Chandler Baker, CUTTING TEETH
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Chandler Baker is the author of Cutting Teeth.
[1:06]She was on this podcast before where I interviewed her and this time she is guest hosted
[1:11]by Julie Chavez, author of Everyone But Myself, a forthcoming Zippy Books title and Julie's
[1:16]also the host of Ask a Librarian, the podcast.
[1:19]Chandler Baker grew up in Sarasota, went to college at the University of Pennsylvania and went
[1:23]to law school at the University of Texas Austin.
[1:26]She worked as a lawyer at a DC firm, worked in Dallas for a major sports franchise and worked
[1:30]as a corporate attorney.
[1:32]Now she can usually be found listening to audiobooks at two times the normal speed of
[1:35]her spending it, bookstores and obsessing it with true crime.
[1:38]She lives in Austin, Texas with her husband and toddlers.
[1:41]Chandler, thanks so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to talk
[1:45]about Cutting Teeth, your latest novel.
[1:48]Thank you for having me.
[1:49]It's so fun.
[1:50]I'm so happy to talk to you and I feel like you, I'll talk to Zippy about this, but
[1:54]I feel like as a three-time guest, like a 3P, you need like a little trophy or I mean
[2:00]something, right?
[2:01]Like a jacket, like we'll just go full on us now.
[2:04]Yes.
[2:05]A varsity jacket and then maybe you could put like the book titles on the sleeve or something?
[2:09]Yeah.
[2:10]Yeah, I appreciate it.
[2:11]That's a great time for that.
[2:12]I'm going to draft that email.
[2:13]I think that'll really make me a value ad.
[2:16]Great.
[2:17]Yeah.
[2:18]Great.
[2:19]Make sure and I'll mention it was your idea just to see how that goes.
[2:21]See, seeing, you know.
[2:22]Yeah.
[2:23]Well, I'm so happy you're here today.
[2:25]I just finished the book, which I mentioned Cutting Teeth.
[2:29]It's your third novel, although your third adult novel, I should say, or novel for adults.
[2:35]Yeah.
[2:36]But I was just telling you before we started, I loved this book and also it's twisted.
[2:43]Thank you.
[2:44]Is that, I hope so.
[2:46]Yes, I have to say I would read it and then I put some, I put it down a couple times and
[2:51]I was like, whoa, that just got weird and then moved on with my day.
[2:56]But I loved it.
[2:57]It's so clever.
[2:58]Do you want to give just a quick, since you have the subject matter expert, a quick premise
[3:02]of what this book is about?
[3:04]Yeah.
[3:05]So cutting Teeth, it follows three moms, Darby, Rhea, and Mary Beth, and they're each
[3:12]sort of on their personal quest to subsume aspects of their identity that they've lost
[3:18]during motherhood, for when it's career, for when it's sex life, for when it's for business.
[3:25]And their plans get upended when their preschoolers were all in the same class at Little
[3:30]Academy developed this sort of unsettling medical condition that causes them to crave blood.
[3:37]And they all have different philosophies of handling it, but they're handling it.
[3:41]And then the children's preschool teacher is found murdered sort of feet away from the classroom
[3:48]and the only witnesses and eventually suspects become the 10 adorable four-year-olds adorable
[3:57]four-year-olds in an adorable and dangerous, I think is a good way to describe it.
[4:00]Yes, a dirty danger.
[4:01]A sunny four-year-old.
[4:02]Right.
[4:03]Yes.
[4:04]Even ones that don't want to drink blood.
[4:06]Right.
[4:07]Right.
[4:08]Okay.
[4:09]I am so glad you shared that.
[4:10]I really, what I found most interesting about this book will, first of all, listening
[4:14]to talk about the three things they were trying to reclaim, your writing is so excellent
[4:18]because as soon as you said that, I thought, oh, that's exactly what it was.
[4:22]But you don't notice it, like the way they do you write.
[4:27]It's very natural and it feels, it's just highly readable.
[4:31]So I loved reading it.
[4:33]But also the thing I love about it is that you have the plot, but beneath it, there's
[4:37]really a lot of commentary that I found on what it is to be a mother and the idea that,
[4:43]you know, your children are pretty much sucking you dry from the beginning.
[4:47]It just changes in form, right?
[4:49]Mine are now sucking you dry financially.
[4:51]And sleep.
[4:52]Oh, that's exactly right.
[4:53]That's exactly right.
