Gary Gulman, MISFIT: Growing Up Awkward in the '80s

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[1:03]Gary Goldman is the author of Misfit Growing Up Awkward in the 1980s.

[1:07]Over 25 years in comedy, Gary Goldman has established himself as an imminent performer and

[1:11]peerless writer.

[1:13]A product of Boston, Goldman has been a scholarship college football player and accountant

[1:17]in a high school teacher.

[1:18]He has made countless television appearances as both a comedian and actor.

[1:22]Goldman has made four masterful TV specials, including his most recent universally acclaimed

[1:26]stand-up special for HBO, The Great Depression, a tour-to-force look at mental illness,

[1:31]which is equal parts hilarious and inspiring in 2019 he appeared in the International

[1:35]Blockbuster Joker.

[1:37]He can most recently be seen co-starring with Amy Schumer in the hit Hulu Comedy Series

[1:42]Life and Beth.

[1:44]Gary's first book is titled Misfit Growing Up Awkward in the 1980s, a memoir based on

[1:49]his life from kindergarten through 12th grade.

[1:51]Amy Schumer, by the way, called the book Laugh Out Loud Funny and Hard Felt and MacArthur

[1:56]Fellowship recipient Adrienne Nicole Leblanc, founded Exquisite Love Affirming and Generous

[2:01]Today, Goldman is one of the most popular touring comics selling out theaters around

[2:04]the country, including the prestigious Carnegie Hall in New York City, areas of coming

[2:08]tour from Misfit, will feature material based on his book, but not a repeat of the book.

[2:12]Gary lives in Harlem with his wife.

[2:14]Welcome, Gary.

[2:15]Thank you so much for coming.

[2:16]And moms don't have time to read books to discuss Misfit Growing Up Awkward in the 1980s.

[2:22]It is a pleasure.

[2:23]Thank you.

[2:24]I love talking books in general and my book in particular.

[2:28]Well, in today's year, lucky day, because that's all you have to do.

[2:32]I love this title so much.

[2:34]I grew up in the 1980s, I'm 47, but I was just like, how many cultural references

[2:39]am I going to get?

[2:40]How much do I feel like I'm living here and I feel like such nostalgia and warm feelings

[2:45]about the 80s.

[2:46]So it put me off on a good mood starting the book and then of course then there was the

[2:51]book.

[2:52]It really happens.

[2:53]I'm glad.

[2:54]I want you to explain to listeners what the book is about, but you use this very interesting

[2:58]device where you're going back and forward in time and even choosing different funds and

[3:02]showing us the depth of sort of despair, contrasted with moments of time from your upbringing.

[3:09]Tell listeners, why did you do it this way?

[3:12]Why did you decide to write the book?

[3:14]And yeah, just your life in general.

[3:16]Go ahead.

[3:17]Initially, I wanted to write a book.

[3:20]I've read several times and I forget who's given credit for saying this, but write

[3:25]the book you wanted, you would want to read.

[3:28]And I always thought it would have been great to have read a book when I was growing up

[3:34]and later about people who didn't fit in and wherever they were, they were either marginalized

[3:42]or bullied or left out.

[3:45]So I was very athletic, but I didn't really feel comfortable around the kids who were

[3:52]jocks and I was a good student, but I never really felt accepted by the really smart kids

[3:59]in class.

[4:00]And then I repeated the first grade.

[4:02]So when I went to the first grade again, I was much bigger and more mature than those

[4:07]kids.

[4:08]So I didn't fit in there.

[4:10]Hebrew school, which I covered some in the in the book.

[4:14]I felt I wasn't as religious or as as well off as a lot of the kids in Hebrew school.

[4:20]So it was just time after time I was I was left out or marginalized in some cases bullied.

[4:26]And so I wanted to give people something people who were misfits growing up and also look

[4:32]back on that and say, oh, I understand and I get it and also give some people some hope

[4:37]that eventually you will find your group and and you will find friends and and I found

[4:43]a spouse and and things worked out well for me.

