Christine Pride and Jo Piazza, YOU WERE ALWAYS MINE
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[1:03]Piazza and Christine Pride are co-authors of You Are Always Mine, a novel.
[1:08]This episode has been guest hosted by Julie Chavez, host of the podcast Ask a Librarian,
[1:14]and author of the upcoming Zippy Books title, everyone but myself.
[1:18]Jio Piazza is a bestselling author, podcast creator, and award-winning journalist.
[1:23]She is the national and international bestselling author of We Are Not Like Them, Charlotte
[1:27]Walsh likes to win, the knockoff, and how to be married.
[1:30]Her work has been published in ten languages in twelve countries, and four of her books
[1:34]have been optioned for film and television.
[1:36]A former editor, columnist and travel writer, her work has also appeared in the Wall Street
[1:40]Journal, New York Times, New York Magazine, Glamour, Elle Time, Marie Claire, the Daily
[1:44]Beast, and Slate.
[1:45]She holds an undergraduate degree from the University of Pennsylvania in economics and
[1:48]communication, a master's in journalism from Columbia University, and a master's in religious
[1:53]studies from New York University.
[1:55]She lives in Philly with her husband, Nick Astar, and three feral children.
[1:59]Christine Pride is a writer, editor, and longtime publishing veteran.
[2:02]She has held editorial posts at many different trade imprints, including Double Day, Broadway,
[2:07]Crown, Hyperion, and Simon and Schuster.
[2:09]As an editor, Christine has published a range of books with a special emphasis on inspirational
[2:14]stories and memoirs, including numerous New York Times bestsellers.
[2:17]As a freelance editorial consultant, she does select editing and proposal content development,
[2:22]as well as teaching and coaching, and pens a regular column race matters for Cup of
[2:26]Joe.
[2:27]She lives in New York City.
[2:28]Hello, Christine and Joe.
[2:30]Thanks for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[2:33]We are so excited to be here.
[2:35]Thanks for having us.
[2:36]Thanks for having us.
[2:37]I'm so thrilled to be the person to interview you today.
[2:41]I finished your book last night, and the title is You Were Always Mine.
[2:46]It's so good.
[2:48]I have to tell you this morning, so I was almost done last night, but it was getting late
[2:53]and I was getting a little bit sleepy, so I finished the last chapter and I saw the epilogue
[2:57]and I thought, nope, I'm going to wait until tomorrow morning, because I was so invested
[3:02]that I thought I don't want to read this while I'm falling asleep, like it deserves my
[3:07]full attention, and I woke up this morning and read it, and my son came in and he goes,
[3:11]are you living your best life?
[3:12]And I said, yeah, did you get a ride to school or what?
[3:16]But it just, it was a beautiful book.
[3:18]So congratulations.
[3:19]Thank you so much.
[3:21]We're really excited.
[3:22]We said we're at the beginning of the publication process, and that's always so exciting,
[3:27]where you'd, you know, you don't know what's going to happen, and you're so excited to
[3:30]talk to readers, and you know, this is really fun.
[3:34]Totally.
[3:35]It's like going on, going on a first date or a second date.
[3:38]Yes.
[3:39]Still in doing it.
[3:40]You're still going to it.
[3:41]You're still into it.
[3:42]Well, that leads perfectly to my next question, which is, I realize you are both very busy
[3:45]accomplished women and you have things in your life, but how do I get to be part of your
[3:50]co-writing club?
[3:51]Are you looking for a third person?
[3:53]Can I be at the top of the list?
[3:55]The more the man.
[3:56]Yeah.
[3:57]Totally.
[3:58]I mean, we would be into a football group, but I don't know how you say it.
[4:02]Exactly.
[4:03]You really have to be in a Google Docs, though.
[4:05]That was my first kind of indoctrination into the co-writing, learning Google Docs.
[4:11]So that, just so you know, is a hazing prerequisite.
[4:15]Okay.
[4:17]I will get prepared.
[4:19]I'm very excited about this.
[4:20]No, but I was reading the book and I thought this is so seamless and you're pays.
[4:26]I mean, it's just really all so beautifully done.
[4:29]So I want to talk a little bit about the process for you guys, but first I want to talk
[4:32]about why.
[4:34]How did you decide that motherhood was going to be the topic for this one?
[4:36]Because you write about it with a real appreciation and honesty and just a tenderness that
[4:42]I really loved from all the characters.
[4:45]So how did you decide that that was the topic?
