Minna Dubin, MOM RAGE: The Everyday Crisis of Modern Motherhood
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes.
[0:34]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Mina Duppin is the author of mom rage, the everyday crisis of modern motherhood.
[1:07]This episode was guest hosted by Julie Chavez, author of everyone but myself forthcoming
[1:13]from Zippy Books and host of Ask a Librarian in the Podcast.
[1:17]Mina Duppin is, as I said, the author of mom rage, her writing has appeared in the New York
[1:21]Times salon parents, the Philadelphia Enquirer, Rompa, the forward Hobart, mother magazine
[1:27]a muta and literary mama.
[1:30]She is the recipient of an artist enrichment grant from the Kentucky Foundation for
[1:33]Women.
[1:34]As a leading feminist voice on mom rage, Mina has appeared on MSNBC Good Morning America,
[1:39]the Tamron Hall show, NBC 10 Boston and NPR.
[1:42]She lives in Berkeley, California with her husband two kids and no pets because enough
[1:47]is enough.
[1:48]Mina, thanks so much for being here today.
[1:50]Welcome to mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:53]Thank you for having me.
[1:54]I'm excited to talk to you.
[1:55]Oh, I'm thrilled that you're here and I'm so glad we get to talk about your book, mom rage,
[2:01]the everyday crisis of modern motherhood.
[2:04]It is so impressive.
[2:06]I want to dive right into it.
[2:07]Will you talk about, I mean, first of all, as a mom, the title, I was like mom rage, yep,
[2:13]check, can I identify?
[2:15]But I want to talk about how this process started for you.
[2:18]Tell the listeners, how did you decide to write this book?
[2:21]What was its origin point?
[2:23]Before I was writing this book, I was writing another book that has never seen the light
[2:27]of day.
[2:28]But one of the things that was part of this book was an essay that was published in
[2:34]The New York Times in 2019 called The Rage Mothers Don't Talk About.
[2:39]And the response to that essay was so humongous from moms from around the world.
[2:45]I just got just blasted by emails from mothers, basically saying me too.
[2:52]I didn't know this was a thing.
[2:53]I'm so grateful that maybe I'm not the worst mother in the world.
[2:58]And those emails basically sent me on a path of looking into this idea of mom rage and
[3:05]thinking that maybe it wasn't also that I was the worst mother in the world.
[3:09]Like me and the moms were sort of having a feedback loop.
[3:13]Like if we're all feeling it, maybe it's a societal thing and not a personal problem.
[3:21]Yes.
[3:22]And so that sort of led me on this path.
[3:24]And then the pandemic, as we know happened and mom rage kind of skyrocketed.
[3:30]And I got more emails all of a sudden.
[3:32]And I realized that the pandemic was increasing mothers feelings of rage.
[3:37]The New York Times republished that first essay.
[3:40]And then I wrote a second piece called I'm going to physically explode mom rage in a pandemic.
[3:47]Anyway, both pieces went viral and I got a book contract, basically.
[3:52]I got this topic so I did.
[3:54]Not a bad way to go about getting the book deal.
[3:57]Good for you.
[3:58]Thank you.
[3:59]Yeah.
[4:00]No, but what's fantastic?
[4:01]I mean, I say that jokingly, but what is actually incredible about that is that you
[4:07]struck such a powerful nerve that there would be that kind of response and that so many
[4:12]people, especially moms, could feel seen and understood in that.
[4:16]I mean, what a gift.
[4:17]What was that emotionally like for you when you were describing just the outpouring of emails?
[4:23]What was that experience like sort of the absorption of that response?
[4:29]It was a mix.
[4:30]I mean, I think as a writer, you know, it's so like in the dark, like you write up with so
[4:37]much faith that like spending my time in my room, like hunched over my computer is worth
[4:43]it.
[4:44]Like this is all worth something.
[4:45]Yes.
[4:46]And there's not many times in life as a writer, I think that you get such a response to
[4:51]your work.
[4:52]And so like on that level, it was just super thrilling for me that like people cared about
[4:57]what I had to say.
[4:58]Like that felt really exciting and like was like nice for my ego, you know, of course.
[5:03]Yeah.