[4:47]The book is set up.

[4:49]It was originally called K through 12.

[4:52]So it's a memoir of kindergarten through 12 grade.

[4:56]Now the reason I was thinking about all these things so extensively was that when I was

[5:03]46 years old, I had what would be called a major depressive episode in which I was hospitalized

[5:10]and received electro convulsive therapy treatments and I was I was sort of in a very difficult

[5:18]position in that I didn't know whether I was going to be able to work as a comedian anymore.

[5:24]And I was my least was up so I didn't have the energy to look for a new a new apartment.

[5:29]So I moved back to the home.

[5:31]I grew up in in the 70s and 80s with my mom and I have an intersect with a lot of events

[5:39]and people that I had grown up with and so this is why I had such an extensive time remembering

[5:47]and and pining for a simpler time, but also remembering certain aspects of that simpler

[5:54]time which that that made me who I am for better and and for worse.

[5:58]So that that was sort of the the impetus for collecting all these stories and so in between

[6:05]each chapter from my childhood and and early adolescence, I reflect on this time when I was

[6:13]46 and 47 living at my mom's house and and so that that's usually the jumping off point

[6:20]for each for each chapter.

[6:21]I love how you say that a lot of you know, addicts or people are covering hit bottom

[6:28]and hitting bottom for you could not go any lower than being back it with your mom

[6:33]and your childhood home.

[6:35]I had I had been in the psych ward, which a lot of people would say, well, that is your

[6:40]bottom.

[6:41]No, my bottom was moved back into the twin bed I had grown up in my mom's house and you're

[6:47]65 to you.

[6:48]I'm surprised you even like fit in your bed right aren't you six, that what you said.

[6:52]I had to to sleep in an angle and sometimes my my girlfriend at the time now wife, she would

[6:57]visit and we would we would have to use the Pythagorean theorem to arrange ourselves

[7:01]on that on that bed.

[7:03]But I usually got the hypotenuse so I I felt pretty good.

[7:07]That's great geometry made more that's not chapter 10, I believe I hate to like laugh

[7:16]and make the same light because so much of the book was really a period of of significant

[7:21]despair and hopelessness and you know you talk about you know suicidal ideation and

[7:27]a lot of really heavy themes in here.

[7:29]There was one passage.

[7:30]Can I read this?

[7:31]Do you mind if I read like a little bit?

[7:32]No, I love to hear my voice.

[7:34]Okay.

[7:35]Here I get that you can just when this comes out, you can just like put it on repeat

[7:39]or whatever.

[7:40]But anyway, this is just one from August 2017.

[7:43]I wake up and check my iPhone seven.

[7:45]It's turning off and on and won't hold to charge.

[7:48]I don't know why this happens is happens to my phone right now.

[7:50]But anyway, I'm distraught phone trouble, computer crashes, tax returns and insurance claims

[7:54]are all features of a gauntlet of quotidian stressors that in my fragile state can sabotage

[7:59]the momentum of being awake and send me back for more of that sweet sweet oblivion.

[8:04]I owe thousands of dollars in taxes that are months overdue.

[8:07]I have tens of thousands of dollars in denied insurance claims from my psych ward stay

[8:11]and now the phone is dead on the to spend more money than I can't afford to get a new one.

[8:15]I have to make a trip to the north shore mall when I'm sick.

[8:18]It's painful to interact with people at stores.

[8:20]I feel dumb and dependent and meek.

[8:22]I'm also afraid of running into people I know.

[8:25]They'll ask me how I'm doing or what I've been up to and I'll either have to lie or tell

[8:28]them better.

[8:29]I feel safer on shoelaces again and you can you should see all the kitchen knives they

[8:33]leave out.

[8:34]I'm sleeping in a twin bed at my mommy's house but things are looking up.

[8:37]I park on the same side where my mom used to park where she worked at Murray's blah, blah,

[8:41]blah, blah.

