Sara Shepard, PENNY DRAWS A BEST FRIEND

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[1:03]Sarah Shepard is the author of Penny Draw's A Best Friend.

[1:07]This episode is guest hosted by Julie Chavez, who is the podcast host of Ask a Librarian

[1:13]and the author of an upcoming Zippy Books title, Everyone But My Self.

[1:17]Sarah is the number one New York Times best-selling author of the Pretty Little Liar series,

[1:21]The Lion Game Series, The Alysses, The Perfectionists, Reputation, and Safe in My Arms.

[1:27]She graduated from New York University and has an MFA from Brooklyn College.

[1:31]Sarah has also been on this podcast before, where I've had the absolute delight of talking

[1:35]to her.

[1:36]And she even wrote an essay in one of the moms don't have time to anthologies.

[1:41]I'm really happy that she came back on to talk to Julie.

[1:44]Sarah, thanks for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to talk to me about Penny

[1:50]Draw's A Best Friend.

[1:51]I'm so happy you're here.

[1:52]I'm so excited to be here.

[1:54]Thank you.

[1:55]I'm so proud of both of us.

[1:57]We've mounted and surpassed various technological challenges to make this happen.

[2:01]And so I'm so happy we get to talk about your book because I finished reading it just

[2:06]a couple days ago.

[2:07]So I was reading it and it is a middle grade book and I am so in that wheelhouse right

[2:13]now because I'm an elementary librarian and I loved the book.

[2:18]So I'm just thrilled to talk to you about it today because I have tons of questions.

[2:21]Oh, great.

[2:23]Yes, it is perfect for elementary right in that sweet spot of second, third, fourth, fifth

[2:29]grade.

[2:30]Yes.

[2:31]Yes.

[2:32]I was just thinking about that on my way home.

[2:33]I think what I would tell people to is if you know really any second through fifth grader

[2:40]that is a normal child and tends to have concerns and worries, they should read this

[2:46]book.

[2:47]Exactly.

[2:48]That's what's so great about well, why don't you give me first will you just

[2:53]give me the what's Penny draws a best friend about spiel to share with everyone.

[2:57]Sure.

[2:58]So Penny draws a best friend is about a fifth grader named Penny.

[3:03]And she is in many ways just going about her fifth grade life.

[3:09]She's just starting school.

[3:10]She has a best friend named Violet.

[3:12]She has a family, a little brother named Juicebox, you know, parents, she has a dog that

[3:19]she adores, but she tends to get really anxious about a lot of stuff and her teacher at

[3:25]school that she calls her feelings teacher, which is sort of the school counselor.

[3:29]And she talks to her feelings teacher about all of her concerns and some of them silly,

[3:34]some of them not so silly and her feelings teacher is like, you know, her person that

[3:38]she goes to when she's worried about stuff, her feelings teacher told her that some, you

[3:42]know, some people like writing their thought down and their worries down and it makes

[3:46]them a little less scary.

[3:48]So she has started to do that.

[3:50]And she's kind of documenting her fifth grade year, but she didn't want to write deer

[3:54]diary sheets, you know, that seemed a little just not her style.

[3:59]So she decided to write it to her dog, dear Cosmo is the name of her dog.

[4:04]So all the chapters are letters essentially to her dog because she figures her dog isn't

[4:10]going to judge her.

[4:11]Her dog will love her no matter what, no matter whether she's super worried about something

[4:16]that seems so silly or she's, you know, can't remember math facts or, you know, is

[4:23]panicking about something that's cool.

[4:25]Whatever it is, the dog's still going to be her best friend.

[4:27]So although her best friend is not, I mean, the title, it's not really her best friend

[4:32]is not her dog.

[4:33]Right.

[4:34]And he's her animal best friend, but like, it's actually about like, people best friends.

[4:39]Yeah, it just takes her through, you know, her, her, the beginning of her school year.

[4:46]You know, some things that she's concerned about and it's about friendship and, you know,

[4:51]meeting new people and getting over those worries and sometimes not getting over those

[4:55]worries.

[4:56]And yeah, it's just like, it's filled with jokes and silliness.

[5:02]It's not hopefully too heavy handed about mental health or anything like that.

[5:07]It's just like a silly fun book with a lot of adventures.

[5:12]I really cannot say enough good things about this book.

[5:16]Have you ever heard the book Alvin Ho that series?