[5:04]And then I think it felt like it felt like I was buzzing when I was getting all that response.
[5:11]Like I felt like I had hit on something really important that I hadn't realized.
[5:17]I didn't know that like that this was this like undercurrent that was happening is all
[5:23]across the world actually.
[5:25]And I felt very excited that I was on to something, you know, yes, I felt like a scientist.
[5:32]That makes total sense.
[5:33]You had sort of a discovery moment of, you know, find this little zeitgeist of that
[5:40]that makes complete sense to me.
[5:41]I think I'd feel the same way.
[5:43]Me too.
[5:44]This is great news.
[5:45]Yeah.
[5:46]I want to talk about, okay, so it turns into a book which makes complete sense, right?
[5:50]Like you had written because I think I was listening to something recently about, you
[5:54]know, how do you know when you have a book and not just a couple of essays.
[5:57]So obviously this was a natural build for you off of the response that you had seen.
[6:02]So let's kind of dive in, how do you define rage?
[6:08]How would you define it for this book?
[6:10]Yeah.
[6:11]I mean, people get confused between rage and anger and they can look similar.
[6:16]But the difference between rage and anger is basically that there is a loss of control.
[6:22]With rage, it feels like it is happening to you.
[6:26]And like you're like sort of under its spell.
[6:29]Like you almost like, even if you're like, oh, this is happening.
[6:34]And I know what shouldn't happen, but there's no stopping it now.
[6:37]Like it almost feels like you are not in control of what's happening.
[6:41]That makes sense.
[6:42]And I do, I can see how that, you know, we use a lot of terms, especially among
[6:49]mothers, right?
[6:50]Like I'm losing my mind today.
[6:51]I'm doing these things.
[6:52]And they really do have that echo of this out of body experience to it where it's like,
[6:58]I'm just not, I'm not in my right mind.
[7:01]And so it sounds like it relates a little bit to that for you.
[7:05]I think one of the things you did really well in this book, there was a lot to think about
[7:09]here.
[7:10]I really appreciated it.
[7:11]And I know before we started recording, we were discussing that I have a book that's very
[7:15]much about motherhood and mental health.
[7:17]And I think the self neglect that is so common and pervasive and expected really within
[7:25]our society.
[7:26]So the, the rage not only in response to that, but I think one of the things you did so
[7:30]well in your book that I appreciated was talking about the layers around rage and the other
[7:38]sort of emotions that are in there, like you talked a lot about shame and sort of the misunderstandings
[7:43]around rage and all those things.
[7:46]What will you talk a little bit about rage and unworthiness?
[7:50]Because that was one that was one of the most interesting pieces to me.
[7:53]I thought, Oh, I want to come back and read that again.
[7:57]Yeah, I definitely experienced that and struggle like on my own with self hatred.
[8:03]And in the book, I tell the story of having a therapist who I had heard just for a little
[8:07]while and she was like, I want to talk, I was like, I need to talk, we need to fix the
[8:11]rage.
[8:12]And she was like, we need to talk about how you treat yourself because they're related.
[8:15]Oh, therapist, man, they really just get in there, don't they?
[8:19]Godly, we pay them.
[8:21]They do.
[8:22]And I think that for me, it feels like there's a connection between perfectionism and
[8:29]like rigidity of like things needing to be perfect and like a lack of flexibility that
[8:36]I have with myself and the way that that also extends out to the people that I love, even
[8:42]though I absolutely don't want it to.
[8:45]And so like when things aren't happening the way, like I want them to happen, like I can
[8:49]get kind of intense about it.
[8:51]And I think living that life with like, you know, low level anxiety and perfectionism
[8:58]and like not feeling great about myself, like it kind of phrase you in a way that I think
[9:03]that it's like a faster route to fury when you're experiencing all those things at once.
[9:09]And yeah, I don't know how to better explain it than that.
[9:13]You explained it perfectly.
[9:14]That makes complete sense to me also because as you say perfectionists, I'm like, let me
[9:18]just raise my hand here.
[9:19]People who get intense when it's not going their way.
[9:22]That's me.
[9:23]Yeah.
[9:24]What you're saying too is it really does, it's like there's just a crack in it.
