Elise Loehnen, ON OUR BEST BEHAVIOR: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to Be Good
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Elise Lounen is the author of On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins and The Price
[1:07]Women Pay to Be Good.
[1:09]Elise is the host of Pulling the Thread.
[1:12]She is co-written 12 books, five of which were New York Times bestsellers.
[1:16]She was the chief content officer of Goop and co-hosted the Goop Podcast and the Goop
[1:20]Lab on Netflix.
[1:22]Previously, she was the editorial projects director of Conde Nast Traveler.
[1:26]Elise lives in Los Angeles with her husband and two cents.
[1:29]Welcome, Elise.
[1:30]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss.
[1:33]Your latest instant New York Times bestseller On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins
[1:38]and The Price Women Pay to Be Good.
[1:40]Thank you for having me and thank you for your great service to readers everywhere.
[1:44]I'm such a fan and like you all I want to do is talk about books and talk to writers
[1:50]and push books into people's hands.
[1:54]Yes, amazing.
[1:55]And a podcaster.
[1:56]I mean, we have like, oh, it's like the same thing we can all just talk about books
[2:01]and learn about people who are every day.
[2:03]It's the greatest.
[2:04]It is a great, it is a great privilege.
[2:07]I feel very fortunate to have worked my way towards my job.
[2:12]Okay, so let's start with the book and then I want to let's talk about your whole job.
[2:17]Okay, On Our Best Behavior, tell us in a verse what it's about when you started working
[2:21]on it, why you started working on it and all of the good stuff about the book.
[2:25]Yeah.
[2:26]So when people look at it, they might at first think that it's a book about religion,
[2:31]but it's not.
[2:32]It is it relies on the seven deadly sins as a superstructure, but it's really about how religion
[2:38]in many ways, particularly in our Judeo Christian world is culture.
[2:43]It is in all of us, regardless of our beliefs conscious or unconscious.
[2:49]And to that end, the seven deadly sins interestingly enough weren't even, they're not gospel.
[2:55]They weren't in the New Testament.
[2:56]They came out of the Egyptian desert in the fourth century and then Pope Gregory turned
[3:01]them into the Cardinal vices and assigned them all the Mary Magdalene in the same homily
[3:05]that he also turned her into a penitent prostitute that all happened in the sixth century.
[3:11]So that's my main disclaimer because I think a lot of people are like, I don't want to wrestle
[3:15]with a book or I don't believe in any of this or this isn't me.
[3:18]And what I try to do in the book is delineate that it is in all of us.
[3:25]ideas about goodness and what it is to be a good woman in our culture.
[3:32]And I'm making the argument that women are coded for goodness and men are coded for power.
[3:38]Although the book isn't really about men, it's tangentially about men, but men should
[3:41]really read this if they're interested in the psychology of women in ways that I think
[3:45]we wouldn't choose or own or claim, but as we know, reputational damage to women that
[3:54]she's bad, lazy, unkind, uncaring, slutty, lazy, fat, like these are the worst things
[4:05]that you can do to a woman.
[4:07]Whereas these have no, make no dent in men.
[4:11]Really a man can do any in all sorts of terrible things.
[4:14]And if he's still perceived as powerful, we still revere him.
[4:17]So I got the idea for the book in part because I wanted to understand what was alive
[4:23]in myself, and I go through written 12 books throughout my career.
[4:30]I was a magazine editor, digital sort of media executive, and I've been very comfortable
[4:36]in my whole life, standing behind other people and brands.
[4:40]And I didn't really think much of this until really my agent was like, what are you, what
[4:46]are you doing?
[4:47]Like, what is this about, you know, and I was like, well, I don't have a book in me.
[4:51]and she was like, well, I beg to differ because you've written 12.
[4:55]And I had to really think about that.
[4:57]What is this tendency in me to hide?
[4:59]And I recognize that I was scared quite simply of being seen and drawing attention to myself
[5:06]and that I'm not alone in that.
[5:08]And then the other sort of, which was interesting to me.
[5:12]And then the other sort of animating impulse at the beginning was just this like feeling
[5:16]like I was at the apex of my career, married, I have two young children, I, I sort
[5:22]of done it.