[5:19]It's another one.

[5:20]Yes.

[5:21]Okay.

[5:22]Yes.

[5:23]This one gave me Alvin Ho vibes because, yeah, that's so great.

[5:25]I didn't even think about that.

[5:26]My son wrote it up one years ago.

[5:29]Yeah.

[5:30]Right.

[5:31]And he has a psychotherapist and he doesn't like her because psycho is in the name like

[5:34]he's concerned about.

[5:35]Right.

[5:36]Right.

[5:37]Right.

[5:38]Yeah.

[5:39]Yeah.

[5:40]Yeah.

[5:41]Alvin Ho is like a go-to recommendation and this will be my next one.

[5:45]I will probably get two or three copies of this for my library and I don't have a lot

[5:50]of multiple copies because I'm kind of weird about it, but I just, because I feel like

[5:53]they get lonely on the shelf, which shows also that I have weird worries just like penny.

[5:57]I understand.

[5:58]Right.

[5:59]So, but I will get multiple copies of this because it's not too heavy handed and because

[6:05]every kid worries.

[6:07]And I remember, I think I just, I have to tell you, I would read this book and I cried

[6:13]a little bit.

[6:14]I laughed out loud, probably 10 times like cackling like a witch.

[6:20]I just, it's so funny.

[6:22]Even the beginning where you talk about McGruff, the crime dog I was dying.

[6:25]I was like, I'm already in love with this because I worried about him.

[6:28]Well, of course, I worried about his messaging.

[6:31]Well, and what's funny is I have a book that I wrote in the second grade called The Girls

[6:35]in the Stranger and it was twins and a guy jumped out of a tree with a knife.

[6:40]He was a stranger and I was thinking, strangers were like the thing when we were growing

[6:46]up.

[6:47]You had to worry about that.

[6:48]Yeah.

[6:49]Oh, I know.

[6:50]I know.

[6:51]It was, it was, they put that into you very early too.

[6:53]Yeah.

[6:54]That and stuff.

[6:55]The strange car rolls up.

[6:57]You don't talk to that person.

[7:00]You do not, they do not have puppies in that car for you.

[7:03]No.

[7:04]They don't have anything good.

[7:05]No, they don't.

[7:06]Yeah.

[7:07]But what I love about this is that, and similar to Alvin Ho, but even even more.

[7:13]So with this one, I love that book and this is what I love about books, especially for

[7:16]elementary schoolers.

[7:17]They all find their little people, whoever those people are.

[7:21]And the thing I like about this one is that I was a lot like Penny.

[7:26]I had a lot of worries when I was younger and I never had a name for it.

[7:31]And I don't think I needed a name for it.

[7:33]I think that anxiety and a lot of these things that we're talking about, it's good.

[7:38]Our kids are growing up with more tools in their toolbox, with more awareness.

[7:42]But at its core, there is just, I didn't need a name so much as I needed to know when

[7:50]it wasn't necessarily productive for me and that it was normal that everybody felt that way.

[7:57]And that's what I loved about this is that Penny's worries go from the everyday to

[8:03]the very unlikely.

[8:05]And I used to be a person that would follow those, you know, those worry trains all the way

[8:10]down the track until we were in a fiery explosion.

[8:14]So I think, and it's just, this book was just so chef's kiss.

[8:19]It's perfect.

[8:20]I can't wait.

[8:21]And I'm so happy.

[8:22]There's going to be a sequel.

[8:23]I just, I really.

[8:24]That's really quite a huge sequel.

[8:26]I'm so excited.

[8:28]Oh, that's good news.

[8:29]Lots of pennies.

[8:30]Yeah, yeah, which is really fun for me.

[8:33]And I was a lot like Penny as well.

[8:36]Yeah.

[8:37]Tell me about that.

[8:38]Yeah.

[8:39]No, I, I worried about all kinds of things.

[8:43]My mom was also a big warrior.

[8:44]So like maybe I got it from her.

[8:47]But yeah, I just, and, but I didn't have besides talking to my mom who, who recognized

[8:56]the anxiety, but also was able to say like that's not, you know, that's, you know, you

[9:01]can talk about it, but like that's not going to happen.

[9:04]Right.

[9:05]Yes.

[9:06]But besides that, like I didn't really talk about it with anybody else.

[9:10]I do feel like kids now are more willing to talk about it, but I didn't sort of think

[9:15]like it was a problem inside myself and everybody else seemed to not worry about anything.

