Ashley Audrain, THE WHISPERS
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Ashley Audrein is the author of The Whisperers, a novel.
[1:06]This is actually one of my Zippy's book club picks for this fall.
[1:11]So be sure to join Zippy's book club, which you can read about on Zippy Media.com, and
[1:15]attend our book club where we can discuss The Whisperers, and then we'll have a Q&A with
[1:20]Ashley about the book.
[1:22]Doesn't that sound like fun?
[1:23]Why would you not want to join?
[1:24]Come on, you can do it.
[1:25]Anyway, Ashley Audrein's debut novel, The Push, was in New York Times, Sunday Times
[1:29]of London, and number one, International Bestseller, and a good morning America book club
[1:34]pick.
[1:35]I had Ashley on For the Push as well.
[1:37]It has sold in more than 40 territories, and a limited television series is currently in
[1:42]development.
[1:43]Ashley previously worked as a publicity director of Penguin Books Canada, prior to that,
[1:47]she worked in public relations.
[1:49]She lives in Toronto, where she and her partner are raising their two young children.
[1:53]Welcome, Ashley.
[1:54]Thank you so much for coming back on mom's time to read books to discuss The Whisperers,
[1:59]which as I was just telling you, I have not been able to put down, I've been like
[2:02]carrying it around into cars out of cars, like, don't talk to me right now, kind of
[2:07]books.
[2:08]So thank you.
[2:09]Oh, thanks, Vivian.
[2:10]Thanks for having me.
[2:11]Of course.
[2:12]Okay, tell listeners what The Whisperers is about.
[2:14]Dora, so The Whisperers is about four neighboring women who live on Harlow Street, and
[2:19]they don't quite realize the ways in which their lives are connected until there's a
[2:23]tragedy that happens one night on the street.
[2:26]That tragedy sort of acts as the thread, you know, that's pulled in all of the women's
[2:30]lives, kind of unravel in different ways, and they're forced to face secret save, long
[2:35]kept, and they're forced to sort of face The Whisperers.
[2:38]They have long ignored in their lives, and realize ways in which they are indeed quite
[2:42]connected.
[2:43]Yeah.
[2:44]So interesting.
[2:45]I've been shocked a couple of times.
[2:47]That's so good.
[2:48]That's good.
[2:49]Not to mention the one, I don't even, I don't want to give anything away, but the whole
[2:53]situation on the bed.
[2:54]You know?
[2:55]Yeah.
[2:56]Yeah.
[2:57]It's like, no, this is not happening.
[2:58]Stop.
[2:59]And then I was like, where is Ashley coming up with this?
[3:03]Yes.
[3:04]Yes.
[3:05]That is a scene.
[3:06]Yeah.
[3:07]Okay.
[3:08]Maybe this is your deepest darkest secrets coming to haunt us all.
[3:11]I know.
[3:12]I was joking with my friends, but nobody will ever let me have a sit for them again,
[3:16]I'm sure.
[3:17]But that's okay.
[3:18]Oh my gosh.
[3:21]So there's so much to discuss about this book.
[3:24]There are so many takes on motherhood.
[3:26]I feel like all of this is like a kind of referendum, but some sort of exploration of
[3:30]different types of motherhood and you know, what it takes.
[3:33]Are you the type of mom who wants everything to look good, but not be there.
[3:39]And in fact, where do you want to devote yourself completely 100% and lose another part
[3:44]of yourself or, you know, is it to your kid's advantage or not?
[3:48]Like that's the other thing.
[3:49]It's like, are we all doing our kids a service?
[3:52]Are we hurting them with our parenting?
[3:54]So maybe just start with parenting, mothering in general, parenting in general, and what
[3:59]you were hoping to sort of tease out with some of these narratives.
[4:03]Yeah, sure.
[4:04]Yeah.
[4:05]So I did sort of want to, you know, especially with the characters, we hear from the
[4:09]perspective of four women, I should say, on the book.
[4:12]And three of them are women sort of in midlife and one of them is an 80-year-old neighbor
[4:16]sort of watching it all go down.