[9:29]You know, because we're so attached, especially for those of us who like things a certain
[9:33]way, we are attached to it going that way.
[9:36]So yeah, it's like we have a shorter fuse.
[9:38]Yeah.
[9:39]So it doesn't take as much.
[9:40]And it also feels important to like do the societal overlay of like women are taught to
[9:44]to be perfectionists.
[9:46]And mothers in particular, like there's so much pressure on mothers to be quote unquote
[9:51]perfect mothers.
[9:52]And like part of the perfectionism of motherhood is the self erasure of yourself.
[9:55]Like not really being an entity and not having needs.
[9:59]And so like it's.
[10:00]all related it's not just like I feel like with this book I'm always trying to be like
[10:04]this is the personal story and this is not a character flaw. That is such a freeing
[10:10]message that I feel like every mom needs to hear regardless of whether you know you've felt like
[10:15]you've gotten fully to kind of a point of rage or if you're more feeling angry I think it's such
[10:21]an important thing to note that the system is not set up for us to succeed right and that's
[10:25]something you do very well here and I'm going to jump ahead I had this was a later question
[10:30]like I put them in order I really don't. That makes me sound far more organized than I
[10:34]have with these here or your section I'm just kidding. Yeah exactly. Well I'll pretend like
[10:39]actually one of my friends recently said you're a type A but you masquerade as a type B
[10:43]and that's like huh okay um I think you might be right and let's not ever talk about that again
[10:48]but how do you combat discouragement about the systemic inequities and failures that make
[10:56]conditions for motherhood so impossible because that's something I keep running up against is I
[11:02]am finding myself especially in this midlife season I just am more pissed about the deal that we
[11:09]were handed and that we signed off on without knowing and so that part how do you personally deal
[11:16]with that and kind of what are your attempts around that? Yeah I mean I think it's too full
[11:22]I think part of it is just around building my own community and my friends and just like
[11:27]feeling like I have outlets and people to like to connect around the chair I want to be like
[11:32]to bitch too basically because that feels freeing and then it's like a way for moms to connect
[11:40]and then also like just in terms of hope because I do think that there's a lot of hope like I
[11:44]don't think that these conversations were happening before like yes I feel like there is a wave
[11:50]right now of specifically around like a feminist outlook about motherhood and including motherhood
[11:59]in the in the feminist fight in a way that I don't think motherhood has been included in it
[12:04]in a very long time and possibly not ever in this way and I feel like the conversation around
[12:10]motherhood is very different and it is exciting and it's part of me like feels like oh maybe it's
[12:16]just my bubble like you know I get worried like maybe it's just my Instagram bubble and so all the
[12:20]people I talk all the people I follow are like these feminist mom raiders talking about these feminist
[12:24]mom things but then it's like well Elizabeth Warren was talking about you know universal child care
[12:30]and I don't know I think that I feel like the platform is growing and I feel hopeful that
[12:37]that we're going to have paid parental leave at some point in the not too distant future
[12:41]oh I know that's just a tiny piece of what we need but like I'm going to celebrate when that
[12:47]happens you know absolutely well because if we see it as you're right there is it does feel like
[12:53]there is a tide of conversations that are happening and people that are talking about it more
[12:58]and you're right I listened to jopiat's podcast this was from a little bit ago but under the
[13:05]influence and she talked about the mom influence our community but one of the things she was talking
[13:09]about was that in the 90s especially there was such a push to mom harder and that that was really
[13:17]that time and I know you mentioned you know into the 2010s where it was helicopter parenting
[13:23]and now we have snow plough parenting or whatever the new one is but I do see you're exactly right
[13:30]a little bit more of a pushback and maybe a pause between the the ask and the response so
[13:36]you know things that were expected of me even and then I have to stop and say oh do I need to do
[13:42]that is that something I want to do is there's something that's appropriate for me to do so
[13:46]you're right I shouldn't be so cynical and hopeless when it comes to it I just have at least
[13:51]moments of like this is never gonna work yeah and it's like it's a constant personal battle too
[13:57]in terms of just like that pressure that you're talking about of momming harder and being like oh I'm
[14:02]gonna take my kids down to the down to the marina because it's 85 degrees tonight and we're hot
[14:08]and we're gonna go down there and then I can sit on the rock and just watch them play like they
[14:13]can just play with each other and then you know I have this more I'm like should I be like out there
[14:18]doing the thing or can I just let them like play with each other you know like that's that moment
[14:23]am I gonna be in the intensive mothering and do the like okay I'm in it I'm on the floor we're doing
[14:29]the thing we are playing all of us you know I love that I can like let them play with each other