[4:54]Oh, gosh.
[4:55]I know.
[4:56]I'm like living in the illusion of my, you know, my son is three and a half and he's
[4:59]our youngest and I'm like living in the illusion that when he goes to kindergarten, we'll
[5:04]get this big raise because he'll be in public school.
[5:08]But I know that's the lie that I'm telling myself to go to sleep at night.
[5:11]I think you'll be okay though, because I feel like it's not until they start doing
[5:15]things without you.
[5:16]That's where it really is like mom, I need money for the movies.
[5:19]Like a real money.
[5:20]I'm going out with my friends.
[5:21]Yes.
[5:22]Correct.
[5:23]Yeah.
[5:24]The donations you can, you can tamp down.
[5:24]But yeah.
[5:25]Yes.
[5:26]I'm still like really enjoying the moment where you can be a real hero, getting things
[5:30]for them that are like very low cost.
[5:32]Like right now, everything is like prime the drink and I'm like, oh, I don't know.
[5:37]It's like two dollars.
[5:38]And then I know, you know, your kids age they're asking for like close that cost as
[5:42]much as mine.
[5:43]Yeah.
[5:44]It's it's slightly different.
[5:46]Although my 14 year old is still drinking the prime drink.
[5:49]So really, you know, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
[5:52]Yes.
[5:53]I have to say this book has a really satisfying ending also.
[5:58]So all these things that I really liked about it, tell me about, well, what's interesting
[6:02]is I was listening back to your most recent interview with Zibi and you were just talking
[6:06]about the beginnings.
[6:07]Still had a different title in mind and I was talking about this book then.
[6:11]Okay.
[6:12]It was interesting because and then in the first one, you were talking about the husbands
[6:16]just having ideas about it.
[6:18]So it was neat to, and I kept thinking about like it's such a time capsule.
[6:22]So you know, and when you're bored next time, you can go back and listen to yourself.
[6:25]Yeah.
[6:26]There's nothing crazy about that.
[6:27]Sure.
[6:28]I'll do that.
[6:29]I'll do that never.
[6:30]But when so how has this process been different?
[6:33]This is your third book, a lot of what you said, and it sounds like is true for you
[6:38]that you don't have a ton of regularity or discipline around your process, even though
[6:43]you treat it like a job, it sounds like, but it sounds like the way that the books come
[6:47]to is sort of organic and depends on what you're writing about.
[6:50]Is that still true for you?
[6:52]Like how was, how was writing this one different?
[6:55]I think so.
[6:56]You know, it's so interesting because like cutting teeth feels sort of like a step away
[7:04]from some of the things I've, I've done in the past, it feels like a little bit more speculative,
[7:08]a little bit more out there.
[7:10]I mean, vampire toddlers is a strange idea.
[7:15]And yet I can pretty clearly like trace the lineage of the books.
[7:18]It's like whisper network was about women in the workplace.
[7:22]The husband was about women in domestic partnerships at home and cutting teeth is about
[7:26]women as mothers.
[7:28]So I can, I can really find, find that common thread and, you know, I'd be so curious
[7:35]what I said in that last interview because it's funny to mean looking back now that there's
[7:42]always sort of clues in my previous books for what I'm going to write about next.
[7:46]Like there is a line in the husbands, I think, about how Mora feels like she's like would
[7:50]rather be cannibalized by her family rather than, you know, try to like shift her schedule
[7:55]around anymore to accommodate people.
[7:58]And like it actually refers like physically being eaten and I'm like, oh, like that is cutting
[8:03]teeth.
[8:04]Like that's what the, that's the whole book, but like I didn't realize that when I wrote
[8:10]it, like the process for writing the husbands was I like, I remember that second draft
[8:16]starting from a blank page.
[8:18]Like I wrote the book once and I wrote it, then I wrote the next draft from a blank page.
[8:22]I still, I think I made some hand waving gestures at the idea of outlining for cutting
[8:28]teeth.
[8:29]Okay.
[8:30]Then we're, you know, someone more successful maybe, but I don't, I think inefficiency,
[8:35]I mean, I'm curious what you think as a writer to like inefficiency is the process for
[8:40]me, at least like there's no way around it.
[8:43]I wrote the first, I think 100 pages of this book so many times.
[8:49]I just gosh, moving that murder up like earlier and earlier just about broke me.
[8:55]Yeah.