[4:17]And two of these women in particular who we hear from, Blair and Whitney are polar
[4:22]opposites, you know, when it comes to mothering and parenting.
[4:26]And I had so much fun writing them, you know, they are best friends connected through
[4:30]their children.
[4:31]And I think that's such an interesting relationship, like the mom friend, you know?
[4:35]Like so often we become friends with women who maybe we would not normally in any other
[4:39]circumstance, but we're connected to our kids, you know, because they're in the same
[4:42]year at school or in this case, you know, they live across the street from each other
[4:45]other and become quite close.
[4:47]And I think that, you know, we talk about the different kinds of parents and different
[4:50]kinds of mothers.
[4:51]And so often I think we like learn about ourselves as mothers in the reflection of
[4:56]other people, you know, like we sort of mother in relation to each other a lot.
[5:00]I don't know if you found that with your kids, but, you know, so often you'll look
[5:03]at another mom and you'll just so admire something so much, you know, about the way that
[5:06]she mothers or the way she is with her kid or the decision she's made.
[5:10]And it really makes you look at your own life and think like, am I, you know, it's a lot
[5:13]of comparison.
[5:14]And as you're measuring up to that, maybe you've made completely different decisions
[5:17]and that's also a reflection, you know, to kind of stop and think, you know, why would
[5:21]made the decisions we have as parents.
[5:23]And so these two women, yeah, they're really at the opposite ends, you know, we have
[5:26]Blair who gave up everything in her life, basically, you know, by choice willingly, happily
[5:32]to stay home and raise her daughter.
[5:34]And she was quite satisfied by that, you know, for a long time until she kind of hit
[5:38]this mid-life point, her daughter's a little older, she's feeling less needed and sort
[5:42]of taking a look around and thinking, well, what do I have left?
[5:45]Like, how did I get here?
[5:46]And who really am I?
[5:47]And what am I going to do about that?
[5:48]And then we have Whitney across the street who has three kids and really can honestly
[5:54]say she does not love being a mother, you know, she would rather stay at the office late,
[5:58]you know, to prep for a presentation the next day, then to go home and deal with bedtime
[6:02]and bathtime and all of that.
[6:03]And so I think there's such an interesting pair because, you know, Whitney will often say
[6:07]as she says in the book, like, I just sometimes I just want to be with Blair because it
[6:10]like helps me think about my children.
[6:12]It helps me feel more maternal, you know, and then vice versa.
[6:15]We hear Blair want to be with Whitney because she's just craving something else and she
[6:19]thinks Whitney's so interesting and has so much going on in her life.
[6:22]And so yeah, it was, it was, they sort of back as a foil to one another in terms of
[6:25]their mothering.
[6:26]And I think Whitney keeps blaring around just to make her feel better.
[6:28]Blair is always pumping her up and, you know, it's just like one you need to get encouragement
[6:33]when really she doesn't even deserve the encouragement.
[6:35]Not that we don't all have that.
[6:36]Yeah.
[6:37]And then you have Rebecca, who I think might be my favorite, not that I'm supposed
[6:40]to pick favorites, but Rebecca is, you know, trying, it has been trying, has been having
[6:46]a really hard time with miscarrying babies and just mourning and longing and going through
[6:51]that whole thing, but also pushing her body to the limits as a doctor and going to the
[6:58]edge of sleep over and over and just like, there's one moment where you're like, she had
[7:03]a splash cold water on her face just to be able to like work through the tiredness and
[7:08]all that.
[7:09]Yeah.
[7:10]She's the one taking care of everybody else and that gives us a view into what's happening
[7:13]with Xavier.
[7:14]There's Xavier.
[7:15]But anyway, I kind of loved Rebecca's view on everything.
[7:18]So tell me, tell me a little bit more about creating her character.
[7:21]Yeah.
[7:22]I've heard from a lot of people that Rebecca, you know, is her favorite and she is their
[7:27]favorite.
[7:28]Rebecca is the character.
