Adrienne Brodeur, LITTLE MONSTERS
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[1:03]Adrienne Broder is back on mom's and how time to read books.
[1:07]A second time after her amazing memoir Wilds Game, now she's back with a novel called Little
[1:13]Monsters.
[1:14]Adrienne is the author of Wilds Game, which I mentioned, which was selected as a best
[1:18]book of the year by NPR and The Washington Post, and is in development as a Netflix film.
[1:23]She founded the literary magazine Zoe Trope, all story with Francis Ford Coebola and currently
[1:28]serves as executive director of Aspen words, a literary nonprofit and program of the
[1:33]Aspen Institute.
[1:35]She splits her time between Cambridge and Cape Cod, where she lives with her husband
[1:38]and children.
[1:39]Welcome, Adrienne.
[1:40]Thanks so much for coming back on mom's.
[1:42]Don't have time to read books to discuss your novel, Little Monsters.
[1:46]Congratulations.
[1:47]Well, thanks so much for having me, Zoe.
[1:49]Oh, it's my pleasure.
[1:51]As you know, I was like the biggest fan ever of Wilds Game as like everyone else the
[1:55]world was.
[1:56]But I, you know, I still talk about it.
[1:58]I still think about it.
[2:00]I mean, that moment when you came to our book club and like held up the necklace or
[2:04]remember what you know what I'm talking about.
[2:06]I know exactly what you're talking about.
[2:08]That was like the coolest.
[2:10]So I could not wait to dive into this book and, you know, your writing is so beautiful
[2:14]and did not disappoint in any way.
[2:16]It's so great to read how you are as a novelist.
[2:20]I don't know.
[2:21]It's so exciting.
[2:22]So tell listeners what Little Monsters is about.
[2:24]Well, for those of your listeners who have read Wild Game, it will come as no surprise.
[2:30]I'm obsessed with family secrets and that they loom large in this book.
[2:36]So this book takes a quite a scopic look at a different family.
[2:40]Thank goodness the fictional family, the gardeners, which is a very small family.
[2:44]It's a family of three, a father and two adult children.
[2:48]And it sort of comes at this inflection point in all of their lives.
[2:52]So, you know, just briefly Adam, who is the patriarch.
[2:56]He's about to turn 70.
[2:58]He's really worried about his relevance in the world.
[3:01]He's a marine biologist and he's determined to have one great discovery still on his
[3:07]horizon.
[3:08]And his son has just sealed a huge real estate business deal, which is sort of catapulted
[3:14]him into a new stratosphere.
[3:16]Well, and really his purpose or what that wealth will enable him to do is run for office
[3:22]which is his big goal.
[3:24]And then Abby, who's sort of the younger sister, she's 38, Ken's 41.
[3:30]She has finally finally found her voice as an artist and is about to be discovered in a big
[3:36]way.
[3:37]So we know all these things as we come into the novel that these things are at stake for
[3:41]each character.
[3:42]But we also know that they're kind of holding them secret, that there's the family's
[3:47]little delicate and they're waiting for the right moment to make their announcements.
[3:52]And as it turns out, it's all coming to a head when these disclosures will take place
[3:58]at Adam's 70th birthday party, which is during the summer in August.
[4:03]And then when you start to realize as you move towards this big day is that things are
[4:08]not as they seem and the ground is shifting and everyone is keeping secrets.
[4:15]Yes.
[4:16]Perfect.
[4:18]One storyline is that Adam, the patriarch, is battling bipolar and has complicated relationship
[4:27]with his own meds and what does he, he has this massive intellect that he feels sometimes
[4:34]is inhibited by his medication and he's like on the cusp of figuring something out.
[4:39]And so it's like, well, I can totally handle this.
[4:42]So in terms of mental illness and having a family member who as an adult, you are in
[4:47]charge of your own care.
[4:50]How do you handle that?
[4:51]And like a family ecosystem and the choices that go into that and then how, like, how
[4:56]are you thinking about it as you wrote about it?
[4:58]Right.
[4:59]I mean, well, Adam really isn't thinking about anyone but himself at that time and he rationalizes
[5:04]it the way we all rationalize our decisions, but that he's, you know, no one's living
[5:08]at home with him, his children are adults and he truly believes that if his mind is sort
[5:14]of liberated from the anesthetizing effects of his medication that he will be able to connect
[5:20]these dots.