[14:36]that's why I had a second kid so they could be friends oh one million percent yes you know that's
[14:43]such a good question and oh my gosh I'm listening to and I'm like yep that was me I still think I
[14:48]somewhat ruined my first child I tell him often I'm like sorry I probably did that too
[14:53]but I think I was in his business way too much like yeah I should just let the poor kid just
[14:58]hang out you know so some of these influences but he's not ruined luckily he's fine we don't
[15:04]need to worry about him right now but I love thinking about those sorts of questions and what
[15:09]a gift that hopefully in the season of life that you and I are in that we can give to the moms
[15:15]who are coming up behind us to say hey you can you can be a wonderful present mother and it doesn't
[15:22]have to look like that yeah because that feels like just setting them up for failure when you
[15:29]look back at kind of the beginning of your own journey to get to the other side of where you weren't
[15:36]feeling that rage that out of control feeling what was the point for you personally you know
[15:42]prior to therapy where you thought okay I need some support here I mean I feel like I had multiple
[15:48]of those moments where I was like oh this is bad like I am I am just miserable and I mean part of
[15:57]it was when my son was it was around napping basically sleep schedule I'm getting sweaty you're
[16:05]insane I know I know it was around napping and like he wouldn't nap and like and but we would like
[16:10]we were doing the sleep training thing and so we would always stick to this thing and I was the
[16:14]one who was home during naps and he would like be in his crib and like rejecting the nap and you
[16:18]according to like the thing I was following I would leave him in there for an hour that was his
[16:22]nap time and he could scream for the whole hour if he wanted but that was his nap time and I live
[16:27]in this teeny little Berkeley bungalow and I'd be down the hall like 10 feet away in my room
[16:32]crying in like a fetal position while and he'd be in his room crying you know it was just like
[16:37]it was brutal and that lasted forever is what it felt like and I just feel like that was like a
[16:44]big part of my misery I think for a while and also my husband definitely said to me like once
[16:50]or twice like you need to get help like this is not sustainable so yeah there were there were the
[16:55]happy like there were multiple moments where we were not working this is how you are miserable you
[17:00]want to kill everyone all the time yeah you know it's so tricky because I think sleep was definitely
[17:07]one of mine I'm listening to you I mean I my husband recently woke up one of our children they
[17:12]are teenagers and he woke one of them up like in the morning at 10 a.m. and I was like what are you
[17:18]doing you don't ever wake up anyone who's sleeping and it was this throwback to those days exactly
[17:25]where when someone was napping I was like everything stops don't even don't even look at anyone
[17:29]else in this house this is just silence so it just makes me feel so seen to know I wasn't the only
[17:35]nut job out there oh no and you know and as and no you're not you're not a nut job and I'm also
[17:41]now I'm like looking in the book trying to find it but also I remember I wrote about sleep like
[17:46]sleep is this like huge thing that we don't talk about and like there was a study where like
[17:51]and like some huge amount of mothers who felt anger also either felt like they were getting
[17:59]poor sleep or felt like their children were getting poor sleep and there was like a direct
[18:03]correlation between how you feel about your sleep and how angry you are that is incredible
[18:12]and not surprising to me I know say that but but I wouldn't necessarily put them together
[18:17]but it's so true and also all the conversations around sleep at least in my mind were little
[18:21]were basically just totally fear based like if your kid doesn't sleep they're never going to make
[18:26]it in the real world so you might as well just accept it I was like well this is horrible because
[18:31]this child does not want to nap so do and and the sleep thing at least for me when I'm for like
[18:40]eight years because then I was dealing with like bed wedding and like and me my husband and I
[18:46]would wake up we would set an alarm and wake up at three in the morning to carry these heavy
[18:52]children out of bed and to the bat like the sleep thing was a mess forever like almost a decade
[18:59]we think about that like I think back to college when I would just sleep constantly and then
[19:04]yeah you're right for about 10 years it's like wow that's just not a thing that's
[19:07]happening for you anymore yeah yeah well this is the thing I love is that there's so much to
[19:13]connect on here because the mom rage I think the thing that you talk about the most and the thing
[19:19]I appreciate most about this book is that shame is so paralyzing and it is so counterproductive to
[19:28]our goals in general because the less we talk about something like rage the less we're inclined
[19:35]to see it as a systemic problem and need to fix it so was that something you went into it I mean you
[19:42]talked about it a lot in here which I appreciate but how did you approach that how did you approach
[19:48]trying to I guess lessen the shame as you went like did you have did you have a system for how
[19:56]that was going to go or was it just I'm going to lay it all out up
[20:00]all out on the table and share all these stories
[20:01]and hope that that's the cumulative effect.
