Steven Rowley, THE CELEBRANTS
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
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[1:03]Steven Raleigh is the author of the celebrants.
[1:06]Since I interviewed him, it hit the New York Times Bestseller list and was a read-with-chan
[1:11]pick.
[1:12]So excited for him.
[1:13]Oh my gosh, Steven was on my podcast for The Editor, which I also loved and then he had
[1:18]the Gunkel, Julie Chavez is the guest host for this episode.
[1:23]And she is the author of Everyone But Myself, which comes out next year from Zippy Books
[1:28]and she hosts Ask a Librarian.
[1:30]Steven Raleigh is the New York Times Best Selling Author, also of Lilling the Octopus, which
[1:34]was a Washington Post Notable Book of 2016, The Editor, named by NPR as one of the best
[1:40]books of 2019, The Gunkel, which was a Goodreads Choice Awards finalist for 2021 novelist
[1:46]of the year, and winner of the 22nd Thoroughbreds for American humor.
[1:51]His fiction has been published in 20 languages.
[1:53]All of his books are in development for future film or television adaptation.
[1:58]That's really impressive.
[1:59]Originally from Portland, Maine, he is a graduate of Emerson College and currently resides
[2:03]in Palm Springs with his husband, the writer, Byron Lane, and two rescue dogs.
[2:08]Byron Lane has recently been a guest on this podcast as well.
[2:11]Mr. Steven Raleigh.
[2:14]I am so happy that you're here with me today.
[2:16]Welcome to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[2:18]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:20]I'm so excited that I got to be the one to interview you.
[2:24]I have been looking forward to this for months and I am a school librarian and I actually
[2:29]saved your books specifically after school was out because I was like, I don't want this
[2:34]to be ruined by children interrupting me and bothering me and I have to say it was worth
[2:41]the wait.
[2:42]Well, I love that for two reasons.
[2:43]One, first of all, I want a picture behind the scenes at the Zippy Empire that people are arguing
[2:47]over me.
[2:48]You know, don't, don't, don't deflate my ego.
[2:51]No, I will not.
[2:52]But two, you know, I'm so grateful to librarians, you know, in particular, I am able
[2:56]to do what I do today and part because I had parents who insisted I have a public
[3:00]library card and a children's librarian who took an interest in me and again grateful
[3:06]for school librarians now, now more than ever, you know, we don't need to get too deep
[3:11]into it.
[3:12]But it's such a dangerous moment with the defunding of libraries and banning of books
[3:15]again and librarians are on the front lines and I just want to say authors have your backs.
[3:21]We love you and grateful for all that you do.
[3:24]That means so much and I love hearing that from anyone and everyone because it's so true
[3:28]and especially our public librarians.
[3:30]I'm lucky to be in a school district in my position, but, you know, yeah, they are on the
[3:35]front lines and so I'm so grateful and I love hearing about people that haven't experienced
[3:40]with a children's librarian because there is something so special about someone else seeing
[3:46]you and taking an interest in what you're interested in that's just so it's magical.
[3:52]And so I love when people still have that.
[3:54]Yeah, I mean, it really isn't good.
[3:55]I'm coming to you today from my home state of Maine where I'm on book tour currently for
[4:00]the celebrants and so I'll be speaking at my public library this week, which I'm very
[4:04]excited.
[4:05]It feels like a homecoming and I, you know, always wanted to be an author, I think,
[4:09]but it did seem like growing up in a rural state when I did long before social media
[4:13]and the ways in podcasts and the way we have to connect with authors and readers now,
[4:18]that it seemed like maybe it wasn't a job that was available for me that maybe it was
[4:21]something, you know, you could do if you grew up in Manhattan or if you had a society
[4:26]name of some kind, but then tucked away in Maine was Stephen King.
[4:31]And so I've graduated, yeah, you may, yeah, others may have too.
[4:35]In fact, you know, I think my parents sometimes think I'm kind of a big deal and I have
[4:39]to remind them that I'm not even the most famous writer named Stephen from Maine.
[4:43]Good to keep them humble, those parents, they really get crazy.
[4:48]That was, you know, that was great.
[4:49]I graduated right from the children's room right to Stephen King.
[4:52]So I don't know what that says about me, but I love everything about that.
[4:55]I was just seeing that he has another book coming out.
[4:57]So that's so exciting.
[4:59]No, you can all argue over who gets the interview him.
