Elysha Chang, A QUITTER'S PARADISE
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Alicia Chang is the author of a Quitters Paradise.
[1:06]This episode was guest hosted by Julie Chavez, a Zippy Books author of the upcoming memoir
[1:12]Everyone But Myself.
[1:14]She's also the host of the podcast Ask a Librarian.
[1:17]Alicia's writing has appeared in Bodega Mag, Fence, Chukyu the Rhumpus, and other publications.
[1:23]An instructor of creative writing Alicia has taught fiction workshops and other courses
[1:26]at Blue Stoop, Kelly Writers House Villanova University and University of Pennsylvania.
[1:31]She has received fellowships and support from the Center for Fiction to Rome Foundation.
[1:34]Kundiman, Kim El Harding Nelson Center, Swatch Art residency in Shanghai, Monson Arts
[1:40]and will up a Bay Air.
[1:41]She holds an MFA from Columbia University School of the Arts and lives in New York.
[1:46]The Quitters Paradise is published by SJP Lit from Zando.
[1:51]That's Sarah Jessica Parker's imprint.
[1:53]Alicia, I am so happy to talk to you today.
[1:56]Welcome to Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[1:58]Thank you for having me.
[2:00]I am so thrilled.
[2:01]Where are you in your whole publication, run up with interviews and all the things have
[2:07]you been doing a bunch yet?
[2:08]Not a lot, but it's definitely been ramping up.
[2:11]So the book comes out June 6 and launches the 7th and also the 15th.
[2:17]So you know, things are really ramping up.
[2:19]I'm saying a lot of things about the book for the first time or things that I hadn't
[2:24]thought of before, which is kind of fun and it's a pleasure to relive the book for
[2:29]you now.
[2:30]Yes.
[2:31]Right.
[2:32]So true early days.
[2:33]Right.
[2:34]You're like, yeah, I'm sure it gets to a point where you're like, oh, I've said this literally
[2:38]one million times.
[2:39]I prefer not to again.
[2:41]That makes sense.
[2:42]You know, you answered my first question for you was what's sort of wonderful in this moment.
[2:48]You're prepping for your debut.
[2:49]We are about 10 days out when we're recording this.
[2:53]So what feels really great for you right now, like what are you loving about it?
[2:57]Oh man, just hearing that people have read it.
[3:00]I mean, you're telling me that you've just finished reading it and, you know, people
[3:06]and having the opportunity to answer questions about it so far has been just kind of surreal.
[3:13]I mean, that's, you know, good and bad.
[3:15]I think it feels very vulnerable, of course, but it does.
[3:19]It's really nice to be able to clarify things about it or rethink things about it that
[3:25]I wrote, you know, some time ago, so that's been, that's been fun.
[3:29]Interesting.
[3:30]I didn't even think about that that, you know, you kind of forget about pieces of it
[3:34]and then people are bringing you back and especially since readers catch and things resonate
[3:40]with them that you wouldn't always expect.
[3:42]Yeah.
[3:43]Exactly.
[3:44]I think, you know, some lines have certainly been quoted to me that I, I'm trying to
[3:48]remember who they're attributed to like the line looks familiar and I remember it, but, you
[3:53]know, which characters said it and in what context, yeah, it's, it's just fun.
[3:58]Yeah.
[3:59]I'm so glad.
[4:00]What's been the toughest about it so far?
[4:02]Is it the vulnerability that you mentioned?
[4:04]I think maybe it's, I think it's hard to come up with the exact or precise answer for
[4:12]the book or for some interpretation of the book.
[4:14]You know, people will send me interview questions or ask me questions and I can think
[4:19]of five, 10 different answers that I think are all correct and that feel really real
[4:24]to me, but I don't know, you know, it depends on the day.
[4:27]And of course, that's why I wrote the book, right?
[4:29]Yes.
[4:30]I knew the answer to the question I wouldn't have had to write a book about it.
[4:33]Yes.
[4:34]So that's been, it's been hard to kind of even answer the question, what is the book
[4:40]about?