[5:23]I've made it.
[5:24]And yet I was still chronically breathless and chased by these feelings of not being enough.
[5:32]And I consciously, I could sort of intellectually recognize that that was crazy, quote unquote.
[5:41]And yet these voices inside of me were so persistent, driving me.
[5:46]You know, I realized I had never sat through a movie at home.
[5:49]I'd never spent more than 20 minutes watching TV without doing something else or getting
[5:54]up to do something else like that.
[5:56]I had this sort of compulsive cattle prod in me that was driving me.
[6:03]And so I really had to turn and face and start to tease apart.
[6:07]What is this in me?
[6:09]And it was really interesting.
[6:10]It was like kind of wild to recognize that this, you know, there are great books about
[6:16]anger, women in anger, women in food, women in work, women in being a mother.
[6:22]And then to recognize though, actually this is all a system.
[6:26]This is all a system of goodness.
[6:28]And these are all interrelated.
[6:30]And yes, we should examine each of them on their own.
[6:33]And they're all worthy of like really incredible books and thought and research.
[6:38]And these are all part of a system and they are all overlapping and they crash into each
[6:42]other in interesting ways.
[6:45]So the compulsive cattle prod, it's a really your fault.
[6:48]It's a systemic response.
[6:51]Yes.
[6:52]And this is an, I believe, I haven't met a woman who seems sort of post patriarchal and patriarchy
[6:59]such a boogeyman word and what does it even mean word and we sort of throw it around.
[7:05]But it's a system.
[7:07]It's this internalized patriarchy that I think drives us about what we, how we police ourselves
[7:13]and then in turn, how we police each other and the standards and norms that we establish.
[7:18]And then the way that that impacts other women.
[7:22]And so I think what also happens is this, that compulsive doing cattle prodding, I'm not
[7:28]a good enough mother, I'm not a good enough employee.
[7:30]I'm in a, I know I spent all week doing late nights at my law firm on this brief, whatever
[7:37]it is that lawyers do.
[7:39]And now I need to compensate, not, I can't say, oh, wow, I'm empty.
[7:43]I am tapped out.
[7:44]I need to rest.
[7:46]No, women are like, well, now I need to compensate by doing too intensive packed days
[7:53]of my kids.
[7:54]And I'm in a, you know, just kill myself for them so that they realize that they're
[8:00]equal in terms of my attention.
[8:02]So instead of sort of like doing what men do, which is saying, I'm white, I need a break,
[8:10]women I think sort of feel like we have to override that need for rest.
[8:15]For example, the good women prioritize other people's needs over their own wants and desires
[8:23]and that it's our job, there's nothing worse than being called a bad mother, a bad employee,
[8:30]whatever it is, that there's no time for rest.
[8:33]And we sort of enforce it in our own behavior with each other.
[8:38]And so then you look around and you're like, well, shit, I'm really dropping the ball
[8:42]and my kids birthday party or whatever it may be, you know, it's very hard to resist.
[8:49]So what is the answer?
[8:53]First there's like the deep sigh of relief of being seen and being like, okay, yes,
[8:59]that is me and I see why perhaps not just perhaps, but I buy the argument that it is not
[9:05]just me as a person in my own, like, it's not my family's influence, right?
[9:10]Like this is from, this is a part of a greater fabric, but then what?
[9:15]Yeah.
[9:16]So I think a huge step is just consciousness, awareness, conversation.
[9:21]And what I love about the book is much as I want everyone to buy it, even just for the
[9:26]bibliography.
[9:27]I'm a wide reader and I'm really good.
[9:29]I think my sort of secret sauce is distilling lots of disparate sources of information
[9:34]and putting them together, but is you can almost, you can almost not read the book and
[9:40]be and be in conversation about it, you know, and I'm in a list of sense to remind people
[9:45]because most people are probably like, I don't know what they are, sloth, pride and
[9:49]be, gluttony, greed, lust, anger.
[9:54]And then I included originally they were eight thoughts and the eight thought was sadness.
