just like put my name on it
[29:34]and sort of circle something.
[29:36]I didn't even always know what he wanted,
[29:38]but it was a way of communicating.
[29:40]Like we didn't sit and have a deep conversation
[29:42]but it was his way of sort of saying like,
[29:44]I know you because I think you would like this article
[29:47]or you and he would send me books
[29:48]and I would send him books.
[29:50]So I do sort of feel like as a parent
[29:53]and as a person like,
[29:55]I think they would have liked this legacy.
[29:58]You know, maybe better than handing down a house.
[30:00]or, you know, China dishes, neither of which we kept.
[30:04]So, but the idea of writing matters and your story matters.
[30:08]And that it's a thread to connect to people.
[30:11]I mean, one thing I really was not, I didn't know to expect,
[30:15]is how gracious and accepting and again sort of back
[30:20]to that word of community writers are, particularly
[30:24]memoir writers, because there could be maybe some competition
[30:28]about publishing.
[30:29]I'm sure that exists, although, because I wasn't in that place,
[30:33]I didn't feel that.
[30:34]But memoir writers, you know, nobody can steal and take your story.
[30:39]Nobody can write in your voice.
[30:42]So I remember talking to the poet Maggie Smith
[30:44]when her memoir first came out and I was like,
[30:46]I used to really love you, Maggie, but now I hate you,
[30:49]because I've just never read anything more beautiful.
[30:52]And now I want to stop writing.
[30:54]And she said, that's absurd, that's so absurd.
[30:56]You know, your story is the only story
[31:00]that can't be told by anyone but you in your voice,
[31:03]in your words.
[31:05]And I just didn't know to expect that I didn't understand
[31:08]that that kind of rooting for each other
[31:11]and being delighted for each other and being touched
[31:14]and moved by each other was part of what I was entering into.
[31:18]I've been a solo practitioner for a long time.
[31:20]Me in my office, I call someone when there's a problem.
[31:24]Like, I don't know what to do with this nation
[31:25]and they say, try this.
[31:27]And that was kind of the extent of it.
[31:29]But what books have done in my life is, you know,
[31:33]I came to a different retreat to support a different author
[31:36]who was like nervous talking.
[31:37]And I was like, not a problem.
[31:38]Let me get a plan to get it.
[31:40]You know, that is a gift that I totally needed
[31:44]and didn't understand how much I needed it.
[31:47]It still happens.
[31:48]I mean, does it be authors have like a, you know,
[31:50]a WhatsApp thread where we're, right now we're planning
[31:53]to do karaoke at the Miami retreat with Alicia
[31:57]because she's an incredible singer.
[31:59]But that, you know, when people talk about writing,
[32:01]what you often hear is that it's a really solo project
[32:05]and that people kind of go into the woods alone
[32:07]and they get into this space alone.
[32:09]And that hasn't been my experience either.
[32:12]Just from the very beginning,
[32:13]I had people reading my pages and commenting on my pages
[32:15]and encouraging.
[32:17]And I started to tell you before we started recording
[32:20]at just this week I finished doing the audio book.
[32:23]And I have to tell you, I was, I was dreading this.
[32:26]First of all, finding three days in my account.
[32:28]I was like three days.
[32:29]I've just been three days in a sound booth.
[32:32]And it just seemed like it was gonna be hard and tedious.
[32:34]And I mean, a couple of things.
[32:36]One is I got a piece of advice in one of our Zippy classes
[32:39]to read the workout loud that reading it out loud
[32:42]actually helps.
[32:43]So I have read my book probably six times
[32:46]all the way through out out.
[32:48]But reading out it out loud,
[32:50]I mean, this was the first time I experienced
[32:53]an audience hearing it.
[32:54]So Lisa who was the producer
[32:56]and the Carter who was the tech,
[32:58]they were crying at times or they were laughing at times.
[33:03]And it was so validating and moving for me.
[33:07]I mean, I found myself choking up in the story
[33:09]at places that I haven't,
[33:10]maybe I choked up when I wrote them, but I hadn't.
[33:14]And so even just that, I felt like give me your phone numbers.
[33:17]Like we need to stay friends forever.
[33:19]Like we did this intimate, important,
[33:21]like you helped me in this experience.
[33:24]And that really, you know, my phone book,
[33:29]my iPhone really does have probably 50 new entries
[33:34]in the past few years, new friends that are a part
[33:37]of this community.
[33:38]And I didn't know to expect that either.
[33:40]This is amazing.
[33:41]This is so amazing.
[33:43]We're like already out of time.
[33:45]Thank you so much.
[33:46]I could literally do like a 16 hour podcast with you.
[33:49]We will have to continue this just to chat
[33:51]because I love hearing this all of what happened
[33:54]from your perspective and how great it is now.
[33:56]And my heart is just like so full.
[33:59]I'm so excited for you.
[34:01]And I'm so excited for all the people
[34:04]who are gonna be helped by everything
[34:05]you have to offer in so many ways.
[34:07]So God, I'm so grateful.
[34:10]And I've said this to you before
[34:11]you are like a literal fairy godmother
[34:14]where you're like here, you know,
[34:15]here's a princess dress and all the materials
[34:18]and resources and I know how excited you are.
[34:22]I just know how genuine that is.
[34:24]I have felt that from the very beginning
[34:26]and that kind of vote of confidence
[34:29]when you're trying to do something completely new
[34:31]and hard at the age of 49 is so unbelievably needed.
[34:35]So I'm just, I explode with gratitude all the time.
[34:39]And really I just can't believe we did a podcast.
[34:41]The podcast that I listen to all the time
[34:43]that I am gonna hear my own voice.
[34:45]It is just bonkers, this whole thing.
[34:48]I'm so grateful.
[34:50]Me too.
[34:51]Bye Megan.
[34:52]Bye Zebi.
[34:54]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[34:56]to Read Books.
[34:57]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[35:00]at Zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[35:03]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[35:05]and sign up for my virtual book club
[35:07]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[35:09]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[35:11]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[35:13]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[35:15]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.