Sara Evans, BORN TO FLY: A Memoir

[1:19]Zibby Owens: Hi. I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books. This thirty minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, three hundred and sixty five days a year for about thirty minutes. I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year in fiction and memoir. Our books are already out now. You can check it out on zippybooks.com. And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle features. That's at zippymag.com. We have classes at zippyclasses.com. And I recently opened a bookstore in LA called Zebby's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue at 11th Street in Santa Monica. I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings, but this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018. And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing. Enjoy. I'm re releasing Sarah Evans' episode today. I did this podcast with Sarah, who is a famous country music singer in COVID. And I read her book during one of the most harrowing experiences of my life when my husband Kyle's mother was battling COVID. And this is the book I read that helped get me through it. So I wanted to re release this episode from a very different place in my life, a very different time, and revisit the whole thing. I hope you enjoy it. I had the best conversation with country music star Sarah Evans. Her book, Born to Fly, a Memoir, is like one of my recent favorites. I just, I don't know what it was. It was early in the morning, it was 04:30, I opened her book, and I literally read the whole thing cover to cover for the next couple hours. Everything from her childhood accident to becoming a superstar to her body issues, her parenting advice. Anyway, I hope you enjoy our conversation as well. And a little bit more about Sarah for you, a multi platinum entertainer. Sarah Evans is at the top of her game as the fifth most played female artist in country radio in nearly the last two decades. Her five number one singles include No Place That Far, Suds in the Bucket, A Real Fine Place to Start, Born to Fly, and A Little Bit Stronger, which spent two weeks in the top spot and was certified platinum by the RIAA, whatever that is. Sarah's stunning country voice, according to Rolling Stone, has earned her the prestigious Academy of Country Music Top Female Vocalist accolade, as well as numerous American Music Awards, Billboard Music Awards, Country Music Association, CMT, and Grammy Award nominations. In addition, the CMA awarded video of the year honors for her hit chart topping single Born to Fly from her landmark double platinum album of the same name, which celebrates its twentieth anniversary in 2020. She also had best selling studio albums called Real Fine Place and Restless, as well as a gold certified project Stronger and No Place That Far. Copy That is her first solo record in nearly three years, which was released on her own Born to Fly Records on May 2020, which is a 13 song collection.

[4:21]Sara Evans: Welcome. And also, by the way, between her and her husband, they have seven kids. So enjoy. Welcome, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books. Thank you for having me. I love this title.

[4:33]Zibby Owens: Oh, thank you. I loved your book. I literally, like, woke up really early one morning and took it outside and sat in, like, my favorite chair with no one bothering me and read it, like, cover to cover and loved it. So I just No way. Yeah. Usually, I'm interrupted. I have four kids. I'm usually interrupted all the time and things happen, but I just was able to do it, I guess, because I got up so early. But anyway That's awesome. Okay. So what did you think? Oh, gosh, I loved it. I really loved it. But I have to say, like, I feel like I keep making mistakes, especially the parts about the parenting. I'm like, oh, no. I think I'm going against one of Sarah's rules today. Like, we're not I'm like, I don't have a napkin.

[5:17]Sara Evans: Oh, yeah. Do not let them sit down and eat without a napkin. Otherwise, they'll wipe it on their pants and then you'll miss a grease stain and it'll set in their shorts and stay there forever. Yeah, I know. I know.

[5:31]Zibby Owens: I know all the things you say are so right. And then sometimes I don't do them. And then I feel like As long as you're not spoiling your kids to the point where people don't like them. That's the main thing. That's true. Okay. Well, people still like them, I think so. You know, there were so many things to talk about in your book and your career and how you built your life and your family and all of this inspiring, amazing stuff. What I was particularly drawn to was your whole blended family, perhaps because, you know, I'm remarried. I have four kids. And I loved all the stuff you talked about about being a step parent and how the role of a step parent is not to act like a a parent. And I just and how you say the press likes to think that you're a mom of seven, but really you're a mom of three and a stepmom to four and how there's such a big difference. So I was just hoping you could talk a little more about that. Yeah. That part was