[5:01]I know I'm just very lucky to be here.
[5:02]Right.
[5:03]Oh, no, I'm so thrilled.
[5:05]Okay, I want to, I want to loop back around to what you were talking about with libraries
[5:09]and librarians and just especially diverse voices because in your own acknowledgments,
[5:13]you spoke about Sally Kim, your editor and I loved reading that.
[5:16]So let's, we'll put a pin in that.
[5:19]But I wanted to start by just giving people a sense of what the book is about.
[5:27]And I have to say this is a read with Jenna book pic.
[5:30]It's a New York Times bestseller.
[5:31]It's already out and everywhere and it's been listed on so many lists.
[5:36]There's so many things that are just going beautifully for this book and for your career.
[5:41]And I do have to say it's so well deserved.
[5:44]or writing is so joyful and especially now I just think it's so necessary.
[5:49]So I'm so thankful to see all of it.
[5:52]So let's start.
[5:53]Will you give just the quick like what this book is about because I'm afraid of giving
[5:56]away too much?
[5:57]Sure.
[5:58]Yeah.
[5:59]And I'm going to do it specifically without giving, without giving away too much.
[6:02]So the celebrants is about a group of college friends from the class of 1995 who right
[6:07]before graduation lose one of their own to suicide.
[6:11]And after attending his funeral and hearing all the incredible things said about him wonder
[6:17]if he hadn't been alive to hear those things if he might have made a different choice.
[6:22]And so they make a pact in that moment because they're about to scatter, you know, in all
[6:26]different directions when they graduate to reassemble at a moment's notice to throw each
[6:32]friend their funeral at their lowest point in life so that they can hear how much they're
[6:36]loved and how much they're needed and how necessary they are here.
[6:40]And hopefully that will reignite a passion for for living.
[6:43]I don't think any of them think they'll ever need to use it.
[6:46]But then over the decades, the life starts to intervene as it does.
[6:51]And as with all of my books, well, it may start with a serious sounding premise, there
[6:55]is a lot of humor and a lot of joy and a lot of laughs, hopefully, because what is it
[7:00]you do when you get together with a group of friends, you know, drink maybe, but then
[7:05]laugh, hopefully.
[7:07]And so I hope humor is such a big part of this book.
[7:10]And it really is, there's going to be a lot of talk about how artists and writers
[7:15]in particular address the past few years that we have been through.
[7:19]And while I conveniently skipped the years 2019 to 2023 because that's my prerogative,
[7:24]you know, as a writer, I don't want to, I'm not ready to go there yet.
[7:28]I do think it is this idea of coming together in celebration and telling the people that
[7:34]you love what they mean to you while they're still here.
[7:37]That's very much a reaction to COVID and to these last few years.
[7:41]And when we were isolated and not able to be together in the way that we might have wished.
[7:45]Yeah, that's a beautiful way to put it.
[7:48]Well, I'm so glad that you talked about what the, I mean, for me, what the heart of
[7:54]the book was, right, that we need to tell our people how much we love them and how much
[7:59]they bring to our lives today.
[8:02]And that I think really resonated with me.
[8:05]Can we just jump into the deep end here for a minute because I kept, I kept reading this
[8:10]book and thinking, I wonder how he feels about death.
[8:15]And I wonder if this did writing this change anything for you, like what, I don't know,
[8:21]tell me a little bit about how you, how you approached it.
[8:25]Yeah.
[8:26]Okay.
[8:27]So let's jump into death in the context of comedy.
[8:29]Yes.
[8:30]Yes.
[8:31]Thank you, Mero.
[8:32]Yeah.
[8:33]But I do, I do think it's, you know, it's, it's an interesting point and a lot of my work
[8:36]has touched on grief.
[8:37]Yes.
[8:38]You know, my first novel, Louis and the octopus was about the grief over our, losing
[8:42]our animals and our, you know, our loved cats and dogs.
[8:45]You know, the ganko, my novel was about, you know, children who, who'd lost their mom,
[8:50]kind of.
[8:51]And that's some, here, you know, we're touching on, unloosing a friend and what it means
[8:55]to lose a friend and, and it's something that I think is a unique kind of grief.
[8:59]Because it does sort of force you to face your own mortality in a way.
[9:03]If you lose a close contemporary, particularly, and at a young age, you know, as these
[9:08]characters did, it's formative.