[20:05]Yeah, I mean, I think the goal of the book
[20:08]like above all else, for me,
[20:12]is to provide moms with relief
[20:14]and to make them feel less shame.
[20:15]Like, more than anything.
[20:17]Like, I would love for the book
[20:19]to like be a cultural shifting book.
[20:21]Like, you know, I have big dreams for it.
[20:24]But like, on like a basic level, that is my goal.
[20:28]And I feel like the way that we feel less shame
[20:31]is when someone else shares something
[20:34]that we're ashamed about.
[20:36]And then we go, oh, I can also share that thing.
[20:39]Like, I feel like that is how shame does itself
[20:41]is when you're like, I'm not actually the worst
[20:44]because you do that too.
[20:45]And I think you're great.
[20:46]Yes. You know, and yes.
[20:49]And I was feeling that, you know,
[20:50]and the moms who are writing me
[20:52]lose those emails were feeling that.
[20:53]And so it had already started happening.
[20:56]Okay. And I also think that it's one of the ways
[20:58]to help rage is because if it's in this like tiny shame corner
[21:04]and we don't talk about it, then it just lives there.
[21:07]And we don't actually deal with the rage.
[21:09]We don't think about the rage.
[21:10]We don't talk about the rage.
[21:12]We don't work with the rage.
[21:13]Like, we can't actually access it in any way.
[21:17]And so breaking the shame down is both like a liberatory
[21:21]thing for me.
[21:23]And also it's a way to move to the next step.
[21:26]I think that is beautiful.
[21:28]I love hearing you describe that
[21:29]because it really is so life-giving.
[21:33]I'm a huge Mr. Rogers man.
[21:34]It's what I watched when I was little.
[21:36]And he says what's mentionable is manageable, right?
[21:39]And that feels so true to that
[21:41]where it's just like, hey, if we can talk about this,
[21:43]then that's the beginning of getting to the other side of it.
[21:47]And yeah, you said it also seeing a person
[21:51]outside of yourself.
[21:52]You would never talk to them that way about it.
[21:54]Exactly.
[21:55]And so how do we kind of fact check our own internal dialogue?
[21:59]And the shame is so big.
[22:00]Like, I have talked to multiple women
[22:03]who are grandmothers at this point
[22:06]and they talked to me about my book
[22:08]and then they tell me their rage story
[22:10]that they remember from when they were 30 years old.
[22:14]And then they say, I've never talked about that before.
[22:18]I've never told anyone that story before.
[22:20]They have been, but they remember every detail.
[22:23]They have been holding it for 50 years.
[22:26]You know what I mean?
[22:27]Yes.
[22:27]The same mom range is really huge.
[22:30]Yes.
[22:31]And what a gift to your point earlier,
[22:33]it is a very hopeful moment.
[22:35]Like the fact that you and I are talking like this
[22:37]and those women held on to those stories for that long.
[22:40]I mean, where was the opportunity
[22:42]to talk through some of that?
[22:44]So I think we're very lucky to be in a moment
[22:47]where people are starting to talk about it.
[22:50]So that makes sense.
[22:51]Plus, we all need more naps is what I'm hearing.
[22:54]Or maybe night nurses.
[22:56]I just, how about right?