[8:42]I'm anxious and self-conscious about my de-sheveled appearance shorts with holes in them,

[8:45]wrinkled, ragged, bob Dylan t-shirt, but I'm also thinking back wisfully about how

[8:49]at one time when I was only eight, I was a star here, the prince of what was then called

[8:53]the north shore shopping center.

[8:55]Oh my gosh.

[8:57]How did I do?

[8:58]Okay.

[8:59]Thank you.

[9:00]It's interesting because I have two feelings.

[9:03]One is, oh my gosh, how did I ever survive that horrific time period?

[9:07]I was so anxious and just so depressed and then I think, wow, not only did I get out of

[9:15]that I was able to discipline myself for over two and a half years to write it all down

[9:21]and it doesn't.

[9:24]Some things you see or hear that you created, you cringe and that didn't sound so bad.

[9:30]So I'm very grateful that I was able to pull that off but yeah, I was going to places

[9:37]that I had gone to as a child but as an adult and it was nostalgic and I would get

[9:46]wistful, but also I would yearn for that innocent time when, yes, there's a whole

[9:54]many paragraphs about how popular I was with the people who worked at the mall.

[9:59]My mom would...

[10:00]would let me loose at the mall while she worked at this hallmarks store, greeting cards and

[10:05]stationery store at the mall. And I just, it was weird because I fit in there better than I did

[10:10]at school. I was only eight years old, but the teenagers and some of the some of the empty nest

[10:16]moms who worked with my mom, they just adored me. So it was this wonderful place that I was

[10:24]accepted and almost like I was a mascot. Well, I think, you know, it really speaks to the

[10:31]collective childhood, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And we just all imagine

[10:36]ourselves to be something great or something interesting or whatever. And no one ever thinks,

[10:41]like, well, I'm going to come back and I'm going to be more upset than I am right now

[10:45]as a child. Right? And so you have to sort of like come face to face with that, not that you

[10:49]aren't successful. You're obviously quite successful in your ways, but I mean, from an emotional

[10:54]standpoint, even or no, that's a great point. And and I think that part of part of the good

[11:01]thing of moving back home was that there were people who were two of my friends had bought their

[11:07]mom's house in our neighborhood. So I was able to visit with them. And that was very helpful.

[11:13]Sometimes we would just sit and watch, watch basketball games. But other times we would,

[11:18]we would go for walks or one friend had a landscaping company. And I remember helping him out

[11:24]with, with clearing leaves and brushing things like that. So it was, it was very therapeutic to

[11:29]be back there, but also it was a reminder of, of, yes, longing for to escape and then finding

[11:36]yourself back back where it all started. Well, not to dwell on, on the sad parts, but I was really

[11:42]drawn to the story of you overcoming all of that. So when we enter the story, you know, you're

[11:48]basically a mess and are having trouble even getting to your therapist, which was another heart

[11:53]breaking scene, right? You just, you can't even like get the, the minimum help that you need.

[11:59]But what happened from a, from a depressive episode standpoint before that had you almost had,

[12:05]had you had smaller depressive episodes? Did this come out of nowhere? How did this come into your life?

[12:12]Oh, no, that's a, that's a great question that, that nobody has really asked me, but since I was

[12:17]seven, I would have these episodes and they were, they were frequently associated with stressors

[12:22]and school or in, in sports. And I would have two or three months where I was unproductive and,

[12:30]and I would say I was, I was dragging myself through life. So things were much more difficult

[12:36]than they had to be. And then at about 45 and a half, I started this episode that I, I kept thinking

[12:45]while I usually come out of these after, after three months and it, and it kept going and the

[12:50]medicines that I had used were not helpful. And then about a year and a half or almost two years

[12:57]into it, my, my psychiatrist said, why don't we, why don't we admit you to the hospital and we'll,

[13:02]we'll take care of you. And, and, and that sort of started the, my recovery and, and it took a

[13:09]lot longer than that to actually be myself. What I would consider my, my best self, which is,