[8:56]So it didn't get, it didn't get much more more efficient and I'm definitely still sort
[9:00]of didn't blindly by feel just kind of what feels right as I go.
[9:04]Well, I wonder if that's part of the magic of it though too, because I think something
[9:09]that I couldn't have known before I started writing and stepping into this publishing
[9:14]process is how many times you're going to redo it.
[9:16]So there is sort of like a starting out inefficiency feels true to the rest of the process
[9:23]a little bit.
[9:24]So there's a little more looseness around it, which for someone who's type A like me,
[9:28]that's actually really good to embrace at the beginning as opposed to here you go.
[9:32]I'm done.
[9:33]And then no one, someone says no, actually you're not, you're going to do that.
[9:36]Yeah.
[9:37]I mean, I wish I knew a way of like revising that wasn't just completely dismantling.
[9:43]My critique partner always says about me that I'm incredibly willing to like murder everything
[9:47]just to change one thing, but I just, I don't know another way to do it, to rebuild
[9:53]it rather than then delete it all and go again.
[9:58]I don't know.
[9:59]I think.
[10:00]That makes sense to me though,
[10:01]because there's something about,
[10:02]I agree with you, the blank page can be scary,
[10:05]but also once you've written a draft,
[10:07]then it's all still in your head to some extent.
[10:10]So I feel like for me,
[10:12]there is an element of faith in it where it's like,
[10:14]okay, I'm gonna believe that whatever's meant
[10:16]to come out again is going to come out again.
[10:18]Yeah.
[10:19]And then the rest I can let fall away,
[10:21]but yeah, I don't know.
[10:22]When people are telling like, this is what I do,
[10:25]and I write this many words a day, and I blah, blah, blah,
[10:27]I'm just, it just makes me sweaty,
[10:29]but also extremely envious.
[10:31]Yeah, it sounds so adult and sane.
[10:35]And I'm just like, wow, good for you, adoption.
[10:38]Yeah.
[10:40]Please tell me how to live and also how to do everything.
[10:43]Yes, I think you hit on it though too.
[10:46]You talk about it in the book about,
[10:48]you have some astute observations,
[10:51]some really sharp observations in this book
[10:53]that are so true to kind of the vibe of the book.
[10:56]Like when you talked about how mothers
[10:59]are subject to the 45 minute rule,
[11:01]like that means always 45 minutes
[11:03]until you have to do something else.
[11:05]And I read that and I thought,
[11:08]I don't think I've ever read anything truer than that.
[11:10]Like even as I was reading it, I was like,
[11:12]yeah, this is when I look at the clock,
[11:13]sure, gotta be some more important in 45 minutes.
[11:16]So to that point, like it sounds like you have,
[11:19]even as a full-time writer,
[11:20]you still have to carve those times in
[11:23]and sort of be subject to all these interruptions.
[11:26]Is that something that you struggle with?
[11:31]I mean, is that something you feel is true for you
[11:33]as a parent, first of all?
[11:34]I mean, I feel like it is, you included it.
[11:36]But no, it's not.
[11:39]You have just tons of free time, don't you?
[11:40]Yeah, well, you know, I think I saw I was a lawyer
[11:45]before this and there was a large chunk of time
[11:48]where I was both a lawyer and a writer.
[11:50]And then now, you know, I get to a grateful time,
[11:52]but there, I think moms with creative jobs,
[11:57]they're very easy to nibble into.
[11:59]Like, I work from home, it's very easy for me to be the person
[12:03]that's here for the AC guy, that's here for, you know,
[12:06]what I like that has to go run up to school
[12:09]to do whatever, like it has, it's more nebulous,
[12:15]which can be trickier actually to like find the time
[12:19]and to keep it carved out.
[12:21]I agree. Yeah, I'm always looking for more time hacks.
[12:24]So when you get that all figured out
[12:26]and you get your boundaries down again,
[12:28]just give me a call in that way, I know.
[12:30]Okay, yes.
[12:31]Another line I have to tell you, I loved that was so pointed
[12:34]like that.
[12:35]You talked about one of the children's rooms,
[12:37]looking like a French countryside picnic,
[12:39]moments after a cargo plane carrying a shipment of toys
[12:42]crashed into it.
[12:45]This book is so funny, that's the thing I definitely
[12:48]want to say, this book is twisted for sure.
[12:50]But it is really funny and just it's bitingly funny.