[7:29]So she's the woman who lives on the street who does not have a child, as you said, she's
[7:32]sort of desperate to have a child of her own and she can get pregnant quite quickly, but
[7:38]she experiences pregnancy loss, you know, she's had this historical pregnancy loss
[7:41]over and over.
[7:42]And I thought it was a bit cruel, you know, to give Rebecca this profession that she
[7:46]has, you know, and also suffer from what she does, you know, in her health because she
[7:51]goes to work every day, you know, saving other people's children.
[7:53]She's a physician in an emergency room, dad or children's hospital.
[7:57]And so that is what she does every day.
[7:59]Look after other people and other people's children and yet, you know, can't have this
[8:02]experience herself.
[8:03]And I've also been a little bit fascinated by physicians, you know, by health care professionals
[8:08]and doctors and you're nodding along, I think it's probably because we're so good minds
[8:12]are in our working completely different ways.
[8:15]But you know, her every day and all in her natural way of thinking is guided by reason
[8:19]and, you know, what is rational and fact and answers to questions.
[8:23]She's a scientist and yet for her own health problem, you know, she sits across the table
[8:29]from a doctor, you know, who says, well, sorry, we just don't have any answers, you know,
[8:33]you know, that women's health reproductive health is, you know, hugely underfunded and
[8:37]under-researched.
[8:38]And that's the reality for many women, right?
[8:40]They don't get answers.
[8:42]And sort of the advice is to hold on to hope, you know, hope for a miracle.
[8:46]And that's not Rebecca's way of thinking, you know, that is not how she has spent her,
[8:50]you know, 38 years on earth.
[8:52]So yeah, I think she's facing, you know, that particular challenge.
[8:56]And, you know, there I had, you know, a lot of discussions with editors and whatnot about
[8:59]how much of this pregnancy loss, you know, to put on the page, like she's kind of recounting
[9:04]these pregnancy losses that she's had in the past.
[9:07]And, you know, it's so interesting, like, I had miscarriages when I was having my children.
[9:11]And I remember sort of after being sort of like stunned by how truly foreign, you know,
[9:17]that experience was.
[9:19]And, you know, and I sort of occurred to me that like, well, well, this is the specifics
[9:24]of it.
[9:25]We do not share.
[9:26]You do not see it on the page.
[9:27]Definitely do not see it on screen.
[9:29]It's this, you know, thing that happens that we very much just skip over, you know, to
[9:33]the next scene, the next chapter.
[9:35]And I think we do that because, you know, this carriage, to me, is one of those things
[9:39]that makes other people uncomfortable.
[9:41]And so as women, you know, we silence ourselves about it or we don't share about it.
[9:46]And so I just wanted to put a bit more of what that really feels like, you know, on the
[9:49]page with Rebecca kind of recounting what that's been like.
[9:52]That was important to me with her character in this book.
[9:55]Well, that absolutely came through and I'm sorry about your own miscarriages and the
[9:59]page.
[10:00]in the end, the loss and the visual stuff and the body stuff and all of it, which you buried
[10:07]the fetus. Oh my gosh. I mean, it's like, it was really, it's tough to read because it's
[10:13]obviously so real and comes from such a place of understanding and empathy and all of that,
[10:19]but just bereft and having all the time. You know, it happens all the time.
[10:23]So it does. And I think the other thing with Rebecca is like, I think that unless you've been through
[10:28]it, you know, you might not realize how completely all consuming it is. And we get to see that
[10:33]through Rebecca. You know, she has to go to work every day. She has to function. She's trying to
[10:37]have this family. She's trying to do all these things. You know, her marriage, everything. And she
[10:40]just cannot stop thinking about it. You know, she cannot stop her mind is stuck there. And I think for
[10:45]a lot of women, that's exactly how it feels. You know, you sort of move through your day going through
[10:48]the motions. But all you're thinking about, you know, is how much you wish you were still pregnant or when
[10:52]you can get pregnant next or, you know, watching the calendar, counting the days, that's such a reality
[10:57]for when I think that you brought up in the book to this three month code of silence. I actually
[11:02]makes it so hard because before three months, we don't tell anybody. But then when you lose the baby,
[11:07]people are like, how are you? You have to be like, I'm fine. But yesterday I was pregnant today.