[6:21]Sara Evans: really important to me to write because having been a child of divorce myself and knowing how difficult it was like when my father moved out, and then he remarried, he had a stepdaughter that was the same age as me. So that was incredibly hard for me to know that, know, I wasn't able to live with my dad and have him all the time. But But this other girl who was my same age did and it was heartbreaking to me. And my dad did not handle it right. My stepmother did not handle it right. And then they ultimately divorced and he remarried and had two stepchildren. So I'm like, well, here it is, you know, two other sets of families, you know, got to have my dad, and I lost him at 12, you know, because of their divorce. And it's been one of the really most painful aspects of my life. You know, anytime I think about my dad and the way that I felt like so abandoned by him. And so I really wanted to write about step parenting and, you know, I knew that, you know, when Jay and I got married, and his kids would be having all of those feelings like, okay, our dad is now raising three other children and living with three other children, he's going to be closer to them than he is with us. And I really wanted to make sure that that was not something that they felt. And, you know, so I talked about how one of the things I did was get all their names embroidered on their pillows so that when they came to our house every other weekend, and every other week in the summer and holidays that they would know like this is my space, my spot, it's got my name on it. And I think that just having that visual for them, you know, I just tried to do little things like that. But mainly, you know, I never tried to be their mom, I wasn't looking to have four more children. And you know what I mean? Raise four more children. I have three children. And so I never wanted to assume, you know, I'm your new mom. And when you come here, I'm your mom and you need to call me mom and act like I'm your mom. I really didn't want that. I wanted it to be exactly what it was. You know, I'm married to your dad and it's my job to facilitate

[8:39]Zibby Owens: you having an awesome weekend with him. That's so nice of you. You should be like the spokesperson for stepmoms. I really should and I I really could be because, know, and also I

[8:52]Sara Evans: so I never had the the situation of my kids because my ex husband never remarried and my kids, you know, almost never see him and saw him. And so I didn't ever have to go through that experience of having my kids be with another woman, but I was sensitive to that. And it did bother me every time the press would try to paint this picture that, you know, I'm raising seven kids. How do you do it? Blah blah blah. Because I'm like, I'm not raising them. Their mom is raising them. And Jay and I have them every other weekend, you know, and it was something that I didn't want to offend their mom. Right. So that was a tricky situation to navigate through. But, you know, the main thing I did was just play sports with them and have fun with them. And and also, you know, but on the flip side of that, it's hard to be a stepmom because you don't ever ever get the nod that the real mom gets. So no matter how much you do for them, or try to make them, you know, feel loved and trying to let them know that you're not trying to take their dad, that your kids aren't trying to take their dad from them, you never will ever get the true nod that they give to their own mom, which is perfectly normal. But sometimes you feel like, you know, wow, I'm doing so much and making such an effort and getting nothing in return. You know, there were those emotions too at times, but, you know, everybody, especially the children are innocent victims. And, you know, the bottom line is divorce is just a very destructive thing, very destructive, and you should avoid it at all costs.

[10:34]Zibby Owens: Too late for me.

[10:36]Sara Evans: Me too. But, you know, and half the population. So I don't feel that bad, guess. But, you know, it's still No. You shouldn't feel bad. I'm just saying, you know No, I'm kidding. Definitely something that shouldn't should not be taken lightly and not be done quickly.

[10:51]Zibby Owens: Yes. No, I completely agree with you. It's it's it's really horrific. You know, one of the other things in your book that I thought was so awesome was your complete, like, ownership of the fact that you're athletic because so often women just don't talk about that. You can either be some sort of a female athlete and then the athletes talk about that in their books. But somebody like you who's like a basically a rock star doesn't always have to you know, it doesn't always come out. But like, hey, you know what? I'm a really awesome, you know, softball player. I can play tennis like really well or whatever. So I just loved that.

[11:27]Sara Evans: Well, thank you. It's it's kind of a running joke because I do always brag about what a great athlete I am. But it's funny because, you know, people tend to like box you in. And so they think of me as being a singer and that's it. You know, you're a great singer, but it's fun to sometimes say, well, I have other talents too. And I absolutely love playing sports. I love to play tennis. I love to play basketball. I love to play softball. And that's, you know, it's it's just something that like, I was doing an interview about an hour ago, and I talked about how I'm such a great athlete. And the guy was like, and you're very humble too.

