Nguyễn Phan Quế Mai, DUST CHILD
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[1:03]Nagoyenne, fun, K. May, is the author of Death's Child, born and raised in Vietnam.
[1:09]She is the author of the International Bestseller, The Mountain Sing, runner up for the 2021
[1:14]Dayton Literary Peace Prize, winner of the 2020 Bookbrowse Best debut award, the 2021 International
[1:21]Book Awards, the 2021 Penn Oakland, Josephine Miles Literary Award, and the 2020 Lennon
[1:27]Literary Award Fellowship for Fiction.
[1:29]She has published 12 books of poetry, fiction, and nonfiction in Vietnamese and English,
[1:33]and has received some of the top literary prizes in Vietnam, including the poetry of the
[1:37]year 2010, from the Hanoi Writers Association.
[1:40]Her writing has been translated into 20 languages and has appeared in major publications,
[1:44]including The New York Times.
[1:46]She is a PhD in creative writing from Lancaster University.
[1:49]Her new novel, Dustchild, has been selected as a best book of 2023 by readers digest
[1:55]and cosmopolitan, a best book of March slash spring 2023 by the Los Angeles Times, Amazon
[2:01]Library Journal, the Chicago Review of Books, Ms. magazine, book page, Apple Books, The
[2:05]Times, Red Magazine, The Buzz magazines, and Sydney Morning Herald.
[2:09]It has also been voted by booksellers around the U.S. as an indie-next great read.
[2:13]She is a tireless advocate for the rights of disadvantaged groups in Vietnam and was named
[2:17]by Forbes Vietnam, one of the 20 inspiring women of 2021.
[2:22]Welcome, Kamey.
[2:23]Thank you so much for coming on Monster.
[2:25]I have time to read books to discuss Dustchild, your amazing new novel.
[2:30]Thank you so much, ZB, for having me on your podcast.
[2:34]I have so much admiration for you and the energy that you've been having,
[2:38]congratulations on your recent award and the opening of your bookshop.
[2:45]You give so much to the world and thank you for championing writers as well.
[2:49]You've done so much for us.
[2:50]Thank you.
[2:52]Thanks for saying that.
[2:54]We'll talk, I mean, talk about energy.
[2:56]You worked on Dustchild for what seven years with so much research and your PhD and all
[3:02]of it.
[3:03]I'm so impressed.
[3:04]I was really moved by the book and I even was talking about it on a podcast I did recently
[3:09]with Beth Ann Patrick about how much we both really enjoyed the book.
[3:13]So yeah, I'm super impressed and you know, it's really good, really, really good.
[3:19]But you probably know that.
[3:21]So much, you know, writing this book was challenging because first of all, you know,
[3:27]English is not my first language.
[3:30]So I only had the chance to learn English from my eighth grade and I, you know, and
[3:36]but for years I worked as a translator and I was looking for a novel to translate until
[3:42]one day I told myself, why don't I write that novel myself.
[3:47]And that started the crazy journey of the mountain sing.
[3:50]So when I wrote the mountain sing, I, for years, I couldn't find an agent because, you
[3:55]know, people thought the story was too difficult to sell.
[3:58]And then, you know, when the world tells you no, you just keep going.
[4:04]So I kept fighting to tell my story.
[4:06]So I went on to write Dustchild before I had an agent in a publisher.
[4:11]So it kept working on it and it also took me a long time.
[4:15]But I was really compelled by the real life stories that I witnessed because, you know,
[4:20]during the past several years, I helped people reunite in, you know, doing the Vietnam War,
[4:26]so many mixed race children were born and a lot of them were abandoned.
[4:31]And many of them, tens of thousands of them have been looking for their parents.
[4:35]And you know, having the chance to work with them has been a privilege.
[4:40]And I saw so much courage, you know, so much hope in the, that I was compelled to write
[4:46]this novel to document what they have gone through, the immorations, the mixed race people
[4:52]who are, you know, in Vietnam and also their parents, you know, what drove their parents
[4:58]into the situations where they had to abandon their kids.
[5:03]Wow.
