Emi Nietfeld, ACCEPTANCE: A Memoir
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30-minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and
[0:21]memoir.
[0:22]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes.
[0:34]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:58]Enjoy.
[1:03]Emmy Neatfield is the author of Acceptance, a memoir, Emmy's memoir of her journey through
[1:08]foster care and homelessness, interrogating the true meanings of resilience, ambition,
[1:12]and success was written after she graduated from Harvard in 2015.
[1:17]She worked as a software engineer and experience she wrote about in her viral New York Times
[1:21]essay after working at Google, I'll never let myself love a job again.
[1:25]Emmy is passionate about mental health, helping young people navigate their careers and the
[1:29]connection between engineering and creativity.
[1:32]A dynamic sought after speaker, she leads conference keynotes and presents at universities
[1:36]and companies alike.
[1:37]Her writing has appeared or is forthcoming in the Atlantic, Teen Vogue fortune, the information
[1:42]and other publications and has been nominated for the push guard prize and noted in the
[1:46]best American essays.
[1:48]She lives in New York City with her family.
[1:49]Welcome Emmy.
[1:50]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss.
[1:54]Your beautiful memoir, Acceptance.
[1:57]Thank you so much for having me, Zippy.
[1:58]Oh, it's my pleasure.
[2:01]Oh my gosh, first of all, you're a great writer and as you must know, but you are.
[2:05]And second of all, like all that you have been through and that you write about and that
[2:10]you overcame in your teenage years and all of it, it's just amazing.
[2:15]And I really appreciate you sharing all of it and I don't know, it was very, very powerful.
[2:21]Really great.
[2:22]Thank you so much.
[2:23]That means a lot.
[2:24]So tell listeners about your life, your book, why you decided even write a book about
[2:30]your life and what you've forgotten out of that.
[2:33]Yeah, so I started writing Acceptance when I was in high school shortly after I had tried
[2:39]to summarize my childhood and adolescence for these college admissions committees.
[2:45]And that was a really hard thing to sum up in one or two pages.
[2:49]Like a lot of people, I had a dysfunctional family, I grew up in Minnesota.
[2:53]We were evangelical and when I was nine, my parents separated and it threw my family from
[3:02]like a middle class existence really into chaos.
[3:05]Both of my parents had severe mental illnesses that really emerged in the aftermath.
[3:11]And my mom who got full custody struggled with compulsive shopping and hoarding.
[3:16]And so instead of getting help for her problem herself, which, you know, she couldn't even
[3:21]recognize it was a problem, I was medicated.
[3:25]I developed mental health issues.
[3:27]I was hospitalized a bunch of times, eventually went to this locked facility for troubled
[3:32]teenagers before going into foster care and then dealing with homelessness during breaks
[3:38]at an arts boarding school.
[3:40]But the whole time I was really focused on, like, I want to get out of here and college
[3:44]is my escape and my way out.
[3:47]So I write about that journey and kind of this wild system of college admissions that
[3:52]we have in this country where for so many young people, it's like their hope and their
[3:56]dream for a better life and an affordable education.
[4:01]And I ended up getting into Harvard, but it was not exactly what I expected as you might
[4:07]actually expect.
[4:08]Well, I love you have that moment, sort of I would say you're hitting bottom, but there
[4:14]were so many use of bottoms in the trajectory of your story.
[4:17]But you have this one doctor who says, well, what about, have you thought about college
[4:22]or is that your plan?
[4:23]You were in this very wealthy area where everybody was there because you said it was part
[4:29]of almost like the mental illness that came out of the privilege being over, well, maybe
[4:33]you could describe it better.
[4:35]But the doctor there was used to counseling kids who have had every intention of going
[4:40]on to Ivy League schools and all that.
[4:42]And you hadn't really been on that track or thinking about that.
[4:44]And all of a sudden you're like, well, yeah, I do want that.
[4:47]I read all the time.
