Andrew Ridker, HOPE

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[1:03]Andrew Ridgert is the author of Hope.

[1:05]A novel.

[1:06]Andrew Ridgert's debut novel The Ultraists was in New York Times editor's choice, a

[1:10]Paris Review staff pick, an Amazon editor's pick, and the people book of the week.

[1:15]It was published in 18 countries.

[1:16]His writing has also appeared in The New York Times, Esquire, Lamond, Book Forum, and

[1:21]elsewhere.

[1:22]A graduate of the Iowa Writers Workshop, Andrew lives in Brooklyn, New York.

[1:26]Welcome, Andrew.

[1:27]Thank you so much for coming on Momstone.

[1:28]I have time to read books to discuss your novel.

[1:31]Hope.

[1:32]Thank you for having me.

[1:33]I was just saying, I'm like obsessed with your book and your voice.

[1:37]And I think it's so funny, and I posted this on Instagram, but I swear to God, I thought

[1:42]this girl was me on the cover, and I got to do a deep dive.

[1:46]But ultimately, I think she has longer legs than me.

[1:48]But anyway, this could have been me as the point.

[1:51]I had this letter just like this, and this was like my Bob Mitzvah years, looks just like

[1:55]this.

[1:56]So I immediately identified with, with, well, it's so crazy about that is like everybody

[2:02]seems to see themselves in this picture.

[2:04]Like I, I was born the year this picture was taken, and I still look at it sometimes, and

[2:08]I'm like, is that my birth Mitzvah?

[2:10]Is that, is that, and I actually had a friend over the other day.

[2:14]Not Jewish.

[2:15]He's like the waspiest guy, no, he's from Princeton, New Jersey, and he was like, that

[2:19]looks like my cotillion.

[2:20]I think there's something about that image that for Jews, it's bar-bought Mitzvah, it

[2:26]gets you immediately.

[2:27]But there's something, everyone can sort of see that universal adolescent longing

[2:31]and the humor and pathos of that time and that image, I think.

[2:35]Totally.

[2:36]I mean, no, I don't think I'm the blonde girl.

[2:37]It looks amazing.

[2:38]Yeah, exactly.

[2:39]But like the, you know, lurking brunette in the background, but yeah, it's a great image.

[2:44]It's so great.

[2:45]Anyway, but that's besides the point of how great the book is.

[2:48]So why don't you talk about what the book is about?

[2:51]Tell listeners what the book is about.

[2:53]Sure.

[2:54]So it comes out of this feeling that basically in every neighborhood, especially in the suburbs,

[3:00]you get the sense that there's this like one perfect family that kind of, at least

[3:03]on the surface seems to have everything figured out.

[3:06]And in Brookline, Massachusetts in 2013, that family is the Greenspan family or the central

[3:13]characters in this book.

[3:15]But when the father, the family Scott is caught committing fraud at work, he just like sets

[3:20]off this chain reaction of scandals.

[3:22]And you start to see the cracks that have sort of been underneath this family all along.

[3:25]The book basically follows this, this family of four over the course of a really eventful

[3:31]and turbulent year as they basically fall apart and try to put themselves back together again,

[3:37]whether that means opening their marriage or going to fight in the Syrian Civil War or,

[3:43]you know, whatever other normal family stuff, the kind of perfect family does.

[3:48]So yeah, it's about a not so perfect family falling apart and putting themselves back.

[3:52]Yeah.

[3:53]That's a good, very good description.

[3:55]I have a great Aunt Marjorie who was from Rhode Island and, you know, again, with the,

[4:00]you know, identification and the passive aggressiveness of her and this could be a woman in my own

[4:07]family.

[4:08]And I'm sure people are saying this to you also about the relatability of this family and maybe

[4:12]not the fraud and maybe not some of the, you know, the internet casualties.

[4:17]But I'm like, oh my gosh, when you went to Berlin, oh my God, but, you know, just the way that

[4:23]people interact with their parents.

[4:25]And I love the fact that Scott has this room, this like mental, you know, self-protective

[4:31]emotional room that he can go into and close himself off and just like not here at the chaos

[4:36]until like one day it doesn't even work.

[4:39]Tell me about that.

[4:40]And like, is that a trick that you use and, you know, tell me, could I be adopting the mental

[4:46]room?

[4:47]Yeah.

[4:48]I've got to find a way to say this that no, no living family members will take offense

[4:53]too.