[9:58]And I wrote about sadness at the end in the cup.
[10:00]on text of men because making the argument
[10:02]that I think severing boys and men from feeling
[10:06]and these ideas of sort of weakness,
[10:08]the primary symptom of that is toxic masculinity
[10:11]and our boys and men are in,
[10:15]I'm more concerned about our boys and men
[10:18]than I am about women.
[10:19]Women are incredibly durable,
[10:21]have learned how to survive and often thrive.
[10:24]And I have no doubts that as we sort of get over ourselves
[10:28]will be fine.
[10:29]We've been outperforming boys in school for a century.
[10:33]We're incredibly hardworking, clearly.
[10:35]We tend to prioritize other people, et cetera.
[10:39]So I'm not so worried about women
[10:41]as frustrated as I am with sort of the lack of equity.
[10:45]I think we can overcome not quite fast
[10:47]if we can get out of our own way,
[10:48]but I am worried about boys and men.
[10:51]So for me, it's like it's recognizing,
[10:54]oh, that this is in me,
[10:56]this inability to identify what I want
[11:00]because women are conditioned that they don't have any wants,
[11:04]that they really are here to serve other people's needs first.
[11:09]So we don't have great models for like this is what I want.
[11:11]And I'm gonna go after it.
[11:12]And we obviously police women who we perceive
[11:15]as ambitious or driven, right?
[11:17]We're very quick to put women in particular back in their places.
[11:22]That's what the chapter and pride is about.
[11:24]Again, they're all very overlapping.
[11:26]But with envy, for example, my thesis,
[11:30]which started with a conversation with psychotherapist,
[11:33]Lori Gottlieb, and maybe you should talk to someone
[11:35]where she says that she tells clients
[11:37]to pay attention to their envy because it shows them
[11:39]what they want.
[11:41]And that was a groundbreaking idea for me
[11:43]when I talked to her, I don't know, five years ago
[11:47]because I realized that what I think is happening with me,
[11:50]and this is my thesis, is that I am so unused.
[11:54]I don't under unused to thinking about what I want.
[11:59]I'm so not practiced and even identifying that emotion.
[12:03]And envy is so gross, right?
[12:04]And that when we suppress or repress,
[12:08]this emotion, this feeling that we think is quote unquote bad,
[12:12]we project it on the object who is inspiring us.
[12:15]And so I think a lot of this women on women hate this,
[12:21]particularly when it's generalized.
[12:23]I just don't like her.
[12:25]She rubs me the wrong way, who does she think she is?
[12:29]I thought her books sucked.
[12:31]I don't understand why people think she's so great.
[12:35]All of that sort of condemnation and criticism
[12:38]that is very sanctioned.
[12:40]It's this like women are women and women are caddy, all of that.
[12:44]It's not who we are.
[12:45]I think it's just how we've been culturally conditioned
[12:48]to behave, it's accepted.
[12:50]And it's in the moment more comfortable to do that
[12:54]and then to say, what is she doing that's like making me
[12:57]so uncomfortable and recognizing that she is pushing
[13:00]on a dream that we have for ourselves.
[13:03]I want to write a book.
[13:04]I want my body to look like that
[13:07]or I want my kids to be well-behaved readers.
[13:11]Whatever it may be, it might be really small,
[13:14]but it's so full of information.
[13:17]We're just not conditioned to even acknowledge it
[13:19]because we repress it.
[13:21]So for example, like so, that's what we do with our envy,
[13:25]with my sloth, my fear of sloth, for example,
[13:28]it's just making myself sit and just move through
[13:34]the feelings of discomfort that start to rise in me
[13:37]when I have that feeling that I should be quote unquote
[13:40]doing something productive.
[13:42]It's like an internal battle where I am just like stop
[13:47]or like you are not allowed to start another book proposal
[13:50]until August 1st.
[13:52]I have to sort of retrain myself.
[13:55]I know that sounds, but it's an internal conversation
[13:58]of just being conscious of what's like shooting up in me
[14:03]and taking the time to sort of stop.