[4:41]I, this is a flabbergasting question to me.
[4:44]I wouldn't even start to tell anyone what this book is about.
[4:47]Like, I don't, I don't know.
[4:48]I mean, I finished it.
[4:49]I've read the whole thing.
[4:50]I should say, I should say, I don't know.
[4:52]I don't know.
[4:53]I don't know.
[4:54]Next question.
[4:55]I think that'll really get you far with any interviewers.
[4:57]But you know what's so funny about that is that that is probably my least favorite question.
[5:04]I'm an elementary librarian and the kids ask me all the time, what's this book about?
[5:08]And I'm like, I can't tell you that.
[5:10]And also, even if I've read it, it might be about something to me that it's not about
[5:15]to you.
[5:16]It feels like such a huge question to try and drill down.
[5:21]So I can see how, especially for this book, which I was blown away by, I know I mentioned
[5:29]when we first hopped on, I was so impressed.
[5:32]But yes, I would struggle to say what is this book about because I think that one of my
[5:37]favorite things, so the book we're talking about, I haven't even mentioned the title that
[5:39]just shows you what a great job I'm doing, a quitters paradise, which is an amazing title.
[5:45]We'll come back to that.
[5:46]But I think the thing I wrote down when I was kind of taking notes afterward is that this
[5:53]is a book that will draw readers in, but it also draws readers out.
[5:59]And what I mean by that is it really, it makes you think when I was reading it, I kept
[6:05]thinking this is drawing, I'm drawing things out of myself that I haven't seen before because
[6:11]I'm asking myself different questions.
[6:14]And I really, I loved it.
[6:16]It was so, so well done.
[6:18]Your language is gorgeous and I just, I have so many things to pick your brain about.
[6:25]But yes, I can see how people would quote lines to you because I wrote down a bunch.
[6:29]I mean, like I was reading today and you had in there, how does a dream work?
[6:33]And I just thought, oh my gosh, you could write an entire book just, that's the title
[6:38]of a new book.
[6:39]It's so, this is such a deep, it's a deeply felt and written story.
[6:43]I don't know if that would, if that fully captures it.
[6:46]I mean, I'm even struggling to find the words because it's just so rich.
[6:51]So tell me a little bit for you.
[6:54]What was the experience of writing it like?
[6:56]Like why?
[6:57]So maybe not what is the book about, but what was the motivation for this is the story
[7:02]I want to tell?
[7:03]Yeah, that's a good question.
[7:05]I think I, I started writing really the character or I started at first just trying
[7:13]to write in a voice, but I think was really me trying to separate my voice from, you
[7:21]know, all the voices that I hear, all the influences and also assumptions and expectations.
[7:29]You know, I started writing this book in my 20s.
[7:31]So I think that was just very loud.
[7:33]It's a period of time when you're just things are really saturated.
[7:37]Like it's, you just are a little over saturated, I guess.
[7:42]Yes.
[7:44]So I, I think initially, Eleanor, the first character we meet, Eleanor, Leo really kind
[7:50]of was born out of that, born out of kind of looking for a particular voice that I also
[7:56]wanted to spend time with, you know, that I could, that could sustain me working on a project
[8:01]for however many years that ultimately became.
[8:05]Yeah.
[8:06]So I think for me, one of the things that really made me want to write and keep writing
[8:12]was just keeping myself surprised by what I could produce, and that was certainly in
[8:16]the voice.
[8:17]And yeah, kind of look in there.
[8:20]Interesting.
[8:21]And you are a teacher of writing, correct or professor?
[8:24]Yeah.
[8:25]Are you a professor?
[8:26]Yeah.
[8:27]I've taught creative writing at a couple of universities.
[8:28]Yeah.
[8:29]Universities.
[8:30]Yes.
[8:31]Among them, Villanova, which I've heard of.
[8:32]Yes.
[8:33]Villanova.
[8:34]And Penn, I was living in Philadelphia for a while.