[9:21]And meanwhile, they were probably all worrying and I had no idea, but, you know, from

[9:27]my perspective, it looked like I was the only one kind of panicking.

[9:31]Yeah.

[9:32]So yeah.

[9:33]And I, you know, growing up, you know, then seeing my own kids, who have anxieties about

[9:39]different things, which only got exacerbated by COVID, of course, you know, the uncertainty

[9:48]of that seeing their parents stressed, but also school shutting down and not being able

[9:53]to see their friends, not having their normal schedules and teachers and activities and all

[9:59]of those things.

[10:00]things like I think a lot of kids are suffering from that still.

[10:05]I mean, I think there's still a heightened awareness of just all the scary things out there

[10:09]in the world. And yeah, I just thought it was, you know, it's something that's so

[10:15]near and dear to me anyway. But it's also sort of like, it seems like every child I talk to

[10:20]worries about stuff. So sort of like, well, you know, we need to sort of make that, we need to

[10:27]normalize that a little bit more and and, you know, make it okay and show that everybody's

[10:34]worried. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's sort of where I was coming from. I really like also the ways that

[10:42]I mean, I think too, I was reading this thinking like this just feels so analogous even to my adulthood

[10:48]kind of approach with my worries. I mean, that that was what was so funny to me as I was reading it

[10:54]and I thought, gosh, I'm still penny, right? Where it's just that there are those sides of me that

[11:01]just are there and that learning to be tender with those parts of you, right? That it's okay that

[11:10]that I'm tuned this way, which we could all maybe argue is a little bit on the, a little bit on

[11:16]the tightly wound side, right? But, but I think this idea of like, I can accept that. I can get

[11:24]a cell phone so that I can call my mom and target and track her down as opposed to going down

[11:29]the rabbit hole, which is totally something I would do. Right. She's not trapped under a food display.

[11:36]That was the one I worked. What could have happened? Well, obviously she's trapped under display,

[11:41]like, you know, there's been a, you know, an earthquake and what, yeah, she goes

[11:48]in some interesting directions. She's not cured of her worries. She's not cured by the end of this

[11:54]book, nor is she cured by the end of the series, like that's not the point. And absolutely we,

[12:01]yeah, I'm still maybe the things that I worry about are a little different than what I used to

[12:06]worry about as a kid, but like, there's still sort of like the process is still kind of the thing.

[12:13]But had I had those coping skills earlier, like, it would be just very interesting, you know,

[12:19]just to see when something came up like how what I'd be handling it better now. Maybe, maybe,

[12:27]I don't know. I know. That's something we could worry about. Yeah.

[12:34]No, it's true, but that's what's so perfect about it. And I think I remember my mom telling me,

[12:40]you know, sometime when I was a teenager, Julie, I don't feel, I don't feel my age. I still feel

[12:46]young and sad, like I'm 17. And I remember thinking that is such a weird saying, don't say things

[12:51]like that to me, mom, right? Because you just, right, can't picture your parent as a child. And

[12:56]then now I completely understand that because it's still, we're kind of all those selves and we carry

[13:01]them with us. And so, yeah, those early patterns, but I really, I love also, I think that this

[13:08]would be a really, really great book for parents to read alongside their kids. Because I think

[13:15]it would be such a conversation starter. And you also write really well about parents, like a prior

[13:22]commitment. My mom is a mom. She doesn't have prior commitments. Just things like that. Yeah.

[13:28]Oh, one of my favorite illustrations about the mom is when she kind of loses it one day. And like,

[13:34]she can't get the lid off of a jar. And then she's like, if I find one more toy, in the stairs,

[13:41]I'm thrown it away. I mean, it just like was straight out of things that I say. And I just

[13:46]went laughing to myself as I was drawing it because I was just like, oh my gosh, like,

[13:52]my kids are going to just be like, that's you. But yeah. And that's what that's, I think the

[14:00]part that's really fun. And my editors a lot with the drawings, especially with the mom,

[14:06]they said to like, this is exactly what I say to my kids are like, you know, yeah, so it's one of

[14:11]those fun things. And that's why I think like, you know, you could read it with a first or second

[14:15]grader too. Even if it isn't quite at their reading level, like, yeah, you know, you could read it

[14:20]together. And the jokes are funny. And like, it's not, you know, it captures younger readers'

[14:25]attention too, because it has all the little drawings and, you know, it keeps it fun.

