Ore Agbaje-Williams, THE THREE OF US
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
[0:06]This 30 minute podcast features a new author interviewed by me every single day, 365 days
[0:12]a year for about 30 minutes.
[0:15]I am also the publisher for Zippy Books, which publishes 12 books a year, and fiction
[0:20]and memoir.
[0:21]Our books are already out now.
[0:23]You can check it out on zippybooks.com.
[0:26]And we have a magazine called Zippy Mag where we have lots of wonderful essays and lifestyle
[0:31]features.
[0:32]That's at zippymag.com.
[0:33]We have classes.
[0:34]It's a B-Classist.com.
[0:36]And I recently opened a book store in LA called Zippy's Bookshop at 1113 Montana Avenue
[0:43]at 11th Street in San Monica.
[0:45]I hope that you are able to enjoy some of our other offerings.
[0:49]But this here podcast is the basis of all of it and started in 2018.
[0:54]And no matter what I do, this is basically my favorite thing.
[0:57]Enjoy.
[1:03]Hooray.
[1:04]Ashbhahay Williams is the author of The Three of Us.
[1:08]Hooray is a British Nigerian writer and editor from North London, who was written for
[1:12]Galdem, Glamour UK, and Wassafiri Magazine.
[1:15]Her fiction writing has also been featured on reflex fiction.
[1:18]Her first novel The Three of Us was published in spring of 2023.
[1:22]Welcome, Hooray.
[1:23]Thank you so much for coming on mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books and discuss The Three
[1:26]of Us.
[1:27]I feel like we should get a third person in on this podcast so we can actually have
[1:31]it be The Three of Us.
[1:32]It's okay.
[1:33]I can loop my daughter in if you want.
[1:35]I'm an annoying person.
[1:36]They're like earlier I was in the phone to two of my friends and one of them said, oh,
[1:40]something, something.
[1:41]There were three of us and I was like, The Three of Us.
[1:46]Yeah.
[1:47]Yeah.
[1:48]Yeah.
[1:49]So funny.
[1:50]Okay.
[1:51]Well, let's start by telling listeners what your book is about.
[1:54]Please.
[1:55]Okay.
[1:56]So the book asks the question of what would you do if you're best friend and your partner
[1:59]hates each other.
[2:01]So it's set out a course of one day and one afternoon and it's told from the perspective
[2:05]of the wife, the husband and the best friend and they are drinking a lot of wine.
[2:10]And therefore they are saying a lot of things that they mean.
[2:14]And essentially chaos ensues.
[2:15]The husband sees the wife one way, the best friend sees the wife another way and he's
[2:19]clashing opinions and then sort of a very un-careping that the wife has of herself all
[2:23]sort of come to her head under the influence of alcohol.
[2:26]Lovely.
[2:27]And how did you like where did this come from?
[2:31]Did you have an afternoon like this, this is based on people you know?
[2:34]I think I would spontaneously combust if it happened to me.
[2:39]Not the whole thing, but you know, you had to do it with like, you know, I don't know
[2:44]a couple or I don't know.
[2:46]No, thankfully that hasn't happened to me, although when I was like, I'm handing out some
[2:51]books to you book sellers, I told one of them the premise that she was like, Oh, well, I don't
[2:55]get along with my partner's best friend and I was like, I'm sorry to have triggered
[2:58]you.
[3:00]But no, I had started seeing somebody who I'm not obviously, but I'd start seeing someone
[3:07]and I was sending my best friend Grace who the book is dedicated to actually about him and
[3:11]I was like, oh, I really like him and then she was like, oh, are you going to get a boyfriend?
[3:15]I'm never going to see you.
[3:16]And I was like, no, no, no, no.
[3:17]He has to understand that you come first and she was like, oh, yeah, that's true.
[3:21]And so it just got me thinking like, huh, I wonder what happened though if woman or somebody's
[3:27]partner and best friend really did not get along.
[3:29]And Timmy was the first person I thought of and the first sort of character came into
[3:32]my head and then we all just sort of free from there, but I thought of her from the
[3:36]wife's perspective.
[3:37]And then by the time I sort of got into the wife or the middle of the wife, I was like,
[3:40]I want to be in her head for too long.
[3:42]I want to know what everybody else has to say until all sort of came from there.
[3:46]Wow.