[9:10]You know, I did a lot of writing about that character, that sixth, you know, member of
[9:16]this friend group, even though he doesn't appear on any of the pages.
[9:19]I have pages and pages on him because I had to understand what that loss felt like, who
[9:24]he was, how he was the glue that kept having these friends reunite, you know, year after
[9:30]year after year.
[9:31]He was sort of the driving force behind that.
[9:33]I did lose a close friend from college a few years ago to breast cancer.
[9:39]And it is kind of unmooring and it's not something that I think there's natural context
[9:45]for, right?
[9:46]If you lose a parent or a grandparent, you know, like people under, you can say that people
[9:50]kind of can contextualize what that loss is.
[9:53]With friends, we have many friends, you know, some are casual, some are so close.
[9:58]Sometimes they're closer than family.
[10:00]even. And so to lose one, you know, it can really set you a drift, particularly in middle age,
[10:07]where these characters are, you know, I certainly have friends who are 25 years older,
[10:11]I have friends who are 25 years younger, you know, so there's no, there's no deal with when we
[10:16]might, might lose one. And so I thought it was a really sort of rich and fertile ground from,
[10:22]from which to right. It really is. It made me think a lot about those early losses. I had a friend
[10:28]who died in 1995. And so reading this and remembering how much that impacted me and and
[10:36]continues to do so too because you carry it. I think there's something about the marking of time
[10:41]with a contemporary where you reach an age and you automatically think about the age they would
[10:46]have been because you're kind of moving on these now tandem paths. It's, it's, so you did such
[10:53]justice to that because I kept feeling their intensity in that loss and the way that kind of
[10:59]carried them forward. So I, I do want to, I mean, now that we've touched on death, check, then
[11:06]now, I mean, that's done. So that's good. But I want to hear about you are a humor writer. I mean,
[11:13]these are funny books. And that's what I want people to know. And I think people do know that about
[11:18]you by now, especially after the Gunkel, that your books are hilarious. And they're also truly
[11:24]heartfelt humor. Nothing about them feels, you know, sometimes you read it and you think,
[11:28]okay, this was going for the cheap laugh or I saw where this was going. But yours are just so
[11:33]honest. What's your, what's your process and what? How did you find your way into that vein?
[11:38]Is that like your sweet spot, do you think? It is my sweet spot. And or it's certainly,
[11:43]I think what readers have come to expect from me, you know, it's hard enough to make somebody
[11:47]laugh out loud on the page. It's also hard to make them cry on the page. And somehow I keep going
[11:53]for both in one. So I must be a glutton for punishment. You know, I'm not sure. But you know, we said
[11:59]we talked about death, check, you know, the flip side of that coin is living and humor, you know,
[12:04]humor and laughter have always been the tools that have made life joyous and, and, and been the
[12:10]way through even in the more difficult moment. So I do think even in writing about grief that it
[12:15]is impossible to do that without emphasizing laughter. But I do take the craft of it very seriously
[12:24]because sometimes, you know, you can write a scene with the one or two too many jokes and it will,
[12:30]you know, it will work against what you're trying to, you know, accomplish emotionally with the scene.
[12:36]Conversely, if you go too long without letting the reader take a breath with a laugh,
[12:42]you know, it can wait the scene too heavily in the other direction too. So sometimes it really
[12:47]is a sort of line by line carefully crafting the scene so that you're not working against yourself.
[12:54]And that's something I work very hard to do. I think humor, though, in novel format, you know,
[13:00]it's very particular art. You're not writing it tonight, show monologue. It can't be topical,
[13:04]right? Because it takes a long time to write a book and then publishing is a long lead
[13:09]industry. You take another year, year and a half after you're finished the book before anyone
[13:14]reads it. And then you hope your book has a long shelf life too. So you don't want, you want the
[13:18]jokes to be inherent to character and situation. And also, you know, I think those, there are those
[13:27]that say it's really hard to be funny in these politically correct times we're living in. And
[13:32]I don't find that to be true at all. I think there can be kindness and humor. I think if you
[13:39]think it's impossible to be funny now, you might have been mistaken cruelty for humor in the first
[13:44]place. And so, you know, the humor in this book comes from these characters. And even when they get
[13:49]frustrated with each other, you know, it's, there's still an underlying love that's there that
[13:54]hopefully comes across on the page. Yeah, gosh, mistaken humor for cruelty. My goodness. True
[14:01]words were never spoken, especially right now. That's, I think you're exactly right. I have
[14:07]teenagers. So we get to talk about these sorts of things a lot. Right? Where it's like a joke at
[14:12]someone's expense is not a joke. They love that sort of mom wisdom. I mean, they just live for it.