[13:15]I can, I can be quite charming and happy and, and active and productive. And so from about

[13:23]the year and a half to two and a half years. So I guess it was, I moved back into my moms in June

[13:29]and about October of that year. So about two and a half years into this episode, which is,

[13:35]I mean eight times longer than they usually lasted. I, I felt myself and I'll tell you since

[13:42]then I've been so healthy and also so grateful that I've gone out of my way to try and share this

[13:48]story and make people who are in the, in the thick of it, see some, some hope and also know that

[13:54]they're not alone. That there are other people who go through this and, and I guess I never thought

[13:59]I, I was a person that people would say, Oh, how can he be depressed? He has a lot going form,

[14:04]but it turns out that a lot of people feel, feel some comfort in knowing that this was very helpful

[14:09]to me, knowing that achievement or notoriety was not going to make me feel better about myself,

[14:16]that it was chemical and biological. And I couldn't achieve my way out of my feelings. I,

[14:21]I needed to get my, my biology straight. And there was, there was no shame in, in, not feeling

[14:28]great just because you had done some, some good things. So that, that was very helpful to me. And

[14:34]I'm, I'm very happy. I'm able to pass that information along. It's great. It will be so helpful.

[14:39]I mean, it's just like any other disease, right? I mean, you don't know exactly your mind,

[14:43]you know, you're in this whole bad loop where you, you know, beat yourself up for feeling bad.

[14:48]Exactly. Most of the diseases don't come with that aspect where you, where you blame yourself

[14:53]and, and beat yourself up for, for feeling that way. Yeah. Or question if it's a disease or if

[14:58]you're just like having a hard time or, you know, it's all in my head. And, and yeah, I brought this

[15:03]on myself. Yeah. Yeah. I actually am on the board of an organization called the Child Mind Institute,

[15:08]and they're working on finding like a biomarker in kids that you can tell early on if you're,

[15:13]if you're prone to getting all of these things and to be on the lookout and then working on

[15:18]treatments for that. And so I find that really exciting. Have they found a biomarker for it?

[15:23]They're working on it. And they have like this whole open source platform with all the,

[15:28]they've opened up the data. So everybody from all these different universities and organizations

[15:32]are working together to, to find what this is and how to, you know, help kids from a young

[15:37]agent set more people up for something. Same thing. Because I think just a diagnosis or an

[15:42]understanding from people back then would have been so helpful in, in not blaming myself and also

[15:49]treating it before it became so, so problematic. Yes. True. Okay. The comedy side. So, so while you're

[15:58]going through these periods, you're also building a standup career. And even while even post this

[16:04]coming out with the great depression, all of the stuff, turning all of your experience into

[16:09]something that people relate to and being able to perform. So how did you kind of navigate that,

[16:15]like in the midst of everything and even before, like this doesn't seem like a natural job from

[16:21]how you just grab your child and necessarily. Right. But I do think I made it clear in the book,

[16:29]throughout my childhood, I did find so much comfort in solace and laughing with my family and

[16:36]friends and also making them laugh. And I think I'm nearly certain that there is a boost of

[16:43]serotonin and dopamine when you, when you participate in laughter and when you make other people

[16:48]laugh, it just feels really great. So I was sort of in some cases self-medicating. And then

[16:55]in my recovery, I found it very helpful to go to the comedy shows to be around people, other people

[17:05]who knew me and also had similar interests to me. And then I would also, I would get on stage

[17:12]frequently, even when I was, was just in the, in the early stages of my recovery, I would get on

[17:17]stage and I, I had to address the fact that I looked awful and that, and then I frequently had

[17:25]just thrown on the, the cleanest clothes I could find and I would, I would say, well, I've been,

[17:31]I've been very depressed and I would make jokes about having been in the hospital. I, I got

[17:36]recognized by a patient when I was in the hospital and I told this story about how, how I got

[17:41]recognized. I would say, have you ever been recognized in the psych ward and from TV and people

[17:48]would laugh? And I would tell the story and it just, it was helpful in so many levels. It was,

[17:53]it was getting some feedback on my, on my story. That was very positive. People would say, oh,

[17:59]that I have a daughter. I have a, I have a friend or I've suffered from depression. That was

[18:04]incredibly helpful. And what they don't tell you is that sharing your story is, is not something

[18:10]that will make you feel worse. It will, it will make you feel better and it will make others feel

[18:14]better. So I, I think, I think it also helps to reduce the stigma and makes people feel less alone.