[3:47]Well, it's really unique to have such a condensed timeline for a book.
[3:51]How did you think of doing that?
[3:52]That's such a such a fun experiment and all that, you know?
[3:55]I think I just thought to myself, like with the wife, I was like, I don't want to
[3:58]be in anybody's head for too long.
[4:00]And also, because there are flashbacks and things like that, I thought you kind of get
[4:04]some different elements of time in there as well, but I love the idea of that time being
[4:07]a pressure cooker and that you've got the fact that the wife's in the bathroom is supposed
[4:12]to be on holiday.
[4:13]And the fact that the husband and wife want to have a baby and that Timmy's been thinking
[4:16]for a long time, the things are off between her and the friend and that the husband
[4:19]doesn't like that.
[4:20]Timmy is around so much and all these things sort of come to a head on this one day.
[4:23]It's one of the questions actually that Sally, my US editor, she was like, why this
[4:27]day?
[4:28]And I was like, I don't know.
[4:29]She's like, that has to be something that means that everything sort of comes to a head
[4:34]on this day.
[4:35]So I was like, okay, you're right.
[4:37]Let me think about it a bit more.
[4:38]And so I did.
[4:39]And then it's how we got to where we are now.
[4:41]Oh my gosh.
[4:42]Well, I have to say, so Timmy has a best friend who was always late.
[4:45]Did I get that right?
[4:46]Timmy, Timmy's best friend is like, or is Timmy always late?
[4:49]Wait.
[4:50]Oh, well, yeah.
[4:51]Timmy's always late.
[4:53]And her friend is sympathetic towards that.
[4:56]And it's just like, oh, she's always 45 minutes late.
[4:58]This is just how she is, you know, the deal.
[5:01]And I am not tolerant of that at all.
[5:04]So I'm feeling like I immediately started feeling like, well, I am clearly not as nice
[5:09]as this character.
[5:10]Oh no, me and you exactly say, honestly, I hate it so much.
[5:15]I particularly hate it when other people make me late.
[5:17]Like I'm running on time.
[5:18]And then I'm waiting for somebody else.
[5:19]Yes, that too.
[5:21]Like, yeah, so I'm with you.
[5:22]I'm with you.
[5:24]And I've had such long conversations with people about this because to me, it's a sign
[5:29]of disrespect.
[5:30]It's like saying like, my time is worth more than you than your time.
[5:34]And it's like, I understand that maybe everybody doesn't have the most amazing
[5:38]executive functioning skills.
[5:39]And perhaps it's a lack of disorganized thing in their own brains.
[5:44]But I think it's intentional because like, if it's really important, they'll get there, right?
[5:49]Exactly.
[5:49]Honestly, you are speaking to my soul, right, actually how I feel.
[5:54]And I actually once had a really, really, really, really argument with said ex boyfriend,
[5:59]actually about the fact that he was a lot late.
[6:01]He was like well over an hour late to a date that we had.
[6:04]And I was furious.
[6:06]I was I was not in a loud way, but I was kind of publicly because we were in public,
[6:11]like telling them off.
[6:12]And I was like, you're telling me that your time is going on the my time.
[6:16]And that is not fair that shows you don't respect me.
[6:18]I was like, I do.
[6:18]I was like, no, if you did, you'll be more conscious of my time.
[6:21]And he's like, it's not because it is a big deal.
[6:23]Oh, my God.
[6:24]I literally have had that conversation with multiple ex people, yeah, that literally, you could
[6:32]have just, yeah, like we could have pressed play on the scene in my life, things and
[6:36]act words with the same intonations and all of that.
[6:39]Maybe we can find our Facebook groups.
[6:41]It's people who color coordinate their bookshelves and hate and people are late.
[6:45]Yeah.
[6:46]We probably have other things in common.
[6:47]Those two things are pretty revealing.
[6:49]I would say, you know, like, oh, my gosh, so funny, wait, okay, so take me back through
[6:56]your life.
[6:57]Like, how did we get here?
[6:58]Where did you grow?
[6:59]Like, give me go back and get me to here.
[7:00]Like, where'd you grow up?
[7:01]I could become a writer.
[7:02]Yeah, I mean, even this was some otherwise would be here and so, yes, we only have half
[7:06]an hour.
[7:07]Whistle stuff.