[12:03]Zibby Owens: And I'm like, no, I don't see it as bragging. But like you said, it's just an unknown fact that is fun to tell people about. No. I that's not very nice. I mean no. I know. I hate when people say that. Oh, and you're Oh my gosh. No. I think it's amazing. And, you know, it's like my little daughter is sort of like in here with me now, and she hears that it's it's great. I want to raise daughters who feel awesome about being athletic, and it's really important and to have role models who don't just sing. I mean, there are plenty of, you know, role models who are amazing in that regard. But to do both, that's just amazing. I mean, it's just great. It's just great. You know, I find that a lot of athletes and musicians,

[12:45]Sara Evans: they kind of are connected. Like, if a lot of times if you're a great musician, you're also a great athlete. And if you're a great athlete, you have a lot of musical talent. So like my husband is a former NFL football player. He's an amazing, most amazing athlete I've ever seen. But he also is very musical. He can dance so well and he has perfect rhythm and he can sing. So I think there's something in the brain that says, you know, like, my brain is telling my body do this and you do it and being a singer is being an athlete. And I just went and got my vocal cords checked last year to make sure everything looks good. And he was like, your vocal cords are pearly white and they look like the vocal cords of a 20 year old. And he said, so yeah, you're basically a professional athlete. And because your vocal cords are a muscle, so it's just like a throwing arm. You know, your vocal cords are doing something basically athletic. So it's just interesting to me the ties to that.

[13:52]Zibby Owens: Yeah, for sure. The brain is such a funny thing. I mean, actually I found other things. Like, I found a lot of writers are also great photographers or they're like all these things that kind of like go Exactly. In

[14:04]Sara Evans: Like, if you're a if you're a makeup artist, usually you're you're an incredible, like, painter and you can draw. And, like, all the connections there. Totally. Fascinating.

[14:15]Zibby Owens: It's kind of not fair. It's like, really, your husband gets to be an NFL athlete and also the rest of it. Do you know what mean? Like, maybe I know. You know, scattered those skills around to other people who can't do either thing.

[14:28]Sara Evans: But you know what? I

[14:30]Zibby Owens: those are really the only two things I'm good at, music and athletics. But also, I think I'm a great mom. That's great. I bet you are a great mom. Yeah. You certainly, like, not shamed me, but you've given me great advice in this book that I feel like I needed to hear. So anyway.

[14:46]Sara Evans: I'm so glad. What's the biggest piece of advice that you feel like you needed to hear?

[14:52]Zibby Owens: Like interviewing you now. No. I know. You know, your whole, like, keeping the kids humble, doing chores around the house, like, not letting them just, sit around, like, you go get stuff. You you know, don't let them be complacent. All of the, like you know, down to the like I said before, just even something as simple as a napkin or sitting down and having a a meal and enforcing all of that. It's I mean, I know it all. It's just I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if it's I think I can't remember who what speaker

[15:24]Sara Evans: it is or if I got it from that. You know, the the rules that George Washington wrote, what were those called? Do you know what I'm talking about?

[15:33]Zibby Owens: No, not really. I mean, I've heard it. I know I don't know what the name would be, but It's a famous like little book that he wrote as a kid.

[15:41]Sara Evans: And it talks about it's basically like good manners and what to do and not to do like common sense. And one of the things is, you know, don't make extra noise or whistle or, you know, tap your fingers on something or, you know, when you're around people because that's annoying and that's something that George Washington thought was important, you know, to and one of the other things was I think I think this is where I heard this or read it, but he said, you know, don't ever stop like doing the things that are important. In other words, like it is important to get a plate and sit down with a meal, like do things that are proper as often as you can so that you don't just, you know, totally make your life be so basic that are not basic because I almost want to go back to the basics, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah.