[14:29]Absolutely. I'd also put it in the comp land a little bit for Clementine,

[14:34]if you've ever read Clementine. I know of Clementine, but I have not read Clementine.

[14:38]You'll have to put it on the list. Sarah, Sarah Penny Packer is the author and that it's

[14:42]illustrated by Marla Frasie. Okay. And it's no of Clementine. She's just naughty and she cuts her

[14:50]friends hair and stuff. It's awesome. It's just a great place to start. And she's not naughty.

[14:54]She's, she's good, mischievous. And she has a younger brother, but she only calls him vegetable

[14:59]names. So that made me think of juice box. I was like, yeah, oh, that's so fun. Yeah. Tell me

[15:06]what was, okay, so you have been a doodler for your whole life. So was that fun? Because

[15:14]let's just back up a little bit. You are also the author of Pretty Little Liars,

[15:17]which I think Gary's a friend. Yes. I was dying because I was looking at everything. Is this,

[15:23]is this right? Like, this is the person? So how has the experience been different? And

[15:32]you know, has it been, what's the most fun part of writing Penny? And what was the most fun part

[15:37]of writing Pretty Little Liars? I'd love to hear or those books that are in that genre because you

[15:41]have more. Yeah. I mean, you said it before that, you know, we carried these different

[15:47]selves that we were. And, you know, Penny is, and the humor of Penny and the drawings and all

[15:55]of that is sort of me and that elementary age. Pretty Little Liars was sort of all of the main

[16:00]characters were sort of sort of based on me and other stages of junior high and high school,

[16:08]and a little bit beyond. So it's like, I'm sort of pulling different parts of who I was growing up

[16:15]and different things that I was feeling and different struggles that I was having

[16:19]into each of these book series, which is why, you know, Pretty Little Liars, I love all the books

[16:23]I've written, but Pretty Little Liars and Penny are sort of the most special to me because they're

[16:29]they're sort of the most personal and they're the most, you know, taken from like,

[16:35]you know, Pretty Little Liars feels like my true personality, but also Penny also seems like

[16:40]my true personality. So it's just a different, you know, different time periods into different

[16:46]audiences. So the most fun thing about Penny, well, besides just writing a book for, you know,

[16:53]kids that are my kid's age and about a warrior, it was definitely the drawing because I'm

[17:00]just draw little cartoons and I never, you know, I loved art growing up. I took all of the art

[17:08]classes in high school. I actually thought I was going to be a studio major in good art school,

[17:13]but I don't know. Then I maybe like got really into biology and maybe thought I was going to do

[17:19]that. And so I just like, there were a lot of things that I liked and I didn't do either of those

[17:23]things I ended up being English major, but because I liked reading too, but I always liked art.

[17:29]I always liked drawing. My sister and I were drawing all the time. She's three years younger than me.

[17:33]And we were always drawing characters and illustrating books and making little

[17:39]playmation movies. And we were always doing artistic stuff, but in my career, I never thought that

[17:44]I would get an opportunity to draw. I just was like, these are weird little doodles I draw on

[17:51]this margins of while taking notes for school or in work meetings or really any time.

[17:56]Right. But it's funny because I work with the editors that I worked on with three little

[18:01]layers and they saw me drawing through meetings. We would have that's amazing. And they were

[18:08]kind of like your drawings are really cute. And for years, they were kind of saying to me,

[18:14]you should do something with those little drawings. You should write a middle grade novel

[18:19]with your little drawings. But then I kind of started doing it. And at first they were just like,

[18:25]I would literally just like do it on a piece of paper with a pencil and write pen the words

[18:30]of penning around it. And like, I didn't even have any idea how to lay it out or how it would work.

[18:36]But after writing so many books, it was just this new thing. And it was so much fun to like

[18:40]figure out. This is how it's going to look. This is how the each character is going to look.

[18:46]This is how the book is going to work, you know, with some text and then some art and then,

[18:52]you know, a lot of the artists three panels. But not all of it. And like just kind of

[18:57]figure all of that out. It was it just was like a, a new different thing than just a straight

[19:03]writing book. So it's been a lot of fun. It's a lot of work. Each book has like 300 or so drawings or

[19:10]more or so. It's a lot. But it's a lot of fun. And I'm able to listen to music while I draw and

[19:17]when I write, I can't listen to anything. Yeah. Sometimes I can listen to like reality TV.