[4:48]We have known for a while.
[4:50]Actually, we had this idea when we first sold, we are not like them.
[4:58]So when we first submitted the 100 pages of that and sold it on proposal, this was the
[5:04]second book that we were going to write.
[5:06]So we've known how long is that Christine?
[5:08]Christine's better with time than I have.
[5:09]One eight, eight, five years ago?
[5:11]Right.
[5:12]Five years ago.
[5:14]And Christine is the one who actually came up with the bones for this idea, which is interesting
[5:23]if you think about it.
[5:24]Christine is the part of our team that is child free by choice and I am the part of our
[5:28]team that is constantly pregnant, but it this idea, which was so, I mean, it was still
[5:36]little.
[5:37]It was just a few lines of an idea.
[5:39]Really took shape over the next five years.
[5:42]I had three kids and then, you know, the world also changed with how we treat mothers
[5:47]and how we care for mothers, especially through the pandemic.
[5:50]And so this idea, I think, for both of us became more important than ever.
[5:55]Absolutely.
[5:56]And I was just going to add that, you know, we've always been interested, obviously,
[6:02]as an interracial writing duo and the idea of how race plays out, right, in intimate
[6:08]spaces, we say.
[6:09]So in our first book of their friendship, right, and how race was on top of all the other
[6:14]factors that are a part of friendship, how race is a layer there when you have an interracial
[6:19]friendship.
[6:20]And we wanted to do the same thing here when you take a really intimate relationship
[6:24]and nothing is more intimate than a mother, daughter, or mother child bond, right.
[6:30]And you add a layer to that of race.
[6:34]So what happens when you have a white mother, a black mother chosen family, foster care,
[6:39]it all lends itself to a lot of, we thought, rich themes that we could dig into.
[6:47]And with a lot of nuance, which is what we tried to do with our first book as well, the
[6:51]show that there's so much complexity here.
[6:54]Mm-hmm.
[6:55]I really like hearing that.
[6:57]And I think it really lent a lot to the tension, too, because the stakes are so high.
[7:01]I mean, these are lives and relationships.
[7:04]And so to see them play out on the page was really moving.
[7:08]You guys did a fantastic job with that part.
[7:11]I was walking around the house with my Kindle reading it, because I just really needed
[7:16]to know how it was going to go.
[7:19]And I had a personal, my mom was adopted at first.
[7:23]So, and she met her birth mother when she was 37.
[7:26]Oh, wow.
[7:27]Oh, wow.
[7:28]Now I want to hear all about her story.
[7:30]Yeah.
[7:31]Well, it actually is a, I'll tell it quick, because it is a great story.
[7:35]She born in 1955.
[7:37]Her mom did not want to share that information with her, her, my grandmother.
[7:42]And so after she passed away, my mom was going through her thing.
[7:45]She found a last name.
[7:47]And my mom picked up a phone book from Denver.
[7:50]We lived in Vale at the time.
[7:51]We had an old phone book from Denver.
[7:53]My mom picks it up, looks up that last name, dials the first number, says, hi, I'm
[7:58]looking for a woman who might have given up a child in 1955.
[8:01]And the man on the other side says, that's my sister.
[8:05]And so I know it's so insane.
[8:09]Wow.
[8:10]And so then he called her on my mom's behalf.
[8:14]She called back.
[8:15]So I had the great fortune of knowing both of them, both my grandmother and her birth mother.
[8:21]So yeah, it's, but this is the thing is that those stories are so, there are so many
[8:26]and they're all so rich.
[8:29]And again, I mean, I used the word again, but tender, where it's just, it's like intimate
[8:33]spaces.
[8:34]You're exactly right.
[8:35]So I think that definitely had me, I connected with it on that level.
[8:40]But I also connected because I'm a mom and all the things.
[8:43]So I just, I thought it was so good.
[8:46]And I can't wait to go back and read your other book.
[8:48]Well, we love that because, I mean, thank you for sharing that because one of the beautiful
[8:52]things about being on tour and talking to readers about we are not like them for the last
[8:57]two years.
[8:58]Of course, people sharing their stories of friendship.
[9:01]Yes.
[9:02]So interesting to switch to a completely different topic, obviously motherhood and adoption
[9:06]and foster care and how we create families.
[9:08]And then hear all these amazing stories about adoption and foster care and people signing
[9:14]family and discovering later and secrets come out and reconnections and all the whole
[9:18]day.
