David Sedaris, THE BEST OF ME

[1:34]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books. This thirty minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, three hundred and sixty five days a year for about thirty minutes. I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and memoir. Our books are already out now, and you can check it out on zippybooks.com. And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle features. That's at zippymag.com. We have classes at zippyclasses.com. And I recently opened a bookstore in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at 11th Street in Santa Monica. I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings, But this Here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018, and no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing. Enjoy. We are nearing the end of our weekend re releases for summer, but this one from David Sedaris is just a classic after which he wrote me a postcard, which I have framed in my office. It was such a joy to talk to him and wow, what a gentleman. David Sedaris is the author of the books. Let's Explore Diabetes with Owls, Squirrel Seeks Chipmunk, When You Are Engulfed in Flames, Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim, Me Talk Pretty One Day, Holiday on Ice, Naked and Barrel Fever. He's a regular contributor to The New Yorker and BBC Radio four. He currently lives in England. And his latest collection of all of the best essays that he's written is called The Best of Me. David has been nominated for five Grammy Awards for Best Spoken Word and Best Comedy Album. A feature film adaptation of his story, COG, was released after a premiere at the Sundance Film Festival. And he can always be here annually since 2011 on a series of live recordings on the BBC Radio four called Meet David Sedaris. In 2019, he became a regular contributor to CBS Sunday Morning and has his own masterclass, David Sedaris teaches storytelling and humor. There are over 16,000,000 copies of his books in print, and they have been translated into 32 languages. In 2018, he was awarded the Terry Southern Prize for humor, as well as the Medal for Spoken Language from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. In March 2019, he was elected as a member into the American Academy of Arts and Letters. In 2020, the New York Public Library voted Me Talk Pretty One Day one of the 125 most important books of the last a hundred and twenty five years. Welcome to David. Well, thanks for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books, especially to talk about The Best of Me, your latest collection of all time great essays, which is fantastic.

[4:31]David Sedaris: Oh, right. I mean, usually, you know, when a book comes out, I go on a book tour, and it feels like, oh, a book came out. But, you know, because of everything that's going on, I couldn't really go on any kind of a book tour, so I didn't really feel you know, I didn't feel anything. So it's almost like it didn't it didn't happen? Yeah. It's a lot like it didn't happen.

[4:51]Zibby Owens: Well, I'm sorry to hear that. Well, I'm sure you've been entertaining a lot of people as they've been at home even if it doesn't feel that way to you. I don't know. I mean, usually,

[5:00]David Sedaris: I go on these lecture tours and show you know, reading things and you hear their response. But if you don't it's like publishing something, you know, in a magazine now. I mean, I don't have any idea if it works or not. You know? I I never got to hear anybody react to it or not the reactions that I'm used to. Like, I'm not interested in a reaction, like, on Twitter that doesn't interest me, you know, or in the comment section or yeah. That I'm I'm never you've been paying me to look at any of that. I mean, I was looking at something was looking at a book. It was a book that I really enjoyed, an audiobook. I love audiobooks. And William Maxwell, who was an editor at The New Yorker for years and years, I remembered a story that he had in the magazine in 1979, and it came out, I think, in three different installments. And I just couldn't wait for the magazine to come out so I could read more of it. And it's called so long, see you tomorrow. And then I just realized there was an audio recording, and it was him reading it when he was in his eighties, him reading it. And gosh, you know, he coughs sometimes, and his voice is really weak, and it trails off. But it's perf he's a perfect person to read it. You know, he's not overly dramatic. He doesn't do different voices for the characters. And that's the kind of thing drives me crazy. Anyway, it was such a such a a fantastic book and so wonderfully read. So I was kind of shocked, I started looking at the comments and people giving it, like, one star. You know, they got an old man to read it. Well, yeah, that would be the author who read it. And he the story meanders. And it's like he not really. You know? I mean, it goes back and forth between different points of view, but that's not called meandering. And I just couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe how off the mark most of the comments were. And then I thought, you know what? I'm gonna write a comment. And then I thought, no. That's like when calling into talk radio. You know, the second you do it, you become a crazy person. Oh, so that so now you just don't ever read the comments? No. I read I don't read mine. I don't read any comments pertaining to me. But, you know, like, sometimes you go into a store. Like, there's a store that I love to go into. Right? And the people who work there are just I don't know. I guess I think of them as friends, but I think, actually, when you you know, more realistically, I pay them to be my friend. You know? I mean, I'm a customer. Go in there and I buy things, and then I hang out talking to them. Anyway, so I looked on Yelp one day and the customer comments were like, you know, the people who work there are snobs and they follow you around the store and they think they're better than you. And I thought that's that's something you bring into the store with you. You know? Like, if you walk into the store thinking that you're not good enough to be there, that's how you're gonna feel. But the people who work there are fantastic. I mean, I don't so as I you know, with any comments, half of it is stuff that people are bringing in with it's baggage they're bringing in with them. You know, something they're bringing into It's the story. I've been watching that Friendly Boots show on Netflix, Pretend It's a City No. I haven't. Netflix. Well, it's Martin Scorsese, and he's just kinda following around while she talks. And this woman in the New York Times wrote, like, you know, a negative review of it. But at one point, Friendly Boots says, oh, you know, now there's a tenement museum. I mean, what's in there? Tuberculosis? And so this woman of the times writes, you know, I went through I brought my children there. And they were it was a group of kids sitting there and looking at realizing that a dozen peep in a space like that. And so I don't think she's very funny. And it's like, oh, come on. That's just what's in the museum? Tuberculosis? That's just funny. Yeah. Like, just but it was a situation where I think Fran Lebowitz had really accurately made fun of the woman who was writing this article. Interesting. You know, like, sometimes somebody just but sometimes somebody makes fun of you, and you think, wow. You did a great job making fun you. Have to hand it to you. He did a really great job making fun of me. And, you know, even though it hurts or something, you know, you have to think, wow. Well done.