[11:10]I'm not pregnant, but I can't tell you any of this. So like, I don't know. There's immediately a
[11:14]wall that goes off. You can't be intimate really with anybody without because you're always hiding
[11:18]secrets. It's a strange thing. Isn't it? It's a strange thing that we've arrived at this.
[11:22]We've been in this place for a long time, you know, in society and culture where you just don't
[11:25]talk about it for three months, you know, and that rule comes from this place where, well, you
[11:29]might lose the baby. And then what? Well, the answer is, well, and then everyone around you feels
[11:33]uncomfortable and everyone doesn't know what to say. Like that to me, there's such a disconnect there
[11:37]between, and we uphold that so strongly still. It's so interesting, you know, and, and I like,
[11:42]even, you know, sometimes people will tell you they're pregnant before three months and you sort
[11:45]of go, ooh, like, you sort of, you sort of feel a little bit like you almost don't, you know,
[11:48]you'll be all worried for them. And it's such a strange thing that we have not got past. We have not,
[11:53]you know, evolved with that for some reason. Well, also this instinct to protect ourselves from
[11:57]pain, but it doesn't work. Like that, it doesn't work. It's not like you're like, oh, yeah, okay,
[12:02]it's before three months. It doesn't hurt them because I knew it was coming. Like it's still
[12:06]anyway, whatever. In fact, in fact, it's even more painful, right? Because you are grieving and nobody
[12:10]knows and can't share that with anyone. And yeah, yeah, anyway, but that's only one small part
[12:15]of the story. You know, when I think back on the push to your, for your last book and this book,
[12:22]there is this undercurrent of like, the out of control feeling that every parent sort of
[12:28]feels at times is frustration and where the mind goes to the worst. Like what if you just lost
[12:35]that last bit of control when you're angry or upset and like, what if you go too far? Then what
[12:42]like, of course, every, and you show it in the book. Like of course, you love your kid,
[12:46]everybody loves your kids, but like everyone has those breaking point moments. And I would say 99
[12:51]percent of people that go right wheeled themselves right back and be like, Oh, gosh, you know,
[12:55]that was really got angry there. I'm glad I get, you know, glad they went to school or
[13:03]something or glad I didn't nobody saw me, you know, but I was like, look, I have a neighbor across
[13:07]the hall. And I was like, oh my gosh, does she hear me like screaming when the kids are five minutes
[13:11]like, you know, like kids, you know, it's so embarrassing. And then like, you know, you just have to
[13:16]pack up and move on. But anyway, you explore that instinct and like sort of the, the most generous
[13:22]with the most hurtful. And I don't know, talk a little bit about that. Yeah, no, thanks for that. Yeah,
[13:27]I, you know, yes, I, I think exactly what you said, you know, we've all experienced that. And I
[13:34]think that we like, we live so much more of our lives as mothers in that space of like being on
[13:39]the brink than we would all like to. Right. And we've, we've just, we've all had that experience of
[13:43]like, you know, yelling at our kids and then turning around and being like, God, someone's standing
[13:47]a little too close. And they definitely heard that. Yeah, like the neighbors being in the backyard,
[13:50]you know, having dinner and you realizing, oh, God, like, I love the doors open and I'm yelling at
[13:54]everyone to like, you know, wash their hands or whatever. Yeah. And it's, it's so interesting to me,
[13:59]like, that feels like such a bare exposure, you know, like you might as well be standing naked in
[14:04]front of these people, you know, after someone hears you get angry. And it's so interesting that
[14:08]like we still, I think we still feel such shame as women around anger. And like that starts so
[14:14]young, right? Like I have a daughter who's five and I catch myself all the time, like when she's angry,
[14:19]when she's mad, when she's just wants to throw things like trying to temper her, you know,
[14:23]and there's this, there's this real like uncomfortability around it and this whole message of like
[14:28]being a good girl, you know, that like we don't necessarily give our sons or we don't necessarily
[14:33]act the same way with our sons. And so it starts so young, you know, this sort of, this whole,