[4:54]But no, I mean, I think we all have those people in our family or friends or just our

[4:58]lives in general where we love them, we're close to them.

[5:01]We couldn't imagine life without them, but they drive us crazy and they, you know, I think

[5:07]I'm come from extremely close knit family.

[5:09]But the flip side of being close knit is that it can be sort of limiting and constraining.

[5:13]There are times when you think, well, what if I want to define myself outside of how

[5:17]my family sees me, but you have these people who are like, no, no, no, no, this is who

[5:21]you are.

[5:22]We know you better than you, you know.

[5:23]And so for some people in your family or elsewhere in your life, you might, yeah, do as

[5:28]the father in the book does and basically sort of, yeah, retreat into yourself and you're

[5:33]sort of thinking, all right, this person's talking and I'm kind of passively listening.

[5:37]But in order to like protect my own emotional state and mental health, I kind of have

[5:42]to tune some of this out.

[5:44]And then one day, yeah, one day a piece of information sort of penetrates that mental room.

[5:50]Namely that his, this character's mother has been, has been conned out of her life savings

[5:56]with this teenage boyfriend in Berlin.

[5:58]And suddenly he's this room that he's imagined for himself complete with, you know, interior

[6:02]decorate everything is crashing down.

[6:05]And suddenly he's like, I have to face this person, my mother, that I've been tuning

[6:09]out for the last hour and kind of also my whole life.

[6:12]Yeah.

[6:13]Oh my gosh.

[6:14]Well, the humor in your book, it's like so understated, but so funny.

[6:20]And I like, I just think it's hilarious.

[6:23]And can I just read a couple of these little things?

[6:25]I don't know if anybody's going to find this funny the way I'm reading it.

[6:28]Maybe it's the bigger context of the whole scene, but there's a Scott, they're all telling

[6:32]a story here.

[6:33]So edit dinner, Bernie, or partial party.

[6:35]The caterer appeared at the tray of water crackers topped with avocado and crab meat.

[6:39]Oh, Scott said, watching with longing is the caterer past the ethicist shirt.

[6:42]The next person.

[6:43]So Don and I were on a flight to Tokyo last month, and who else is on board with these

[6:46]acidic Jews?

[6:47]Black cats, curly side runs the whole deal.

[6:49]What they want in Tokyo is a mystery to me.

[6:51]Do they have Jews in Tokyo?

[6:53]No idea.

[6:54]Anyway, like it's just so funny and then it keeps going on about canceling the flight

[7:00]and like why they would do that.

[7:02]This whole, my son, the doctor is drowning how she said, oh, this was so funny with that.

[7:07]When the friend takes him into another room and like drops his pants and is like to the doctor,

[7:12]like do I have herpes or whatever.

[7:13]So you find out he doesn't have herpes and he says, you know, I won't when he asks

[7:17]and how he gets it.

[7:18]He says, you know, I won't trouble you with assorted details.

[7:20]Let's just say that not all of our marriages are quite a stand as yours.

[7:23]A skateboard was mounted on the wall behind Marty, a cartoon alien painted on his underside.

[7:27]herpes, Marty said, buckling his belt.

[7:29]My God, hey, by the way, how's your mom?

[7:31]And then he says, I won't ask how you made that mental leave.

[7:34]Well, like, it is so the timing.

[7:37]It's almost like not Seinfeld, but there's something just about the quips and the timing.

[7:42]Oh, and then I was totally interested.

[7:44]In fact, I already quoted this yesterday to somebody who was like, should I settle and get

[7:48]married?

[7:49]And I'm like, no, no, don't do that.

[7:51]How there's this study.

[7:52]And I don't know if this is based in reality of what makes successful people who

[7:57]stay married for 60 years or more.

[7:59]And it's about low expectations.

[8:01]Tell me about that.

[8:03]Yeah.

[8:04]Well, that specifically came from the low expectations I think I made up and is just kind

[8:10]of, yeah, like a punchline that I suppose I hope isn't true, but like might might be.

[8:16]But my friend from college, Leah got a job or rather was doing her on PhD at Yeshiva University

[8:23]in clinical psychology.

[8:25]And it was this really funny situation.

[8:26]She's half Jewish, but she's at, you know, Yeshiva with a lot of Orthodox Jews.

[8:29]And she was like, my job right now is to sit with elderly, mostly Jewish couples and ask

[8:35]them about their marriages.

[8:36]And that's like all I do all day and she gave me all these great stories.