[9:41]Zibby Owens: I have not actually thought about things that way. I think I'll I'll have to change my point of view. Why not? I mean, I think you're right. You have to find the humor in everything, which is obviously something that you take pretty seriously.

[9:54]David Sedaris: Well, I mean, I don't look for it, you know, in what I read necessarily.

[9:59]Zibby Owens: Like, I don't demand that of something that I read that it be fun. Right. Well, that's good. You know, I'm always happy to laugh. But you also in your writing, you don't only talk about funny stuff. You talk about serious I mean, you you are able to put a little bit of relatable humor into the saddest of stories. And when you wrote about your sister's suicide, for example, and you and the loss of your mother, for instance, and how you used to go to your home in North Carolina or you rented a cottage or something and you didn't come the year that she died and you made a joke like, well, it was really because she was the one who paid for it, not because we didn't wanna go. I mean, it's like, how do you find these little nuggets of of relatable humor when you're really going through lots of loss? And I think especially now, people are really longing for some humor in the face of this global sense of loss.

[10:49]David Sedaris: Oh, I don't know. I mean, if I'm gonna be reading something in front of an audience, I wouldn't want there to be no laughter. I mean, I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in I mean, there are people who do write that way. And, you know, Joan Gideon probably doesn't get a lot of laughs, you know, when she does a reading, but I'd be right there on the first row happy to hear her. You know? But for me personally, that doesn't interest me. One of the things that I'm reading well, what I the book I'm reading now is the new George Saunders book. Mhmm. A swim in the pond in the rain. Right? How is it? Well, he it's about writing, and it's sort of like a course. It's almost like a he takes, like, five Russian writers and takes short stories of theirs. And, you know, the short stories are there, and then he asks questions about the short stories, and then kind of it's there's a lecture of his about the short story. But then he talks about his own writing as well. And I thought it was so true, and I thought it applied to everyone's writing is that, you know, if your talent was a hunting dog, you know, you send it out to find a beautiful pheasant, and it comes back with the lower half of a Barbie doll. And you think this is what my writing is. You know, like, my writing is the lower half of a Barbie doll? And it's like, yeah. That's because it's who you are, and it's what you're interested in. And, you know, so you might start off trying to be this person or that person, but after a while, you realize, you know, that you're never gonna be John Didion. And, you know, maybe you could imitate her sentence structure, and maybe you could fool a beginning writer, you know, that that would that didn't pass something off as the beginning of a George of a John Didion thing. But it's not you, and it's never gonna be you. And that this is actually who you are. This is what you're interested in, and this is what you write like. You know? And that's the beginning of your life as a mature writer. It is just sort of not discovering who you are, but accepting who you are. Well,

[13:06]Zibby Owens: also accepting it and then putting it into words, which is can be a challenge, I think, for some people. I mean, I think some people think they have to write a certain way or if it's not literary enough for, you know, for what you were saying. Like, when did you realize that you were able to put who you were as a person onto the page? You know, when I was, like, 27.