[19:25]It just depends. So, you know, I can kind of, yeah, it's it's just different. It's been a lot of fun.

[19:33]It sounds like I know for me and I don't know if this was your experience where when you do

[19:38]something new, especially after having a lot of success in your writing career and you sort of

[19:44]know what you're doing in that area, then to open it up to something new or this new element

[19:49]with the drawing and things like that, it gives you a weird freedom, I think, because you aren't

[19:55]as you don't really know what to expect from yourself and you don't know what the rules are yet.

[20:00]But you don't have to worry about them as much right while right right my expectations were not very high and to everybody I said i'm not an artist.

[20:08]I just draw these little garmic so then it was very fun to just do do it and you realize that I could do it and that like kids found it funny and they find penny cute and penny is you know and hurt and all the friends in the drawing are kind of they are simple.

[20:27]Because I want kids to be able to draw her and all the friends and so there's not much too drawing penny she just there has big eyes and you know hurt arms and legs are sort of sticks and there's just you know there's not that much to it, but that was for the reason and also kind of my artistic ability.

[20:47]I was like I'm not going to know I mean so it kind of worked out I was like well you know and they it's funny because I have books of other convicts that used to draw on and all of the other characters look like that too so you know they are they had a lot of expression.

[21:04]But the rest of their bodies were just sort of stick like the way that you do it, though is amazing like that love I think my favorite are the mad faces.

[21:14]Oh my gosh yeah and again like you know I drew a lot growing up and I do it a lot growing up and I do this with my school presentations but you know I read a lot of different comics growing up and I admired a lot of comic artists and one of my favorite is she's not a kids author.

[21:37]Well, she did run a couple of kids books, I think is Ross Chast draws for the New Yorker and her characters, she doesn't often draw kid, but her characters are always so worried and they are so funny and she wrote.

[21:54]She did write one children's book called Around the Clock and it's just so strange and very much in the sense of humor of penny and but beyond that you know I read a lot of like Calvin and Hobbs and love you know Garfield and all of the like really fun you know comics that every kid read growing up and I love reading that kind of stuff just for the faces and how you could get a story across and.

[22:21]Three little panels totally, I wish I could go back and read Kathy because I remember even Kathy growing up yeah, I think to read it now would be such a different experience.

[22:34]Yeah yeah wow wow off to see if they made a book of those I don't like to yeah, I think they do and I yeah I feel like Kathy's Kathy struggles were probably a little lost on me back then.

[22:46]Well that's what I mean right it's when I was even I mean it's the perennial example but growing up watching the sound of music and then finally what you know one year I watch and I'm like they were Nazis, I see right right oh yeah, I understand now yeah, I wonder how I'm sure you know Kathy I can picture with the coffee mug in the office I'm like I bet that would have different resonance for me now totally oh yeah, oh, I know a lot of the we also got a lot of books of the far side.

[23:16]And I'm sure I didn't get all those jokes know that those were never one else yeah they were always really funny I'm sure there were other things I show yeah I'm trying to think what I should look at mostly like Calvin Hudson guard yeah oh yeah I'm sure I didn't ensure Kathy I didn't really didn't really fully appreciate.

[23:36]No, but we thought we did that's what's so wonderful right right and I look at me remember what she looks like yes yeah pulling it back pulling it back everybody yeah come to the late 80s early 90s with us it's gonna be great it's gonna be great I have a question for you as a writer so I really I mean I think this book obviously comes into conversations with mental health and especially for kids like we talked about the ones who are.

[24:06]careers and I think all children worry but it's just this spectrum of where you're worries and I do want to point out for sure that in the readers or the authors note to the reader if you find that your worries are getting overwhelming or if you find that you can't stop worrying please reach out to an adult you trust.

[24:26]you're getting a dog or other beloved pet might help to or doodling and writing but talking about it with someone and realizing you're okay just as you are helps best of all.

[24:38]And I have to tell you how beautiful and meaningful and honest that is and I just I love that you put that in here and that it's.

[24:49]right up at the front for kids to see because I think it's just there's so much freedom in that that talk to someone what's mentioned was manageable how do we you know letting those things out I just.

[25:01]I'm so glad you did that and when you sat down I guess one question about this before I ask you my other question was that set for you when you thought about penny I mean did you know where you wanted to start with her in her story.