[16:35]Zibby Owens: Now, like in your book, when you were saying you said here, I'll just read you a passage that was particularly relevant. You said, so all you're doing when you refuse to discipline is ensuring that your precious child will have a hard time in life and in relationships. Why would any loving parent do that? Because they are being selfish, in my opinion. They are being lazy and parenting in ways that make them feel good, like letting your child play Xbox all day. Why do some parents do this? Because it's easier than making them stop. And that's just so true. And at the end, you say, when kids are little, they're gonna cry. So let them cry. You're doing your job, all caps. They will thank you for it later. When you don't push back on a child who's being willful or disrespectful, they sense that you don't really care, and that is heartbreaking. Yeah. I I mean, while I read this, my son was, like, playing video games all day, but I was now he's back in school, so I feel better. But I was, like, literally, like, oh gosh. She sees that I'm, like, you know, not letting my kid.

[17:25]Sara Evans: Well, it's so true. You know, if your child is born this this blank slate, okay? And it's so sad to me when you see parents who won't discipline their child, afraid to upset their child. And so they are parenting in ways that make them feel good. And with so many divorced families in the world, there are so many divorced dads who aren't raising their children when they have them and the time that they have with them, who aren't raising their children the way that they would have. But now they're raising them out of guilt, out of you know, I don't get much time with them. So I want everything to be great. But I'm like, that's selfish on your part. Because, you know, the child did not ask to be raised in a divorce situation. And so you still need to be that dad be hard on them, discipline them, spank them if they need a spanking, all of those things. You can't parent in ways that that just benefit you emotionally. You have to parent in ways that benefit your kids long term.

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[20:48]Zibby Owens: Another part of your story that I related to a lot was sort of was how you talked about your weight gain when you had kids and the pressure to, like, get fit again and sort of just your lifelong relationship with your body. Where where do you stand on that now? I'm

[21:05]Sara Evans: not any better. You know, I have a daily struggle with food, you know, I feel like I really do have somewhat of an eating disorder in the sense that, you know, every time I eat, I'm mad at myself. And every time I eat, I guilt myself, even if I'm starving and, you know, just about to drop over from hunger. But then every time after I eat, I have this remorse and fear like what I hope I didn't just gain weight or now am I gonna look fat for the rest of the day or tomorrow? So it's a very unhealthy relationship with food and very unhealthy body image and I work on it a lot. And since I wrote this book last spring, this past May, both of my girls decided to sit me down and confront me about it. And they were just like, you know, and I it was very difficult for me because I had to swallow my pride. But I, you know, I can't be a hypocrite. I talk in the book about you have to apologize to your children when you've done something wrong. And you have to not be afraid that that will undermine your authority because it won't, it will make them trust you more. So they basically said, you have to stop talking bad about yourself. You have to stop talking about I'm fat or I'm skinny. And they really got on to me hard. And they said, know, you have two teenage daughters, you cannot do that. And you're beautiful and you're our mom and we only see beauty when we look at you. So when every time you criticize yourself and criticize your body or criticize that, you know, something about you is aging, that hurts us. And it's also probably causing harm to us psychologically. So you have to stop. So I really have tried a lot and I try to be so mindful when I'm around them, not to ever say, oh, I feel so fat or I'm trying so hard to be skinny. But it's definitely I'm a work in progress. I'm I'm not

[23:05]Zibby Owens: at all where I should be. Well, I mean, there are no shoulds on this journey. It's like a life long thing. Right? Everybody Yep. Most women are struggling in some way, shape, or form either I mean, it's it's just it's easy to say I should be over this by now, but, you know, that's not the way it works. I think that's amazing. I think it's just really I mean, it shows what kind of mom you are to raise daughters who would then sit you down to have a conversation like that. You know? It's like that's that's really sort of self aware and mature of them to be able to talk to you about it. How did like, were you sort of proud of them at the same time? Like, feel like I would be like, hurt and proud.

[23:44]Sara Evans: I was, I was, I was hurt. My feelings were hurt. Sorry. And I was tempted to be defensive. I wanted to defend myself and be like, well, you have no idea what it feels like, you know, to be in your 40s and you guys can eat whatever you want and you're skinny. Both of my daughters are stunningly beautiful and they have, you know, very naturally skinny bodies. And so I wanted to be defensive. You don't know what it's like, but I basically just like was pinching myself the whole time. Like this response could mean everything. And so I responded with, you're right. You're right. I don't know why this makes me cry. Oh. Sorry. I'm probably just exhausted.

[24:32]Zibby Owens: I understand. I understand. I mean, look. It's hard to admit our vulnerabilities, and it's hard for our kids to see our weaknesses.