[18:20]It's just, it's, it's just a, a winner on all fronts. And, and the other thing was that it was,

[18:26]it was getting me to do the hardest thing at that time, which was to get out of the house and,

[18:31]and be amongst the, the living and, and, and get some of that. There's also serotonin and just

[18:37]being around people in relating so that that was immensely helpful. And, and so I, I built sort of

[18:46]a, a routine of, of getting up and walking my dogs and then making breakfast for them and then

[18:55]feeding myself and, and then eventually leaving the house later on in the, in the day and exercising

[19:01]and, and, and then the day was always finished by, by going to this comedy club in Harvard Square called

[19:07]the comedy studio and I would perform there. And it was just, it was, it was really all part of my,

[19:14]my recovery routine. So funny. I've never really heard of performing comedy as like an

[19:21]anti-depressant, essentially. Right. I mean, people, people look to self medicate in a lot of

[19:26]not very productive ways. Right with drugs and drinking and, you know, all these other things. But,

[19:32]I mean, this is a pretty sanctioned healthy way to do it.

[19:37]It was, and I, I don't think it has to be stand up comedy that gets you out of the house,

[19:43]but that was, that was especially rewarding because it was all, it also happened to be my,

[19:47]my vocation. But I, I think that one of the things was that early on, I was very tied to how

[19:56]the audience reacted and that would affect my mood. And that, that was,

[20:00]And that was part of the reason why I was having such a difficult time is that I didn't feel I was good enough as a as a comedian and I was able to figure out a way in which I would say you just have to get on stage, whether it goes well or it doesn't go well.

[20:15]The act of getting on stage is the is the success that's the that's the end point and you don't have to judge yourself and and that was that was so freeing.

[20:24]And of course once you're able to do that then you're not self conscious and you can do your best work but getting to that point was it was difficult for me so I'm very grateful that that I the stars aligned and the universe complied in my escape routine.

[20:43]Oh my gosh, you wrote about your dad a lot in the book, especially as a young kid and your relationship with him and your brothers and all that and I saw in the acknowledgements when you said, you know, did it dedicating it to him and heaven and and all that.

[20:58]How do you feel about having examined your relationship a little bit more with your dad I'm assuming than before you wrote the book and how you how you feel about that now and you know just any general thoughts about it.

[21:10]Oh that's a great question because that was one thing that was so helpful with the with the book and I mean I'm very enthusiastic about journaling and writing memoir so I always say even if you just stick it in a drawer keeping track of your biography is really helpful and it was very helpful in bringing some of these ideas and events to my therapist.

[21:36]Every every Tuesday at one 30 and we would examine these things and I was able to get perspective but one thing that I didn't anticipate with with my dad I just really wanted to tell the stories in our relationship was that he was a figure that was was negative initially, especially at the at the beginning of of one of the chapters.

[22:01]But he redeemed himself so beautifully and I couldn't have planned it better if I was writing a novel himself so beautifully and came through for me again and again and so I think it was it was really helpful to see that and also examine the just the nature of humanity which is we're a mixed bag we do some wonderful things we do some really messed up things and so.

[22:30]I think it's sort of that that Walt Whitman I contain multitudes and and not just I but everybody I intersect with had had some great points and some negative points and and we we all we were all doing our our best and my mom was it was another really interesting quirky character who who served me.

[22:53]overall just as a as a great mom and yet there were there were points where I would say oh man she really she really messed up there but as a as a whole both my.