[12:57]I'm here for all the vampire, like there'll be a shame.
[13:00]Just lean in.
[13:01]But there've been a lot.
[13:02]Has it been? Oh my gosh.
[13:03]So many, which I like, there's always ones
[13:05]that surprise me and I, yeah, I'm delighted by them.
[13:10]Yeah. Do you like puns in general?
[13:12]Are you a pun person?
[13:13]Let's say that's like a kind of a pun in themselves.
[13:15]I feel like, I don't know why it is.
[13:20]Well done. Yeah.
[13:21]I'm not really good at coming up with puns myself,
[13:24]I wouldn't say, but I appreciate it wordplay.
[13:26]Okay.
[13:27]I'm more of a fan, like a stamp on the stands.
[13:31]Understood.
[13:32]Okay. You're not in the game, I got it.
[13:34]Yeah. I want to talk about just for you, what is it?
[13:39]I mean, this is a career, right?
[13:42]For you, like you're obviously full-time writer,
[13:44]but I look at your catalog of books
[13:47]and the pace at which you are turning them out.
[13:50]What do you love about writing?
[13:54]Oh my gosh, I so much, I, you know, I related to the book,
[13:58]like I think a lot about messaging, right?
[14:01]Because I feel like as a writer,
[14:05]something that I feel like a lot of us talk about
[14:08]is like, oh my God, writing is so hard,
[14:10]writing is miserable, like I love having written,
[14:12]but I hate writing and I am absolutely guilty
[14:16]of thinking those things, saying them, I'm sure,
[14:19]but I'm worried that the message we send out
[14:21]into the world is that writing is terrible and awful.
[14:24]And if you're thinking about doing it,
[14:25]you shouldn't try it when in fact it feels like my sort
[14:28]of greatest calling and it is sort of hard
[14:32]to develop the neural pathways that allow you
[14:34]to sit in that discomfort, but I feel very rich enjoyment
[14:37]from that.
[14:38]And I feel very similarly, similarly about parenting too,
[14:41]like we complain so much about our children.
[14:43]And I think there is a very valuable catharsis
[14:47]in sharing those complaints about parenting,
[14:50]but I also worry that we're giving weird messaging
[14:54]into the world that it's not also like the greatest joy
[14:57]and like true calling in my life.
[15:00]So that was an aside, but I know.
[15:03]But I appreciate that.
[15:04]And you're so right, just listening to you say that.
[15:06]I'm thinking of all the side by side memes right now
[15:08]about, you know, here's what I do with my day without kids,
[15:11]which is wonderful.
[15:12]I mean, we want this to be an honored path as well.
[15:15]However, I agree with you that sometimes it feels like
[15:18]maybe we are we're selling the experience short
[15:22]or we're robbing of it's robbing it of the beauty
[15:25]that it has that makes all the bananas stuff worth it.
[15:29]So yeah, it's thank you.
[15:32]I know because I've seen critiques of cutting teeth
[15:36]and it's like, well, why have kids at all?
[15:37]Like if you hate it so much.
[15:39]Like, wow, wow.
[15:41]Easy tippy.
[15:42]Yeah, you know, like I get it.
[15:47]So we do need people in the world to have children.
[15:51]Some people, not all people, but some people.
[15:54]Some, not all, but some people.
[15:56]And it can be both things, right?
[15:58]It can be perfect for parenting.
[15:59]And yeah, in terms of what I'm like about writing,
[16:03]I just always wanted to have a job
[16:05]that required me to use my brain.
[16:06]Like I love the problem-solving aspect of it.
[16:10]It's really hard to sit in the not knowing
[16:13]but when something clicks into place
[16:14]and it does start to flow, it's just so great.
[16:18]I mean, there's truly no other feeling like it.
[16:21]Do you feel that way?
[16:22]I do.
[16:23]I do actually listening to you talk about it.
[16:24]I think I I'm a both and kind of person too where yeah,
[16:28]I of course my children drive me insane,
[16:31]but there is nothing more that I find to be more of a privilege
[16:36]than being their mom.
[16:38]And yeah, and I also think too that I was telling a friend
[16:41]this recently, we were talking about just transformation
[16:44]and I was saying that I don't think that I would be able
[16:48]to be the person that I'm meant to be
[16:51]without experiencing parenthood.
[16:53]I think it is a key, a key part of my life
[16:57]to shave away so much of the things I needed to ditch anyway.