[5:21]So I feel like he's, he's getting little hints, he's having dreams, he's writing things
[5:27]down, he's making connections, which in some ways, you know, we all can relate to and
[5:32]writing books or what have you, you're, you're sort of listening and trying to make
[5:35]sense of these things.
[5:37]And he, yeah, he's excited about doing this and he makes this somewhat rash decision to
[5:42]go off his meds in order to succeed.
[5:47]So we have to see what happens then that's I don't want to give anything too big away.
[5:53]I'm not going to say I won't go further than that.
[5:57]You also have to set up with a journalist being wowed by Abby's work and her studio and
[6:03]which is her late mom's video and how she's just has this talent that is nascent in a way
[6:10]and about it.
[6:11]As you said, be explored and publicized a lot more.
[6:15]And I love how you give us this point of view from the external person who's coming in so
[6:19]that we all feel like we're walking on the beach and going through this interview and
[6:22]like learning about her and, you know, I don't know, I could just like feel the wind from
[6:27]the ocean and all of that because you make it so, you know, multisensory.
[6:32]Tell me a little more about Abby and her character and even the painting, the artistic
[6:37]side and how it contrasts or doesn't with the very scientific brain of her dad and then
[6:45]the like financial brain of her brother.
[6:47]Right.
[6:48]I mean, these are three wildly different characters, right?
[6:51]And they, they're all ambitious and they're all successful.
[6:55]And in some ways, I set it in 2016 because I felt that that was a moment where the ground
[7:01]did feel like it was shifting and, you know, with Abby in particular, I was looking
[7:07]at a woman who was finally sort of finding her voice and I think a lot of women at this
[7:14]moment in time can relate to that, even in ways that we didn't realize we were holding
[7:20]back our voices.
[7:21]So it was really thrilling to give her this sort of rising power of figuring out what
[7:28]she wanted to convey by her art and allowing her to do that even though, you know, there
[7:32]could be serious ramifications because she was painting some very personal narratives.
[7:37]Yes.
[7:38]So yeah, I found her a very interesting character who was evolving.
[7:44]I mean, I feel like with characters, some of them just, you know, are there on the page
[7:50]and arrive, you know, I never had the experience before of a character arriving fully formed
[7:55]and at least Adam did that for me.
[7:57]So why a 70 year old bipolar narcissist just came that really, but I swear I put my hands
[8:05]over the keyboard and he would speak and that was great.
[8:08]And with every other character, it really was, you know, that process of having to write
[8:13]into them.
[8:15]You think you know them as the author, but you have to actually, you know, put them
[8:19]in situations where you learn a lot about them.
[8:21]So I feel, you know, really I had to get several hundred pages into the book to understand
[8:27]who they were and then to allow myself to be surprised by their actions and all of that.
[8:32]So it was really honestly, it was really fun to write a novel and have that kind of freedom
[8:39]to see who those people were.
[8:41]And for people who don't know the secrets you were referring to if Malabar and everybody
[8:45]from the other game, can you give just like a little preview of a little snippet of
[8:51]why all game?
[8:52]No, it just of your family background and how it relates not to that book.
[8:56]But to this book based on your own, what the baggage that we all bring to every piece
[9:03]of work that we do?
[9:04]Sure.
[9:05]And I come from a family of prodigious secret keepers and, you know, it didn't just start
[9:11]with my parents' generation, even the generations before there were half siblings and other
[9:16]families and there was sort of all sorts of stuff and having grown up in that environment
[9:21]I feel so attuned to the dark power that secrets have over us.
[9:29]I mean, I think John called them like young, sorry, as psychic poison in as much as they
[9:34]keep the holder of the secret sort of alienated from his or her community.
[9:42]And so it was sort of liberating for me to, you know, in wild game, it was very much
[9:48]a particular secret and it was my version of it, obviously it was memoir, so it was nonfiction
[9:54]and me walking through that story and what's sort of delightful about it.
[10:00]fictional universe, of course, it's all made up.
[10:03]But that I could explore it in this sort of kaleidoscopic
[10:06]perspective, because this novel is told in multiple perspectives.
[10:11]And so you see what people think they know versus what they know.
[10:15]And there are always these shifting layers,
[10:17]which I really enjoyed thinking about and writing about.
[10:20]You also touch on aging in general.
[10:23]And the generational shifts, for example, Adam
[10:27]when he sees his doctor.
[10:29]And he's like, how did the doctor get so young?
[10:31]And why is the doctor not shaking my hand?