[5:04]Well, this is such a perfect example of how taking a specific story of, of like one
[5:11]person's life, a few people here, a few different people's lives, how it takes history
[5:16]and just changes it so much and from something abstract to so specific and emotional
[5:24]and all of it, whether it's, you know, feeling like I'm the man on the former helicopter
[5:30]pilot going back to Vietnam and having PTSD and trying to get through this horrible
[5:34]plane ride or being in the field with blisters on my hands.
[5:38]I mean, it's so real.
[5:40]The way you write, like it's just so sensory oriented and well described.
[5:45]I don't know.
[5:46]It felt just absolutely immersive and educational at the same time.
[5:51]Oh, thank you so much for saying that it means a lot to me.
[5:55]I mean, you know, a lot of the descriptions come from the real life scenes I have seen.
[6:00]You know, you just talked about my writing about the American veteran then who returns
[6:06]to Vietnam after more than 46 years and unknown to his wife who is traveling with him.
[6:14]He has tried in Vietnam with a Vietnamese woman during the war that now he wants to look
[6:19]for.
[6:20]You know, in writing about him, it was challenging, but also I had to write it because
[6:25]for years I've been working with American veterans, you know, I accompanied them to their
[6:31]visits to the battlefield for more methods.
[6:34]I translated for their reunion with former enemies and also, you know, actually quite
[6:41]a few, you know, well known American writers lost their youth in Vietnam.
[6:47]You know, for example, Bruce Guigo or Tim O'Brien, they were like young men when they
[6:53]had to go to Vietnam.
[6:55]And you know, Bruce Guigo who is a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for poetry told me he
[7:01]lost his youth in Vietnam, but again, his voice after Vietnam, he started to write about
[7:08]the horror of war to call for the war to end.
[7:12]So you know, so I was very much compelled to translate, you know, the writing of writers
[7:17]like Bruce Guigo into Vietnamese.
[7:20]And I took him around Vietnam and held events and poetry readings for him.
[7:26]And that was one of the most life-changing experiences I had because, you know, the people
[7:31]who once fought against him came together at these poetry readings and they shared
[7:37]a common humanity, you know, and it's just unbelievable.
[7:42]And you know, the story is that I wouldn't at these events really changed me as a person
[7:46]too.
[7:47]And I was very much compelled, you know, to write about war to call for peace because
[7:52]I think as a human race, we have done enough to each other, look at the war and you
[7:57]grin at the moment.
[7:58]It's death.
[7:59]It's just like every day, I think about the citizens, you know, who have to survive
[8:06]all of the forms and the difficult situation that they have to live under and it's devastating.
[8:13]And as a child, you know, I remember when I was six years old, I was standing on my village
[8:18]road and I was looking at the, it was just after the Vietnam War, you know, and the
[8:24]war, you know, killed like three million people, Vietnamese, Americans, you know, Cambodian
[8:30]elections, you know, people from so many nationalities.
[8:34]And you know, at a time, I was small and I was looking, standing on my village road and
[8:38]I was looking at the bomb graters around me and the people who had lost their arms and
[8:43]legs and relatives.
[8:44]And I told myself as a little girl, the human race could not be so stupid to wage another
[8:51]war.
[8:52]I firmly believed in that and I cannot believe that how many wars are still going on now.
[8:59]It's true.
[9:00]It's, it's, it's really unthinkable like that we still are doing that in this day and
[9:05]age and it's just horrible.
[9:07]You know, you had one comment in the book to your point about meeting former enemies that
[9:13]that part of the reunion is getting to know people who they had had to dehumanize in their
[9:18]heads so that they could get through the killing, like there's no other way they just
[9:23]had to believe something different that these people couldn't also have feelings and
[9:27]emotions and all that.
[9:28]I'm now extrapolating, but yeah, but tell me about that.
[9:32]Exactly.
[9:33]You know, like dehumanization is the weapon of war, you know, for soldiers to kill the
[9:38]other side easily.
[9:40]The armies had to use propaganda to dehumanize the other side that, you know, that we are
[9:45]not equal that the other side, you know, I mean, you know, growing up in Vietnam.
[9:50]I was told that, you know, American soldiers didn't have feelings, they were just killing
[9:55]machines.
[9:56]I was told that and I mean, you know, in our tech.