[4:48]I've memorized the Bible for God's sakes like, yes, I should go to college.
[4:54]And even like when you were just praying that she would ask you again, you know, about college
[4:59]the next time.
[5:00]And then she didn't and just that feeling of like, oh my gosh, I want this person to say
[5:03]this and like why are they not.
[5:05]Anyway, it was amazing.
[5:06]Tell me about that time.
[5:07]Yeah.
[5:08]One of my hospitalizations, I went to eating disorder treatment when I was 13.
[5:13]Actually, I just turned 14 and before that I had been pretty much with other like working
[5:20]class teenagers in psych wards where the doctors were like, you know, do torture animals.
[5:26]Like those were the kinds of questions you would be asked.
[5:29]And it was so shocking to me to walk into this suburban hospital where everyone is through
[5:35]first approximation is like white and wealthy.
[5:38]And I'm white, but I did not feel like I fit in with these people.
[5:41]And then just to be asked this question that really assumes that I had a future and that
[5:47]the ways that I was harming myself, they might not be evidence of my internal badness.
[5:53]Like maybe I was actually good and have potential.
[5:57]And unfortunately readers will know that this moment like it did not really last.
[6:01]It was kind of like a flicker of hope that I spent years chasing afterwards.
[6:07]It really did open up this possibility for me.
[6:11]And I think it shows kind of the power of like, even if you can't either for somebody
[6:15]all the way through the journey, like those small interactions can make such a big difference.
[6:20]So true.
[6:21]Oh my gosh.
[6:22]I had a friend who was an eating disorders unit when we were in high school and then
[6:27]I ended up working at an adolescent and patient unit in college probably as a result
[6:31]of that in part.
[6:32]So I'm very familiar with what the words are like because I was one of those, you know,
[6:37]undergrads who were helping out and your whole system of like rewards and, you know,
[6:43]I spent the summer there and I was just like, oh my gosh, like no one's going to get
[6:46]better here.
[6:47]Like this is not, this is like not where the magic's going to happen.
[6:53]Like this is just another place where they have to figure out how to get through and
[6:57]like where is, how are they going to all get better?
[7:00]Anyway, I don't know.
[7:01]It was so different.
[7:02]It was kind of depressing to be honest with you.
[7:03]So which I know you felt having read your own experience being one of the patients.
[7:09]You know, the one person I felt like I could reach was like a depressed teen who was
[7:14]able to articulate and be like, I'm really depressed.
[7:17]Let's talk as opposed to, you know, a lot of it was, you know, oppositional to find disorder
[7:22]and all of that.
[7:23]Right.
[7:24]And they just, they end up in there because I guess society doesn't know what to do with
[7:27]them.
[7:28]I don't know.
[7:29]Yeah.
[7:30]It's such a big issue and it's finally like 15 years after I went through this stuff.
[7:34]It's finally getting more traction where we look at, you know, how does being institutionalized
[7:39]like affect a teenager.
[7:41]And I was in and locked like facility for nine months that was like very restrictive kind
[7:46]of like a prison, which was where I started studying for standardized tests.
[7:51]And I was like, you know, it seemed impossible to go away to college, but it also seemed
[7:55]impossible to like literally go outside because we were trapped in this place inside for
[8:01]months.
[8:02]And it, you know, has a big impact on people and I'm grateful that for me it made me
[8:06]like so angry and be like, I like, you know, made me want to prove everybody wrong.
[8:12]I'm grateful that that's how I responded because a lot of people don't.
[8:16]Did you stay in touch?
[8:17]I like to this day.
[8:18]Are you in touch with others?
[8:20]You met along the way.
[8:21]I lost touch for a really long time, but then when I was writing acceptance at a certain
[8:25]point, I started interviewing people and it was really amazing to see, you know, so many
[8:32]things that I didn't remember and then also to see how similar experiences like affected
[8:37]us similarly because I think when you go through those places, a big part of it is just
[8:43]feeling really isolated.