[7:08]I think actually the genesis of why I'm a storyteller is because Nigerian's love to
[7:11]gossip and I'm Nigerian.
[7:12]And so we just love to tell stories about other people and we don't know how to mind
[7:15]their own business.
[7:16]And so I think that's just always been a thing.
[7:20]Plus my parents are really vigilant about like making us go to the library of my sister
[7:24]and I am getting you book and then take it home, read it that week, tell them what it was
[7:28]about so that we had to actually read it.
[7:30]The blurb was not good enough.
[7:32]Really good at that.
[7:33]And then English was just like my subject.
[7:34]I loved English.
[7:37]And then kind of when I got to secondary school, I kind of fell out of love with reading
[7:40]because, you know, reading like Shakespeare of my son, man, which, you know, a period of
[7:45]time could be interesting to some people, but I think when you're reading it for school,
[7:49]those things just become very boring to you.
[7:52]Then when I was going and looking around university to go to, I had that there was like
[7:55]publishing and you could work on publishing and be an editor and I was like, that's
[7:57]cool.
[7:58]I could do that.
[7:59]And that time I wasn't really, I had written some short stories and really terrible
[8:02]stuff.
[8:03]Years before I hadn't read anything really since I've been in school.
[8:06]And then when I was at uni, I think I wrote a little bit then.
[8:09]And then I got up to me publishing and I met a friend of mine who she was at the time
[8:14]and editor as well.
[8:15]She's now an agent, but she said, I'd written something and I was just like, I'm just
[8:18]going to send it to you.
[8:19]You have good taste.
[8:20]And she said, I think you should send out to literary agents and I was like, I don't think
[8:23]so.
[8:24]First of all, it's like 7,000 words and second of all, no, she was like, no, I think you should.
[8:30]And I think you should send out to this person specifically as well, like send out to
[8:33]multiple people to make sure you send out to this one person and that one person
[8:36]ended up being my agent.
[8:37]But hilariously, she signed me to the agency with a completely different book.
[8:41]This book is many, many ideas down the line and bless her, she has been so patient with
[8:47]me.
[8:48]I sent her some real bombs, but this one thankfully was like the one that worked and she
[8:53]was really good at like doing edits with me before we sent it out and submitted its publishers
[8:57]and everything.
[8:58]And then obviously I've just had like two of the best publishers ever, Sally Kim in the
[9:01]UK and Sally Kim in the US and Jacob R. A. Bitch in the UK, who were just really good
[9:05]at like shopping and holding the book and making it what it is now.
[9:08]So hey, that is a whistle stop talk, otherwise be here forever.
[9:12]I love Sally Kim.
[9:13]She's great.
[9:14]Oh, good.
[9:15]I got to know her originally through John Kenny.
[9:17]Do you know he is?
[9:18]He's a platinum author.
[9:19]He's so funny.
[9:20]He wrote all these poems, like love poems for married people, love poems for people with kids
[9:25]and they're hilarious.
[9:26]He won the human prize and all that.
[9:28]Check it out.
[9:29]You should check him out.
[9:30]But anyway, I went to an event at bookstore magic and for him and she was there and I met
[9:34]her.
[9:35]And now I've probably run into her like 8,000 times in the UK and like anyway, but she's
[9:40]great.
[9:41]She's really, yeah.
[9:42]She's really wonderful.
[9:43]Wait.
[9:44]So did you, the books that didn't end up coming out and that you sent your agent?
[9:48]Was she just like, no, and then that was it or did you work on them or did you try to
[9:53]send them out and they didn't sell or like what happened?
[9:55]Why did you keep going?
[9:56]That's a great question.
[9:58]Not like in a beat.
[10:00]Wait, I mean, you know what I mean.
[10:01]Oh, but you mean.
[10:02]So that's the one I did, I didn't actually end up finishing
[10:05]that writing that book.
[10:06]And then she sent me editorial notes,
[10:08]and I wrote to her editorial notes,
[10:09]and wrote to the book, and I was like,
[10:10]yeah, I don't like this anymore.
[10:12]And she was like, huh?
[10:14]And I was like, yeah, I don't really
[10:15]want to read anything so I don't anymore.
[10:16]And she was like, okay, well, maybe you'll come back to it.
[10:17]And she says that every now and again,
[10:19]and I'm like, I'm not coming back to it.
[10:20]So you need to let that dream go.