[9:19]And so, you know, to the degree that which our novels can be a vehicle for people to, you
[9:23]know, tell us their stories.
[9:25]We love it.
[9:26]So yeah.
[9:27]Well, and it's such a beautiful, I think, opportunity right now too because even my mom's
[9:35]story, I mean, there were so many issues and things that were kept secret around adoption
[9:40]especially.
[9:41]And now we do have, we live in a different age, which, you know, sometimes for better
[9:46]or worse, but it just has this element of there can be more openness and I think you
[9:50]did a good job sort of showing that in some of the relationships and how things were resolved.
[9:56]So it just, it was really, really.
[10:00]the tenderly and beautifully done, I loved it.
[10:03]Okay, so I have this question.
[10:05]I know you mentioned this by the way,
[10:06]when you were saying child-free by choice.
[10:07]When I was writing this down,
[10:09]I was thinking, okay, Christine has a lot
[10:11]of mothering roles in her life.
[10:14]And I was thinking, we also need new terms for this
[10:16]because I was thinking, if you're child-free by choice,
[10:19]then Joe is child-burdened by choice.
[10:21]Yeah, you better start using that now,
[10:25]instead of mothering.
[10:26]I am child-burdened by choice.
[10:28]I'm not burdened.
[10:29]It goes off the tongue.
[10:30]It does, or saddled, was another one.
[10:32]And I have written down.
[10:33]Child-s saddled.
[10:34]Saddled with children.
[10:35]Yeah, I do say that.
[10:37]Right off to it, yeah.
[10:38]But you know, here's the interesting thing.
[10:39]I wrote some Instagram posts or sub-sack,
[10:43]I don't know, something lately,
[10:45]where I was complaining about my kids.
[10:47]And I got a comment from someone that goes,
[10:51]well, then you shouldn't have had them
[10:53]if you're gonna complain about them.
[10:54]Shut up.
[10:56]That's a door already.
[10:57]That's so cute.
[10:59]I can complain about whatever I want to,
[11:01]especially my children.
[11:03]But yeah, saddled,
[11:04]somebody feels a good word.
[11:06]Well, yeah, of course we love them.
[11:08]It's just like partners and people in your life.
[11:11]I mean, it's my job to love you.
[11:12]You can't complain.
[11:13]And complain about gambling.
[11:14]Exactly.
[11:15]Yeah, exactly.
[11:16]We love our family and we complain about our family
[11:18]and that is a nature.
[11:20]Yep, it's a God-given right.
[11:22]It is.
[11:23]It is a God-given right.
[11:25]Okay, so on that note,
[11:26]what's one thing that you each learned from the other
[11:30]in the writing of this book that maybe surprised you
[11:33]when it came to mothering your mother?
[11:35]Like, what was one thing that you learned?
[11:37]Mm-hmm.
[11:39]Well, either that Joe was pregnant during the...
[11:41]There were any of this, but that was a surprise
[11:44]when she called me to tell me
[11:45]that might not be exactly what you meant in terms.
[11:48]But I like it.
[11:49]I also like it.
[11:50]Fun fact.
[11:51]I haven't seen it was a surprise to me, too.
[11:53]Yeah.
[11:54]Wow.
[11:56]Yeah.
[11:57]I love surprises.
[11:58]Unexpected.
[11:59]Well, I also took the pregnancy test on April Fool's Day,
[12:01]which didn't make it any less of a surprise to my husband.
[12:03]LAUGHTER
[12:05]We've actually...
[12:06]We've talked about this a lot
[12:08]because we're actually batting around the idea
[12:11]to write an essay about myths that mothers have
[12:15]about women who don't have kids
[12:17]and that women who don't have kids have about mothers.
[12:20]And I think that there is mothers
[12:23]because of all the things that we're juggling.
[12:26]You know, often think, oh, well, she doesn't have kids.
[12:29]She can't be as busy as me.
[12:31]She must have so much free time.
[12:33]Uh...
[12:34]And I think that's a myth that really deserves to be shot down
[12:38]because Kristina is one of the hardest-working people I know
[12:41]with an incredibly busy schedule
[12:44]caring for things that are not children,
[12:46]caring for friends, caring for friends children,
[12:48]caring for parents.
[12:50]But I do think that that is something that gets assumed a lot.
[12:53]And so that's one thing that we really like to talk about.
[12:58]And I think the opposite is true, too.
[13:00]And this comes up, especially in a writing partnership
[13:03]where we're friends, but we're also colleagues.