[14:06]It's interrupting myself when I start tugging at my stomach
[14:11]or saying that I should go on a diet
[14:14]or saying that I've been bad and I should be good, quote unquote,
[14:19]all familiar language for all of us, right?
[14:21]It's so unconscious and it's just stopping
[14:25]and it's uncomfortable.
[14:27]I'm not saying that it's easy,
[14:29]but it's I think on the other side,
[14:32]there's a promise of liberation.
[14:35]And the book isn't, I could have written it
[14:38]a sort of a stunty, like let's be lustful and greedy
[14:43]and it's not saying that it's not,
[14:45]but it's saying that our extreme self denial
[14:49]and repression is out of balance
[14:52]and that we have to let the fullness of our humanity,
[14:56]we have to own our wholeness, we have to let it come up.
[14:59]It's okay to have hunger.
[15:01]It's a beautiful thing to experience pleasure.
[15:04]It is we need to make it safe for each other to be seen
[15:08]and celebrated for our guests.
[15:09]Because at this moment in time, we all need to show up
[15:14]that women's anger is often righteous and needs to be heard
[15:18]and articulates where our needs are
[15:21]and where our boundaries are.
[15:24]So I promise it's like I didn't wanna write
[15:26]sort of an anthem where you would just feel really pissed.
[15:32]It's not easy to do that, quote unquote,
[15:34]but it's like I could have done that and I didn't want to.
[15:37]I wanted it to move.
[15:39]And it's not a sort of how to tactical
[15:42]like here are your exercises book,
[15:45]but it's a hopeful book.
[15:46]It is a, I think it's just sort of a,
[15:51]at least what I'm seeing in the comments
[15:53]from people who have read it.
[15:54]It's a little bit of a, it's validating.
[15:56]You are saying all the things that I felt
[15:58]that I thought were just me and now I see it in culture
[16:02]and I understand it.
[16:03]And that hopefully then it becomes shorthand for us.
[16:05]To checklist, oh, I'm like feeling envy.
[16:08]We can do it with each other.
[16:09]We can solve each other and just say,
[16:11]do not talk about your body like that.
[16:13]I don't want you to talk about your body like that,
[16:15]et cetera.
[16:16]And I think through that, I don't know.
[16:20]Maybe I'm, maybe I'm a Pollyanna,
[16:22]but I think most of us had no idea
[16:27]that these voices were running our lives in that way
[16:30]and or we attributed them to our parents
[16:34]or our partners and that was part of it for me too.
[16:37]I was like, wait, this is not coming from,
[16:39]my husband in no way is telling me
[16:42]that I should be paying bills while we watch succession.
[16:46]He's not, no one's like, this is not for my parents.
[16:49]It's as fun as it is to blame parents for everything.
[16:54]This is much deeper.
[16:55]This is bigger than any single point of influence.
[17:00]Wow.
[17:01]So, and first of all, where are you reading the comments
[17:04]and does this mean you read reviews
[17:05]and how do you feel about that?
[17:07]No, I should sit on Instagram.
[17:10]So, these are people who typically are saying nice things
[17:13]are they're for tagging me and I'm seeing them.
[17:17]Okay.
[17:18]I'm sure the people who are not saying these things
[17:20]are not tagging me and I haven't,
[17:22]I haven't gone deep into good reads or Amazon.
[17:27]I just, it's not that I don't care.
[17:31]It's that I know well enough that I don't wanna,
[17:36]in some ways, I feel really good about the book.
[17:38]And I'm like, I did my best.
[17:40]I worked really hard on this book.
[17:43]So, I worked so hard.
[17:45]I mean, you understand.
[17:46]I worked so hard on this book,
[17:49]clarifying, researching, compiling, clarifying, clarifying,
[17:52]clarifying, clarifying, clarifying.
[17:55]If it doesn't suit everyone's needs,
[17:57]it's, I've done, I've done my best.
[18:00]And yeah, I think criticism is,
[18:05]can be full of really useful information.
[18:07]And I try to understand where I'm triggered
[18:10]so that I can sort of take what's useful.
[18:13]But I don't know.
[18:15]I haven't, I just haven't allowed myself.