[10:33]And what about looking at me in the eye?
[10:35]And I feel like it's this bumping up against culture
[10:40]and all of that as well.
[10:42]And there's a lot of that.
[10:43]Is there is, I'm sure at all of our dinner tables
[10:46]with our own children when they're
[10:48]a guest at our blunders with the current language.
[10:53]I mean, I think this is as old as the time itself,
[10:58]these cycles of parents and children.
[11:00]And how we go from being so darn cool
[11:03]to really so just a dismal point.
[11:08]How involved are your kids and your work in general?
[11:12]Let's see.
[11:13]I scream quiet.
[11:15]And sometimes they're quiet.
[11:17]And you know, actually, I just, my kids are great.
[11:22]I, you know, Madeline, my daughter has read this book
[11:26]and really loved it, which was fun.
[11:29]My son is a huge reader.
[11:30]And I don't think it's interested on that level.
[11:33]But when I come to a struggle or plot point
[11:38]in the book as I'm writing, I often just talk to my family
[11:41]about it, whether that's while we're on a drive or in a walk.
[11:44]And my son actually, what did he solve some big problem?
[11:49]So the outside character in the novel,
[11:52]there's a secret keeper who comes in from the outside
[11:58]who's not, you know, officially part of the Gardner family
[12:01]but has stumbled upon a secret that makes her very intrigued
[12:04]by them.
[12:05]I mean, it was my son who actually came up with how
[12:08]she could discover her identity.
[12:11]That was very opaque, but I had to.
[12:13]Hey, it's okay.
[12:14]A family banter.
[12:16]How would a character find out this?
[12:17]And it's, you know, they think so differently than I do.
[12:21]And it's fun.
[12:22]That's excellent.
[12:23]Oh my gosh.
[12:24]When did you, like, which piece of this made you think,
[12:27]okay, this is gonna be a whole novel?
[12:29]Like, what inspired it?
[12:30]Like, which piece?
[12:32]Right.
[12:33]I mean, I think, so I was on my wild game tour
[12:37]and I got sent home like everyone got sent home
[12:39]in March of 2012.
[12:41]And I think I'm a very 2020.
[12:44]I was thinking,
[12:45]oh, barge 2020.
[12:47]Oh, I tend to be an intuitive writer.
[12:51]I don't, you know, people often ask sort of what I'm planning
[12:54]next and what I'm thinking about.
[12:55]So I'd say what happens to me is I start paying very close
[13:02]attention to where my mind seems to go.
[13:06]And, you know, I think Mary Oliver said it best.
[13:09]She said pay attention, be astonished, write about it.
[13:14]And that is very much the way I walk through my writing life.
[13:17]And so when I came home, which I was actually kind of happy
[13:21]to do after being on the road for so long,
[13:24]I noticed I was just thinking a lot about siblings
[13:28]and sibling dynamics.
[13:29]Several of my friends have complicated relationships
[13:32]with their siblings.
[13:33]I have a lot of siblings from, you know, different step families.
[13:38]And I just, I kept circling that territory.
[13:42]And then, you know, from their characters to develop
[13:46]and from there you sort of start writing.
[13:48]And I, I went to the original sibling story, of course,
[13:51]which is Cain and Abel looking for inspiration, got so little
[13:56]from that story, that story is so bare bones.
[13:58]Like, yeah, you, you out.
[14:02]And I remember just thinking, what am I supposed to do with that?
[14:04]I thought it was, but I did find the structure there
[14:08]because that made me think, okay, this is an interesting thing
[14:11]to move towards gift giving that that might be a concept.
[14:15]And I didn't even really realize how firmly that had taken hold
[14:18]because I kept reading different versions and thinking,
[14:20]you know, I got nothing here.
[14:22]Like, you know, some little, you know, your mind collects things
[14:25]in such interesting ways when you're instructing a book.
[14:30]And I mean, it's such a cliche to say,
[14:32]but it's really like, you know, flying the plane
[14:35]while you're building it.
[14:36]Interesting.
[14:38]Tell me more.
[14:39]And I'm very aware of your work with the Aspen Institute
[14:41]and all the things due to help so many other writers.
[14:44]But for people who might not know,
[14:46]talk about what it's like, sort of running that
[14:48]and how you got involved in that.
[14:50]And what kind of resource that is for authors out there?
[14:54]Sure. Thank you.
[14:55]My professional background was as an editor.