[8:39]And it's one of those funny things about writing where she probably told me this six

[8:44]years ago.

[8:45]And then you're just sitting down one day and you're like, I need a job for this character.

[8:47]And what would sort of fit the relationship themes in the book?

[8:50]And there's Leah's, you know, incredible job talking to these old couples almost like in

[8:54]that Harry Met Sally kind of way.

[8:56]And I love, I'm so glad you pointed out the humor only because A, sometimes when I talk

[9:01]about the book, I get a little lost in the like the politics and these like heady themes

[9:06]and I'm like, but it's a comedy, it's a comedy.

[9:07]And I jokes are so important to me, humor is so important to me.

[9:11]I, much to my embarrassment now did actually high school and college improv, which is

[9:17]where I met my wife and something about that Jewish tradition of humor.

[9:22]And just, I just think there's so much truth in jokes.

[9:24]And it's a way of saying something that would probably be a little dark if it wasn't

[9:29]funny, but it kind of gets it a truth in a way that you let your guard down, you laugh

[9:33]and suddenly the effect of what the joke is saying hits you.

[9:36]So I'd say in addition also, yeah, all the books I read growing up, I mean, stand up comedy,

[9:42]the movies of Mel Brooks and people like, I mean, that's as important to me as any literary

[9:47]influence to be sure.

[9:48]Right.

[9:49]There's almost like an arrested development like meets Kirby or enthusiasm.

[9:53]There's just like something, I don't know, I'm just, I think I'm just quoting anything

[9:57]I can think of.

[9:58]I don't know.

[10:00]You know that. I mean, those are the big ones. Yeah, absolutely.

[10:02]Those are the, I don't know. I love how you do that. So I know this is your second novel.

[10:07]And I'm wondering, I haven't read your first novel, but now I have to go back. Tell me if does

[10:12]that, is that a similar sort of tone and voice? And I know it had so much claim. Tell me about

[10:17]that novel and also, you know, just how you got into writing to begin with.

[10:22]Well, yeah, maybe I'll just go chronologically. I guess I was really into writing as a kid.

[10:25]I was a big reader. And in a kind of almost embarrassing way, I feel like I wanted to be a

[10:29]novelist. Basically, as long as I can remember, you know, like parents dug up some old,

[10:34]you know, one of those things you do in school, like, what do I want to be when I grow up? And I

[10:38]had said writer at some like, you know, I'm in like fourth grade or something, but I loved poetry.

[10:43]I said the same thing in fourth grade, by the way. So don't be embarrassed. I feel like there's a

[10:48]long hit like a lot of people on this spot who come on the podcast are like, well, actually,

[10:52]that's what I wanted to do forever. But like, how did I get there? So anyway, don't

[10:56]but it's like, I'm like, it would be so much more romantic if I had some incentive, you know,

[11:00]just some crazy path to getting here. But I was like, I love books. I want to write books. And I

[11:04]don't really think I'm capable of other skill sets. I can't do math. So I better figure this out.

[11:10]But I was really into poetry first, which I think is how a lot of people get into writing,

[11:13]you know, before your old enough to like construct a narrative, you write poems. And I went to

[11:18]Wash U in St. Louis major in English. But I had this incredible experience there with this,

[11:23]this poet named Mary Jo Bang where she would offer this special class that I had to petition for.

[11:30]We're basically, you just met one hour a week, one on one, and you handed in a new poem. And that

[11:35]was, that was the class. And she took your poem and she took out her red pen and she scribbled

[11:39]out a bunch of stuff and she handed it back to you. And always, she had found this incredible poem

[11:46]underneath my poem, like she hadn't added anything. But just in crossing out the words that weren't

[11:52]working, she would have found this poem. And I realized two things in that class, like one that

[11:58]like so much of writing is cutting through all the fog. It to like, there's something you really

[12:05]want to say is kind of buried under. And also that I probably wasn't cut out for poetry. And so

[12:11]fiction writing. And yeah, I wrote my, I went to work in book publishing after graduating

[12:16]college for no reason other than I was like, I have to be in your books. And I can't do

[12:21]do anything else. Sorry about my book there. What did you do in book publishing? Like which

[12:25]department? I was, I was an editorial assistant. I was, you know, a classic story of wanting

[12:31]desperately to be a writer and spending all day, like publishing other people's books and

[12:35]feeling all that kind of, you know, torment and angst and like you're sneaking hours in the

[12:40]morning, getting their early to write before my boss came in. And I wrote the book there. I mean,