[14:37]this, this shame and embarrassment around anger. And I think, you know, I put so much of this book,
[14:42]I was revising during the pandemic and that, you know, we all know that was a disastrous time
[14:47]for so many of us for so many different reasons in different ways. But I think for a lot of us
[14:51]that had little kids at home, which I know you did too, like anger was a daily thing like rage,
[14:57]anger, frustration, and it was at the world at large and circumstance out of our control and
[15:02]then trickle down to, you know, trying to do a math problem with our kids or trying to get them to
[15:06]sit in front of a Zoom, you know, for school. And that, that was really a conversation that I was
[15:10]having every single day with my friends at that time. Like, why am I so angry? Why am I so mad? Where are
[15:16]my patients? And I think a lot of that, you know, has sort of come out in Whitney's character sort of,
[15:20]as I was kind of thinking a lot about this at that time, like we were all feeling it and Whitney
[15:24]certainly struggles with that. You know, she, her, she has one son in particular who is like very
[15:30]triggering for her. You know, he's like this match that gets lit under her and it's almost like
[15:34]everything he does, like irritates her to a level, you know, that's heightened, like beyond, you
[15:38]know, aside from her other, beyond from her other two kids. And I just think that that's, you know,
[15:43]as you said, hopefully we all, you know, most of the time 99.9% of the time we walk ourselves back,
[15:48]right? And we can talk ourselves out of it. But Whitney is someone who has a really hard time doing
[15:54]that, you know, really hard time coping with what to do with that anger. And so that becomes
[15:58]this sort of inciting incident in the book, but then we see it, you know, throughout these, these
[16:01]times when she just has to really cope with like how this feels. And, and what that, you know,
[16:06]what that says about her and what, you know, the, the self-reflection she does because of that.
[16:10]Well, I think we're also all so highly attuned to when we hear other moms do it,
[16:16]because every so often we do hear something that like pushes the boundary a little,
[16:21]like I remember seeing a mom, yell at her daughter in one of my kids classes on the street.
[16:26]And I was like, ooh, but that's a little too much. And now I don't, and I, she in there was like
[16:32]physical stuff involved. And I was just like, like now I'm like, I'm a little more, this is more than
[16:38]just we're angry and we're late, you know? Yes, exactly. And then what do you do, you know,
[16:43]I don't know. And then it's like, what do you interfere? Like if I'm not going to interfere,
[16:46]I barely know this woman, but like, I still, you know, that you're unsettled because like here you
[16:51]are the community and you see something and it's like, well, you know, maybe this isn't okay.
[16:57]So yeah, maybe it isn't okay. Exactly. I think we've all had that too, you know, we've heard
[17:01]something or witnessed something that's just we've gone home and it has not sat right and like we
[17:05]don't feel good about it. And it doesn't mean we don't have empathy for that mother. We all do.
[17:08]We all know, but, but there it, but there is. And it's, I think that's actually really what
[17:12]Blair struggles with in the book with Whitney, you know, she has almost seen too much. And she knows
[17:17]a little too much and she's uncomfortable with it. And yet there's this power imbalance in their
[17:23]relationship, you know, where like Whitney is the stronger, more confident, cooler mom and Blair
[17:29]doesn't have nearly as much, you know, confidence as her, even though she feels like a more capable
[17:33]mother. And so there's, there's this power imbalance where like Blair would never feel like she could
[17:37]call out Whitney on her behavior because it would ruin too much, you know, there's too much at stake
[17:42]in that relationship, you know, between them. And yet we see how, you know, Blair throughout the book
[17:46]is sort of pushed to kind of really have to confront this. And what is she going to say? And what
[17:50]is she not going to say? And what do they rely on each other for? You know, Whitney also sort of knows
[17:54]that like Blair's not bold enough to say anything. And so what secrets can be safe with her, you know.
[17:59]So yeah, that, that part of their friendship is really interesting to write about too.