[8:45]And so for me, a big part of writing acceptance was to figure out what is the bigger themes
[8:51]that were happening in my life in this story that felt so alone, like lonely.
[8:57]So I was just interviewing somebody from residential treatment the other day for another
[9:01]story I'm writing and it's just, it's wild to see where everybody has gone in life.
[9:07]Wow.
[9:09]Did you feel there was some value?
[9:12]Like, how did you come like, was there where some people helped more than others?
[9:16]Like, where did you come out?
[9:17]That's such a good question.
[9:19]I think that there is value, at least in making sure people stay alive and a lot of
[9:26]people there were really at rock bottom and I know it's big.
[9:29]Now that I'm kind of getting to parenthood myself, it's like I have so much empathy for
[9:34]like the parents who are like, my kid is going to die if I don't help them.
[9:39]And so, and I think that there's a long way to go and also that there's definitely
[9:45]places that are better than others and that are kind of doing the best practices and that
[9:51]should really be like held up and like lauded.
[9:54]At what point in your life did you know this would be a book?
[9:59]When I was seven,
[10:00]Dean, I was like, I want this to be a book.
[10:03]Because, you know, we're talking about the,
[10:05]like the mental health part of it
[10:06]and the treatment part of it,
[10:07]which is certainly a big part of the book.
[10:09]But what was so, so hard for me was to,
[10:12]to try to write this like retrospective,
[10:14]like here's my life and here's what I've been through
[10:18]and then tie it up in this pretty bow.
[10:20]I just felt like it was so dehumanizing and gutting.
[10:24]And I thought there must be thousands of teenagers
[10:27]who have just submitted their college applications
[10:30]who feel exactly the same way.
[10:33]But nobody is talking about this.
[10:35]And nobody is talking about this kind of identity crisis
[10:38]that's happening at just such like a vulnerable time.
[10:42]Yeah.
[10:43]I mean, you say, and I knew that you had said
[10:46]that the college essay had sort of instigated
[10:48]but it's one thing to like have a lot of material
[10:51]and it's another to be like,
[10:52]and actually I'm going to publish this
[10:53]for the entire world.
[10:54]You know, which is crazy.
[10:57]So when you said Harvard was unexpected,
[11:01]can you give listeners a peek at some of the things
[11:04]that were the most unexpected?
[11:06]So when I was like a teenager in Minnesota
[11:11]and especially when I was living with people
[11:13]like my foster parents who thought Michelangelo's
[11:17]David was pornography and who thought like the biggest
[11:22]loser was high art.
[11:24]I just lost myself in fantasies of this place
[11:27]where it would just be filled with bookworms
[11:30]who were all exactly like me and I would totally fit in
[11:33]and everybody would be kind of nerdy and weird.
[11:36]And then I got to campus and I couldn't even recognize
[11:41]the clothes that people were wearing.
[11:43]Like everyone was wearing these weird leather shoes
[11:46]which I learned were called boat shoes
[11:49]because you're supposed to wear them on a boat.
[11:52]And people were just had amazing social skills.
[11:55]They were very polished.
[11:57]And to this day I still really struggle with my classmates.
[12:01]Like it was impossible to tell if anybody liked me.
[12:04]And I had come from this experience
[12:06]of having these like rules and consequences
[12:09]and like really getting in trouble
[12:11]if I didn't do things the way that like
[12:14]the institution told me you have to do it.
[12:16]And then suddenly I'm at this place
[12:18]where it's like you need to be entitled
[12:21]to ask for what you want.
[12:23]And if you just know how to ask the right people
[12:25]like the world is yours.
[12:27]So that was a huge, it was a huge, huge culture shock for me
[12:31]that I, and it's like, and I didn't even expect
[12:33]to be culturally shocked.
[12:34]Like I think that that's really how little I knew about
[12:37]the reality of the Ivy League to not even expect
[12:40]that people would be different than me.