[24:40]Sara Evans: And yet they're on display in front of them more than anybody else. You know? And it's Yeah. That's right. And we can because I feel like I'm just entering I'm just entering this. So, like, I'm I'm you know, feel like I'm losing even more control of how my body responds to food as you age and your metabolism slows down. And so in some ways I'm like, Oh my God, I'm just beginning this fight. And now it's a whole new fight because I used to be able to say, Well, I'm going to starve myself for this video shoot so that I look great. And it's hard because, you know, models and actors are rail thin, yet women are told women are told two things at the same time. You should look like this in order to look like this model does in this free people dress. But at the same time, we're shamed for talking about our bodies and, Oh, you shouldn't talk about that in front of your daughters because you know, it might cause them to be anorexic or whatever. But we're given two messages at the same time. And it's not fair because, you know, if they really want to make young girls have a healthier attitude about their body image, then they need to use more realistic models for their clothes. But they're not gonna do that because the clothes won't look as good. So it's a really, really tough thing to overcome and figure out. I couldn't agree more. I'm 44 years old and I'm like, used to be able to eat, you know, this cookie every night or whatever it is I'm, you know, currently, you know, treating myself You

[26:20]Zibby Owens: know, I used to be able to go a couple days without working out and nothing would happen. And now I'm like, like everything is tight today. Really? Just because of that same cookie?

[26:29]Sara Evans: Absolutely. I mean, I feel like, you know, in all these years of not eating and then eating and not eating, my metabolism is really shot. But you do. I mean, honestly, two days of overeating or even eating like a normal person can potentially undo any strides I've made and just make me feel totally fat. And so again, it's a it's a really, really tough thing. I don't know that I'll ever be over it. I feel like, you know, if I'm skinny, all of my best memories in life were times when I was skinny. All my worst memories in life were times when I was fat. And that's how I divide it. And it's terrible. It's crazy to think that way. But when I'm skinny, life is great. You know, I love clothes. And so when I'm skinny, there's no stopping me. I'm on top of the world. But if I feel fat or I am fat, then I feel like a complete loser. So I probably need therapy.

[27:33]Zibby Owens: I mean, I could recommend a few people. I actually know I'm really interested in all of this and have had close friends and everybody really struggle with inpatient eating disorders, to be honest. And I worked for the Yale Center for Eating and Weight Disorders and almost became a psychologist. And of course, course, I've had my own struggles with my own body forever. And just, you know, recently, I've been like, well, you know what? Like, I mean, I'm not like you. I'm not I'm not on stage, and I'm not you know, my my how I look, like, who cares? You know, I'm, behind a microphone here. And, you know, I don't have a public persona like you do. So it's totally different. But just as like a woman, I'm kinda like, well, you know what? Like, am I happier, thinner? Like, I'm pretty happy right now, and I'm definitely not at my, like, low weight, you know? So maybe maybe it's not. Maybe that's not the answer. Right? So maybe I am gonna be this way. Maybe now I'm thinner than I'm going to be. Maybe I bet you go, I look like this. Right? You just I don't know. I did this whole study a couple years ago for an article I was writing where I because my grandmother is still she's 97. And until a couple years ago, now she's starting to have dementia, but we would be having dinner and she'd be like, Oh god, I shouldn't have that cake. Oh my gosh. Like,

[28:49]Sara Evans: I look as fat as that woman? And I'd be like, Goggie, come on. Like, does this never end? And so then I started wondering, does it ever end? Like, don't think it will ever end for me. And, you know, I was raised that way too. Like my granny was always talking about, you know, stay thin and don't get fat. And my mom would say, you know, you're just 10 pounds away from being famous. And that, of course, was a joke. But, you know, have you seen marvelous Mrs. Maisel? Yes, of course. You know how she would get up every morning and measure her waist every morning. Yeah, sure that she had not, know, grown an inch or gain any weight whatsoever. I feel like my life is well, my weight and my body is one of, you know, probably what I think about more than anything all the time on a daily basis. And so I just think it's a struggle that I mean, it's not debilitating in any way, shape or form, but it's definitely distracting.