[12:45]I wrote the book largely at work in those little hours when there's nothing going on,

[12:49]basically to prove to myself as much as anyone that I could, I could do this in addition to filing

[12:54]the paperwork and all the other stuff I was doing. And then I went to grad school at Iowa where I

[12:58]met Sanjana Sethi and who you interviewed. Yes, I saw that in your blurbs. Yeah, we, uh, we

[13:04]room together or rather I should say I slept in her unheated basement for two years. Then there's

[13:09]enough to let me crash there. But yeah, it's been a kind of straight shot of just an obsession,

[13:15]dedication. I just, I love, if I could read in right all day and I didn't have to do anything else,

[13:19]probably would. I've basically made that my life. Yeah, you really exactly. I mean, I, this,

[13:25]this dream can be yours. Well, I probably is yours because you keep, you're coming out with these

[13:33]fabulous books and all of that. So tell me more about your first book. And then just I would just,

[13:38]because now I'm, you've featured my interest in your role over if you will. And by the way,

[13:43]are you, are you from Boston? Is that where the context for Hope comes? Yes.

[13:47]Yeah, so I'm from from Brookline, Massachusetts, same suburb where the, where the book is set.

[13:51]Very much a product of that town in the same way the characters are as like this kind of liberal

[13:57]utopia that's also built on these weird contradictions about money and, and guilt and politics. But

[14:03]the first book, the first book, the ultra is, it's much like this one in that it's a family of

[14:08]four grappling with similar sort of moral questions. But it's actually set largely in St. Louis,

[14:13]which is where I went to, to college. And it's much, it's, it's the premise is basically the mother

[14:19]of the family passes away. And her husband in her sort of dying months, she realizes has been cheating

[14:25]on her. So she passes her inheritance to her children bypassing him completely. But then she kind

[14:31]of leaves him in the lurch. And the book is basically about his attempt to win back his kids love

[14:38]and inheritance. So he can pay off the mortgage on this home that they, that they, he can no longer

[14:43]afford. So it's this kind of similar themes of family and money and humor, but a very different

[14:49]setting and a very much more about like this concept of goodness. And like, what does it alter

[14:54]as a mean are reacting out of selfish motivation? How, where do family and money come into play?

[15:00]So yeah, family's been a big theme for me. And that the one I'm, not one working on now is really

[15:04]different in that it's a big sweeping historical epic of a book, but it's still about a family.

[15:09]And it's still about a lot of the same issues. So I kind of, I'm discovering my own obsessions,

[15:15]I guess, as I go. Yeah. Okay. More information about the next book, please.

[15:20]We're Jewish immigrant in 1911 shows up in Kansas City, starts a department store,

[15:25]raises the, the son of a, a sex worker friend who has no father becomes this retail dynasty

[15:34]in the Midwest, but it's sort of this like succession story of this like three generations

[15:38]rising and falling through the 20th century of the history of Jews in retail, the history of

[15:44]American politics and just like all the stuff that happens when you have blood family and adopted

[15:51]family and chosen family and mixed family and people showing up on ancestry.com. You didn't know

[15:57]about it and all that kind of stuff. That sounds awesome. I had some grandfathers in retail.

[16:03]So yeah, of course, I mean, everybody does not everybody, but you know what I mean?

[16:08]Like digging myself in a hole here. Tell me a little more about what it's like, like with this new

[16:13]book you're writing in with hope and everything. When you're writing, I'm a suit, you're not,

[16:16]you're no longer having to hide this at, you know, a day job I'm assuming. Tell me what your process is

[16:21]like and how much did you know going into it versus how much was in it and like were there any

[16:27]huge plot twists that you didn't see coming and like what was the whole experience like?

[16:32]Yeah. Well, I had been writing a different novel in grad school that just sometimes you just know

[16:38]like it's just not working and it had been two years and I was having full blown panic attacks

[16:43]and then as soon as I had the thought, what if this isn't it? Suddenly, I just like my shoulders fell

[16:49]and I was like, okay, so now I have to basically grapple with, I'm free of this project, but what

[16:54]what do I do now? And in that project, there had been sort of the secondary set of characters,

[16:59]the Greenspan's and I was like, well, maybe, maybe I sort of resurrect them and make them the

[17:04]center of the book and it sort of grew from there. So in a sense, it was this very much like

[17:09]Phoenix rising from the ashes kind of kind of situation, but it was also the pandemic. It was like

[17:15]2020, I'd gone back to my childhood home in Brookline where I hadn't been in since I was 18.