[12:42]Well, maybe it's better.
[12:43]You know, maybe any other honor
[12:45]you would have not tried as hard or whatever.
[12:48]Yeah, you know, yeah, maybe it's a good thing.
[12:50]Yeah.
[12:52]Yeah, if I could give advice to my younger self,
[12:54]I would have read how to win friends
[12:56]and influence people a little earlier.
[12:59]My mother gave that to me by the way
[13:01]as a high school graduation gift.
[13:02]Yes.
[13:03]She was like, you have to read this Del Carnegie,
[13:06]you must read it so important.
[13:07]Did you read it?
[13:08]I started it.
[13:09]I don't know if I finished it.
[13:12]I remember starting it.
[13:13]And I was like, I don't know about this.
[13:16]I don't know.
[13:18]Did you read the whole thing?
[13:19]I don't know.
[13:20]I loved it.
[13:21]I'm sorry.
[13:22]I loved it.
[13:23]I was so charmed by like the titans of industry.
[13:25]And I think also if you're coming from like a dysfunctional family,
[13:29]I think like I had not learned the basic social roles.
[13:33]Like don't be a Debbie Downer and learn people's name.
[13:36]Don't just say like, oh, hey, are you Ben
[13:38]when the guy's name might be David?
[13:41]And so that was just so immensely useful to me.
[13:44]And I hope that if people read acceptance,
[13:47]like maybe they'll pick up some of those tips and tricks too.
[13:49]Like I would love that if a reader wrote to me and was like,
[13:52]oh yeah, I learned how to act at Yale after reading this book.
[13:56]Wow.
[13:57]Well, I actually have an intern downstairs
[13:59]who is going to Yale in the fall of Namil.
[14:02]I'll see what she takes out of that.
[14:04]I'll tell her to write you with her feedback.
[14:08]Congratulations.
[14:11]No, she's doing like a two week school internship.
[14:13]And I was like, can I hang out?
[14:14]And I was like, sure, hang out.
[14:16]You know, why not?
[14:17]Anyway, I'm curious about your history of medication
[14:20]because you detail a lot of meds
[14:23]that you were on at different times, different treatments.
[14:25]And you're pretty emphatic about that you did not
[14:30]necessarily need them and that it was your mother
[14:33]and her sort of warped view of the world
[14:35]and the fact that she presented is so competent.
[14:38]Like why would people doubt her view of reality
[14:41]that ended up having you treated for things
[14:44]you didn't necessarily believe you had
[14:46]and then medicated, which felt like just, you know,
[14:51]another sort of failure of the system, to be honest,
[14:53]as I read it.
[14:55]But after that whole experience, like how do you,
[14:58]what is your view on medication in general
[15:01]or medicating kids and where you stand
[15:03]on medication now for yourself?
[15:05]Yeah, absolutely.
[15:07]So between the ages of 12 and 14,
[15:10]I was prescribed more than a dozen psychiatric drugs
[15:13]in a like 24 month period.
[15:16]And it, I have complicated.
[15:21]It's obviously a very complicated topic.
[15:23]And I recently, as an adult, I went back
[15:26]and I took an antidepressant,
[15:28]which I felt was really helpful for me.
[15:31]And then about nine months ago, I started going off of it
[15:35]like with my doctor's support.
[15:37]And it has been a really, really eye-opening experience,
[15:40]both of how useful it can be
[15:44]and just of how difficult withdrawal can be
[15:48]and how that can make you feel like you're going crazy.
[15:51]That process just in and of itself.
[15:54]And so as I write in the book,
[15:56]like my mom thought I had ADD
[15:58]and so I was prescribed concerta,
[16:01]which is a stimulant medication.
[16:03]I reacted like by panicking
[16:06]and I was given another one.
[16:07]It was even worse.
[16:09]And it kind of started this spiral of like,
[16:12]oh, if this didn't, this medication didn't work,
[16:15]then it indicates some other problem.