[13:26]David Sedaris: I mean, I'd been writing for seven years by that point, but I think when I was 27, I kind of accepted myself as the writer that I am. And I thought, okay. You know, there's no point in anymore in trying to be anybody else. This is who I am, and this is what I'm interested in, and this is what I sound like. And I'll try to improve the writing of it. You know, I'll try to improve my craft and try to tighten things up and try to make the word by word writing better, but this seems to be who I am. I remember when when I was I just moved to Paris and David Remnick took over at the New Yorker. And then he came to Paris and met with me, and he asked me if I would write for the magazine. And I said, I don't I don't I mean, I've had some shouts and murmurs in there, but that was all. And I said, I don't think I have a New Yorker essay in me. And he said, I'll be the judge of that. I'll be the judge of what's a New Yorker essay. Because when I sat there and I tried to think, I am writing a New Yorker essay, I I just froze. And so we've kept it that way. You know? I send them everything I write, and they decide what's a New Yorker essay. I don't have a clue. I mean, if it has the word content in it, it's probably not a New Yorker essay. Do know what mean? But other than that, I don't I really don't have a clue.

[14:55]Zibby Owens: Wow. And how I know your whole life, you've been very open. Well, maybe not your whole life. Maybe since age 27. You're just super open about your family and your relationship and all the things that come in and out of your mind and just inside and out. How does everyone around you feel about that? And how did you get up the if I don't know if it's courage or what just to be able to say, you know what? I'm gonna just write about all these people. Well, I mean, when I write about something in my family, I give it to them first, and I run it by them. Mhmm. Not my father because he's 97,

[15:30]David Sedaris: and I always figure he'll be dead by the time the book comes out, you know, or the article comes out or, you know, so why bother him with it? But everybody else will run it by them first. I mean, my brother lately, you know, has a lot of stuff he doesn't want people knowing. And Hugh had said to me a while ago, my boyfriend Hugh, he said, well, you need to write that anyway. And it's like, no. That's crossing the line. You know? I mean, if he doesn't want people knowing those things, I can't. Mhmm. I mean, why would I destroy my relationship over that? You know? I'll just wait till he dies.

[16:08]Zibby Owens: I feel like you might have to be a little worried to be a part of your family these days. You're just sitting there waiting for people to drop over. Yeah. I

[16:16]David Sedaris: kind of am. I mean, they cough and, you know, I come on the edge of my cheek. That must make that must make Thanksgiving lots of fun. But I don't know. There's so much fake writing about family. You know? So often, I just don't believe it. I just on television, I rarely believe a family. Rarely. You know? I love you, bro. I got your back, sis. Like, I just want nobody talks like that or nobody who I wanna spend any time would ever talk like that. I'm I don't remember. I don't think I've ever told anyone in my family that I love something. Why would I do that? I mean, to say it on the phone or to say, you know, Christmas, thank you for the gift. You know? But the greatest gift is your love. Like, I'm I I think I show it, but I don't I just don't I don't know. I have a really hard time believing it when somebody says it. Are you the You know? Are you the only one who doesn't say I love you and your family, or does nobody say I love you? Nobody does it. Nobody. I mean, no. I mean, you might put it at the end of a letter or an email or something. Love. You know? But no. I mean, would there be no point? We would just laugh at I mean, if if my sister Amy said I love you, I would laugh at her. And and I would hope she would do the same to me if I said it to her, which just doesn't you know, the thought like, my sister went to LA the other day. Right? She flew to Los Angeles. And if her plane had gone down, I would not think, I never told her I loved her. Like, that would never occur to me. I mean, I showered her with Christmas presents. Right? So that's I mean, if her plan went down and I hadn't gotten her anything for Christmas, yeah, I'd feel bad. But to to to think, oh, I never said I loved her. It sounds like so love is taking the form of of Christmas gifts. Well, yeah, you show you love somebody. You don't have to you don't have to say it if you showed it. Okay.

[18:27]Zibby Owens: It's fine. I'm not I'm not being in any way critical. I was just asking.

[18:32]David Sedaris: No. I mean, no. I feel like it's the same with children. My parents never said they loved us ever. I mean and we just would have thought, okay. What do you want? If they had said it, we just would have thought, what is this? Do you what do you want? You know, you're manipulating me, but why?