[10:00]textbooks. They were really horrific things about, you know, all of the horror that could
[10:04]happen. Of course, some of that is true. But I think as a writer, I wanted, you know, to bring
[10:10]in the forefront the humanity of all sides, you know, because the soldiers who had to participate
[10:17]in the world, they were young, you know, and they would touch different things. And I mean,
[10:22]if we look at everyone in their human capacity, we would have more human compassion, you know,
[10:29]in my first book, the mountain sing, I have this young girl who loves reading. And he,
[10:37]and during the war in Vietnam, when her parents were at war with Americans, she was at home waiting
[10:45]for their return. And then she and her grandma brought home, you know, books from America,
[10:52]you know, that had been translated into Vietnamese and who started reading these books. And she
[10:58]fell in love with the American people with American culture. And she had resented them before.
[11:05]And then she told herself, if everyone is willing to read each other and see into the light of
[11:11]other culture, there would be no war on Earth. You know, on the contrary, I'm so, you know,
[11:17]there have been American veterans who told me that, you know, they were told to look down
[11:25]on Vietnamese culture, you know, when they were about to come to Vietnam, you know, for example,
[11:31]there's this veteran who told me that on his plan to Vietnam, he was worried about killing Vietnamese
[11:39]people because he was a young man, you know, going to Vietnam and not knowing by the country. And his
[11:46]leader actually told him, don't worry about killing the Vietnamese that had been at war with
[11:54]other people for hundreds of years. They don't love their families like we love ours, you know.
[12:01]And then when he arrived in Vietnam, you know, he didn't have a chance to make friends
[12:05]with Vietnamese people. And you know, and it's, you know, sometimes when we do that to each other,
[12:11]you know, and I think I think it's really, you know, my viewpoint is that we are all children of
[12:17]mother earth. And we should love each other more than then find reasons to fight against each other.
[12:24]Because wars are really costly too. And it costs taxpayers money, not just taxpayers money,
[12:30]but also, you know, lives and also drama that is inherited for generations to cost.
[12:36]The costs are not properly evaluated perhaps at the outset.
[12:41]Well, the whole notion of the emirations who were treated so badly, especially children of black
[12:48]Americans with Vietnamese who were so degraded and taunted at school. And you have one scene where
[12:56]a young boy is scrubbing frantically to try to take his skin color off, which spoke my heart.
[13:03]And how even though they wanted to meet their parents or leave the country, they had to get
[13:09]a letter from their proving who their parents were, which of course is impossible.
[13:16]So they were all first, you know, just treated so terribly and then prevented from seeking a better
[13:22]life. It's like the worst of all worlds for some of the people. Tell me what it was like in
[13:28]your conversations with them as grownups coming to terms with their childhood and how they make
[13:34]sense of it all now. Mm. So when I started researching into this novel, I was shocked to know how
[13:42]many of them and how many emirations are illiterate because they did not have the chance to school.
[13:48]So that's giant is actually the title comes from the term, the term in Vietnamese children of the
[13:56]desk, which is used for emirations, you know, homeless emirations because they were homeless.
[14:03]So they were called boy dye or the dust of life. But, you know, this book proves that no one
[14:09]is the children of the dust, you know, everyone deserves love and respect. So from the black
[14:14]emirations in my novel, even though he went through a lot, but, you know, he's a capacitor,
[14:20]he's his musician or Vietnamese traditional music. So I want to write beyond these people as victims.
[14:27]And as you said, you know, they have been through so much, you know, first of all, a lot of them
[14:32]were rejected by the society because they were considered by many people as remnants of the
[14:38]American invasion or remnants of the enemy or children of the enemy. So they were looked down
[14:44]up on and also a lot of people considered that, you know, they were children of the women who
[14:50]who slept around with American soldiers. You know, so these emirations were very much rejected
[14:56]and discriminated against. And there were a lot of racism against black emirations as well.
[15:01]And, you know, because of that discrimination and racism, the American government
[15:08]implemented something called the American Homecoming Act that allowed
[15:13]emirations to immigrate to America. So, you know, with the implementation of the act in the
[15:20]early 90s, emirations could immigrate to the US and could bring along family members.