[13:06]And it's, you know, are you prioritizing your kids
[13:09]overworking, right?
[13:10]I mean, I think people don't feel it in their offices, too.
[13:13]It's like, well, you know, are they shortening their duties?
[13:16]Because they're always going to be doing meetings
[13:19]or, you know, their kids' activities.
[13:21]And that's the reverse of a not fair myth that people have about.
[13:26]I mean, basically people should stay out of judging
[13:29]other people's lives and what they're doing with it.
[13:31]And not much time they do or do not have
[13:33]because it's really none of our business.
[13:34]But it is so pervasive to say, you know,
[13:37]what are you really bringing to the table here
[13:39]and what is distracting you from it?
[13:41]And Joe and I, you know, really stay away from that
[13:44]because we respect both of our, like, choices and our time
[13:48]and our commitment to our projects together.
[13:51]So that's been interesting.
[13:53]That's such a unique thing that's a burden for women, too, right?
[13:57]Where it's just assumed that you're always
[14:00]somehow not showing up as your full self
[14:03]or bringing your full self
[14:04]because you have other things in your life
[14:05]when the opposite is totally true, right?
[14:08]You're absolutely better at managing things often
[14:11]when you have more happening.
[14:13]Regardless of whether it's children or not.
[14:15]So that makes total sense to me.
[14:18]How do you guys do the co-writing?
[14:19]Because I need to know, so I'm going to be in on it.
[14:21]Right, right.
[14:22]This is really going to be a trial by fire.
[14:25]I can get ready.
[14:26]Buckle up.
[14:30]I'm, as I mentioned, use a Google Doc.
[14:33]Okay.
[14:34]We really start with creating a really detailed outline
[14:39]of what's going to happen in the story.
[14:40]So we have a roadmap to follow.
[14:42]And Joe knows that I love a plan and a map and an outline.
[14:47]And, you know, just anything to get us organized
[14:49]makes me so happy to color code it.
[14:53]I wish there was a way to do that in a Google Doc.
[14:56]Okay.
[14:57]Limitation.
[14:58]But we really, we sit down and a lot of that
[15:00]is collaborative on the phone right on Zoom
[15:04]or what have you where we're thinking through things
[15:06]and brainstorming before we came to the writing process.
[15:09]And so that takes us a while.
[15:11]And then we put all those nodes in a Google Doc
[15:13]with a timeline and kind of a chapter by chapter outline.
[15:17]And so then once we have that,
[15:19]we can both go back and forth and taking turns
[15:21]and starting drafting the chapter
[15:23]because we know at least roughly
[15:26]what's going to happen in that chapter.
[15:27]And so we go back and forth into that
[15:30]until we're sort of happy with that chapter
[15:32]and then move on to the next chapter
[15:34]and keep going and keep going like a marathon
[15:37]until we get to those magic words the end.
[15:40]And then we start back from the beginning.
[15:43]And then we do it all again and read it.
[15:45]And I think the fun thing that we get to do is co-writers
[15:48]that you don't get to do if you don't have a co-writer
[15:50]is we read it out loud to each other a lot.
[15:53]Fun.
[15:54]Which finds, just, it finds mistakes really well.
[16:00]For sure.
[16:02]It also just, I think helps with voice and tone
[16:05]and craft in so many ways.
[16:09]No one else will read your book aloud with you.
[16:11]No one else loves your book as much as you do.
[16:13]And so I think it's a real gift
[16:15]when you have a co-writer to do that.
[16:17]I really enjoyed doing that with Christine twice now.
[16:21]Sam, yeah.
[16:22]And to really say, is this working along the way?
[16:24]Is this working so many times when you're writing alone
[16:27]or, you know, I was an editor for many years
[16:29]so I know that when you're working one-on-one
[16:31]with a writer oftentimes it's you're getting,
[16:35]if not a finished draft, a pretty significant chunks at a time.
[16:39]Yes.
[16:40]And that is less of a, you know, day-to-day
[16:43]kind of minute to minute.
[16:45]The Joe and I are able to do with each other,
[16:46]which is, is this working, you know, is this chapter working?
[16:50]Even is this graph working?
[16:51]That kind of thing to get that kind of constant feedback
[16:55]is really the beauty of having a co-writer.
[16:58]Yeah.
[16:59]Does it feel like you can write faster in that way?
[17:02]Is it faster or slower, I guess is my question?
[17:04]That's a really good question.