[18:51]Zibby Owens: That's what we would have thought. When my grandmother had dementia right before she passed away, my uncles and my dad were all together with her. And one uncle said to my dad, you know, how is she? And she said, well, she told me how much she loved me. And they were like, oh, no. She must not be doing well at all. So I think they can probably relate to that environment. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with Ethical Factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zippy.

[22:02]Zibby Owens: Wow. Well, in terms of your writing, how much of this year I mean, obviously, you're always thinking and reflecting on all sorts of funny stuff or just the way the world works and everything. How often do you sit down to write?

[22:14]David Sedaris: And how often do you write, like, just for yourself versus with an eye towards publishing it somewhere? I write every day. You know? Every day, I get up and I go write to my desk and I write. And I write probably from ten until, like, one or 01:30, and then I go back to my desk at 08:00 until 09:30, and then I have dinner. You know, I just spent a week working on something that just came to nothing. You know? Just fell apart. It just disintegrated. And I think when I was younger, I would have thought, well, that line is funny, and that line is funny, and then tried to build a scaffold around those two funny lines. But, you know, now I'm just old enough to admit defeat, and then I moved on to something else. You know? I moved on to something else. It's not for anything, really. I mean I mean, I don't I don't agree to write you know, like, my agent will approach me and then say, like, recently, she said of The Guardian, you know, the magazine, the newspaper in England, They want you to write a thousand words on the subject of home. And I said, well, let me give me a few days and let me see if it appeals to to me. Because I don't wanna say yes and then be stuck. I'd I'd rather just write it and then see if that's the thing that fell apart. You know? So I started on it. I mean, I guess I could just take a different angle, but the deadline's already passed. And so I just thought, I'll just leave it behind and move on to something else. I mean, I don't expect everything to work. I mean, I'd like for it to, but sometimes I get bored with things. You know? I just and I abandon them because of that. I I don't destroy the file. I mean, I keep it. Sometimes a couple years from now, you turn back, and then you think, oh, that's what this is all about, or, oh, it's easy. Why didn't I see earlier how how to fix this? But, you know, I don't know who wrote that. You know, you work every day without hope. No. Or without expect not without hope, but without expectation or without you know, that's probably a rule. You should never quote a phrase when you can't remember the two most important words in it.

[24:37]Zibby Owens: But That's right.

[24:39]David Sedaris: And there was an interesting thing too that George Saunders said in his book that if you sat down to write a story about two dogs slacking, you're gonna write a story about two dogs slacking. You know? And sometimes it's nice to you set out to write about something, and then you realize in the second paragraph, oh, look. I'm going over here now. And I just you know, you can either try to rein it back and write about the two dogs fucking where you can just see, oh, what's over here? I'm gonna follow myself over here because maybe over here, there's a much richer

[25:11]Zibby Owens: subject. I don't know if you've seen there's a new movie out called Our Friend, and it's based on the National Magazine Award winning article by Matt Teague called The Friend. And in it, he writes about losing his wife. But the article ends up becoming about the friend. And in the movie, at least, when they're talking about it, he says, well, I thought that you were writing all this time about Nicole. And he said, so did I. Right? But the whole point is that it became all about the friend,

[25:37]David Sedaris: and that's not what he even intended to do. Yeah. I mean, I imagine the libraries are full of books, you know, that the author didn't intend to write. I don't like to I mean, I I often feel like if I'm gonna write about, you know, a specific incident, sometimes I just feel like I'm you know, you gotta force somebody into the car, and you gotta get them over there, and then you gotta force them over here. And then, like, I'm moving pieces rather than following where the story goes, if that makes any sense. Yeah. Yeah. Mean, and it's interesting because you're writing nonfiction. You know? But there's a way that it can still be like a process of discovering. There's a way that you can be telling the story you did you know, you wind up telling a story you didn't mean to tell. Mhmm. You know? Like, there's a story in Best of Me about my sister Tiffany, the one who committed suicide. And I said in the story that the last time I saw her, I was in Boston, and I was at Symphony Hall, I was doing a show. And she showed up there, and I had them close the door in her face. I did I didn't allow her into the backstage area where I was. And I did not mean to put that in the story because that makes me look really bad. But the second that it was on paper, it seemed false not to include it. Mhmm. I seemed like a phony for leaving it out. You know? Even though nobody would know but me, you know, if I'd left it out, nobody would have said, oh, yeah. What about the time? Because, like, five people knew about that. You know? Mhmm. But once I'd put it in the essay, then I couldn't. It revealed, like, a truth about myself that, a, I thought made the story more honest and that made the story more honest and therefore more believable. You know? I mean, because I knew that there were gonna be a lot of people out there who'd be like, yeah. That's what I give to somebody or yeah, I would do the same thing. I mean, my understanding is that there were even more people, of course, who were like, you're a monster or, you know, I hate you. You're a terrible person. But, you know, when they get older, they'll maybe see it differently.