[10:22]And she was just patient with me.
[10:25]And I came up with multiple other ideas,
[10:27]but I think the problem with those ideas
[10:29]that I never finished, and while I might finish at some point,
[10:31]but the main problem with those
[10:33]is that I was working as an editor at the time.
[10:35]And I still was when I wrote this book,
[10:36]but during that time, I had my editorial hat on,
[10:39]and I said, oh, these are books that sell.
[10:41]These are the kinds of books that sell.
[10:42]So I should try and write this kind of book.
[10:44]And because of that, I wasn't writing books
[10:46]that I enjoyed writing.
[10:48]I was writing books that I was emotionally invested in
[10:51]or remotely really interested in.
[10:53]And so that reflected in the writing.
[10:54]And the last thing I said before I sent her to three of us,
[10:58]I think I wrote 20,000 words.
[10:59]And it was kind of, it was a bit one day,
[11:01]it was like one day by David Nichols.
[11:02]Kind of, it was a bit like that.
[11:04]And she read it and she was just like, I don't get it.
[11:06]And I was like, it's 20,000 words.
[11:09]Do you wanna give it another go?
[11:11]And she was just like, no, I don't get it.
[11:13]I was like, I'm fine, back to the drawing board.
[11:16]Oh my gosh.
[11:17]And she was just like, I just need a first draft.
[11:19]And I was like, me too.
[11:20]I also need a first draft.
[11:21]And so when this idea came,
[11:26]first of all, I had the pressure from her anyway
[11:27]to be like, get it done, get something done.
[11:30]But then also when this idea came, I was like,
[11:31]oh, this works.
[11:32]This could be something.
[11:34]And so that, and also I was then doing a nano rhyme
[11:37]and national writing month.
[11:38]So I was like, this is a very specific way for me
[11:40]to get something done.
[11:41]And at least I'll have something resembling a novel
[11:43]at the end to send to her.
[11:44]And it just so happened that it ended up being
[11:47]good enough to send to her.
[11:48]So that's good to me.
[11:50]Oh my gosh.
[11:52]And in your editing work, what types of things
[11:55]are you like most proud of that you've edited
[11:57]or like what and how did you use all that
[12:00]to help with the writing piece of your brain?
[12:02]And I mean, I know it's all related.
[12:03]But you know, how did you marry those two things?
[12:06]Woo, how did I marry those two things?
[12:08]That's a good question.
[12:09]I think I thought it was kind of actually a rude awakening.
[12:12]I think I didn't really.
[12:14]Well, I think there was one thing I did do
[12:15]that was kind of my two things together.
[12:17]I don't like to over-describe.
[12:19]I like to leave room for the readers to fill in the gaps
[12:23]and fill in the details that they want to fill in themselves.
[12:24]I don't like telling them every single detail.
[12:26]So in books that I published, and also books I like to read,
[12:29]that was really important books I like to read.
[12:32]And right, I said, oh, this is important to me
[12:33]that I'm not doing too much over-describing.
[12:35]And so sometimes I write a sentence.
[12:36]I'd be like, oh my god, that's disgusting.
[12:38]And I actually have to delete it with them.
[12:39]I'm like, I'm saying too much.
[12:41]It doesn't sound like.
[12:43]But the thing that was a real rude awakening for me
[12:45]was actually doing the editing itself.
[12:47]Because it seems when you're an editor,
[12:49]and I'm sure this is with any job,
[12:50]when you're on one side of it, that seems like the hardest
[12:52]side to be on.
[12:53]I think just I'm doing all the work.
[12:54]I'm doing all the leg work, not to say
[12:55]that the person who writes the book isn't doing a lot of the work.
[12:57]But you think, I don't have to take this book,
[12:59]and I have to be this person that they trust,
[13:01]and that they respect, and they, you know,
[13:03]they are interesting, they're their book, baby, too.
[13:06]And I have to come up with some notes that are constructive,
[13:09]but also really make the book a lot better than it currently is.
[13:12]I also have to do it in a nice way,
[13:13]and I have to balance my negative comments
[13:15]to my positive comments.
[13:16]And so I thought I was doing brain size.
[13:18]I thought I was doing like brain surgery
[13:19]when I was doing being an editor.
[13:21]But as it turns out, being an author is harder.
[13:24]At least it seems to be editorial process,
[13:26]because I know that editors don't just edit.