[14:57]And it worked as an editor for years, first
[14:59]with the short story magazine, SoTrop,
[15:01]then as a book editor.
[15:03]And then about 10 years ago, I did this lovely pivot
[15:07]to being a director of a literary nonprofit,
[15:11]which has been one of those wonderful experiences
[15:15]in my life where I've gotten to stay in this world
[15:17]that I love so much, which is all things literary,
[15:20]but tackling it from a new angle.
[15:22]And we have lots of programs at Aspen words.
[15:25]We have a big summer writing conference.
[15:27]We have an annual literary prize,
[15:29]which celebrates the work of fiction
[15:31]that has a social theme.
[15:34]We have residencies.
[15:35]We just do all sorts of things.
[15:37]And we try to support writers from sort of fledgling
[15:40]to famous and it's really been,
[15:43]it's been a dream job for me.
[15:44]I've really enjoyed it.
[15:46]Who is like the target audience for Aspen words in the summer
[15:50]and all of that?
[15:51]I know it's probably sold out at this point.
[15:52]But yeah, I mean, it's very different
[15:55]depending on our program.
[15:57]So we have an author speaking series
[15:59]that's really for people in the Roaring Fork Valley.
[16:03]Our prize is national and international.
[16:05]We want to celebrate strong works of fiction
[16:08]that also create dialogues around important issues.
[16:12]So I would say that is for everyone.
[16:14]And then Aspen summer words is really for writers
[16:17]who want to come and participate in a writer's conference
[16:20]where there are lots of workshops
[16:22]and fiction and nonfiction and poetry
[16:24]in every other thing.
[16:25]Amazing.
[16:26]It was so fun going to the prize ceremony this year
[16:30]and hearing all the great authors who were nominated
[16:33]and hopefully you asked them one of these days.
[16:36]Oh, yes.
[16:37]I do very badly with altitude, I have to say.
[16:39]Oh, yeah.
[16:40]And then I took like altitude pills once it made me completely crazy
[16:42]and that kind of ruined that trip.
[16:44]But anyway, are you, you know, we'll find you in other places.
[16:48]I know, I'm dying to go back.
[16:51]It's been many, many years.
[16:52]And so now that the novel is coming out and it's so exciting.
[16:57]Are you more tempted to dive back into memoir, personal essays,
[17:02]personal writing, or going into fiction again?
[17:05]Like, where do you see your writing career going as you
[17:08]as you have for a read?
[17:10]I will say, I think I'm planning on sticking with fiction.
[17:13]We'll see if something comes up that moves me, you know,
[17:16]as I said before, I tend to sort of move towards where
[17:20]my heart leads me.
[17:22]And I have thoughts, you know, very embryonic
[17:25]where my mind keeps landing for the next book
[17:28]and it's definitely fiction.
[17:30]And also, honestly, it's just, well, you're in the same boat
[17:34]having written a memoir and having,
[17:36]you have a novel coming out, right?
[17:38]So I will let you know that it is a lot more relaxing
[17:43]to be facing a novel's publication than a memoir simply
[17:46]because, you know, you're obviously, your work is going to be
[17:50]judged, but it is, you feel less that your life is going to be
[17:53]judged, which is really a different way.
[17:55]I was incredibly anxious before my memoir came out.
[17:59]And I feel much more relaxed.
[18:02]I mean, that might change.
[18:03]But I'm actually really looking forward to this,
[18:06]this period of when I have conversations like these,
[18:09]because, you know, I think what is that saying?
[18:11]No two persons read the same book.
[18:14]I mean, what's wonderful about when your book comes out
[18:17]is that you actually start hearing what people think it's about,
[18:23]because it might actually be different
[18:25]from what you wrote about.
[18:26]I mean, you know what you're writing about,
[18:28]but everyone brings their own lens.
[18:30]And so it's really, it's such an interesting time, I think.
[18:35]And what books have caught your interest lately?
[18:38]I just finished sharing parts of a title, Monsters by Claire
[18:43]Dieterer.
[18:43]I don't know if you've read that yet.
[18:45]I haven't yet.
[18:46]Is such a fascinating examination of what to do
[18:52]and how to feel about the artist we love who might have
[18:56]been monstrous in their personal life.
[18:58]And she's just got a brilliant mind and an interesting take.
[19:01]And I found it pure pleasure to read.
[19:04]I am in the thick.