[27:51]Zibby Owens: Well, that was definitely my favorite essay in the book. So whatever you did, it worked. I know you've this whole a lot of this talk has been about things that will help other writers. But if you had to drill down through some of the things you've learned to a piece or two of advice, and I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but I have to ask again. What advice would you give to aspiring authors?

[28:14]David Sedaris: Well, not to mistake publishing for writing. You know, they're two different things. Not to feel like a you know, I always remember this this woman who was a friend of mine, and she was older than me. And she wasn't in the arts in any way, but we were close friends. And I remember I I moved to New York City, and she wrote me a letter shortly after I arrived. And she said, look. I'm just telling you this is a friend. You need to quit writing. You you're never gonna make it, and you need for your own good. You need to find a career before it's too late. Find a career and stick to it. You know? And by that time, I'd been writing every day for, like, I don't know, fourteen, fifteen years. And what was interesting to me about it was that she didn't understand that I could never quit. I mean, regardless of whether I ever got published or not, that didn't have anything to do with writing. You know? That's not writing. That's publishing. And those are two different things. Right? I mean, I went to art school and some of the best artists who I ever met never had a show, not interested in it. Their work is just private, and they do it get up every single day, and they paint. And it's not they're not interested in going to parties where artists might be. They're not interested in pushing their work on galleries. They're not interested in promoting themselves in any way. All they care about is the work and the work is amazing to me. Publishing isn't writing. You know, when people are like, if I don't get published by the time I'm 25 or by the time I'm 30, I'm gonna quit. Well, then quit now because you're not you know, do know what I mean? You're not a real writer if that's your attitude. Mhmm. So I think because I do meet a lot of people when I go on tour who you know, I'll do a book signing and somebody will come up and they'll say, you know, here's some short stories I wrote, and I'd love to for you to read them and you know, because I really wanna get them published. And I I never would have done that. Never in a thousand years would I have done that. Mhmm. I mean, it's a tricky thing to try to convey, but, you know, people like to help other people. They really like it. But if you force yourself on somebody, you're denying them the opportunity for it to be their idea to help you. And I know that sounds very kumbaya. Like, how are people even supposed to know that I you know? But trust me. I mean, pushing yourself on people and hanging out and trying to meet somebody who works as a publicist or trying to intentionally befriend someone who's an editor at a magazine, that's not the way to do it. All that time you spend scheming and stuff, you you spend that time working and writing. And I don't know. It works out. I don't I mean, every it's like with every writer I know. I I I don't know. It just works out. I don't I don't know a single person who, you know, bullied people or or passed their work onto strangers and, you know, book signings or mailed their manuscripts to, you know, a published writer saying, can you help me get this published? I I don't know a single person who took that path and had it work. So, I mean, the the important thing just is just to work, and that's what you care about. And then the rest of it just comes if it's supposed to. And, again, I know that sounds like kumbaya. But all I ever know is what worked for me. So when people write me and ask me, like, I never gave anything to anybody. Like, I never sent a story to a magazine. I never asked anybody. You know? I I I was in college, and I read something in class, and then somebody said, oh, we I'm having a happening at my loft when you read something this Saturday at my loft. And so I did, and then somebody said, oh, I'm having a much better happening at my loft in two weeks when you read something there. And then somebody said, oh, I do put together this little variety show when you read something there. And and it just one thing kind of led to another, but I'm I never asked anybody, can I read? Can I take part in this? I just waited for them to ask me. And and I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I mean, it also helps to be, you know, to be the best. I mean, to be I mean, I don't maybe not the best, but, I mean, to care. You know? I can't tell you how many readings I went to, and then people would just act like they were just had been mowing the lawn, and then somebody said, you gotta be on stage in five minutes. And they would, you know, get up there, and they would be dressed like they'd been mowing their lawn, and they would say, well, I don't know what to read. Like, should I read this, or should I be I and would sit in the audience, and I would think, how do you how do you not know what you're gonna read? Like, it's you're disrespecting us as an audience. You're disrespecting us by not being prepared. And I guess I just learned so much by sitting in an audience and realizing, oh, if somebody is late, this is how it makes you feel. Or if somebody goes on too long, this is how it makes you feel. Because I think a lot of people think their feelings are specific to them, and they're not. Like, 98% of the people feel the same way about the same things. You know? Yeah. Like so so when people get up there and they say I mean, I can't tell you how many readings I've done. As I mean, in as a grown up, like, as a professional. Right? Like, at Lincoln Center. Right? So they say, you know, there's something at Lincoln Center called reading or learning. It's this big thing they have at Lincoln Center every year, and they invite, like, eight or nine authors, and it's a black tie event, literacy volunteers. And it's a black tie event, and the audience is just in tuxedos and ball gowns. They have you know, they say to us, okay. Ten minutes. You read for ten minutes. And you're up there with people, you know, who all who have written, like, a half dozen books at least. Right? And the time I did it, the first person went on for forty five minutes. You know? The next person went on for half an hour, and they were up there thinking, well, people wanna hear me for forty five minutes. Right? Because I wrote the definitive biography of LBJ. So and I'm sitting I'm the last to go on, so I'm paying for everybody's tardiness. The audience and I'm sitting there, and I'm the only one up there who's realizing, okay. The audience had drinks before the thing. They're asleep. I mean, they're literally every 80% of the men in this audience are asleep by now. You know? And they were. And I was the only one who kept it to ten minutes, and I had timed it and worked on it and cut it down so it was exactly ten minutes long. And Oprah was there because they were giving an award to Oprah. And then Oprah came up on stage at the end of it to accept her reward, and I was the only author that she talked to. And that's because I was ten minutes long. I mean, why didn't Oprah talk to me? Well, because you went on for twenty three minutes. That's why Oprah didn't talk to you.