[17:02]Yeah, so yeah.
[17:03]And I think that can be very true of writing too
[17:07]because it's, I think anything that's humbling
[17:09]and it sounds like for you, it's a humbling experience
[17:13]to sit down and say, I'm going to write something
[17:16]that someone is going to want to read.
[17:18]Like, yeah, it just is very vulnerable.
[17:20]So I love hearing you express it like that
[17:23]because I agree completely.
[17:25]Mm-hmm, good.
[17:26]Yeah, great.
[17:28]We're already wearing matching shirts.
[17:30]So glad you're going to be getting it.
[17:31]I'm glad you like for having parents and friends.
[17:35]Great, absolutely.
[17:37]Okay, but we do need to talk about one important thing
[17:39]where you and I differ.
[17:40]And that is, well, again, here's,
[17:42]let's start with a similarity.
[17:43]I listened to part of the audio book.
[17:45]And it's true that you, I was listening to you in Emma.
[17:49]You have an interview at the end of the audio book.
[17:51]And first I couldn't figure out who was who,
[17:54]but that's what it started.
[17:55]So you had heard January and requested her specifically
[17:59]to narrate this audio book.
[18:01]Yes, exactly.
[18:02]So she was amazing.
[18:04]And it translated so well to audio.
[18:07]I was so impressed and I just enjoyed it.
[18:11]It was really good because I was kind of going back and forth
[18:13]so I could be sure to get it done.
[18:15]But at the end, you were also talking about how you love
[18:17]audio books that you like Aussie narrators,
[18:21]which is like my top thing.
[18:23]Everything Jane Harper I've listened to.
[18:26]Yes, her narrative is amazing.
[18:27]Yeah, we have that in common.
[18:29]Also immersive thrillers.
[18:30]I'm here for that.
[18:31]Okay.
[18:32]Then you said that you listened to audio books
[18:35]on two or three times speed out loud in your house
[18:40]on a speaker.
[18:40]And I thought, well, if we were roommates,
[18:43]I could write a thriller called Julie killed a roommate
[18:46]because if that just like your actual human monsters,
[18:50]just because that about me pretty much.
[18:53]I actually told my husband, I was like, listen to this.
[18:56]This author, I'm going to talk to you today.
[18:57]I listened to him like this out loud.
[18:58]And he was just like, nope.
[19:01]I'm still married too.
[19:02]That's amazing.
[19:03]So Kuru, way to go.
[19:04]I mean, I mean, it doesn't mean it is too.
[19:07]Yeah, I know that one really, he really, really
[19:09]hates it.
[19:10]Like he finds it so stressful.
[19:12]I mean, I think in general, I'm kind of like the stressful
[19:15]person probably because I'm very like, I'm kind of a workaholic.
[19:19]I feel like I'm always like doing the things and then it's
[19:23]like that just feels sort of a piece.
[19:25]Like it's very on brand that we're going to do that.
[19:29]And everyone loves it.
[19:31]So it's amazing.
[19:32]And I just was laughing at it.
[19:33]I saw it on your bio on your website as well.
[19:35]Also, people who are reading cutting teeth
[19:37]do not sleep on Chandler's website because it's great.
[19:41]You have lots of resources.
[19:42]You have a couple videos about how you came up with the story.
[19:45]And it's just very well done.
[19:47]So it was worth the visit.
[19:49]Oh, great.
[19:50]Great.
[19:50]I feel like I have nothing to do with it.
[19:52]So I'm long to hear it.
[19:55]What do you think is your?
[19:57]So as a parent, I mean, cutting teeth is a lot about.
[20:00]Parenting the things we do for our children. What we're willing to do for them
[20:06]What do you think your greatest strength is as a parent and what's your greatest weakness?