[18:03]And then we have Mara, who I also found really interesting. And your description of how
[18:10]her mother, her mothering with her son, I'm forgetting her son's name, what was her son's name again?
[18:14]Marcus, Marcus. Marcus, yeah. Her son, Marcus and his autism or what we don't know what it is
[18:21]unless it comes out later. I told you I have a couple pages left to go. But
[18:25]that she has to stay sort of glued to him his whole life. And his descent and how at one point
[18:31]she asks her husband, Albert, like, I need to get, we need to spend some money on a specialist. There
[18:36]might be something wrong. And how that was such a big deal. And how so many people just take it for
[18:42]granted that like when their kids start going off the rails, like there will be help around. But
[18:47]what if there's not? And what, and so for so long there, there wasn't even good, you know,
[18:52]child and mental health stuff available. Anyway, tell me a little bit more about Mara and sort of
[18:58]the old neighborhood into the new and, you know, at her own stuff that happens to her that was like,
[19:04]oh, yes, I really love Mara as the character public closest to my heart just in terms of, you know,
[19:09]writing her story. And, you know, a couple things about her. So yes, her son, Marcus,
[19:13]um, has selective mutism, which actually is an anxiety disorder. And so he chooses, you know,
[19:19]he or he can't, he will not speak unless he's in like a very comfortable situation. And that is
[19:24]only with his mother. And so he won't speak around his father. He won't speak up school. He won't
[19:27]speak to anybody else. And he sort of freezes up, you know, and has this great anxiety and sort
[19:31]of can't function, you know, like another child his age. And so yeah, he, she, she really sort of feels
[19:37]like this great protector of him, you know, that she is the champion of him. She is the only
[19:41]one who is going to ensure his wellbeing, you know, she knows her husband is never going to have
[19:46]a relationship with him, you know, because of the judgment that he cannot shake. And that,
[19:50]yeah, I wanted to write about just how hard that is for her, you know, how hard that is as his
[19:55]person, you know, throughout life to be the only one, you know, who can do any
[20:00]You know, for your child, that is a really, it was just a really hard, you know, position
[20:04]to be in.
[20:05]And also wanting the world to see the good in him that she does, but she knows that that
[20:09]is very difficult.
[20:10]So that sort of her backstory with her son, but we meet her when she is in her 80s.
[20:14]And she is, you know, the neighbor, one of these neighbors on the street.
[20:18]And this was very much inspired by at the time that I was writing the book.
[20:21]I lived in this neighborhood called Little Portugal in Toronto.
[20:24]And I had neighbors who were 80 year old, you know, Portuguese immigrants.
[20:28]They were, you know, being surrounded by all of us, young, noisy families, you know,
[20:34]moving in and renovating.
[20:35]And while, you know, everything everyone was doing on the street, and they were one
[20:38]of the few families left who really embodied this like very beautiful porch culture, you
[20:42]know, they would sit on their porch all day and kind of watch the street go by, you know,
[20:46]they watched us raise our two kids in that house.
[20:49]And, you know, and I never had a concert.
[20:52]We lived it for eight years.
[20:53]And I never once had a conversation with her because she didn't speak any English at all.
[20:56]But there was definitely a really beautiful intimacy there with this woman that you see
[21:00]every day, you know, who watches you walk your kids to school and, you know, everything.
[21:04]And so my mind often wandered to like, you know, I don't know anything about her life,
[21:08]but my mind often wandered to like, I wonder if, like, if this, if it's like nostalgic
[21:12]for her to like watch all these young families raising their kids or if she's just sitting
[21:16]there judging us completely for that like modern motherhood that we're all, you know,
[21:21]the chaos we're all in the middle of.
[21:23]And I don't know, but I really, I wanted to write this character who becomes sort of,
[21:27]you know, Mara becomes very much this voyeur on the street, you know, she knows way
[21:30]more about these women's lives than they would ever imagine that she does.
[21:34]And that knowledge becomes quite, you know, pivotal in the book.