[14:18]Lapping it up all the time. So you can teach, listen, there are those who deserve to have jokes
[14:23]made at their expense, but you always want to make sure you're punching up. What a good way to put it.
[14:28]Yes, punching up. Okay. I'm going to write that down for later. They will like that. And then
[14:34]I'm going to say, let's get them on right now. They love like that. Where are you children?
[14:40]I really, I like hearing about writing humor because I love the idea of being funny on the page.
[14:48]And I think people do not that it's an intentional mess, but I just don't think they often know
[14:54]how tough it is to achieve that. And it's a terrible return on investment. If there are, you know,
[15:00]writers listening to this right now, and you were thinking about writing a comedic novel,
[15:04]I'm just telling you, go be a stand up comedian, go do something. It's just such a terrible return
[15:10]on your investment, right? Because I come up with a great joke. I'm typing away and I laugh and I
[15:14]think, oh, I can't wait. Then I realize, oh, it could be years before anybody reads this. And oh,
[15:19]by the way, I won't be there unless I'm hiding in the bushes outside your house to see if it gets
[15:24]a laugh or not. I just sort of have to trust that it will. It's so true. You're exactly right. You
[15:29]get zero feedback on it. Yeah. I love laughing at my own stuff. And then yeah, sometimes I'll force
[15:35]my husband to read something. And then I kind of awkwardly stand over him. So was it funny and he's
[15:42]like, yeah, hilarious. Good job. I have a couple questions. What is the best part you are married
[15:48]to another writer? What is the best part of being married to another writer? Because I am not,
[15:53]my husband's barely a reader, bless his little heart. But what's the best part of being married
[15:58]to another writer? Well, I'll tell you what is not the best part first, which is which is when you
[16:03]give them something. That was my next question. Okay. We're going to answer this. Okay, you can go
[16:08]first. Yeah, it's giving them a first draft or something. And trying to listen in to see if
[16:13]they do laugh or to see if they do, you know, if it does get a reaction, you know, that that is
[16:17]difficult. You know, the best part of it is I know other writers who assume that being that my
[16:22]being married to a writer would be a nightmare. Okay. And it's, it's not. I mean, we found a way
[16:27]to make it work. Not only am I married to another writer who writes novels and writes very
[16:32]funny novels, we had books come out on the same day this year, which that was something to navigate.
[16:39]But we've been, you know, leaning in and having a lot of fun. I will say, you know, I have a great
[16:43]editor. I have a great agent. I have, you know, by the time a book comes out, I've got a publicity
[16:48]team and a marketing team and there's a team. But the initial parts of drafting, you know, that
[16:53]first draft, particularly, it's a very solitary endeavor novel writing. And it is helpful to have
[17:00]someone else around who understands it, who understands the process. It's a hard job to turn off
[17:06]when it's dinner time. I may still be in my head working something out, not ready to just
[17:12]chat about my day. And so it is helpful to have someone who knows the process. And we will do
[17:18]read each other's work. I think the challenge is there. Is in any relationship is communication,
[17:22]right? So I have to know like what hat to wear that day is he giving me something to read as a spouse,
[17:30]you know, in which case I just want to be encouraging and say keep going. This is great. You've
[17:34]got this. Is it is he coming to me as another writer in which case he might like some critical notes.
[17:39]And then it's then it's in how you how you deliver. So it's all about knowing which hat to wear.
[17:44]But other than that, we're navigating it pretty well. Yeah, I really can see how that would be
[17:49]a gift because you're exactly right. You have an appreciation for what the other person,
[17:54]persons rhythm might be right where my husband is in sales and he travels. So when he's at Hamilton,
[18:01]and I'm at a middle school band concert, it's just really hard to reconcile those two.