[13:27]They do so many other things as well.
[13:29]But I realized that not only do you get these notes,
[13:32]and sometimes they are pages, and pages, and pages,
[13:34]long, but you get the notes.
[13:37]And then you have to read them,
[13:38]and you have to absorb them and accept them.
[13:40]And sometimes if you don't like some of them,
[13:42]then you've got time to get over yourself as well.
[13:44]And then you have to open up the book,
[13:46]figure out where to put these notes,
[13:47]add the things that you need to add in, delete the lines
[13:49]that you really love, that they're like,
[13:50]this line isn't funny or this line doesn't work.
[13:53]And then close back up, read it, make sure it makes sense.
[13:55]And you have to do it like three or four times.
[13:57]And so that was a lot harder than I realized.
[13:59]And I gained a new found respect for my office
[14:01]to bring that process.
[14:02]And I was like, this is actually way harder than I realized.
[14:05]And I'm so sorry that in my heart,
[14:06]even though not with my mouth,
[14:08]like in my heart, I thought that my job was way harder
[14:10]than yours, because you do a lot.
[14:13]And I respect you guys.
[14:16]Oh my gosh.
[14:17]So I actually wrote a novel myself,
[14:19]which is coming out in March.
[14:20]of next year, but my editor came back
[14:24]with pages of notes.
[14:25]And for so long, I just would not open them.
[14:28]I was like, I can't face it.
[14:30]And then I was like squinting to read them.
[14:33]Like, can I read any more?
[14:36]Is this gonna be a big deal?
[14:38]And one of the things, I was just like,
[14:39]no, I totally disagree.
[14:41]Oh, yeah, I like them.
[14:43]Part of five for that one.
[14:44]But yeah, think about having to just wait a bit,
[14:49]and see how many praise are on them.
[14:50]So I can be like, I'm gonna wait a minute to read these,
[14:52]because you need to be in the right frame of mind,
[14:54]because if you're having a bad day,
[14:55]and then you open the editor all notes,
[14:57]you're gonna be like, I hate you,
[14:58]and I wish I'd never sign that contract.
[14:59]You need to wait to be in the right frame of mind
[15:03]before you open something up like that,
[15:05]and then find all the red and like all the things
[15:09]that they deleted.
[15:10]Well, things like where they'd be like,
[15:11]oh, can you make this funnier?
[15:12]And you're like, no, I'm gonna delete it.
[15:16]We're gonna be like, can we bring out some more of this?
[15:19]Or can you add some tension?
[15:20]And you're like, well, how?
[15:22]Tell me how.
[15:24]So I completely get you.
[15:26]What's the name of your novel that's coming out?
[15:27]It's called blank.
[15:29]Oh, nice.
[15:31]Thanks.
[15:31]I love it.
[15:32]Immediately intriguing, because you're like,
[15:34]what is blank?
[15:34]Who is blank?
[15:35]Why is blank?
[15:36]So I love that.
[15:37]Well, you'll have to find out ways away.
[15:40]I'm like soaking up knowledge from every,
[15:44]no list of interviewings.
[15:46]It's all like so helpful to me personally.
[15:48]So this is very self-serving this whole podcast stuff.
[15:53]So one thing about your book, too,
[15:54]is it's not too long.
[15:56]I mean, there are books that I have here
[15:58]that are like 800 pages.
[16:00]And this is like, oh, thank God.
[16:01]Do you know how many words your book ended up being?
[16:06]47,000 something.
[16:09]When I sent it first to my editor to my agent,
[16:11]it was like 37,000, I think.
[16:14]Then when we did some edits and then we sent it out,
[16:16]it was like 42, maybe.
[16:19]Then they were like, Sally and Jake were like,
[16:21]well, you need to bulk.
[16:22]I mean, to add some words.
[16:23]I was like, cool.
[16:23]I got to 50.
[16:24]And then the next round of it, it said deleted like 3,000 words.
[16:27]I was like, what did you know for?
[16:29]I don't know how these words you know, deleted them.
[16:33]But no, it was for the better.
[16:34]But I love a short bubble.
[16:36]I love love, love short bubbles.
[16:38]And I just think in the age that we're living in,
[16:40]I mean, it's two things.
[16:41]It's one of my laziness.