[25:15]So what sort of character she would be okay I didn't know.

[25:22]Really what her plot was going to be I just sort of started drawing I mean right off the bat she was talking to her feelings teacher and you know that I remember the first couple chapters were just.

[25:37]talking about her family and getting lost in target and about the friend and sort of the plot of the friends that she meets and the friend issues that she had came.

[25:48]A little later though it was a little bit organic I mean I just sort of kept going it was it's not how I usually write a book actually because I'm usually more of an outliner especially.

[25:58]The pretty little layers books I outlined you know kind of this is where this is going with penny I just sort of was like who is she and what is she up to.

[26:06]And I just kept writing chapters and drawing pictures of her and then I got to the chapter where and I don't want to give anything away, but she is in this thing called our club and.

[26:17]Well, I guess I could give this part away and her friend file it was her best friend is like not she doesn't want to do it anymore and I don't know why I made that happen I just I don't know.

[26:32]So yeah kind of from there it was like oh maybe that's something, but for a while I just was sort of figure like just following her, but I always knew she would was you know worried about stuff and I always knew that her something in her plot would be about figuring out that that was okay got it.

[26:58]If that makes any sense I didn't know like what it was going to be or what was going to happen yet, but I knew that you know that was going to be sort of her lesson.

[27:11]Is just sort of accepting that about herself and that it's okay you know true friends will accept that in you and you know always have somebody to talk to and all that yeah there's different things in different books but.

[27:25]All related to anxiety mostly yeah, but that was sort of the first one yeah the first I knew that was sort of something she was going to figure out a little bit all the way, but like.

[27:38]yeah absolutely that's how I feel about my own worries right anxiety I'm like I figured out a little bit yeah kind of some days are better than others exactly yeah.

[27:50]Yeah well you can feel that in the book and I think that was a perfect approach for a middle grade book too because there's a normal C to it.

[27:59]That really makes it even more relatable because these are things that happen in kids lives so it's it's something that they will see themselves in and something I saw myself in which I loved.

[28:12]Yeah, I mean it's just cool stories and it's about family stuff and science fairs and.

[28:20]And groups that you don't want to be paired up in and you know taking your little brother to the emergency room and then having to go to your little brothers annoying birthday party, you know the.

[28:33]Chuck E cheese knock off the hate oh and just like fun stuff yeah just like that just every kid yeah it's so it's so true and like the Chuck E's not off really stuck with me too because even.

[28:49]My kids are like I can't I mean I explained to them at one point we came out of there and they were just so grumpy and like all messed up because it's just over stimulated like a toddler or something right it was like they had a hangover after leaving.

[29:04]Chuck E cheese it's just it's such a joyful place okay well I want to ask you such I can't wait to go there again get me some time right I'm going to send you some of the mail it's going to be great.

[29:15]I want to ask you this question so I'm a huge fan of this Esther Pearl game where should we begin and yeah all these questions in them and.

[29:24]I'm not going to ask you the one about your most irrational fear because I I would imagine it might not be true for you but my husband I were playing at the other night and.

[29:32]I asked him and he tells me his answer and I thought I don't I don't even want to bother I feel like all my fears are my most irrational fear like it just doesn't I mean.

[29:40]I could go down that hole for forever but I think to this book something I grew up thinking was normal but later found out wasn't like how did you for you was there a point at which you thought.

[29:53]I'm worrying too much or how did you get to that point for you.

[29:58]I mean I remember.

[30:00]like going to summer camp and writing to my mom not about anything that we did at summer camp,

[30:12]but like all the things that maybe she should be concerned about, like, like, you know,

[30:22]they don't have us taking showers every day. And like, I only went to that, like,

[30:27]I haven't gone to the bathroom yet. You know, like, yes. Should I be like, right about that?

[30:32]And like, I haven't eaten any fruit. And like, I haven't slept that well.

[30:38]That's amazing. I still think of those letters. And I don't even remember her commenting on them,

[30:47]like, when I got home, because she just felt like, did you have fun? And I was like, yeah,

[30:52]it was great. So, but I remember writing them. And I remember being very aware of like,

[31:00]I can't believe I'm doing this, but I need to do it. I need to get my feeling down here. I need to

[31:07]like tell her these things that I'm concerned about. And like, I don't know, maybe she wrote me back

[31:11]just a little week also. She probably didn't even have time to write me back. Yeah. But it was enough

[31:16]for me to just like write them down and like put them on somebody else. Like,

[31:20]in just about this. Yes. But that was sort of when I first was like, other kids are not writing

[31:29]about these things. I was the first time I was like, huh. Okay. And even then she didn't comment on it.