[18:18]The team has pulled out sort of some good reviews, et cetera.
[18:22]But it's really interesting.
[18:23]It's like sort of the first reactive feedback
[18:26]that I've seen that's negative on Instagram
[18:29]has been sort of, this is anti-god.
[18:32]And this, you know, and I'm like, learn your history.
[18:37]You know, before you defend, before you have defend,
[18:41]poke Gregory the first, which I'm sure,
[18:44]I think these people think that this is gospel
[18:46]from the mouth of Jesus or Moses.
[18:49]I'm like, no, this is not, you know?
[18:52]Yeah, this is like a very contemporary movement, too.
[18:55]Yeah, yeah, this is all made up by man.
[18:58]So, wow.
[18:59]So interesting. Oh my gosh.
[19:01]Do you feel comfortable starting a movement?
[19:03]Like, do you feel good about, you know?
[19:06]I mean, that's, that would be amazing.
[19:08]I don't, I write about my book,
[19:10]myself in the book far more than I thought that I would,
[19:13]which really came, that's not how I sold the book,
[19:17]but ultimately became necessary.
[19:18]Like, how did these, I needed to bring myself into it
[19:21]because I like to be clinical and abstract.
[19:25]And my editor rightly was like,
[19:28]you need to, you need to bring people through this experience
[19:32]and make, to make it land and make it something
[19:36]that other people feel comfortable examining in their own lives.
[19:39]So in some ways, it's a very vulnerable, revealing book.
[19:44]And then at the same time, I feel like I don't see myself
[19:48]as, I think the book stands on its own.
[19:51]And I want to be one of those writers
[19:53]who can comment on culture
[19:56]and pull together other people's research and scholarship.
[20:00]and history and not have it be about me, if that makes sense. I don't want to, you know,
[20:07]I'm not, I don't also want my life to become like, well, I better blow up my life so that I have
[20:13]interesting things to write about. So yes, I would love to be a co-participant if that makes sense.
[20:20]And I like standing with the readers. I like being part of it in that way. Last like,
[20:27]I'm an authority and I'm an expert and I'm in a, you know, does that make sense?
[20:32]Totally. Yes. Yeah. So ultimately, are you relieved that your agent suggested you write a book on
[20:38]your own? Yes. I'm very grateful. And I'm grateful to her because she took me on when I was a baby
[20:46]and she is an agent sort of that's definitely well beyond me. So I'm grateful that she kept me
[20:51]all these years, even though I was just ghosting. And yeah, because I don't know what that was
[20:58]in me, but I'm sure anyone listening feels the same. I think part of it, I don't know if you
[21:04]feel this way, but like I have such a deep reverence for writers. And that's how what I grew up,
[21:10]I grew up primarily reading and that's still how I function. And so it's very scary to sort of
[21:18]say your name on the binding of a book. And part of it was like, I had to use my envy again to be
[21:23]like, well, if what, if her or why not me, that's like sort of the, the upside of envy is to use it,
[21:30]identify your wants. And then use those people as quote unquote expanders where you're like,
[21:36]okay, if she can do this, it's sort of pushing past all of the scarcity mentality that affects
[21:41]so many of us. If she can do this, I can do this too. Not because she has this, I can't also have this.