[17:06]And I mean, Joe would be able to answer that more than I can
[17:09]because she's written 5,000 other books before this.
[17:12]I don't really have a baseline comparison
[17:14]to know how long it would or wouldn't take.
[17:17]I mean, I feel like we're both pretty fast.
[17:19]Just in general, Joe is much faster than I am even with that.
[17:24]But I also think part of the speed is that we have
[17:28]to keep each other on task that we have deadlines
[17:31]to each other, to keep us focused.
[17:33]So some of that is just accountability
[17:35]whereas doing it on your own, you can put it down for a month,
[17:41]two months, three months, right?
[17:42]I mean, you can just slow yourself down in a way
[17:45]that you can't with another person.
[17:49]Yeah, I agree.
[17:50]It's different.
[17:52]I'll say that.
[17:53]It is really different because when I write on my own,
[17:57]I kind of fly by the seat of my pants,
[17:59]which Christine hates it when I talk about this.
[18:01]This gives her hives, freaks her off so much.
[18:03]I don't write with an outline.
[18:04]The listeners can't be nodding seriously
[18:07]and getting those hives.
[18:08]Even the words lie by the seat of my pants.
[18:11]I don't know what's going to happen.
[18:13]You're fine.
[18:15]You're already feeling itchy.
[18:17]Yes, she is.
[18:18]I just finished another novel.
[18:20]I didn't know how it was going to end.
[18:22]So that gives you a little bit more freedom, right?
[18:26]Like you sit down and you just go.
[18:29]And it's a different kind of process.
[18:30]I think the characters develop differently in your brain.
[18:33]In some ways, that is faster
[18:37]because you don't have to rely on someone else, right?
[18:40]So you don't have to kind of grapple over sentence
[18:45]and stuff.
[18:46]It evolves in a different way.
[18:48]That said, you also don't have the checks and balances.
[18:50]And so you do have a longer re-editing process
[18:54]and searching for people to read it early
[18:58]and give you feedback.
[18:59]Christina and I have a built-in feedback system.
[19:01]So which is each other.
[19:03]So in that way, I'd say they probably both take
[19:05]the same amount of time.
[19:06]They're just wildly different processes.
[19:09]That makes total sense
[19:10]because you'd almost have a more polished first draft
[19:13]quote unquote between the two of you
[19:15]because you have revised as you've gone.
[19:17]Or short.
[19:18]You turn in more polished drafts or editors for that reason.
[19:22]I bet the editors love that.
[19:23]I hate you, love that.
[19:24]And we love our editors.
[19:26]That's perfect.
[19:27]We could do love our editors.
[19:28]They're all all of them.
[19:29]They're wonderful.
[19:30]That's fantastic.
[19:31]That's a good thing.
[19:33]Christina, what is your favorite thing about Joe?
[19:35]Oh, gosh.
[19:36]So how many things?
[19:37]I think Joe is always present and always
[19:41]available for work or a good time.
[19:45]You know what I mean?
[19:46]Just like Joe is very fly by the seat of her pants.
[19:50]She's very good with the flap.
[19:51]And she's really as far as productive as she is,
[19:56]which she is one of the most productive people I know.
[19:59]She's varied.
[20:00]chill about it. And so, you know, we'll have work to do or deadlines, but somehow it's still
[20:06]we can fit in getting drinks at one of our favorite restaurants here in Harlem when she comes
[20:11]up to New York and still work. And like she's a good balance of like, you know, being
[20:17]fun friend, always up for a good time, but also always ready to buckle down and get something done.
[20:23]And that is a, I feel like unique combination. Absolutely. Joe, what about for you? What's your favorite
[20:29]thing about Christine? Oh, yeah, she's just like the best thing, a friend. And she's really,
[20:35]really wonderful at like knowing what you need as a friend and how to take care of you as a friend.
[20:41]But then also, she's the best editor that I've ever had. We met when she was my editor for
[20:45]Charlotte Walsh likes to win. And we became close when we did that. And I just, I feel so lucky that
[20:52]I get to write books with her and have her, you know, as that editorial voice as we write books
[20:57]together. And then also for other projects that I'm working on that she's just always there to
[21:02]give this feedback that is honed from 20 years of doing what she's been doing very, very well.
[21:09]I love hearing those by the way. Thanks for asking us that. Nobody has ever asked us that before.