[18:05]Yeah. So yeah, I could see that being an advantage, but you're exactly right. You have to know
[18:11]what hat you're wearing. That's just true for married life, I think, right? I don't want a solution
[18:16]to this or no? Yeah. What? So the other thing that people need to know is that you narrowed the audio
[18:22]book for the celebrants. And I loved it. I was so impressed. Tell me about deciding to do that,
[18:29]because I don't feel like that's common for novelists. Tell me how diluted are you that you thought
[18:36]that this would be a good idea? You know, this is the second audio book of mine that I've
[18:40]narrated. I had a wonderful actor, Michael Yuri, who narrated my first two audiobooks. There
[18:45]was something about the gunkle, the first one that I narrated, where I hadn't there was enough overlap
[18:50]between that character and who I am. But I thought, and there was enough of a late in high school
[18:55]theater kid in me still that, you know, was like wanted to shine. So, you know, I thought I wanted to
[19:01]try it. But when I brought it up, the publisher didn't necessarily think it was a good idea. And in
[19:07]fact, I had to audition in order to be able to do it. But once I once I got the go ahead, I was I was
[19:12]boasting to a friend, you know, I'm going to narrate my own audio book. And for the gunkle,
[19:17]this was in, you know, late 2020. And I, the friend said you're going to put an actor out of work
[19:23]during a pandemic. And I thought, Oh, no, what have I done? But sweet Michael Yuri is on a TV series
[19:29]with Harrison Ford now. So I think he's fine. I think he's landed on his feet. Thank you.
[19:34]Good for him. Okay. But for me, you know, writing a novel, it's yours and yours alone for a very
[19:41]long time. And that means I hear, you know, my work in a very specific way. When an actor reads it
[19:47]for an audio book, they're not in your head, they, they put their own spin on it. And by the way,
[19:52]they should. That is an actor's job to interpret the text. And so, you know, for better or for worse,
[19:59]I think.
[20:00]it's, you know, it might be interesting for a reader to hear how it sounds in my head
[20:04]or how I intended it to sound, you know, I've limits on my ability as a performer per
[20:09]say. So maybe it's not 100% but no interesting recording of how it sounded to me as I was
[20:15]writing it. I thought it was fantastic and I was so impressed because I was shocked that
[20:21]you were narrating it. But as I was listening to it, that's exactly how I felt about
[20:25]where I think as a writer, you put so much into expression and I know I read a lot of my stuff
[20:33]out loud to myself over again, especially if I'm stuck. And so the idea that that emphasis
[20:39]can come through and exactly what, you know, you get to say exactly what you meant to say and how
[20:44]you meant to say it in those moments. So I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I will say it's, I don't know
[20:49]that I'll always do it for every book of mind going forward. But, but it has forever changed my
[20:54]process. You know, and I want to mention this, you know, moms don't have time to read, but, you
[20:58]know, I don't know how they would ever have time to write, but I know that there are many
[21:01]incredible writers who are moms and you're all heroes. But taking a moment to read the material
[21:07]out loud will forever be part of my process moving forward because it is, I think it's an invaluable
[21:14]for you just, you just hear it in a different way and it's easier to think how a reader might
[21:19]hear how a reader might interpret it as well. Is that something you figured out with
[21:24]doing the gungal? Was that something okay? Interesting. That's amazing how you learn all of these
[21:31]things along the way, right? I mean, you just wouldn't know until you do it and then you're exactly
[21:35]right. I love there were so many lines I marked in this book. I mean, so many times where I was
[21:41]listening to it and I ran over to my copy to market and I just was, I was so moved by it and
[21:49]I'm excited for people to read it so that I can talk to them about the fullness and all the
[21:53]the details I loved. But I think one thing that you really did a good job of talking about in this
[21:58]book is the illusion of control. And I'm sure that was something that stood out to me because
[22:03]I may be kind of a control freak. I'm not going to say for sure because I mean, it's still up in
[22:10]the air for no one. But I just think when you were talking about the idea that things happen,
[22:18]they're not necessarily remarkable. They're unlucky, right? And I think that was just a really
[22:26]a powerful moment for me where I was thinking about that because I do have this book made me think
[22:32]about death in a very wonderful, holistic, hopeful way. And so I think there was a lot of inspiration
[22:41]there. Is that something that, are you a control guy? Do you like control? Or are you a
[22:47]fly by to see your pants coming out? Listen, I am, I'm probably somewhere between the two. I'm
[22:53]going to say, look, I'm a novelist and not, you know, I don't write television and then I'm sitting
[22:58]in a room with a bunch of other writers. I think that's the control side of me, right? I like to
[23:04]work in a very sort of solitary genre so that every choice is mine. And again, I don't want to
[23:10]undercut. I wrote one of my novels is called The Editor. I, you know, take that as a sign of
[23:16]the esteem in which I hold editors and nothing can be done alone. But I do sort of like having that
[23:22]authorial control in my work. On the flip side, I think in my life then I balance that by being a
[23:29]little bit more easy breezy. Hopefully you can get my husband on the podcast. And if you would agree
[23:38]but, you know, life is about balance. And so I think, I think I'm a little of a
[23:42]column A and a little of a column B. That's a really good way to put it. I like that. And I do have
[23:47]your husband's book next on my TBR. I'm super excited. I can't wait. Yeah. Did you know this plot
[23:54]of the book from the outset? Did you know what it was going to be about the whole time? Like,
[23:58]did you, did you have a sense of the arc before you started or did it come out as you write it?