[17:20]I was with my sister who I hadn't also lived under a roof with since I was 18 and it was like this

[17:27]weird feeling of thinking, okay, I can't write about what's happening now because it's still

[17:30]happening every day. It's like, what is this pandemic? What's happening? But where were we like

[17:36]10 years ago? I can't even imagine what that's like anymore. Like life is so different. So many

[17:41]things have changed. I'm back at home and it grew up. I really kind of had to approach it like

[17:46]historical fiction like do research into like what was the Obama era? What was my childhood? Because

[17:52]all I'm thinking now is like Trump, COVID, lockdown, quarantine, you know, and I kind of it was a

[17:59]way to write myself out of the pandemic and also try to see like, okay, we were all very hopeful

[18:07]at that time. And now we're here in this kind of hopeless time. So how did we get here? What were the

[18:12]cracks in my what were the blind spots and cracks in my ideology and my beliefs about America,

[18:18]about family that might have led us here? Why did basically, why didn't we see this coming? How,

[18:23]you know, where did this all come from? So it was really this process of, yeah, writing into

[18:28]very recent history, but treating it almost like I'm writing about the middle ages or it's like

[18:33]we'll fall or something. Only it's my childhood from 10 years ago, you know. But yeah, and my

[18:38]process is really very busy business like it's like up, you know, 7 a.m. get to the desk around

[18:44]8 30, write net it for long as long as possible and then feel guilty all day that I don't,

[18:49]that I'm not doing anything else. That's basically, and then get up and do it again the next morning.

[18:55]Well, the way you write about guilt also, you know, this is a hallmark of humor also.

[19:02]It's, I mean, the intersection of guilt and a lot, essentially. That's awesome. Wait, so you

[19:07]have a sister is and are your parents married? Like give me your hold up. Let me, let me pry into

[19:12]your life here. Sure. Yeah, my as in the book and my father is a cardiologist, my mom,

[19:19]it actually just retired a week ago from being a seventh grade French teacher and I have a sister

[19:24]who actually fortunately lives down the street. She was over here last night very close with her.

[19:29]she works. She started writing for TV just before actually the TV writer's strike, but she's

[19:34]super creative as well. And we like crack each other up and like a lot of our humor comes from just

[19:39]being kids. We used to make comic books together and put on little plays and, you know, that kind of

[19:44]thing. But yeah, very tight knit kind of creativey family. And now we're just in our 20s and 30s

[19:52]trying to untangle ourselves from some of that stuff that was so wonderful at the time and then we're

[19:56]like, how do I stop being my parents child because I am 31?

[20:00]You know, so, but we're all very close and they're still living in Brookline and like I said, my sister's down the street. She's very close friends with my wife. So we have a good little, we had a good little COVID pod for sure.

[20:12]Well, I mean, I'm 46 and I'm still trying to complicate parental relationships. I don't think it like ever ends. And I first first bubble here. Yeah. Yeah.

[20:23]Well more material for more books. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's a lifelong investigation.

[20:30]So what advice do you have for aspiring authors?

[20:34]I remember when I was

[20:36]I'm aspiring author and I would go sometimes to readings or just anywhere I could be near a real like published author because there was this, you know, aura around them.

[20:45]And I remember like going to one at Brookline Booksmith where I'm going to be next week, which is this like beautiful circle moment, but I went to her up to her.

[20:54]And I didn't know her work or anything about it. But I was just like, how do I do this? How do I get where you are? And she was like, this is going to be maybe sound disappointing, but like there's no, there's no cheat code. There's no corner cutting. You just have to read and write.

[21:12]And I was deeply disappointed.

[21:14]Like I already know that, but like then what do you do, but really like when you're young, I mean, just reading everything you can possibly read and then finding out what your voice is by like it's like throwing all your favorite authors in a blender and trying to be like where what

[21:31]of this is me and what of this do I like leave aside. But I also think there's this sort of delusional perseverance that you need that like is kind of insane and not recommended in other fields like I feel like we're trying to be a lawyer and you failed the bar like 35 times someone your family might be like look maybe maybe it's not for you if it's 35 times.

[21:56]But you need to fail like 350 times with rejections and so on with writing. So you almost also have to just be like I like this enough to persevere through the doubt through the rejection.