[8:36]Oh, wow.
[8:37]Okay, perfect.
[8:38]So you are a teacher or an instructor, professor of creative writing.
[8:44]So now that you've gone through this whole process and seen sort of the beginnings, where do
[8:49]you think the place to begin is foremost writers?
[8:54]Is it with the voice or with the character or where do you counsel your students to go?
[8:59]Oh, I don't counsel them that way.
[9:03]I think every student, you know, every person comes to writing for very different reasons
[9:08]for football.
[9:09]And then we've also really, very different strengths, very different projects.
[9:14]And I think if I were talking to students, I would probably tell them to kind of just focus
[9:20]on what makes them feel like they're taking the most risks, I think, on the page, right?
[9:25]Like feel like they're doing something really worth writing and kind of dangerous.
[9:31]I don't know.
[9:32]There's not that much to lose or just at the page, so I just won't go crazy.
[9:38]Is that something that you ask yourself or that you focus on taking risks as you write?
[9:43]Yes.
[9:44]I think so.
[9:45]I do try to...
[9:46]I don't know if I'm thinking about it that way when I'm in the process of writing.
[9:50]Sure.
[9:51]I think more that I'll write something and then say, I've read or written this already.
[9:57]This feels really just, it's a lot...
[10:00]of trial and error for me, which I do not recommend
[10:02]as a method of writing.
[10:04]It's very slow and inefficient,
[10:06]but yeah, a lot of it is just writing
[10:08]and thinking, is this me telling the character
[10:11]to do something or do the character really do this?
[10:13]And I'm kind of translating,
[10:15]because if I'm controlling it and telling them to do this,
[10:18]it always kind of falls flat.
[10:19]And it's hard to find what that thing is that they do
[10:24]that I'm writing and yet also surprises me, you know?
[10:29]Interesting.
[10:30]This is amazing to me because I am somewhat risk-averse
[10:34]just in general, that's sort of my personality.
[10:36]So hearing you talk about it,
[10:39]I mean, that you're right though,
[10:41]you have to embrace risk to get novelty.
[10:46]And there's so many things that have been expressed.
[10:51]And so you are pushing past that.
[10:54]That's a really, I'm gonna be thinking about that
[10:57]when I'm not taking risks
[10:58]and I'm writing literally the same thing
[11:00]I've written over and over again.
[11:01]But I'll think of you.
[11:02]Yeah, I mean, we have a lot of those pages.
[11:04]I have plenty of those pages.
[11:07]Well, this goes into what I wanted to ask you to.
[11:10]I think this book, you do such an effective job
[11:13]with the white space, with your page breaks
[11:16]and with the way that the book is even typeset.
[11:20]I mean, it just, it really gives the reader enough space
[11:26]to think about whatever the book is leaving them to think about.
[11:30]So was that an intentional choice for you?
[11:33]Because you also do a really good job
[11:35]of placing the white space, if that makes sense.
[11:38]Because sometimes there are books with a lot of white space,
[11:40]but it's not necessarily intentional,
[11:41]but yours feels very much intentional.
[11:43]So when you were, is that something that happens later
[11:47]on in the process for you?
[11:48]Or do you know when you're writing,
[11:50]oh, that's where a break needs to go?
[11:52]I think a lot of it happened while I was writing
[11:56]because there's these shifting perspectives
[11:59]and shifting timeframes.
[12:01]So I did spend a lot of thought on the ordering, obviously,
[12:05]and then also where things would be broken
[12:08]and where we should take a breath away
[12:10]from a certain character and move somewhere else
[12:13]or a breath away from a certain really charged moment.
[12:17]Yes.
[12:18]But certainly there was also editing after the fact,
[12:21]especially once you see it in galley form
[12:23]or in the PDF form where it's laid out on the pages,
[12:27]it's kind of like a, oh my, that's an insanely long paragraph
[12:30]that I didn't see in the word document.
[12:31]I have to re-ass that.