[31:39]Like, she was and that made me feel like maybe she either like is like, oh, she just worried all the

[31:45]time. Like, she didn't think it was particularly out of the ordinary. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[31:50]So the whole thing is very interesting. Yeah. It just sort of what like that was my first time

[31:55]being, okay. Yeah. I'm feeling like this is not something other people do. So that was my first,

[32:03]I'm sure there are many other examples, but that was the first one. I like that one. I probably

[32:08]wasn't like fourth or fifth grade. Very, very concerned about how I was, you know, health wise.

[32:16]Totally. Well. And you need the outsourced those concerns, right? It's like somebody else needs

[32:23]to be concerned about this. Yeah. And I'm going to pass it. And of course, yeah, that's hilarious.

[32:28]I wonder if she got them after you got home. Probably, you know, like, yeah, it's just like, you know,

[32:34]if she's if there's really like alarm bells, show like call the camera for something.

[32:39]You know, I figured she should, you know, I don't know. But I see that in my kids though, like,

[32:46]my son will, he has a phone now. He's in fifth grade. He'll be in his bedroom.

[32:54]And he will call me while we're in bed. He's like, we have some bumps on my arm. And I'm like, okay,

[33:04]like, well, how many thinking there's like, you know, a whole bunch. He's like two.

[33:10]I guess it's a lot. I mean, like last night, it was like, I've drank water, but my mouth is still dry.

[33:16]Oh my god, you're so me. Oh, it's like, just need someone to be like, you're all right.

[33:21]Totally. Yeah. So is there anything worse than having those moments so where you're like,

[33:28]I did this to you. Yeah. I know. I know. Like, I really have moments where I'm like, I think I did this.

[33:36]You know, you know, you know, you're other is your other one. Like, my other son is the same. Like,

[33:42]my other son different, it comes out in different ways. But totally. I think he saw like moments

[33:49]of me panicking when he was quite young. And now he's gotten better, but like, now as a kid

[33:59]has decided that moments like that need that sort of panic in him as well. Okay. Yes.

[34:05]Oh my god. I'm like, I created this problem. We're just doing our best out here.

[34:13]I don't know. I know. I just, and he has gotten better. Yes. But it is, it is very funny.

[34:19]You know, I did tell the boys the other day. I said, you know, you, you have to understand that this

[34:23]is the first time I've ever parented anyone. Right. So I said, the hope is that like,

[34:30]because it was one of those situations where there was a bad decision that was made. And I said,

[34:35]look, everyone makes bad decisions, right? I made bad decisions. But the hope is that I made

[34:40]marginally less than me. Right. Right. Your parents and hopefully you will make marginally less

[34:46]bad decisions. And then, you know, hopefully it gets a little better. And then at some point,

[34:50]someone's going to throw the curve. But we're going to worry about that later. But it is,

[34:53]it's such a bizarre experience. Like, how am I in charge? I know. Were the adults?

[34:59]This feels like a bad plan. I know. I know. This has been so much fun to talk to you. I'm so

[35:08]excited to share this book. I will be sharing it with kids. I mean, I have to say like,

[35:13]Alvin Ho, those sorts of books Clementine, those are my go-to favorites in the library. And this

[35:19]will have a place right next to them. I can't wait to share with that. Please let me know what they

[35:24]please stay in touch and let me know what they, what they think. And they're going to be more,

[35:30]they're going to be more pennies. The second one, actually by the time you're back in school,

[35:35]penny draws, yeah, yeah, penny draws a school play is out in the fall. So there will be two,

[35:43]yeah, there will be two pennies. I can't wait. And there's going to be more than that. But that's,

[35:47]it's really fun that there's going to be a second one. So not only will they get to be the

[35:52]one, but don't get to read the second one too. They like it. And they love a series. They love,

[35:56]and they will all in love with penny. I have no doubt. Oh, good. And her friends, it's so true.

[36:04]Thanks so much for today. Of course. This was so much fun. Thank you.

[36:10]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't

[36:14]forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[36:19]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet

[36:23]lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for

[36:28]the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro

[36:33]and now trim music.