[24:02]Yes, I had a good sense of the story that I wanted to tell. I had a joke in my head that was
[24:12]four funerals in a wedding kind of. And these are living funerals, right? There's not
[24:16]a boss crash. There's not a massive, we're not putting bodies in the ground. These are funerals that
[24:21]are celebrations of life. But something about that line kind of tickled me. And so that was sort
[24:27]of a driving point to start. That is my, you know, how I approach my craft. I am more
[24:34]of a pantser, as you say in the biz, that sort of fly by the seat of the pants.
[24:38]In that I have the concept, I have a strong beginning. I think, and I know I have a good sense
[24:45]of how it's going to end. It's that middle part that I like to leave room for surprise. Because
[24:51]for me, you know, I think a lot of writers would tell you the hardest part of the job is but
[24:56]in chair. It is like showing up, you know, at the computer to do the actual writing. And I know many
[25:03]writers who are prolific outliners and that works for them. They know every single thing that's
[25:09]going to happen before they start writing a word and, you know, God bless them. But for me,
[25:13]I'm excited to show up for work if I don't know exactly what's happening that day.
[25:18]It makes it more fun for me and this that ability to surprise, hopefully. And so that's sort of
[25:26]how I enjoy working, which doesn't mean I don't go off on some very wrong tangent sometimes and
[25:30]have to backtrack. But it's all part of it's all part of discovery. Yeah. I think that that's so
[25:38]good for people to hear, right? That there's sort of a middle ground because I think we like to
[25:42]categorize ourselves. And I think every writer wants the ironclad process. So how do I get to point
[25:48]B? Yeah. Well, maybe that ties back to my previous answer, right? It's sort of like controlled chaos.
[25:54]It's controlled pantsing. Yeah. That is a really good way to put it controlled pantsing.
[25:59]Let's talk about just real quick. We like we mentioned in the beginning. I want to tie off this
[26:03]literary thread as it were with your editor. So talking about how she has allowed you space to
[26:10]tell your stories, but also has made you a better writer. What's that? How does your relationship
[26:15]work with her overall? Yeah. And I want to say too, like not just the fact that I have an editor.
[26:21]This is the first book of mine where I've employed sensitivity readers only because this is
[26:27]about a group of people, a group of friends and like the friends that I have in real life,
[26:31]they are a diverse group. For instance, one of them is a Japanese woman. I would not
[26:37]write a novel where the sole main character was a Japanese woman. It wouldn't be my place
[26:43]to tell that story. But I have to craft a world that's reflective of the one that we live in. And so
[26:50]that means including diverse people. But I take hopefully a great responsibility to do it
[26:55]correctly. My editor is a huge part of that as well. And I think she is excellent. When you're
[27:03]working with the right editor is because you have a common goal. It's the best version of this
[27:09]book in the author's voice. And so that you're working together to make that happen, a bad
[27:16]editor and not even a bad editor. But if you're paired with the incorrect editor, let's just
[27:20]say that. Sometimes you're working against one another. And I think sometimes we've read books that
[27:28]feel a little strained. And I wonder what's going on behind the scene. The sad part because I do
[27:34]think editors are so incredibly important and invaluable to the process. But their work is kind of
[27:39]invisible when they do it really well. And so they're kind of unsung heroes in a way. And there's
[27:46]no way I'd be able to do what I do without my working relationship with my editor, the great
[27:50]Sally Kim. That's fantastic. Would you ever want to be an editor? It's not my particular skill set.