[21:14]I feel like we were on the newlywed game. That's what we should have done, right? I could have had
[21:20]you answer things beforehand. Dang, that was a missed opportunity. I love hearing that and you can
[21:25]definitely sense it in the book. You guys have a really healthy synergy between you because it's so
[21:32]smooth. And the editor, when you were saying, Joe, that Christine's the best editor,
[21:37]you worked with, I can see that in the pacing of the book. Oh, yeah, she's very, very good at that.
[21:42]I am not, she's much better than I am at that. Well, and I'm sure I will read your other books and
[21:46]love them. Not that you're terrible about pacing, but I mean, I just could feel like
[21:52]when I was waiting for a beat, there it was. It was so natural. Well, that's what I think
[21:58]in another beauty of working with somebody in this kind of partnership. And it took us
[22:04]some time to figure this out was really how to leverage each other's strengths, right? Because
[22:09]obviously people are good at different things. And really paying attention to that and using that
[22:17]to our advantage, right? Like I, as an editor, you do kind of develop an intuitive sense of
[22:23]structure and pacing because that's mainly what people need, right? They write books and then you
[22:28]come in and you sort of undergird them with more of an organization and, you know, the
[22:33]attention and the momentum of book needs along the way. So, you know, that is something that
[22:38]I bring to the table, whereas Joe is really good at one, getting words down and getting, you know,
[22:44]sort of mechanics and characters and like the actual grit of the book, you know, and
[22:49]where things are going to happen and how they're going to happen and all of those things are,
[22:53]you know, obviously so important, like getting a character from A to B is one of the hardest things
[22:59]about writing, which is mind blowing. And so it is nice that we can play to our strengths that way.
[23:06]And I think the books that we write benefit from that and that's nice to see.
[23:10]That makes total sense. Joe, what are you? Okay, I know you're both voracious readers, obviously.
[23:18]Hmm. What are you reading right now?
[23:20]Oh, I just finished romantic comedy by Curtis Cittenfeld and really enjoyed it. I didn't
[23:26]know anything about it going into it, which is nice. I need to do that more where I just read
[23:31]a book knowing nothing about what it's about. I also just finished the whispers by Ashley,
[23:38]a drain and enjoyed that a lot. That's out. I think the same day as our book in June. And
[23:44]to that end, just finished the spare room by Andrea Bartz, which I think is also out the same day
[23:49]that we're up. What's happening on June 13th? Right. It's a party. I'm excited. That's a great day.
[23:56]That's a good lineup. It's a good lineup. Ashley all drain author of the push. Correct. Yeah,
[24:00]Ashley all drain author of the push. Do this one have the same vibes or different vibes?
[24:05]The same, same age vibes. I mean, this focus more, the push, I think about the push all the time.
[24:11]That's exactly what I was thinking. Is this one going to stay in my mind forever? Yes,
[24:15]this one is definitely a little different. But I think about the push all the time as,
[24:19]you know, the mother of a three and a five and a half year old and a three and a half year old.
[24:23]And sometimes I look at them and I'm like, did you do that on purpose?
[24:29]Like, is there evil inside of you?
[24:31]But this one focuses more on the mothers involved in the unfulfilled desires and passions
[24:41]of women and how we interact with each other and the secret things that women who are both
[24:48]friends and not friends are thinking about one another. And I think she's just so good at writing
[24:52]modern women and writing about motherhood. So I really, I really enjoyed it a lot.
[24:58]Okay, I'll put it on my list. I know we're both have to add it to our list. I'm already in there.
[25:02]What are you reading right now, Christine? I'm reading happy plays. I'm such an Emily Henry fan.
[25:07]It's so fun. I was so happy to see her number one on the New York Times bestseller list.
[25:13]And you know, as an editor, it's like the list is the list, right? It's something that you're
[25:17]always like chasing. And it's just perfect when a book that deserves to be there and author
[25:23]that is work so hard, that is built such a following and such an organic way is so by all
[25:29]accounts lovely and to see that, you know, kind of response from readers. And then to read the book
[25:34]and love it as much as, you know, readers have, it's just, it's a delight. So I'm really enjoying that.
[25:40]Fun. I have that one on my shelf and I love the color of the cover design. Right. It's so
[25:45]poppy that pink. I just want to paint everything that pink. It's like the color of summer.
[25:50]It's so true. Yes. I should paint a room that I bet my husband would be really happy
[25:53]it came home from his work trip and our bedroom or pink. He would. He would do it. He still has
[25:59]some time to do it. I do. He's not until tomorrow night. It said it'd be great. I have to give a nod
[26:06]to your language in the book and the way that you were so insightful about motherhood.