[16:42]And two in the age we're living in,
[16:44]our attention spans are so short.
[16:46]And I don't think I could have stretched a whole day on
[16:49]for 500 or 300 pages.
[16:52]I think everybody, including myself,
[16:53]would have gotten very bored.
[16:54]So I was like, this needs to be short and sharp and sweet.
[16:57]Because that's why I like to read
[16:57]and I want something that I would like to read
[16:59]for other people to read.
[17:00]So yeah.
[17:01]I did the same thing, by the way.
[17:03]I handed it at for like 45,000.
[17:05]I was like, it's done.
[17:06]Here you go.
[17:07]I finished it.
[17:08]I finished it early.
[17:09]And they were like, no.
[17:10]And I asked words.
[17:12]And I'm like, any words.
[17:14]At one point, I was like, I'm talking to my kids about it.
[17:17]Finally, one of them,
[17:18]I gosh, I wish I remember which one.
[17:20]But anyway, last time,
[17:21]they were like, wait, the acknowledgements.
[17:23]Right, the acknowledgements early.
[17:25]And then you could count the words.
[17:27]And I was like, okay, I want to do that.
[17:29]And I'm like, what?
[17:31]It worked.
[17:32]It worked, yeah.
[17:33]Oh, nice.
[17:34]Except it.
[17:35]And then like you said, deleted a bunch.
[17:36]So what about it in the world?
[17:39]I don't even know how many words,
[17:40]but it is funny.
[17:40]I just interviewed Abraham for Gaze,
[17:43]whose book is like, I mean, like, you know, this big, right?
[17:48]Wow.
[17:49]And then I have your book.
[17:50]Thank you so much.
[17:53]I'm holding it up, but when I talked to him,
[17:55]I was like, hey, you know, long book, you know,
[17:57]kind of question.
[17:58]And he was like, I love long novels.
[18:01]And I don't like sort of getting into character's lives.
[18:04]And then having it end, I feel cheated.
[18:06]Like I want more.
[18:07]Like so, so that was an interesting frame of mind
[18:10]whereas, you know, getting in and out, you know.
[18:13]It's funny that cause I do love some really long books.
[18:16]What's one that I read?
[18:17]Well, this is ages ago now,
[18:17]but have you read a book all heard of a book
[18:19]called The Seven Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle?
[18:22]Okay, so it's like a, it's a real page, tiny.
[18:25]What's the one here?
[18:26]Oh, yeah.
[18:27]Do you know what?
[18:28]I don't know if that actually looks quite small,
[18:29]so I feel a bit ridiculous.
[18:30]But that does not look small.
[18:31]That does not look small.
[18:32]Yeah.
[18:33]Yeah.
[18:34]And when I saw that book,
[18:36]I was like, this is huge.
[18:37]I'm never going to be able to finish this.
[18:38]I read it in one day.
[18:39]When books are like really page turning out so easy.
[18:43]When they're long ones,
[18:43]then you've really got to immerse yourself in the world.
[18:45]Like a game of throwing to something like that.
[18:47]I could not, I did not read Game of Thrones
[18:48]in one sitting.
[18:49]I read it in many, many, many, many sittings.
[18:51]And I've only read the first one.
[18:52]So I didn't even read it.
[18:54]So they, so are you working on a new book now?
[18:58]Yes, I am.
[18:59]And I was saying some on the other day.
[19:01]Second book syndrome is real,
[19:03]particularly second novel syndrome.
[19:04]That is literally what my book's about, by the way.
[19:07]Oh, Arthur, come on, right?
[19:08]Yeah, anyway, it's so keep going.
[19:10]Okay.
[19:11]PTSD from retweeting.
[19:12]Yeah.
[19:15]Okay, that's the blank.
[19:16]Okay, I get it.
[19:18]I get it, I like it, I like it.
[19:19]Yeah.
[19:20]So it's been a journey, if you say the least, we've got to do.
[19:24]Oh no.
[19:24]But you know what?
[19:26]We are over the hump.
[19:28]The hump was about four or five months long,
[19:30]but we're over the hump now.
[19:32]So we just need to like really commit to it
[19:34]and get back into the rhythm of writing it.
[19:36]So that's good.
[19:36]But yeah, I am working on something new,
[19:38]which is exciting.