[21:37]But yeah, I just, I thought, we don't often see, you know, the wisdom of an 80-year-old
[21:41]mother on the page, you know, either.
[21:43]And that I really wanted to just give her that wisdom and that role that she deserves.
[21:50]You know, she is so overlooked by everyone and she resents that for sure, but she also holds
[21:55]this kind of tenderness, you know, in her heart for the kids and for everyone else on the street.
[22:00]And yeah, I just, I loved writing her.
[22:02]She just, she was so nice to write.
[22:04]So had you written this when the push came out or what was the timeline?
[22:09]Yeah.
[22:10]So luckily I had a long stretch.
[22:12]It was, I think, 18 months from the time that sort of I sold the two books to the time
[22:15]the push came out.
[22:16]And so I, you know, was obviously revising the push in that time.
[22:19]But I had time to do a very first, very bad draft, as we know, the first draft is always terrible.
[22:25]But that, that, I saw I had got things underway.
[22:27]And then after the push came out really kind of dug into the, the big revising through the pandemic,
[22:33]basically, yeah.
[22:34]Yeah.
[22:35]Wow.
[22:36]So what about now?
[22:37]Are you working on another book?
[22:38]Well, I'm working on something, yeah, I'm working on something now.
[22:42]Yeah.
[22:43]So I, it's so early, I can't say anything about it, but it's some, but I, I'm loving it.
[22:46]I'm really, really loving it.
[22:48]Yeah, I sort of been paused that while the whispers is coming out, it's just sort of dual
[22:52]with the press and stuff, but I'm excited to get back to it.
[22:54]Yeah.
[22:55]Oh my gosh.
[22:56]Exciting.
[22:57]Are your neighbors ever like, uh, are you writing about us like, you know, go away?
[23:04]Well, it's funny.
[23:05]So I, we just moved neighborhoods like we're, we're not far, like 10 minutes away from where
[23:08]we used to live, but we just moved to the summer.
[23:10]So we're just kind of still meeting the neighbors, which is especially awkward, but I actually
[23:15]had a, a message yesterday from a neighbor who's like, hey, I think Ashley, it's, you
[23:19]know, Michelle from Down the Street.
[23:20]I'm just reading your book.
[23:21]I'm thinking, oh, God, she's like, she's not going to bite me to the next backyard party
[23:25]after this.
[23:26]It's not going to happen.
[23:27]We'll see.
[23:28]Oh, my gosh.
[23:30]Have you thought about doing anything for the point of view of the men?
[23:33]I mean, I know sometimes we get little glimmers into them and, but it might be a neat,
[23:37]like, I don't know, audible companion or, I don't know, something just to dig a little
[23:42]deeper.
[23:43]I kind of wanted to know a little bit more about Jacob in particular and just like, yeah.
[23:49]I love that.
[23:50]I love that idea.
[23:51]Yeah.
[23:52]I actually had, I had one point during my revisions.
[23:53]I had sort of, I written some scenes or chapters that were actually from the perspective
[23:58]of some of the men and then and Jacob, yeah, I had, I had kind of like, and I had a lot of
[24:02]fun.
[24:03]In the end, it kind of, you know, had changed directions and didn't need that anymore, but
[24:06]it actually was helpful to kind of just write those scenes and those chapters from the perspective
[24:10]and get more into the minds of them because while we get the perspective from these
[24:14]four women, like there, there are husbands all or very important characters, you know,
[24:17]we just don't get their point of view.
[24:19]So yeah, I think I, I am definitely, definitely interested in that.
[24:22]Yeah, I definitely, I feel like I really know these men very well in my mind.
[24:26]If you want, you could take all those chapters and just throw them on Zippy Meg.
[24:30]We could say, yeah, that's it.
[24:31]That's not chapters, like, what about the men?
[24:34]Yes.
[24:35]No, it's true.
[24:36]No, I would love that.
[24:37]Yeah.
[24:38]Yeah.
[24:39]Oh, well, there we go.
[24:40]Yeah.
[24:41]Interesting.
[24:42]What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[24:44]Oh, yeah.