[26:11]There were a couple of lines. I've never been so bone tired and something new and terrifying happens
[26:16]every couple of hours. I was like, check and check. And the other thing was the time loop with
[26:22]a baby. The days are approximately 567 hours long and passed in a flash at the exact same time.
[26:28]Now I have a question. Christine, were those lines that you weighed in on or were those
[26:33]ones that Joe came up with? I am a close observer and boy, you're a mother. You know, 90% of my
[26:40]friends have young children right now. So I feel like, like, seriously immersed. But I think
[26:44]that's one of those things in terms of our sentence by sentence, kind of editing process.
[26:49]It's in the beauty of having co-writers or working together is we get kind of nugget of an idea
[26:55]or like, you know, we want this description and then you have the other person to like refine
[26:59]the sentences. And so it's it is hard to tell when we go back through the book. Right. Like,
[27:04]you know, sentence by sentence because people wait in like I, for example, write
[27:09]in prone to writing very long sentences. They're so long. Sometimes they're so long. Yeah,
[27:14]there's a lot of content. I think, you know, so there's the it, but I don't know. I think it's
[27:19]such a sweet weeding all the way, all the way through. It's interesting. I can't tell you who
[27:25]wrote what at this point with most with a lot of it with probably 90% of it. I mean, I'm sure that
[27:29]there's some that I'm like, oh, yeah, that was me. But like, we both tinker with so much of it
[27:36]that it really is a full on collaboration. It just become the meld. That's so great. Yeah. And it
[27:43]was funny because a lot of people asked us for our first book, which was told an alternating
[27:47]points of view between Riley, our black character and Jenna white character, you know, how did you
[27:52]or they assume rather that I as the black person wrote Riley, the black character and Joe
[27:57]wrote Jen, the white character. And in this version, it's more cinnamon, who's a black woman. It's
[28:03]you know, I would say 80% her story. And then we get Daisy's story blended in. So it's not that
[28:08]same 50 50. But, you know, in the same way, we both had to weigh in on all different aspects,
[28:16]right, of like we always say with Riley and Jen, right, it's about race, but it was also about
[28:21]being a friend and being an ambitious woman and so forth. And for this book, certainly, you know,
[28:27]it's about race and it's about motherhood, but it's also about friendship. And, you know, the
[28:31]choices that you have to make the sacrifice is willing to make. It's about past trauma and
[28:36]how you reckon as an adult with what has happened to you as a child and what is fair, not fair,
[28:41]and how you create family. And, you know, my parents were foster parents and so that was
[28:48]a big team, you know, obviously through the book. And I drew a lot from that experience. So we
[28:53]are both writing from lots of different personal experiences and observations and, you know,
[28:59]feelings and emotions. And it's a tapestry. I think that's one of the things you did learn about
[29:05]me though, Joe, just to circle back to that question. I don't think you knew my parents were foster
[29:09]parents until we started talking about this idea. No, not until we started talking about this idea.
[29:13]Yeah, it's just conversation so long ago, but yeah, that was the first time that I knew.
[29:17]It's like that time that I learned about your brother, the professional baseball player.
[29:20]Oh, right. You just know my brother is especially. Yeah. See writing books, it really,
[29:24]it is like the newlywed game you learned a lot about. You really do. But I think it speaks to
[29:31]so many of the, there's so much we intuitively understand about motherhood regardless of our situation
[29:38]because so many women are caretakers. We care for each other in friendships and relationships
[29:44]in all sorts of ways. So seeing how you guys were able to put those together was just beautiful.
[29:51]I also think what's important is when you're sometimes in your child free by choice to circle
[29:57]back when you're talking about, you know, it's a miss and stereotype.