[20:11]Oh man, I feel like a big part thing that I thought about in the book is that I don't think anyone's as good a parent as they
[20:19]Proport to me and no one's as bad as a parent as they feel that they are like bone between closed doors
[20:26]because I
[20:27]Often feel like not a very good parent
[20:33]So that's more your default. I think that's my default
[20:37]So it's easier for me to say the things that that frustrate me about myself as a parent
[20:43]So I
[20:45]And again, I think this is hard like when when you are available at home when your
[20:51]Female creative like your time is constantly being cut into when you're at work
[20:55]But at the same time because of that. I feel like my
[21:00]Brain is sometimes not as present as I would like when parenting. I feel like both cut into each other
[21:06]So I'm definitely like obsessed with checking my email like I wish I had a better sort of
[21:12]Technology boundaries in front of my children with the way I am about work. That's a big one. I think that
[21:21]I am generally pretty
[21:24]Patient I would say like I'm not I'm not quick to lose my my cool. That's a win
[21:31]I
[21:32]Really enjoy it like talking to my kids. I feel like they enjoy talking to me. I enjoy talking to
[21:38]That's a gift. What are yours? You probably have better thought out once you know as you were saying it
[21:42]I do this all the time. I ask questions
[21:44]And I never think of the answers ahead of time
[21:46]Love when someone just turns them back. It's great. I always am hoping that please
[21:51]I'd say probably my greatest strength is in the conversation like I'm
[21:57]I'm willing to
[21:59]Get in there and yeah, my willingness to be interrupted which makes me horrible in other ways like everything has a shadow side
[22:06]So even you like yeah, your kids are seeing you work, but your kids are seeing you work. So yeah, there's it's just such a tricky one
[22:13]But I would say availability, but my biggest weakness
[22:19]gosh
[22:20]I'd have to think because it is easy to think of multiples
[22:26]You know what it's probably thinking I know best trying to circumvent their process for them like I like to get things done quickly
[22:34]So in that conversation I like resolution and so I'm like well, let me just tell you what to do because
[22:39]You're gonna get there eventually. So let me just help you out here, but weirdly teenage boys don't they're not really into that
[22:45]Don't love that. Okay. No. No. All right. God
[22:49]I mean my son still wants to marry me. So I'm sorry
[22:52]Gosh, I love that face
[22:55]So fun
[22:56]Uh, yeah, I think my mom has like a signed card from one of us that says I will marry my mom kind of think she was like I'm gonna make them sign this
[23:04]Oh, it's so sweet. I know it is. I mean
[23:06]I'm hard to tell him sweet time. Yeah, I think it's best to wait
[23:10]Probably definitely get it on video and then you can use it later. Yes
[23:14]What do you think is your
[23:18]What's the thing in writing whatever project you're working on? What is one thing you want to get better at?
[23:23]I mean other than outlining and having like a good plan
[23:27]Although maybe you could just let that go. We'll loop back around to that because it seems to be working. You seem to be finishing the books
[23:34]Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just I am not naturally like a structure gal. Okay. I
[23:41]Would love to
[23:44]Like think more deeply about
[23:46]Structure going into a project spend more time marinating on it
[23:51]I loved like get writing. I get very twitchy about sort of the
[23:57]Part where you're supposed to be marinating and thinking. I want to get to it
[24:01]So I would love for a part of my process like even if it's not outlining to just really think
[24:07]A little bit more deeply about how to create that board momentum
[24:11]Specifically thinking about like through character and like once. I don't know all like the sort of save the cat-esque things that I sort of often
[24:19]Turn up my nose at I would like to stop having that attitude
[24:24]Well, yeah, I could see it's well, it's tricky because there's always such a layer
[24:28]But maybe we could apply your parenting logic to
[24:32]The writing game as well, right? Maybe none of us is as poor as we think or
[24:38]Yeah, yeah, I like that. We're in the middle. Yes
[24:42]What's one conversation that you're enjoying having around this book? Oh
[24:47]Gosh, I've had a lot of conversations about so my son
[24:50]I swear I'd already started the book. I'd already been writing the book that he became the class fighter during the course of
[24:57]Of writing this book your dedication is my favorite thing. I think I've
[25:03]Thank you
[25:05]I know I'm trying to explain to him like you have a book dedicated to it three and a half totally
[25:09]can look at all you've done in the world and
[25:11]So one has been really fun like I feel like a lot of parents have talked to me about their experience with their kids as a class
[25:17]Spider I really love the people that are talking to me about how they were the class
[25:22]Spider and then seeing them be like
[25:24]Functional people in the world is very comforting
[25:28]but you know we had a it was a really tough sort of semester when he
[25:34]held that crown and
[25:36]He was just going after everyone, you know like a real-life baby shark. It was it was awful and people
[25:43]There was a small
[25:46]Movement by a mom to try to get him kicked out of school and you know
[25:50]We were doing we were doing everything like she he was being shadowed
[25:54]We pulled him out of school for like
[25:57]Took him out two days a week, you know
[25:59]We sent him with chute toys. We read all the books like we did everything
[26:02]But there's that privacy thing right so they can't tell you who your child bit
[26:07]And they won't tell you know who that your child was but
[26:13]These parents a couple parents witnessed him biting with their eyeballs and
[26:18]So with their eyeballs and so
[26:24]They knew who we were but we didn't know who they were
[26:28]And that felt very uncomfortable because I would have loved to have had a conversation with them and talked to them
[26:34]But I think a theme sort of in the book is how clearly
[26:38]Can you ever see your child and like do you see them the most clearly of anyone or do you see them?