[36:11]Zibby Owens: Mental note,

[36:13]David Sedaris: stick to the time limit, and Oprah will talk to you. Good to know. But I think it's just being aware in all sorts of situations. You know? Just when you're reading something, when you realize, oh, I stopped listening. I stopped re I I'm skimming. And then to ask yourself, why am I skimming? Right? Why did I stop paying attention? And to realize that if you do that same thing in your own work right? So if like, nothing to me is worse than a dream sequence. Nothing. Right? And so if I so what? If I write a dream sequence and I'm gonna think, well, mine is interesting. No. It's not. It's as boring as everyone else's. It's a dream sequence. So if I were a reader, I'd be skimming over my dream sequence. And that's a good thing about reading out loud for an audience is because the audience tells you, you're boring me right now. They're not they don't say it, but you can feel it in the room. And if you're, like, in a 2,000 seat hall, you see that little door you see the doors in the back of the theater open. That's people going out. They're going out to the concession stand. They're going out to the bathroom. And you don't go out to the bathroom like if something's exciting, then you'll hold it. Right? But and then you read it the second night, you realize, oh, people are going to the bathroom and leaving at the exact same time in the story. I bet it's, you know, it's boring, and I need to work on that part of the story. And then you go back to your hotel room and you rewrite it and you read it the next night, and people are, you know, remaining their seats if you're lucky. And it's the same thing with an editor. Like, if you have a good editor and you don't listen to your editor because that happened to me recently. I I wrote something, and I I didn't I wrote something for I don't even remember what it was for. It was my agent approached me and said, oh, can you write about this? And the subject interested me, so I wrote wrote it. And then the editor got back to me, and I just saw all these queries, right, and all these changes that she wanted. And then it my first thought was like, you know what? Go to hell. This is like do know what I mean? $800? I'm not doing this. Just forget it. And then I read her notes, and it was like, wow. These are really good notes, and she's a good editor. And all editors, they don't want the same thing. They all want to make it better. Right? And then I was really I don't know. I was really super grateful I didn't act like a baby because and this is an editor. I'd love to work with her again. Amazing.

[38:56]Zibby Owens: Well, David, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. I love your advice and all of it. And I'm gonna think about the salespeople in the stores who are not my friends, who are nice to me because I'm paying them too. Anyway but thank you for all of your time. It's really generous of you. And I really appreciate it and have been a fan for so long. So so thank you. Oh, thank you. Goodbye. Goodbye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.