[19:06]I've just started Abraham Vergase's The Covenant of Water,
[19:09]which I've been waiting, you know, 10 years for,
[19:12]because I loved cutting for stone so much.
[19:15]I've actually feel like I've had a really fruitful reading
[19:20]period in the last few months.
[19:22]So just, you know, lots of great books.
[19:24]I always read our shortlist for the literary prize.
[19:27]So there were some wonderful works there.
[19:29]And I really love the winning book, The Haunting of Hunchy Hotak.
[19:33]So it's been good.
[19:35]That's amazing.
[19:36]What advice would you have both for people writing memoirs
[19:39]and novels and it can be one or both?
[19:43]Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm a bore in terms of my advice.
[19:47]But my, my best, biggest, most powerful advice
[19:52]is just to do it every day, to try to get into a rhythm.
[19:56]We, none of us have time.
[19:58]It can seem like such an...
[20:00]sort of thing to be doing alone in a room, talking to characters, whether they are yourself
[20:05]or others. But, you know, really, there's something about the diligence and discipline.
[20:11]And that is when the muse shows up. You can't wait for her. But if you do it each day,
[20:17]and I'm not a fast writer, I mean, on my best day, you and I have this conversation on
[20:21]my best day, I think I write one page. But if you do that every day, you know, in a year,
[20:27]that's 365 pages. But when you're, when you're really in it all the time, and that doesn't mean
[20:33]every day has to be a productive writing day. But when you're thinking about it, and familiar
[20:38]with it, and, you know, the themes interconnect, I'm a little bit like Adam wanting to connect
[20:43]the dots minus going up, that isn't, you know, it's just, that's how it all holds together. At
[20:48]least for me. I mean, I do know the people who go off to a hut and turn out a book in a month
[20:54]or, you know, in a night. And it's amazing. It's not me. I understand. And then my last thing is
[21:02]just you have such a gift of writing about the scenery and the, the place in Cape Cod and, you know,
[21:09]just all the, it's just such a sensory experience reading your work. This one and wild game, too,
[21:14]but it's, it's very, it's almost escapist in how, how many senses you evoke and all that. So
[21:21]is that a deliberate writing technique? Does it just happen? Do you focus on it? I feel like it's sort
[21:28]of just happens. I mean, that said, the Cape is an endlessly fascinating landscape for me. And I,
[21:35]I do have to start writing about other places. I'm sure because I don't know how many books I can
[21:40]do that are set there. But, you know, obviously it's a place of privilege and class, and some people
[21:44]live there, and some people somewhere there. But what really animates me is the natural world
[21:50]that's there. And, you know, it's constantly changing by the hour, by the minute, the weather,
[21:56]the tide, the light. And it's also just, it's so fragile. It's essentially a sandbar that is someday
[22:04]going to be swept back into the sea. And I think, I think our settings, you know, whether it's,
[22:10]you know, whatever environment we occupy, you know, mountains, plains, city, you know, these are
[22:15]all huge metaphors for life. But I, I find that when I'm writing, it's such a, you know, when you're
[22:22]in your character's head, it's such a break and a gift to be able to reflect deeply on a sensory
[22:29]experience. So you're going through plop, plop, plop. But you also, you know, put a more solid
[22:33]food in your mouth and your, you know, your, your cheeks, you feel that sour thing on the back
[22:38]from an apple or something. I mean, you just, all of that stuff just makes the reading experience,
[22:44]but it makes our living experience so much richer. And I think it's just about slowing down and
[22:49]noticing. It's like a meditation. Isn't that what you said to do when you meditate? Like, notice all
[22:54]that stuff? Yeah. I don't meditate. But I, you know, I think, I mean, honestly, I think of writing as,
[23:01]you know, meditating in some ways, because it's this thing I do for myself. And I do slow down.
[23:08]And I do think, I mean, I guess you're not supposed to think when you meditate, but I do, you know,
[23:13]you experience deeply when you're writing, I think, yeah, I think it counts.
[23:17]Okay. Now if I could just work exercising into that, I get my fingers going.
[23:25]Oh my gosh. Well, congratulations. You're just such a beautiful writer. Congrats on little
[23:29]monsters. And I'm so excited for it to come out. Oh, thank you so much. I really like having this
[23:35]conversation. All right. All right. Bye, Jim. Bye. Bye.
[23:40]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[23:45]follow me on Instagram at zibioens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my
[23:50]newsletter at zibioens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom
[23:55]every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[24:00]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.