[24:45]It's actually, I was trying to think this morning of the advice that I gave last time and
[24:48]I can't remember.
[24:49]But I think my, you know, I think the advice that I love to give most, I think is just,
[24:54]has been really important, you know, advice for myself is like, you know, there's that,
[24:59]that phrase, like, dance, like, no one's watching, you know, and I think you really need
[25:02]to write, like, no one's going to read.
[25:04]I think that is so that has been a real guiding thing for me, you know, clearly in these
[25:08]very dark, very dark books.
[25:10]I really think you have to just not worry about what people are going to think and not
[25:14]worry about, like, exactly who's going to read this and write the scenes you really want
[25:18]to write, write the characters you really want, you know, to explore and just kind of go
[25:22]there.
[25:23]And I think, I think if we can do that, you know, we, we can just, we can go to some
[25:27]really moving, interesting, you know, deep places and I, and as a reader, that's, that's
[25:33]what I want to read.
[25:34]You know, I want to really read the truth on the page.
[25:36]So yeah, that's, that's my best advice is just pretend no one's ever going to read
[25:39]it.
[25:40]Love that.
[25:41]Yeah.
[25:42]I don't know.
[25:43]For me, I feel like I have to go somewhere else.
[25:44]Like I have to like get out and just like take my body and like go somewhere else, maybe
[25:49]to like reflect that I'm about to go somewhere else, sort of intellectually or something.
[25:53]I don't know.
[25:54]You know, like do it in the same spot as I do my work.
[25:56]I totally agree with you and I, I am the same.
[25:58]I don't ever, I hardly ever, ever write at home and I need to be out somewhere else.
[26:03]I think actually during the pandemic, when I just found it so difficult with the kids
[26:06]at home to do anything, let alone try to be creative and come up with stuff and, you
[26:10]know, all of that, I was once the hotels opened, you know, here outside of Toronto, I would
[26:15]go, was lucky to like everyone's while go for the weekend away and just like marathon
[26:21]right.
[26:22]And I would find that being outside of the city, like even just outside of this, it's
[26:26]like, it's like something opens up in your brain, you know, and you really can just feel
[26:31]like a total license to just write completely differently, get completely different
[26:35]new idea.
[26:36]There's like a refreshing thing about that if you're, if you can manage to do it, it is
[26:40]so, it's like a kickstart, you know, for writing, yeah, for everything.
[26:45]It's just, yeah, do you have any exciting tours or anything on your tour, you're like
[26:51]so excited about or a stop that you haven't made before or just something fun.
[26:55]Yeah, I'm excited about a few things.
[26:57]I'm actually, I'm, there's going to be the very first, like a literary festival or
[27:01]a book festival happening in Columbus, Ohio this summer, and I'm going to be doing that,
[27:05]which I'm really excited about.
[27:06]And then actually I'm going to the UK to promote the book when it comes out in July.
[27:10]So I'm, I'm very excited to go to London and there's some fun stuff happening there.
[27:13]So I look forward to that.
[27:14]Are you coming to my bookstore?
[27:16]You have to go to my books.
[27:17]Oh, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not amazed at my schedule right now, but I would love to
[27:23]come to your bookstore.
[27:25]I'm just following along with that whole journey that you're on and all the
[27:28]circumstances.
[27:29]Well, if you, I know that's like completely incubated from Toronto, but if you ever get
[27:33]out there, you want to make a stop or you're going that way, please do an event there.
[27:37]We would love it.
[27:38]I would love that.
[27:39]Thanks, David.
[27:40]Thanks for all the support.
[27:41]Thank you.
[27:42]All right.
[27:43]Well, have a great day.
[27:44]Congratulations.
[27:45]And I will be cozying up finishing your book tonight because I cannot stop reading it.
[27:48]Oh, I love that.
[27:49]Thank you so much, Sydney.
[27:50]Okay.
[27:51]Bye.
[27:52]Bye.
[27:53]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[27:57]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[28:01]Books.
[28:02]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[28:06]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:09]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[28:13]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.