[21:48]Yep. And so for me, it was this like, oh wait, this person wrote like a book that seems like it
[21:56]didn't take that long. I'll say that kindly. And they, I could do this. Like, why am I holding myself
[22:04]back? So, so you are a master branding person. You've worked on a million magazines and content,
[22:14]you're just like a genius, obviously, from listening to you for a second, anyone could be able
[22:19]to identify that. Are you going to take this framework and turn this into like a, almost like a
[22:24]Gretchen Rubin-esque, you know, like changing set of tools or are you interesting to examine
[22:33]something else or like, are there going to be workshops and classes and workbooks that you know,
[22:39]where are we going? That's a great question. And I think, so I have a podcast and a newsletter
[22:46]called Pulling the Thread, which I feel like is sort of my umbrella because that's what I'm doing,
[22:51]just pulling the threads of these stories that we tell about who we are. And so I think on a
[22:55]meta level and on our best behavior fits into that world. I would love to do workshops because
[23:03]I think it's perfect. And even, you know, ideally with the women and other people in the book,
[23:11]like bringing in Harriet Lerner and doing anger, Melissa Fabos and talking about lust. You know,
[23:18]there are so many amazing thinkers in these spaces who I would love to collaborate with. And I
[23:23]think that there's part of it that's like a mental model. So how do we get into our bodies and
[23:29]really in touch with ourselves? So I would love to do that. But I don't think that I will go
[23:36]in the Gretchen Rubin, something I'm not that focused. I am capable, but my interests are so
[23:43]wide. I think like Gretchen, I like, I like tidy packages. I like sort of superstructure. I think
[23:50]it's nice for the reader where you're sort of, it's a lot of work taken care. You know, we all
[23:56]have that experience of being in a book and you're like, where is this person going, right? And I
[24:01]think there's just that line between recognizing that things, all things can't be pat and then also
[24:07]that things are archetypal and collective and that these structures exist if you look. So I think I
[24:15]will continue in the vein of examining some of these like ancient ideas and how they have us in
[24:24]their grips. But I don't think I'll stay necessarily. I don't know. I'd love to do a workbook,
[24:30]but no one has offered me a workbook yet, Zippy. So we'll see what happens when I get out in the
[24:35]universe. Well, it's funny. It's like the book, as you know, these books, I think we all put a lot
[24:43]of attention on sort of press and like, how much attention are you getting out of the gate? But really,
[24:47]what sells books is primarily women, as you know, reading them and telling them their friends and
[24:55]creating these sort of word of mouth network effects. And so I'm in the, I'm about a month,
[25:02]five weeks in. So I'm in sort of the early days of like, will there be an infectious curve of
[25:09]word of mouth? We'll see. Yeah. Well, I also think part of what makes books really resonate is when
[25:16]they end up changing your own life for the better. And they change the way you see
[25:21]them, whether it's like finding joy in a round-shaped, you know, lamp, because like, you know,
[25:29]joyful, the book tells you to buy that or you examine, you know, okay, I'm watching, I'm looking at
[25:34]this Instagram post and hating this woman because I'm jealous. Oh, wait, maybe I should, you know,
[25:40]have a martini and post it. No, I'm kidding. But no, I do, there's so much from your book
[25:47]and your whole platform that is highly helpful in the day-to-day making life better for every day
[25:54]women. And that is something that people will of course adopt as they have already. So yes,
[26:01]I just want women to stop carrying around these feelings of badness and not enoughness. And then
[26:07]either internalizing them deeply or projecting them onto other people, I just, you know, the book
[26:13]is so much about also nature versus culture and our inability to ever satisfactorily tease them
[26:20]apart. Like, who are we versus who are the stories we tell about who we are? And I think women
[26:26]and men. But for women, these pernicious stories about how women behaves, her places in the cave,
[26:36]her, you know, she's deviant if she doesn't have these qualities or even that like women are gossipy,
[26:42]alliance building, backstabbing jerks. It's like, well, no, that's how we've been cultured.
[26:47]That's this culture. This isn't nature. This is how we've been taught to handle our aggression.
[26:53]This isn't, this isn't who we are. And I think the more that we can get closer to who we are,
[27:00]the more we can show up in the world because women are amazing, ultimately. And watch out.
[27:08]You know, I also feel like we're like boxers who've been training at high altitude.
[27:12]And we can, you know, get out of our own way and more importantly get on side with each other.
[27:19]Yeah. I really think the world will be in a better place.
[27:24]At least you are such a rock star. Oh my gosh, I have eight trillion more questions and like
[27:31]threads to take this conversation. But anyway, I hope we can continue this in some of
[27:36]us love to on your book. It's amazing. You're amazing. And wow, fun just to listen to you speak.
[27:43]Really? Oh, thank you. Genius. Okay. All right. Thanks, please.
[27:48]All right. Let me know when you're in LA. Okay. Thanks for listening to this episode
[27:53]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[27:58]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[28:03]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:07]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to
[28:12]Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.