[15:27]So, you know, many Vietnamese at that time tried to escape Vietnam. So they started to use
[15:32]Ameritians as tickets, you know, so they were buying and selling Ameritians. Can you believe it?
[15:38]So in my book, I document this really horrific experiences that because Ameritians who were
[15:45]young and illiterate needed help to get out of Vietnam because paperwork was very difficult,
[15:51]so they needed help. So they were tricked into, you know, accepting strangers as family members
[15:57]to be able to go to the US. And, you know, so overnight from the children of the dust,
[16:03]they became children of gold. So they were sold and they were traded and quite a few of them in
[16:09]reality went to the US with people who when they succeeded in driving the US abandoned them once
[16:18]because, you know, they did not consider them as adopted family members. So Ameritians have certainly,
[16:24]you know, gone through a lot of trauma, have suffered so much. But I have seen so much courage in them,
[16:30]you know, in my book, I also talk about successful Ameritians, you know, some of them have become
[16:35]really wonderful singers and I know an Ameritian in real life who's an award-winning film director.
[16:43]So, you know, I think everyone, regardless of our situation and our, we have something to contribute
[16:51]to our society and I want to highlight, you know, the humanity and the incredible things that Ameritians
[16:58]can contribute to our society if we accept them and endorse them and embrace them and they should
[17:05]be embraced. What is it like now? Like, is there still stigma attached or has enough time gone by
[17:13]that it's not like that anymore? There's stigma attached, you know, I mean, Vietnam is, you know,
[17:21]in Vietnam, various marriages are still quite uncommon. So, misarrased people are still,
[17:27]you know, still look back very differently and especially, you know, misplace like half black people,
[17:34]you know, there's still racism against King Kalah, for example. So, I talk about that in, you know,
[17:40]more novel, including in the current situation at the moment, the situation is better, but because
[17:48]Ameritians have experienced discrimination and racism for so many years, they lack access to a
[17:55]lot of opportunities like the Ameritian families that I know in Vietnam, quite a few of them
[18:01]are struggling to meet and that children also can't afford to go to school because if the parents
[18:08]are poor and literate, you know, and live in a countryside and that don't have access to opportunities,
[18:14]you know, this will lead to consequences with that children as well. So, this situation is not that
[18:23]easy. So, most of the Ameritians have actually migrated to the US. So, in the US, quite a few
[18:30]of them are doing well, but also quite a few homeless Ameritians, more Ameritians who are
[18:37]struggling with trauma that they carry with them. How did you take care of your own feelings
[18:47]and emotions while you were digging through this and working in person with people, PTSD and
[18:55]all of it? And these reunions, how do you leave that translator job or in this case when you're
[19:01]actually writing the book and move on with your own life? How do you process all of that?
[19:07]You know, this book is also, it's very much about trauma, but it's also finding the pathway to
[19:12]healing. So, you know, I talk about, you know, for me, I balance difficult, you know, research
[19:19]process and writing about trauma with music, with poetry, with joy, with nature. So, I also bring
[19:25]a lot of that into the book, you know, and I also have fun writing against colonialism, you know,
[19:32]the colonization of Vietnam. For example, Mr. Tien, the tour guide in my novel, says this about the
[19:39]French invasion of Vietnam. When France invaded Vietnam, they brought red. We took the bread and made
[19:47]it better. So, if you have eaten Vietnamese, you know, sandwiched by me, I hope you agree with me
[19:54]that it's better than French sandwich. So, Vietnamese, you know, that's why I said, went from...
[20:00]Uninvaded Vietnam, we, they brought bread,
[20:03]we took the bread and made it better.
[20:05]So Vietnamese sandwich,
[20:07]Bankme is made from French baguette,
[20:09]you know, we learned that the way to make the bread from them
[20:13]because traditionally we eat rice only,
[20:15]but we took the bread from the French
[20:17]and now we turn it into Bankme, you know.
[20:20]In that French baguette, we put, you know, roast the pork,
[20:24]we put chili, coriander, you know, a pickled carrot
[20:29]and a lot of delicious things.
[20:30]So yeah, Vietnamese, Bankme is one of my favorite food.
[20:35]So I talk a lot about food.
[20:36]I also talk about, you know, music,
[20:39]talk about poetry and literature in the book as well.