[22:58]Oh, yes, that's a better idea.
[22:59]Let's go for more.
[23:01]Yeah.
[23:02]Okay, so for you now, do you have moments of rage?
[23:06]How do you deal with them?
[23:07]Or is that something that has been eased for you?
[23:12]I do still have moments of rage.
[23:14]I think that they often get sort of aborted
[23:19]before they get really bad.
[23:21]And part of that, I think, is that
[23:25]I'm more aware of it.
[23:27]My whole entire family, including my children,
[23:30]are more aware of it.
[23:33]My son and I, we have this like very special relationship
[23:36]and also we are just like,
[23:38]we're a little frictiony, me and him.
[23:41]Like it is always gonna be something with us in this,
[23:44]and like, and also like,
[23:46]I think I have like the most tenderest spot in my heart
[23:50]for this child.
[23:51]Like, we're like, there's something,
[23:52]he's my first kid, you know, I don't know what it is.
[23:55]And sometimes we'll be like getting into it
[23:57]and hope you like, we just need to stop.
[24:00]We just need to take a break.
[24:02]Interesting.
[24:03]And I'm like, you're right, you're right.
[24:04]We need to take a break.
[24:05]What a gift you're giving, Dan.
[24:07]I mean, I hope so.
[24:08]That's amazing.
[24:09]Look, yeah, but I feel like everyone in the house
[24:12]is just like more aware of it.
[24:14]And I don't know.
[24:15]I think we are all better at managing it in a way.
[24:21]Yeah, myself included.
[24:23]Absolutely.
[24:24]I mean, you're keeping your side of the street clean,
[24:26]but I think it's so healthy because I remember somebody
[24:30]telling me years ago, like, oh, I lost it with my kids.
[24:34]And I said, and it was a pretty, you know,
[24:38]middle of the road reaction.
[24:39]They were mad.
[24:40]They shouted, you know, I don't remember all the details,
[24:42]but I do remember saying to her, I said, you know what?
[24:46]I think that's okay.
[24:47]Like, our kids need to know that their actions have an impact
[24:52]for us.
[24:53]I mean, that we are people too.
[24:54]So this idea of the mother as the long suffering,
[24:58]eternally, you know, magnanimous.
[25:00]And just I can absorb all of your emotions.
[25:03]Like, that's not fair to anyone.
[25:05]It's not fair to them either because it sets them up
[25:08]for this future.
[25:09]So, right.
[25:10]Yeah, I think there's a lot of health there.
[25:12]I thank you.
[25:13]I agree.
[25:13]And it has always bugged me when I've talked to moms
[25:16]who won't like share if they dislike a certain activity
[25:19]or something with their children,
[25:20]because they don't want to teach their children not to like it.
[25:24]And I'm just like, you're on that kind of opinion.
[25:26]They're still going to like that.
[25:28]I just feel like everything has taught us not to be people.
[25:31]And that feels bad to me.
[25:33]I'm just like, we get to be people.
[25:34]We get to have likes and dislikes and needs and all the things
[25:38]emotions.
[25:40]Yes.
[25:41]Did you post the other day about the Barbie movie?
[25:43]Was that on yours about the, we stand still so our daughters
[25:46]can go ahead.
[25:47]I did.
[25:48]It was about an article that was in HuffPost.
[25:50]I didn't write it.
[25:51]Oh.
[25:52]So I reposted that, that article, which I loved.
[25:56]But that particular line in Barbie about moms stand still
[26:00]so that daughters can see how far they've come
[26:02]was like the only line in the movie.
[26:04]Like my heart stopped when she said that.
[26:06]And I was like, oh, no, we don't.
[26:10]I'm going to pass on that.
[26:13]Yeah.
[26:13]No, that was, I was looking at some of your social media
[26:18]and just seeing a lot of that.
[26:19]And it's so, or, you know, that messaging.
[26:23]And I loved that you posted that to kind of call that out
[26:26]because we do.
[26:27]We just forget like there can be this very beautiful sentiment.
[26:30]And of course, we sacrifice for our children
[26:32]because we sacrifice for people we love.
[26:34]Yeah.
[26:35]But we should love ourselves too.