[29:44]Zibby Owens: Yep. Well, look, everybody we all have our things. Right? I mean, everyone has their their things and I all we can do is just kind of work on it. Right? It doesn't mean we're gonna fix it, and it doesn't mean that sometimes our innermost struggles aren't publicly showing. Right? And that's the thing with weight too. I feel like everything, you know, other things, maybe addiction or I don't know. Other things you can kind of hide. Right? Weight is like if you're having a bad week or three or eight months or whatever, people see it.

[30:18]Sara Evans: Yeah, exactly. Anyway camera all the time is, you know, definitely adds to it and having to be on stage. And, you know, if I see a bad picture of me on stage, like I talked about this in the book, it can ruin my day. I mean, I'll never forget, I'm sitting here with my manager right now. And one time, he and my stylist and I were on the tour bus in this country weekly magazine came out and with a photoshoot that I had done in an interview for the magazine. And they didn't give us, you know, final approval on the pictures. And so one of the pictures in there was absolutely terrible. It was like from the back. And I had on like really tight jeans. So I had like back fat and it was it was so devastating to me. And they both couldn't really grasp like why. I mean, I think even my stylist kind of laughed about it. I went back to the room and in the back of my bus and sobbed like I sobbed in my bed because I was so embarrassed, so embarrassed

[31:15]Zibby Owens: by that. You know, I think that it's so important to be talking about this because like here you are and we started off talking about how great you were at sports and how athletic a body you have, right? Like you're so good. Your vocal cords and your athleticism and you're singing and you have all these amazing skills and things your body's given you. And yet like a little thing, like a bad picture. And I understand why it gets you because I feel the same way. I get it. It's just such a shame that so many of us feel this way, especially you, given all you've accomplished. I mean, I feel like so many people out there would be like, oh, if only I could be Sarah Evans for like a minute. Right? And here you are, like looking at one picture and crying. It breaks my heart, honestly. You know, what does it mean to be success? What does it mean to be a successful woman? You know, all that stuff. Yeah. And there yeah, there are definitely different aspects and different levels. And, you know, your life is like a big circle

[32:12]Sara Evans: and you've got all these like, you know, points to your life and then all the stuff in the middle. So that is just, you know, one aspect of my life. But overall, though, you know, I'm incredibly grateful, you know, for having been given this talent to sing and this life that I've had. And, you know, my children are the biggest blessing in my life. So I am incredibly grateful. And again, like I said, it's not debilitating. It's just, you know, something that'll probably always be a part of who I am. I just I want to be skinny and that's it, you know, but I think so does the world, you know, so do 90% of the women in the world. But you know, I felt it was necessary to talk about in the book to

[32:57]Zibby Owens: say to other women like I get it and I'm right there with you. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. It's so it's great. I'm so glad that you did it and that you're sort of opening up the conversation. I mean, it's really, really important. And now in addition to all your other stuff, you've written this great book. I mean, it's it's a really great book, and it helps people relate and feel less alone and all the rest of it. Having written the book, like, would you have any advice to aspiring authors out there? Oh, gosh, I don't know that I'm qualified to give advice as to an author, you know, because I can't even imagine writing an amazing novel. Like recently just read East of Eden again, and I've read it like four times. I can't even imagine the talent that it takes to do that.

[33:43]Sara Evans: But I would just say with an aspiring anyone, you know, going into anything, you know, my biggest lesson that I've learned in life is that you have to be fully committed to something and willing to work very, very hard. And also, you have to surround yourself with great people, people who, you know, truly understand you and get you and love you and want to support and advance your career, but at the same time understand who you are as a human being and what your priorities are. So whatever you aspire to do, make sure you connect to to really great people.

[34:18]Zibby Owens: That's excellent advice. That's really great. Well, Sarah, thank you for talking. I'm sorry I made you cry.

[34:26]Sara Evans: Oh, it's fine.

[34:27]Zibby Owens: I'm really happy that we got a chance to talk. And I find your, you know, your candid thoughts about this, you know, personally just super helpful. And, you know, it's something that doesn't get talked about enough, really, especially for women our age, I feel like. So anyway, thank you for opening up and Thank you. Thanks for writing the book. This was like a therapy session. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Of course. It was my pleasure. Have a great day. Bye, Pfizer. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.