[20:42]So now quite a few joyful moments in the book.
[20:44]And, you know, I want to present it
[20:47]and I'm beyond the wall.
[20:48]So that's why, you know, it's important for me
[20:50]to bring all these culture elements into the book as well.
[20:55]That's amazing.
[20:56]So describe how you like to write
[20:59]and what it looks like for you.
[21:01]Are you working at your desk
[21:03]in the library computer handwritten?
[21:05]Like what does that all look like?
[21:07]So I don't have the privilege of living near a library
[21:12]because I am currently based in Kyrgyzstan in Central Asia
[21:18]where if they are libraries,
[21:19]they have books in Russian and Kyrgyz language.
[21:22]So because I'm married to a German diplomat
[21:25]so I've been, you know, traveling around the world.
[21:28]So, you know, my writing life really saved me
[21:31]because for years I was like, you know,
[21:33]looking for a job wherever my husband
[21:35]I was posted to.
[21:37]And then one day, you know, I went back to school
[21:40]and I started, you know, creative writing
[21:42]because I wanted to bring my career with me.
[21:45]And I'm so lucky that now I can work as a writer
[21:50]because I can have that writing career on the road with me.
[21:54]So I wrote last time through so many countries
[21:57]I started writing us it when we were in Belgium.
[22:01]And then I continued when we were in Indonesia
[22:04]and I finished it when we were in Kyrgyzstan.
[22:08]So this book is a product of my travel, you know,
[22:12]my life in three different countries
[22:14]and I wrote on the plane on the train
[22:20]because we move a lot and each time
[22:22]of moving is challenging.
[22:25]But, you know, writing really calms me down
[22:28]and it's like meditation almost so I really needed.
[22:32]So, you know, like when I started,
[22:35]so, you know, I like to write the books that I want to read.
[22:38]So that's why I have multiple timelines
[22:41]and multiple perspectives.
[22:43]And so that, you know, I can create suspense.
[22:46]So normally, you know, with that's giant
[22:48]and also my first novel, the mountains sing,
[22:51]I did not know the endings.
[22:52]So that totally shocked me.
[22:55]But I feel like, you know, as a writer, I want to write,
[22:59]I want to be surprised every day as I sit down
[23:03]and work on my book because I think unless I can surprise myself,
[23:07]I can't surprise the readers.
[23:09]So yeah, the ending of this, I really shocked me.
[23:12]I didn't know that it wouldn't end like that.
[23:14]And thank you so much for reading my book.
[23:18]So carefully, I mean, you have so many authors
[23:21]and so many books coming at you, you read it so carefully
[23:24]and you also recommended it to many places.
[23:28]So thank you.
[23:29]Good morning, America.
[23:30]You recommended there as well.
[23:33]It's really good.
[23:33]Thank you so much.
[23:35]It's really good.
[23:36]It's really good.
[23:38]What advice that you have for aspiring authors?
[23:41]Write the stories that make you sleepless,
[23:45]that refuse to be ignored.
[23:49]Write stories that matter to you and don't think about selling
[23:52]the book or don't think about finding readers for it.
[23:56]Because if you write something that matters to you
[23:59]that will keep you going, you know, for myself,
[24:02]the reason I found, I had to write that style
[24:04]and this story is refused to sleep.
[24:07]And actually when I wrote this book,
[24:09]there were times that my husband told me,
[24:12]this book is going to kill you because I was, you know,
[24:16]when I was writing it, there were times I, you know,
[24:20]I didn't sleep much, you know,
[24:22]when my husband went to bed,
[24:24]I was at my writing desk and when he woke up,
[24:28]I was still at the desk and he said,
[24:30]did you ever sleep?
[24:32]And I said, yeah, I did, but the characters were calling me.
[24:36]They were saying, you know, get up and write,
[24:39]our stories can't sleep unless you tell them.
[24:42]But how about you, ZB?
[24:44]How are you managing your,
[24:46]as a writer, as a book shop owner,
[24:49]as a, you know, broadcast, we do so many things.
[24:53]How do you have time to write?
[24:56]How do you carve out that time?
[24:57]And you have, I don't, I don't, I miss it.