[26:37]So that kind of balance.
[26:40]Well, I just think that's so valuable.
[26:42]I have some, I have two questions for you.
[26:44]Number one, so we talked about your hope for the book
[26:47]that this is going to be part of a societal conversation
[26:50]and shift.
[26:51]And I couldn't agree more that you are perfectly positioned.
[26:55]And so is this book for that.
[26:56]So I think that's wonderful.
[26:58]What are your other hopes for the books
[27:01]entrance into the world?
[27:04]I would really, I mean, in my like real fantasy of fantasies
[27:08]is that moms read the book.
[27:10]It feels impactful and important.
[27:12]And they see themselves in it.
[27:13]And that they give it to their partners to read.
[27:16]Yes.
[27:17]Like, even though I wrote it for moms,
[27:19]like moms are my audience in this book.
[27:21]But in my fantasy, fathers are reading this book
[27:25]so that they can understand the experience
[27:28]of the mothers that they love.
[27:30]That makes complete sense.
[27:32]If it's a mirror for women,
[27:34]that this book could be a window for their partners.
[27:37]Yes, because I think that mom
[27:38]I just very hard to explain.
[27:40]It's very hard to like to make it something
[27:43]that doesn't feel terrible between partners.
[27:45]Like, and I just, I would love for them to be able
[27:48]to be like, I can't explain this to you.
[27:49]I can't make you understand it.
[27:51]Here it is.
[27:52]Like, this is it.
[27:53]I need you to read this.
[27:54]Yes, I really love that.
[27:57]I will leave it on my husband's pillow tonight.
[28:00]I think he'll really appreciate that.
[28:02]We're a little sticky note with a heart.
[28:04]Love you, thanks.
[28:05]Yes, love you, Vee.
[28:08]That'll be perfect.
[28:09]Okay, my final question for you.
[28:11]Tell me what is, when you think about being a mom
[28:16]and the ways that that has changed you,
[28:18]what is your favorite way that you've been changed
[28:21]by being a mom?
[28:22]Oh, wow.
[28:23]My favorite.
[28:24]I mean, I think that I,
[28:26]I mean, I feel like there's more than one.
[28:27]It's very hard to whittle that down to one.
[28:29]Can I give you two?
[28:30]Yeah, I would love to.
[28:31]Yes.
[28:32]One of them, I think would just be how into my kids I am,
[28:38]like how into what they have to say is like,
[28:42]just like being obsessed with like two new people.
[28:45]Yes.
[28:46]Yes.
[28:47]You know, and like wanting to see their drawings and like,
[28:50]here, what happened at school and like,
[28:52]all the things, like it just like it feels fun to like,
[28:56]I don't know to have my heart be so involved in two people,
[29:02]new to gift.
[29:03]Yeah, it's really, it's fun, you know.
[29:05]Even though like so much of the labor part of mother,
[29:09]but I don't find all that fun,
[29:10]but like actually just having these two little humans
[29:13]who just like, I think are the great, you know,
[29:16]because I really that has been really fun for me.
[29:19]And then I think from a professional standpoint,
[29:21]I mean, what would I write about?
[29:23]Like they give me everything in terms of like the pain,
[29:28]the joy, like I feel like I have so much energy
[29:33]from motherhood to put into creative practice.
[29:38]That feels very exciting and I like it as a circle.
[29:42]Like I have all this stuff that I'm living
[29:44]and then I have, I use writing to sort of like process it.
[29:48]Yes.
[29:49]And then I come back better, hopefully, to them,
[29:51]because I have processed it through the writing.
[29:55]I love hearing that.
[29:56]That is just what a beautiful way to...
[30:00]put it. You're exactly right. Thank you for being here today. This was a joy. Yeah, thanks for
[30:04]having me. I'm so glad we got to talk about mom rage. I can't wait for it to be out in the world.
[30:10]And I wish that all its dreams and your dreams are just going to come true. I'm excited for it.
[30:17]I think it's going to be, I think it's a powerful book and a valuable book. So congratulations and
[30:24]all the best wishes to it. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for being here today.
[30:30]Yeah. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:35]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:40]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[30:45]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for the
[30:50]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[30:55]now trim music.