[16:19]And it was like two years
[16:21]until I was given like a full ADD assessment.
[16:25]And I wish that this was rarer,
[16:26]but from talking to so many people
[16:29]and doing reporting in this space,
[16:31]unfortunately, it's like really, really common.
[16:34]And, you know, while meds can be super helpful to people,
[16:38]it also can, it's hard.
[16:41]Like once you start taking something,
[16:42]if you have an adverse reaction,
[16:45]it can be really hard to tell like,
[16:46]is this kid freaking out because they are depressed?
[16:50]Or are they just really sensitive to Adderall?
[16:53]Right.
[16:54]Like today, I can't even drink decaf coffee.
[16:57]Like I'm that sensitive to stimulant medication.
[17:00]And so like looking back,
[17:01]it's just really, really sad to me
[17:03]to see how many of this,
[17:07]this things that were happening to me
[17:08]might have just been like a physical reaction.
[17:10]Like not only to having a messed up like home environment
[17:13]and mom dealing with mental illness,
[17:16]but just to the ways that doctors were trying to help.
[17:19]Well, yeah.
[17:21]You write in the book about your dad becoming Michelle.
[17:24]And how at the time,
[17:25]this was like, you said something like,
[17:28]even Oprah hadn't had a transgender guest on at that point.
[17:31]Now, of course, it's much more part of the mainstream
[17:34]and we talk about it a lot.
[17:35]Tell me just how that felt to you at the time
[17:38]and how it contributed to your sense of isolation.
[17:41]My family was very religious, as I mentioned.
[17:44]Like I was a state Bible champion
[17:46]for Bible memorization and fourth grade.
[17:49]And that was also the year that Michelle came out to me.
[17:52]And so, you know, she picked me up one day
[17:55]for my like parochial school,
[17:57]and told me I'm changing my name to Michelle.
[18:00]And people thought that this was like,
[18:03]going to be really, really shocking to me.
[18:05]But I had grown up like my dad was the head of the family,
[18:10]right? Whatever dad says goes.
[18:13]And so I was like in the headspace of like,
[18:17]you know, okay, that's what you say.
[18:19]Like you are Michelle now, right?
[18:20]You use like she, her pronouns, like,
[18:23]and you know, even though the Bible like God made Eve
[18:26]out of Adam's rib, so I was like,
[18:28]there's precedent here.
[18:31]And I think kids are just so much better at accepting
[18:34]stuff like that in some ways than adults
[18:37]because I didn't have this,
[18:38]I don't have all the same ideas that other people had.
[18:42]But it was really hard because people did not have
[18:46]any knowledge about it.
[18:48]And there was either this assumption
[18:50]from people like at church that I was traumatized,
[18:53]that this was really bad for me.
[18:55]And then on the other side,
[18:56]there were people at like the public school
[18:59]that I went to after and people who were really liberal,
[19:02]who were like, you must have a happy family
[19:04]with two smiling mommies.
[19:06]And I was like, that is not the case either.
[19:09]Well, yeah.
[19:10]Well, I don't know, there is a lot.
[19:11]You've gone through a lot.
[19:13]There's just like, it's amazing and impressive
[19:15]and you're so bright.
[19:16]And anyway, where are you taking this whole operation
[19:22]from here?
[19:22]I mean, what are you doing professionally?
[19:24]What are your thoughts on parenting now?
[19:26]All of it, I know you're telling me all of that.
[19:29]Yeah, I have been doing more reporting
[19:32]mostly about inequality, team mental health.
[19:36]And it's been so wonderful to talk to other people
[19:38]and tell other people's stories.
[19:41]And I am also planning to hopefully become a parent
[19:45]soon myself.
[19:46]And I'm sure that I'm gonna have a different perspective
[19:48]on everything I've wrote about as soon as I'm a mom.