[12:33]Yeah, you're exactly right to see it actually types
[12:36]that really does change the energy of it
[12:38]and the way, yeah, definitely, which I was surprised by.
[12:41]I just, let's see it in the middle, I guess.
[12:44]That's a really interesting point.
[12:46]I had never thought about books being types
[12:49]that before, just learning more about publishing.
[12:52]And it is just the details and the way
[12:56]in which it impacts the reading experience.
[12:58]It's just incredible.
[12:59]I love those kind of those little random details,
[13:05]which I already said that word.
[13:06]So again, with the novelty and risk, gosh,
[13:09]I'm gonna go buy myself at the source.
[13:11]And the editor in publisher, and yeah,
[13:15]they do so much work on that front right to land every page.
[13:18]I can't even imagine.
[13:19]I know.
[13:20]It does sound like my nightmare a little bit.
[13:22]I'd probably quit about 30 pages and I'm done.
[13:25]I'm really bored of this.
[13:26]I gotta be done.
[13:28]Okay, so I wanna just talk a little bit about Eleanor,
[13:31]the first character we meet.
[13:34]And would you call her the main character in this book?
[13:39]I don't know, I'm undecided.
[13:40]Okay.
[13:41]We talk about her a lot.
[13:42]She starts the book, she ends the book.
[13:43]And you know, it's her POV.
[13:45]So, you know, her first person POV.
[13:48]But I do think it's a book about the family.
[13:51]I really do believe.
[13:52]Yes.
[13:53]Yeah.
[13:54]Okay.
[13:55]That's an interesting one.
[13:55]I really liked how Eleanor is someone for me
[14:01]who feels like makes questionable choices.
[14:05]They're the least.
[14:06]Right, I'm trying to put it delicately.
[14:10]I never wanna give too much away.
[14:13]I would read the book and put it down occasionally
[14:16]and be like, okay, what is she going to do here?
[14:19]So it's interesting to hear you talk about writing
[14:24]and being sure that she was doing
[14:27]what you believed would be true to her character
[14:29]as opposed to what you were putting around
[14:32]like a little marionette.
[14:34]So, I mean, did you start out with a vision
[14:38]of kind of the book ends of the book?
[14:40]Like where you would start an end?
[14:41]Or did you just jump in and see where it took you?
[14:45]Definitely the latter.
[14:46]Okay.
[14:47]Yeah, for me, the process of writing the whole book
[14:51]and also specifically her voice felt very much like a pursuit.
[14:56]I just, there was a lot of information
[14:59]that I felt I couldn't access
[15:01]or was somehow being actively withheld from me.
[15:06]And, you know, I think it's because that ultimately
[15:08]became her character, right?
[15:10]She's very elusive.
[15:11]She's a really slippery person, very evasive
[15:14]and really smart about doing it.
[15:16]I think she can keep pretty much everyone in her life
[15:18]at kind of arm's length.
[15:20]And if that's the case, it was made it difficult for me
[15:23]to, you know, just lay out playing what she thought
[15:26]or felt because that was not true to her character.
[15:29]So that took a lot of, I think, just kind of moving around
[15:34]and that's sort of how the family narratives,
[15:37]that's what they were born out of was kind of initially
[15:40]looking for more access, basically,
[15:43]into this character's smooth movements.
[15:45]Yeah.
[15:46]I'm not assuming that you make the sorts of choices
[15:50]that Eleanor would, but I feel like she's so evasive
[15:54]and are you, are you an evasive person?
[15:58]Well, hard-hitting.
[16:00]I would be here.
[16:03]Well, I'll tell you, I mean, for me,
[16:05]it's so uncomfortable to read about her
[16:07]because I am not that way.
[16:10]And because, but I fear those,
[16:13]or I think about those parts of myself that stay hidden.
[16:17]And so also for me to say, I'm not that way.
[16:22]Well, I'm saying that, but am I really?
[16:25]Or is it just that I choose what I'm showing?
[16:28]You know what I'm saying?