[26:45]At least they're really not very hard because they're sort of an extension of you and we often see our children's as an extension
[26:50]They're self and a direct result of our parenting and you see the best of them and you see the worst of them
[26:56]So it's a little bit of a both and I think on both of those those fronts as well and
[27:02]It was very hard as parents to see him sort of like reduced in people's eyes to a binder, you know when
[27:10]That's not who we saw and
[27:14]and
[27:14]He wasn't aggressive
[27:16]It's just like an impulse thing
[27:18]But it just kind of made me like seeing a parent try to get him kicked out of school
[27:23]I think we're all looking for ways to feel like good parents
[27:27]And I think that that's kind of like a quick dopamine hit
[27:33]Quick and dwarven hit to feel like to jump in and protect your child from some perceived danger
[27:39]And we're all looking for those crystal clear moments where we know we're like we're doing it like what's being good mothers
[27:47]And I get it. I get it like I understand
[27:50]but also like want to celebrate that the you know more nuanced
[27:57]You know hidden work of parenting a difficult child or a child in a difficult moment is also good parenting
[28:03]Even when you don't see the results as perfect behavior
[28:07]Mm-hmm. Gosh, that's such wisdom. Yes, it is nice to see people who are biders
[28:13]Turn out to be normal humans. So that is a win
[28:17]But I couldn't agree more. There is that surge of righteous indignation that we all can I love right to send a nation
[28:23]It is my favorite kind of intonation. Oh, please couldn't agree
[28:28]An argument with my husband. Oh
[28:30]So good. Like I get it. I get it. Yes, but you're exactly right because I think
[28:37]the
[28:38]Yes, many people have a smoother road. It's very similar to the early days when some babies sleep and some babies don't and
[28:46]It's really not about how successful you are. So I think that sort of detachment from your child
[28:51]But then also
[28:53]Yeah, having a lot more space for their kids. They're growing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to bite
[28:59]No, you did and you know it it disappeared like magic. It was a fate that amazing
[29:05]It's a consuming it was a consuming moment for you. It sounds like in so many ways and then one day you look up
[29:11]And it's like oh, so that's done. We're done with that. He doesn't do that. We decided not to, you know, and
[29:19]It's great much like runfield syndrome. It's so true way to bring it back around
[29:26]Well, I have really enjoyed talking to you about this book
[29:30]I hope that people really
[29:32]Enjoy the book. If you're an audiobook person be sure to listen to it because it will the performance was really well done
[29:38]But in general, I just think you have a really good way
[29:43]I'm going to actually go back and read your backlist because I love the way that you
[29:48]Have your commentary kind of woven in there and none of it's heavy-handed none of it feels like you're trying too hard
[29:53]It really is just you're writing about it from this perspective in which you have some experience
[30:00]So I think it's well done.
[30:02]No, thank you so much.
[30:04]Oh my pleasure.
[30:05]Thanks for being here today.
[30:06]Thanks for asking my two personal questions
[30:09]about your or exceedingly personal questions.
[30:11]I should say about what kind of parent you are.
[30:14]And I hope that people though have gotten to know
[30:16]because I think you're a great writer
[30:19]and I am sure that you are a better mother
[30:22]than you think you are.
[30:24]Oh, thank you.
[30:25]I hope so.
[30:26]I hope so.
[30:27]I think we all are.
[30:28]I think we all have to be.
[30:29]I mean, right?
[30:30]It's really the only way we'll survive.
[30:31]We're trying.
[30:32]We're trying.
[30:34]Thanks so much for today, Chandler.
[30:36]Thank you.
[30:38]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[30:40]Don't have time to read books.
[30:41]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at ziby Owens
[30:45]and at Moms Don't have time to read books.
[30:47]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibyowens.com
[30:49]and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:51]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:53]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[30:56]for the sound editing.
[30:57]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:59]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.