[23:04]My parents and my and my brothers were were positive and and and I'm really grateful for their their influence on on my life.

[23:13]Well, this is great because you know if you ever switch therapists all you have to do is just hand them the book and you can be like read this first and like let me know in your all caught up and then I'll come in.

[23:22]So funny that is really that is really something I think about from time to time because I I think what if I had to get a new therapist it would take weeks to bring them up to speed and that that's so funny I wonder if they would.

[23:36]I would probably have to I would probably have to reimburse them for the time they spent reading the backstory but it would bring me up.

[23:44]Sorry, I remember I'm not in therapy right now, although it should be but whatever, but I was writing all these personal essays and I was like why am I coming in here and just saying like let me just redo this you know like now this is 10 minutes.

[23:55]15 minutes, this is a waste, like can I just send these to you ahead of time. Yeah, I come in later.

[24:01]Really an idea.

[24:03]Anyway, so from writing perspective what advice would you have for aspiring authors and people who want to go into their own experience to write memoir.

[24:13]Very helpful to read a lot and I think Stephen King in a book called on writing which I would recommend he says a good writer is a is a good reader or maybe a great writer is a great reader.

[24:25]So you have to read a lot and in particular, I did write read a lot of writing books and particularly a book called bird by bird by animal and then a book by Mary car about more writing and those were really helpful and then there was this other book that a woman had compiled of

[24:47]Kurt Vonnegut speeches or anytime he had talked about writing and it's called pity the reader and those those three were really really helpful and and so the only thing is that I found that at some point you're reading to avoid writing.

[25:05]It's just another procrastination technique so I had to say all right, I'll I'll read for an hour, but I have to I have to then then sit down at that point and and write and the most helpful.

[25:19]I mean that I was able to get to was this practice where I would say okay I will just write for 15 minutes and if I don't feel like writing anymore I will stop and invariably I would keep going because I was I was giving myself a push through the hardest part which is actually starting so I would say do that and then if you can write for at least two hours in the morning more if you can.

[25:47]If you must, but you build up endurance and you can't start by saying alright I'm going to write eight hours today I don't I don't know many people who can maintain that type of type of strenuous writing activity but you can build up to longer than than just an hour, but you can start with an hour you can start with 15 minutes and then.

[26:05]And then build up and I would say also that sometimes it's you don't have the energy to create but you do have the energy to revise or or edit.

[26:16]Maybe something that you do later in the day but find whatever routine works for you and and also know that your subconscious will do a lot of work while you're sleeping while you're not writing so that if you.

[26:29]Find a stumbling block that you're you're just not able to get over I found it really helpful to sleep on it and then I would I would go back to it the next day and.

[26:39]Almost without exception I would find a fix or at least make it better and get get towards the end goal so I would say that's my my writing advice and and I think I think next time they say you have to figure out how to write every book on its own.

[26:56]But I think next time I will be able to write it a little bit quicker because I won't fall into some of the pitfalls because I I noticed that it was really hard to skip one day.

[27:06]It was really easy to skip the second third fourth and fifth day so try try not to skip a day, even if you're just opening up your computer and reading what you read yesterday that that I feel gets you into that that habit of being a writer.

[27:21]That is excellent advice kind of similar to the gym right it's like yeah, yeah, exactly like the gym hardest one to skip is that first day and then it gets progressively easier.

[27:33]All these tricks we have to play on ourselves.

[27:37]It does I know you have to do it amazing well Gary thank you so much for your time thank you for your pleasure, thank you I I admire your podcast and I it was a delight talking to you so thank you so much for including me.

[27:50]My pleasure all right and reading my book thank you.

[27:53]That was great I really enjoyed it I really enjoyed it.

[27:56]Oh that's great to hear all right have a great day thanks again.

[27:59]Bye bye.

[28:00]Bye.

[28:01]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to follow me on Instagram at ZB Owens

[28:09]and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week.

[28:18]Thank you so much to Steve and Ryan in fact texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.