[19:52]But I feel really grateful to have had the chance
[19:55]to not only tell my story,
[19:57]but to really figure out how some of the stuff.
[20:00]of like over medication and institutionalization,
[20:03]how that is affecting young people.
[20:06]Where, you know, we're starting to think about it
[20:08]so much more,
[20:09]but I don't think there have been enough stories
[20:11]coming from people who have lived it,
[20:14]who can kind of shine a light on that complexity.
[20:17]So I feel really, really grateful to be able
[20:19]to kind of do that through journalism
[20:22]and through some more essays that I've been working on.
[20:25]Are you thinking about another book?
[20:26]I would love to write another book.
[20:28]Yeah, a lot of my friends are going through
[20:31]like our planning families too.
[20:33]And there's some really, really interesting frontiers
[20:36]of kind of like elective fertility treatment
[20:40]that's happening in Silicon Valley.
[20:41]So it's, yeah, like, yeah,
[20:44]like a lot of sex selection and stuff.
[20:46]Really?
[20:47]So yeah, without giving away too much,
[20:49]it's kind of a 180 from what I've worked on before,
[20:52]but I think it's also very tied up
[20:54]in like these questions of what does it mean
[20:56]to have a child?
[20:57]Like, how do we best take care of our children?
[21:01]Like, what kind of expectations help versus hurt?
[21:04]So I'm just really, really fascinated
[21:06]by that whole world and that whole thought process.
[21:09]Yeah, totally fascinating.
[21:12]Do you worry or maybe worries the wrong way?
[21:14]And I don't mean this to be like offensive in a new way.
[21:17]Like, do you worry that some of the things
[21:20]that the mental illness, their parents are grappled with
[21:24]will be present like in your own children?
[21:27]Yeah, absolutely.
[21:29]And I think it took me a long time to be,
[21:31]to be willing to kind of take that risk.
[21:33]Like, I have people who have schizophrenia
[21:35]on both sides of my family.
[21:37]And, you know, and I think that there's a thing
[21:40]where being a parent is like, is innately so risky,
[21:44]but I have the privilege of having gone to lots
[21:46]and lots of therapy, which either my parents really had.
[21:48]So I'm just like crossing my fingers
[21:51]and hoping that that is enough.
[21:53]You know?
[21:54]Yeah.
[21:55]I think it uses their art treatments that are appropriate
[21:58]for the situations and not just, you know, yeah.
[22:02]I feel like you had like a be-be-be-gun full of,
[22:05]like, treatment, like coming at you.
[22:08]But, you know, the proper treatment by great doctors
[22:11]can really make all the difference in people's lives,
[22:13]obviously, but.
[22:14]Absolutely, yeah.
[22:14]And I married the most level-headed person in the world.
[22:18]Oh.
[22:19]Like, he's truly just so stable.
[22:21]It's really, really amazing.
[22:23]That's really great.
[22:24]Congratulations.
[22:25]Thank you.
[22:27]Well, I mean, thank you so much for coming on
[22:29]and for sharing your soul and your experience
[22:31]and your family and your life and all of it.
[22:34]And your Harvard experience, you know,
[22:36]everything's starting to finish.
[22:38]I'm just really rooting for you.
[22:39]And can't wait to see where you end up.
[22:41]I feel like there's a Pulitzer Prize in your future.
[22:44]And if you win one, you can say that I set this on this podcast
[22:47]in 2023 when you look back at it.
[22:49]Thank you so much, Libby.
[22:50]Thanks for having me.
[22:51]Okay, take care.
[22:53]Bye-bye.
[22:53]Bye.
[22:54]Bye.
[22:55]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[22:57]Don't have time to read books.
[22:59]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[23:01]at Zebi Owens and at Moms.
[23:02]Don't have time to read books.
[23:04]Also, sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[23:06]and sign up for my virtual book club
[23:08]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[23:11]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[23:12]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[23:14]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:16]for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.