[30:00]I think some people think that you don't have a respect for motherhood. I think that there's
[30:04]like, if you made a decision not to have a child and there's some sort of underlying
[30:09]derision or judgment there, right, of the act even of motherhood. And you know, that's not
[30:15]the case. So even though, you know, I'm child free by joy is because it wasn't the right fit
[30:19]for my lifestyle. It's still motherhood as an act, right, is still something that, you know, I respect
[30:27]the same way, you know, I haven't been married, but I still respect the, you know, sanctity and
[30:31]value of marriage or right now, people create families. So I think it's one of those subjects
[30:37]like that you can't wall off, that people can't have an opinion about one way or another,
[30:42]just because what would out regardless of your experiences with it, because it's so fundamental to,
[30:48]you know, human nature. I happen to have a mother. So there's that aspect to
[30:54]I've seen mother, I've seen mothers in the world. Yeah, I have heard of the existence of mothers
[31:02]and so therefore that's so true though. This assumption that there isn't
[31:07]respect, appreciation, all of that for it. I think our conversations about whether or not to have
[31:13]children are so woefully inadequate and great or great. And so I hope that, and I would imagine
[31:21]that your hope is the same, that this book just contributes to that conversation because
[31:25]there are so many ways to love someone, to mother them, to be a family, and it just,
[31:33]we don't need to make it so binary and so limited, I guess. And your feelings about it are
[31:39]allowed to change. We really wanted to show that so, right? I mean, this is not too much of a way,
[31:44]but cinnamon was, you know, ambivalent in a lot of ways. They're confused in a lot of ways about
[31:51]whether she wanted to be a mother or not. And I think so often we assume that women want to be
[31:56]mothers and women even themselves might assume that they want to be a mother because of the,
[32:02]you know, all of the societal pressures we get. It seems like the road, you know, street from
[32:06]like the time you're in kindergarten, you know, is like gearing you towards motherhood,
[32:11]even subconsciously. And so through our character, we wanted to show that that she, that all women
[32:17]and certainly our character had to make a very conscious choice about what she wanted to do about
[32:25]being a mother or not in, by way of these high-stakes situation, then she found herself in. And through
[32:32]that wrestling, we hope that other people start thinking about, you know, the choice of motherhood,
[32:40]and it being seen as a choice, not a horizontal on conclusion and not something that you're
[32:46]forced into, and both of those are pitfalls in our society frankly. I couldn't agree more. And I
[32:52]love the way you put that. It's so true. It's even embedded in the language, right? We say you are
[32:56]child-free by choice, but we don't say, Joe has children by choice. Right? It's just, we don't,
[33:03]we need some new terms too. I was wrong. We do. We do. We do. And we need to see more types of women.
[33:09]We do pop culture. And we really do. We talked about this a lot while we were writing the book,
[33:15]you know, from a cultural perspective, from a mass media perspective, we see so much of motherhood
[33:22]of white privileged motherhood. Yes. And white privileged motherhood is a very specific thing.
[33:30]And white privileged motherhood of women who plan to have their babies at a certain time in their
[33:36]life. And either that works or that doesn't work. And then they go through different processes,
[33:41]they go through IVF, different fertility treatments. But it's very rare that we see what the majority
[33:48]of mothers go through, which is women getting pregnant when they're not necessarily ready, when
[33:54]when they don't have a partner to do it with, when they can't, when maybe they want, they want
[33:59]a baby, they're almost ready, but their job doesn't support them and they have no money. Those
[34:04]are not stories that we see nearly enough about motherhood in the media. And we wanted to talk
[34:11]about that when it comes to our birth mother in the story, Daisy. And I think it's more important
[34:16]than ever for us to show those stories, given what's happening with the restrictions on women's
[34:21]rights around how to choose when and how to have a child. Yes. And to remove some of the stigma
[34:28]of it, we wanted to show Daisy as a relatable, you know, real character, you know, who's
[34:35]who's wrestling with all these things because, you know, there's a lot of women out there in the
[34:40]world who forward ever reason can't rise to the challenge. And I use that word very intentionally,
[34:47]motherhood is a challenge, can't rise to the challenge of motherhood for a thousand different
[34:51]reasons that we are so quick to condemn. And so we wanted as a society. And so we wanted to show,
[34:58]you know, characters that had mothers that society would find problematic, right? And to have
[35:05]have mothers who make choices that we would judge and and to show that there is just all these
[35:13]complexities to motherhood that we don't see enough and that we really tried to infuse our
[35:20]book with. And especially, you know, that cinnamon is a black, I want to say regular woman,
[35:26]right? Which is also important to us. The same that we did it with Riley in, we are not like
[35:32]them. We're so often we see certain types of characters of color, like certain types of black
[35:37]characters, certain types of white characters even. And so we were, you know, trying to shake that
[35:42]up a little bit too. Right. Well, thank you both. I appreciate you so much. Thanks for the time and
[35:49]best of luck with the book. Thank you so much. We appreciate you.
[35:54]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[36:00]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my
[36:05]newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom
[36:10]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[36:15]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.