[22:08]Because they're really I really do think like if you read enough right enough and keep going like there there will be that pot of gold that might not look like a pot of gold or like be with a thing you expected, but you can get there.

[22:20]You just have to have an extremely high tolerance for pain and and a little bit of a delusional faith in yourself that like against all available evidence. Maybe you maybe you can do it, you know, I love that so much delusional perseverance.

[22:36]It's not noble. I'm not like I'm still no no no. No, I know another author I was talking to recently was sort of like you know it's being an author is such a mix of like insecurity and then like displaced complete like confidence like my book should be a bestseller but wait maybe nobody's actually going to like it but it deserves to be on the bestseller list but wait maybe it's not you know like it's this sort of dichotomy.

[23:04]There's no middle and and yeah even to write I mean I don't know how how you felt when you were writing your books plural but like you kind of need to believe you're a genius.

[23:14]In the morning when you sit down to like at least I need to feel like this is great like what I'm doing this is is really good and then later this I go because that when I wrote this morning like that stinks but in the moment if I'm being too self critical I won't get it done.

[23:30]Like I have to summon a state of like insane ego and then later turn that off and be like okay what's what did I really do you know totally I know and it's hard to explain but I feel like you did it very well because I don't really understand.

[23:45]Yeah it's no it's so bizarre even what you were saying earlier of like yeah that conversation with Lee I had like six years ago, like as soon as you sit down like all the stuff in the jumbled.

[23:54]Mess of your brain just like eeks out when you need it to and come and it's just like you don't even know what why the inputs get in there to begin with and like why you remember certain things and then why you pull them out the brain is like bizarre but I feel like.

[24:09]I don't know writing just it's like examining human nature over and over yet yeah I'm like I'm the least like new age you will person ever but as soon as I have to start explaining writing I'm like well it's your subconscious talking and it's some of these forces you don't understand I mean I really do think there's something.

[24:29]Subrational that's happening you know we just don't really understand and that's the magic of course to yes totally and of course our poor families exactly yeah they need to hide tolerance for pain as well yeah.

[24:43]That's fiction right I have this I have I've just been like rewriting well I shouldn't be rewriting it because we're not my novel but I'm like oh well it's not I haven't it in yet so I'm just going to yeah yeah yeah yeah.

[24:55]Like this character I have of the mom like this is getting a little bit close you know like I know she has two dogs in the book one dog in real.

[25:03]I mean like this is she's going to figure this out you know yeah yeah I mean I've I've gone through a little I've had some fallout before like I've sort of been on that roller coaster and it.

[25:18]isn't pleasant but I also think to your point it's like when you're you can't sit down and write with all these you know guardrails up like don't touch that don't touch you know you kind of just have to go and then later you know maybe be like oh do I do I tweak that do I change the name but.

[25:33]I mean as soon as you sit down to to write and you start telling yourself what's off limits yes like it's a creative shutdown I just my dad.

[25:42]I texted my dad this clip the other day that I love I think it's from chest law Milo she goes up you know when a writer is born the family is finished.

[25:49]Like brutal like Eastern European like sorry.

[25:54]Are you a writer you're you're going to be in the book.

[25:57]Are you going to LA at all on your tour you should come to my bookstore.

[26:01]Oh my god I'd love to not at the moment but I've I have friends in LA I've actually never been to LA period so I would really love to.

[26:09]I'm going to take you up on this and you're going to find me knocking at your bookstore no no I would love it I feel like well first of all I would just love it but you'll like it and I'm coming now I'm going to.

[26:21]Okay, please do we'll set it up.

[26:24]Okay, I just ordered like a huge stack of your books for.

[26:27]No, I'm there.

[26:30]Okay, amazing well congratulations I will read everything you write from now on I'm going to go back and read the address I think you know and you're so young too I mean I know that sounds not like I'm so much older but like.

[26:42]You have so much more writing and store it's exciting like it's wonderful to have like a new talent you know but like think about all the books you'll have written in the next.

[26:52]30 years, you know, by the time you're you know it's just amazing I can't wait to read them so I really appreciate that really means a lot and and.

[27:01]I love I love watching like other writers or filmmakers like arcs like I love you know going on to Wikipedia and seeing us for the free and yeah all I've ever wanted in life is to to get to have a little you know arc like that so I that means a lot and I really appreciate it.

[27:17]All right, well thank you thanks for coming on and I wish you all the best for your lunch.

[27:23]Okay, okay, okay bye bye.

[27:28]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week.

[27:45]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan that texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.