[16:29]Like, I do because the whole,
[16:32]one of the things about Eleanor is that I think
[16:34]she's unclear on what her own personality is like
[16:38]and that she's even doing this.
[16:40]Yes.
[16:40]So I think that part of it is uncomfortable
[16:43]to watch her engage in these patterns, right?
[16:45]These behavior patterns over and over again,
[16:47]that, you know, we certainly see.
[16:50]And I think other characters see,
[16:53]but that she's just not able to,
[16:57]I don't know, understand.
[16:58]So did that ever create discomfort for you
[17:00]and you were writing it?
[17:01]Or is it just like, are you neutral with her
[17:05]or with the writing of the character?
[17:07]And what?
[17:07]Just her evasiveness.
[17:09]And like, do you know what I'm saying?
[17:11]Is there ever like a tension there for you as the writer?
[17:16]Yeah.
[17:17]I was really frustrated.
[17:18]She's very frustrating person.
[17:20]I think frustrated on her behalf,
[17:25]or not on her behalf, probably on other people
[17:27]would be have some in the book.
[17:28]But frustrated in, you know, wanting to know,
[17:31]and I think part of that is, you know,
[17:34]if she were my friend, I was,
[17:37]this I would have treated, obviously,
[17:39]the relationship differently than if she were someone
[17:42]I invented, but yeah.
[17:45]So I think she was pretty frustrating.
[17:48]And for me, that book was frustrating
[17:50]for a lot of years.
[17:51]I'm not gonna kind of sugarcoat that.
[17:52]And I think that was a big part of it
[17:54]was that she was really hard to nail down.
[17:57]What were the other parts?
[17:58]How many years was this that you were working on it?
[18:01]I think I was probably writing it for, I think,
[18:04]maybe six or seven years.
[18:08]Way to go.
[18:09]I'm impressed.
[18:09]And.
[18:11]Are you?
[18:12]Is that what I am?
[18:13]I am.
[18:14]I am someone who gives up after 30 seconds on things.
[18:18]I'm like, this is never gonna work.
[18:19]Yeah, for sure.
[18:21]And then, you know, there were many years also
[18:23]of editing, you know, with my agent,
[18:26]of my editor and obviously waiting to publication.
[18:28]But I think they're writing and many breaks in between,
[18:31]of course, but of course, six years, six, seven years.
[18:34]Wow, amazing.
[18:36]I love hearing about that because this is a crafted novel.
[18:41]I feel like when I read it, I think this is,
[18:44]I mean, it's just like I've said, it's so impressive,
[18:47]but it just, I feel like you are a writer's writer
[18:53]in a lot of ways because you leave so much room in the narrative.
[19:00]And it sounds like because you have taken time,
[19:03]not only literal time, but that just time and intention
[19:08]and depth to really think about what is on the page.
[19:13]I think it really shines through.
[19:15]It's so, I really enjoyed reading it.
[19:18]And I found myself so invested.
[19:22]In all of the characters, but especially with Ellen
[19:26]or mostly because, I mean, and I'm sure this is what I mean
[19:29]about drawing people out.
[19:30]I'm like, gosh, this really shows how controlling I am.
[19:32]Like I still, I want to control her.
[19:36]Be like, can you, can you lock it up for me?
[19:38]Because it's just in me out.
[19:42]It's stressful, right?
[19:45]Please use that as a poll quote somewhere.
[19:47]That's someone that we great.
[19:49]Nobody was so enjoyable.
[19:51]And I love, that's what I mean.
[19:52]Like, this is a thinking person's book.
[19:55]And yet, you could also very much just read it
[19:59]for the beautiful.
[20:00]language or some of the things you put in there. I mean, it was early on in the book, but you said,
[20:05]how could they go about chatting and laughing when they could lose someone they loved at any moment?