[25:00]I miss writing, I did my novel in like discrete times
[25:05]where I could clear a whole day.
[25:07]And I had even a weekend where I had to clear three days
[25:10]so I could just get stuff done.
[25:12]But I don't know, I squeeze it in around the edges
[25:15]and I don't have a lot of time
[25:18]so I don't take a lot of time.
[25:20]Like I know I have to get it done.
[25:21]So I get it done.
[25:22]And, you know, I can fix it in editing and things like that.
[25:25]But I don't know, I'm just kind of doing my best.
[25:28]And I mean, I really, I like it.
[25:31]But you know, my book is not,
[25:33]I don't write the way you write your, you know,
[25:36]this book could win like the National Book Award type of thing.
[25:38]That's not what I'm after.
[25:39]You know, my writing is very much like our conversation.
[25:42]I could just, I write the way I talk
[25:44]and it's very informal.
[25:46]I love your novel.
[25:48]I love your writing.
[25:49]You have very weak writers.
[25:51]So we need to hear more from you.
[25:53]I can't wait to read your next book.
[25:55]No, thank you.
[25:56]Please keep us, you know, I'm not a both
[25:59]and carve out the time because you have done so much for others.
[26:03]Oh, thank you.
[26:05]That's really nice.
[26:06]I would like to.
[26:07]I'm trying to get my head above water here
[26:09]and figure out what to focus on first.
[26:12]But no, I do love it.
[26:14]And I will not give it up because I do it.
[26:16]Even if it's drips and drabs on Instagram,
[26:18]it's still a little bit of writing each day, you know,
[26:20]like just even a paragraph just to keep it going.
[26:24]Yeah.
[26:24]Yeah.
[26:25]That's, I mean, you know, being a published writer is taught.
[26:29]And you know, like for you, you have to do so many other things.
[26:34]I mean, that's why I'm amazed because, you know, you are also
[26:37]like, you know, managing your bookshop and setting it up.
[26:41]And you know, like, I don't know how you can do all of that.
[26:44]But I do have a great team.
[26:47]I do have a great team.
[26:49]Did you have a team?
[26:49]But yes, I'll over the place.
[26:51]But yes.
[26:52]So what we need to write as well.
[26:54]And I appreciate all the things that you do.
[26:56]But I'm teaching right as well.
[26:58]Sorry.
[26:59]No, thank you.
[27:02]That's really nice.
[27:03]I love your novel.
[27:05]And I can't wait for another one.
[27:07]Oh, thank you.
[27:09]OK.
[27:10]Well, thank you.
[27:11]This was so wonderful and congratulations.
[27:14]And I'm just looking forward to seeing this book
[27:16]soar in so many ways.
[27:18]So congrats.
[27:20]Thank you so much, Zippy, on, you know, for the honor of the
[27:24]conversation with you.
[27:25]I've been admiring you for years.
[27:27]So this is a great honor.
[27:29]Thank you so much.
[27:30]Yeah, thank you.
[27:32]Because, like, because you know, I'm only here thanks to women
[27:36]like you or thanks to people like you who
[27:39]are split by voice because, you know, I don't live in the US or
[27:42]in the UK.
[27:43]So the chance for me to present my book is limited.
[27:46]You know, I'm disadvantaged because I don't live there.
[27:49]So I don't have easy access to a lot of opportunities.
[27:52]So thank you for having me on the podcast and having my
[27:56]book in your book shop and for recommending that's
[27:59]tied.
[28:00]I really appreciate it.
[28:02]Thank you.
[28:03]It's my pleasure.
[28:04]It's my pleasure.
[28:05]Thank you.
[28:06]Well, I hope to stay in touch.
[28:08]Bye bye.
[28:09]Okay.
[28:10]Great to talk to you.
[28:11]Really.
[28:12]I'm a mix.
[28:13]Thank you.
[28:14]Bye.
[28:15]Bye.
[28:16]Thank you.
[28:17]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[28:19]to Read Books.
[28:20]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens and
[28:23]at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:25]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com and sign up for
[28:29]my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every
[28:32]other week.
[28:33]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[28:34]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[28:36]Thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this
[28:39]fantastic intro and out trim music.