[27:58]I just, well, here comes the control freak part. So, you know, even in reading my husband's work
[28:04]sometimes, I'm like, it's hard for me not to want to take the pen and start and start rewriting it
[28:08]because I see so much. It was like, I'm inspired by what he does. And then I'm like, oh, I want to run
[28:13]with it now. And I'm like, that's not my place. So I think I would be bad about knowing where my job ends
[28:19]and the authors really need to take over responsibility. So I, you know, I don't know. I might be too,
[28:24]too fast. Did he is too fast as an editor. But who knows? Well, I mean, you never know. But
[28:30]good self awareness, right? Like, you don't want to be the person. I'll tell you what I could definitely
[28:35]not be as a copy editor. They are incredible. The people who go line by line grammatically
[28:41]correcting every single detail and the research that they put in to the, I mean, like, they're
[28:46]truly incredible. One of my favorite reads of the past couple of years is a book called Confessions
[28:51]of a Comic Queen written by Mary Norris, who is the long time copy editor at the New Yorker.
[28:57]And it is part autobiography, part grammar and structural manual. It's very funny. It's not at
[29:06]all dry. Like, you think it might be. And for worth nerds and book nerds, like, it's such a great
[29:11]read. I will be picking that up as well. I will be getting big gay wedding and also
[29:16]Confessions of a Comic Queen. That's very exciting. I love it. I'm an Oxford comma person. So
[29:22]like, I have a t-shirt for it and everything. Oh great. So yeah, this book is right up your alley.
[29:27]Yeah. I can't wait. As soon as you said, I was like, and check one more question for you. So
[29:32]tell me, obviously, you've had such tremendous success, especially with your last couple of
[29:38]books. There's a lot of publicity and excitement. And as I said, it's so well deserved. And I
[29:44]love seeing it. What does writing mean to you separate of all that? What is writing for you?
[29:53]You know, writing is joy. And it is discovery. And it is learning.
[30:00]So I did not publish my first novel until I was 45 years old.
[30:04]I was always one who was jealous of someone who came out
[30:07]of the Iowa Writers Workshop at 25
[30:10]and made a headline making deal.
[30:12]I think what I love so much about writing
[30:15]is that you're never done learning how to do it.
[30:19]You're never done learning things to write about.
[30:22]And publishing is one of the rare industries
[30:25]I think that values life experience
[30:29]and the wisdom that comes with age.
[30:32]I think of two of the biggest success stories
[30:34]in publishing in the past 10 years.
[30:37]Let's say lessons in chemistry by Bonnie Garmas
[30:40]in the past year and where the crawdad
[30:42]sang by Delia Owens, right?
[30:44]These revolutionize publishing a debut writer
[30:48]in her 60s, a debut novelist in her 70s.
[30:52]And I really think that's incredible.
[30:55]I think that's incredible.
[30:56]And it's inspiring to me.
[30:58]And so I know I struggled for years.
[31:02]I have novels that sit in a drawer
[31:04]that I had to write in order to learn how to write.
[31:06]But I think there were years where it felt like
[31:09]I was the last person who didn't give up on myself.
[31:13]And that's what I sort of love about writing.
[31:15]It's something you can do for yourself.
[31:16]Even if you're not published,
[31:18]even if you're not the today show book club pick,
[31:21]even if you're not in New York Times bestseller,
[31:24]but if you believe in yourself and you stick to it
[31:26]and you keep being open to learning about craft,
[31:30]with hard work and time, you can get there.
[31:33]Yeah, that's a beautiful sentiment.
[31:36]And you know who has a great book on that.
[31:38]Very craft is Stephen King.
[31:41]Oh, I'm so happy that we brought it all back around.
[31:45]Well, look at us.
[31:46]I know.
[31:47]I mean, incredible.
[31:48]Do we get some sort of award now?
[31:49]Yes, I'm waiting.
[31:51]Maybe they'll be craving the trophy real quick.
[31:53]Yeah, probably outside in gravy.
[31:55]It's true.
[31:56]Thank you for these minutes.
[31:57]Thank you for this time.
[31:59]Thank you for being a writer.
[32:01]Your books bring me personally.
[32:03]And I know I speak for so many people,
[32:05]but they just bring so much joy and thought
[32:08]and love into the world.
[32:11]And I'm so, so honored that I got to talk to you about it today.
[32:15]Yeah, thank you for this conversation.
[32:17]Thank you.
[32:19]Thanks for listening to this episode
[32:21]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[32:23]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[32:26]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[32:28]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[32:30]and sign up for my virtual book club
[32:32]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[32:35]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound
[32:37]for the Sound Editing.
[32:38]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[32:40]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.