[20:09]And sentiments like that are, this book is packed with really perfect sentences. I was,
[20:18]it was a joy to read it. So I'm so glad that it's going to be out in the world and I can see
[20:24]it resonating with so many people. So I wanted to ask you a couple more questions about
[20:30]the science aspect. Are you a science person? Do you like what was because, you know, they're in the
[20:37]world of science and research? So how was that the setting? Yeah, absolutely. I would consider myself
[20:44]interested in scientific research. Certainly, I think when I was younger, I attempted an
[20:50]undergrad degree in neuroscience and immediately discovered that I was not suited for that line
[20:58]of study. I'm interested. Yeah, great. Hey, no early. More information. But I think even knowing that about
[21:08]myself early on, it allowed me to just find a space that I was interested in kind of just not
[21:16]from a work perspective or something that I would be so invested in, but really just out of pleasure
[21:21]that I could read whatever research papers I could understand even. Right, of course. Well,
[21:26]I could read pop science books. I had friends who were able to major in neuroscience and who have
[21:33]been, you know, very good friends of mine who have helped me really engage in all the research
[21:39]of this book. I asked doctors of science now. And yeah, without them, I really would not,
[21:44]I don't think there's any way I could have written those sections. There's so much
[21:49]that I was allowed to see in labs and just ask and re-ask, you know, a friend that I could not do.
[21:57]Yes, that one that I respected that was a stranger. Probably should not have done to friends,
[22:02]but that's just what they get. I mean, hey, that's that's just the privilege of loving you and
[22:09]being your friend. So they're fine. You know, but you did a really good job with it because I was
[22:17]immediately transported. So I took a lot of pre-med classes in college. And so I remember
[22:24]all of them, of course, had labs and the university I went to had a large research budget. So
[22:30]just remembering some of the ins and outs, like labs are just a very singular place and the way
[22:36]that people are there and just their rhythms feel almost removed from the real world in so many
[22:45]ways, especially as it relates to the research. So it really makes for a perfect setting
[22:52]for that reason, I thought. Yeah. I think just coming into honestly any workplace as an outsider
[23:00]where you have no understanding or what or expectation is really exciting because it's just
[23:07]so taken for granted there and people are just going along with what they know and what they've
[23:12]been doing and is very strange to an outsider. And it's fun to just observe and kind of take down
[23:19]all these details. So yeah, I agree. It's a very particular place. Yeah. Well, and what you were just
[23:27]saying now that's so analogous, I think, to seeing into someone else's family. And I know that's
[23:34]something, you know, as you get older when you just, especially if you are in a relationship with
[23:39]someone and you are seeing their family dynamics or whatever, that's how they grew up, that's normal
[23:44]to them. And then you come in and they're like, this is super weird. Like, what are you doing?
[23:49]So I think that same idea where you're exactly right. There's so many things that we take for
[23:54]granted as normal, typical, just the course of every day, whether it's work or the way that we
[24:00]run our lives. And so to really come in with an outsider's eye and a writer's eye, you just catch
[24:06]so much detail. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. I always did think I'd want to be in the CIA,
[24:14]but it didn't work out. I think I'd talk too much. I don't think it's for me, unfortunately.
[24:22]So what is your favorite part just looping back around to the teaching? Since you have established
[24:28]that you don't tell them exactly what to do and I would be a far more controlling and probably
[24:32]an effective teacher as a result, what is your favorite part of it? And especially now that you,
[24:38]I mean, your books about to come out, what's the best part of what you have to offer and what
[24:44]you love to offer budding writers? Oh, that's a really good question. I think a lot of
[24:51]writers, young writers, especially in undergrad. And I was never like this too. I think they're
[24:57]really looking for a guidebook or, you know, very set instructions or advice, you know, full proof
[25:05]advice. And I do try to give some of that just because I know how unsteady the world is at that
[25:13]time. I remember, you know, and sometimes you do just want someone to say, yeah, you should read
[25:19]here, this is a great book for you. Yeah, I didn't think about it or just something kind of concrete,
[25:24]but also making space for and helping them make space for the fact that that's part of the gig,
[25:31]you know, part of the gig is that it's it's very uncertain. It just takes a lot of time
[25:38]and it takes a lot of exploration outward, exploration inward and all that stuff no one else can tell
[25:44]you how to do. And that's, I don't know. I really like being there for a student's journey
[25:54]through that or part of that. I think I just remember really wanting more guidance, you know, when
[26:01]I was younger. And I think a writing class is always such an amazing place to get that because it's
[26:07]so dovetails, you know, not just with your writing craft, but also with your life. And I really like
[26:11]that for a bit. That is so that's such a beautiful way to see it because it is it's such a tricky time
[26:19]when you're that age. And yeah, there's so much exploration that's happening, but also
[26:26]you're kind of inundated by possibility also. So for someone to say, just hold on to this for a while
[26:34]until you figure out the next step is you're right. That is a gift for them. So I'm glad that you're
[26:39]able to provide that and be part of their journey. That is beautiful. Yeah, it's really, really fun.
[26:46]I'm so glad. I know I mentioned it earlier, but before we go, I do want to hear real quick,
[26:51]the title. How did, did you decide on that? Was it decided before? Okay, so it didn't change.
[26:58]No, I decided on that pretty early. Yeah, in the writing process. I think initially,
[27:05]I it's funny. I think a lot of at least writing for me works like this. You start out just thinking,
[27:11]I like the way that sounds. I'm going to keep it around for a little. I'm not sure what it means,
[27:15]right? But I had already written about half the book. So it, I knew it had to do with the book and I
[27:21]just felt really strongly that this was the title, but I could not have said why. I could not
[27:28]really have told you a particular reason. And when I finished the book and you know ask myself,
[27:34]okay, is this title real? Like is just a placeholder? Should I come up with other titles?
[27:39]I looked at it again and understood that it fit quite well and applied to a lot of the characters.
[27:48]You know, we have characters who are ambitious and are striving and and persevering. And I think
[27:57]it's kind of playing or sort of a reminder that for every opportunity, there is just drive,
[28:04]whether it's at work or in a country, anywhere, there are plenty of opportunities to just not do that.
[28:12]Always just quit. Anytime we talk about a place that's a paradise where people are working hard,
[28:18]it means plenty of people have also decided not to, maybe in whatever capacity that means.
[28:25]Yes. And I think that really is kind of, it does encapsulate a lot of the characters,
[28:32]complexities for me. So yes. Also when I got partially into the book and when that line pops up,
[28:40]I thought, I want to go to the Quitters Paradise. Like, maybe we could make an amusement park.
[28:47]The Quitters Paradise. Somebody else would have to build it because I just can be an attendee.
[28:52]I can't be the striver that builds a Quitters Paradise, but I will frequent or set it.
[28:59]I think your, my goodness, I have loved hearing your thoughtful answers to these things.
[29:07]And I think it is wonderful that you have more than one. That's right because I think it's so true
[29:16]to this book. And it feels like it's true to you too. And I think that's a gift. So I can't wait for
[29:23]people to read this book. And then I can't wait. I feel like this would be a great one more plug.
[29:28]I feel like this would be a great book for like a book club to read. Just in terms of, it's very,
[29:34]it's elevated fiction in terms of its prose and its construction. And I think there would be so
[29:41]many good conversations to have about it. I can't wait for someone else to read it so that I can
[29:46]hold them as my conversational hostage and them discuss it with me. It's going to be a pleasure.
[29:52]I won't have friends after this either. That's good. Yeah. Yours will leave you for asking
[29:57]questions about their lab. And mine will be like,
[30:00]I'm not talking about books with you anymore, Julie.
[30:02]Geez.
[30:02]Oh, God.
[30:05]Well, thank you for this time.
[30:07]Thank you for all of the thoughts.
[30:09]And I can't wait to see this book in the world.
[30:12]Thank you so much.
[30:13]It was pleasure to be here.
[30:14]Pleasure to have you.
[30:16]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:20]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[30:24]Books.
[30:25]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:29]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:32]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[30:35]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.