[19:39]I just need to make it work
[19:40]because I'm playing a bit with form throughout this
[19:42]because well, and so I just need to make sure
[19:44]that it makes sense and it flows
[19:46]and it remains interesting.
[19:47]It's probably going to be another short one,
[19:49]because laziness and be because attention spans,
[19:52]mostly my own.
[19:53]But yeah, working on something new,
[19:56]which is which hopefully will be good.
[19:58]My friend yesterday was saying,
[19:59]oh, second book's always better.
[20:00]with bus books. And I was like, okay, I hope that's true for me. I'm ready to.
[20:05]Last night, I went to, um, I don't know when this comes up, but the Aspen words literary prize ceremony.
[20:10]And someone was asked, oh, no, maybe well, anyway, Angie Cruz was answering about following up a
[20:15]book with another. And she said that she feels a lot of freedom because once she has a book that
[20:20]does well or that she feels really proud of, she's sort of like checked it off the list. So she's
[20:24]is free to experiment with something that maybe won't work. Yeah, that's true. That's a good win,
[20:29]actually. And I hadn't thought about things like that. So no, we always think of it as like you
[20:33]achieve this. My plan, you have to like surpass it. But I saw something earlier on, uh, I was going
[20:37]through Instagram was like, why is everybody trying to over-tune? What's wrong with being average? I was like,
[20:41]you know what, that's true. Sometimes the effort of being like an overachiever or high achievers too much
[20:49]to be consistent about like sometimes we just need to take a breather with everything going on in the
[20:53]it's just nice to be average and be normal and just achieve regular things. But I know that's
[20:58]not how you actually feel. No, it's not. I wish I did. I really wish I did. I'm so much easier
[21:07]of unfortunately I do. Okay, so where else do you apply perfectionism? Like, are you really neat?
[21:14]Is it your calendar? Where does perfectionism aside from the shelves? Yeah.
[21:19]Before I start from the shelf over here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously the bookshelves
[21:22]love our kind of book shelves. Communal spaces. So thankfully my, my flatmate I live with,
[21:28]he's also my friend. She's very clean and tidy. So that's fine. My community space is always
[21:31]kept very tidy. And I really appreciate that because sometimes, you know, we've lived with people.
[21:36]I mean, I hope no one high went to university who knows. I'm talking about them just in
[21:40]this. But then I went to university with one female. And so living with people like that
[21:50]becomes like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I have to live like this. And then you have people
[21:53]over and you're like, oh my gosh, my house is so gross. But it's not a communal area. I like to
[22:04]keep it clean, but it's not always tidy. So I'm doing a rush and you're doing something
[22:10]I don't know if you have this chair in your room and you have the least chairs in your bedroom
[22:13]that it's supposed to be like for you to sit and read in all for you to relax in. But what it
[22:17]becomes is a clothes chair so that when you're done with certain number of clothes, we're like,
[22:20]everyone, it's like two hours. I could wear it again. You just check it on the chair and you don't
[22:24]put it away. I had a chair in my room that I hadn't seen for maybe like seven months.
[22:31]But recently I have become, I've been on a mission for the last, but actually since this is
[22:35]beginning of this year to keep that chair clean and free of things. And I have so far, so I'm very
[22:39]proud of that. I'm unsure about having a last, but for now it's going, oh my gosh, amazing.
[22:47]And you live in London now, is that right? So what's your life like when you're not at your desk
[22:52]or, you know, near these beautiful shelves? I call myself a professional launcher. I like to
[22:58]go to lunch. I'm trying to be in addition to doing some freelance editing as well. I'm trying
[23:06]to be, when my friend recently was saying to me, like, what's a hobby that you do? And I was like,
[23:09]writing and she was like, not a hobby that you get paid for. And I was like, oh, interesting. I don't
[23:13]have one of those. I'm trying to get more into like roller skating. But it's very easy to embarrass
[23:21]yourself doing. So I'm trying to let go of like embarrassing yourself thing. But again, the perfectionist
[23:25]to me is like, oh, no, we can't do that. So I'm trying to go to and see some more films because I
[23:32]really love watching films. And a few friends that I we do, I can offer us about it every
[23:36]year. So we've watched the Academy Awards. And then we took off who's won. I've only won once,
[23:40]but it was a very short put year for me. And it was the other parasite one best picture. And I felt
[23:44]so excited. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't do that. That one coming. Well, I was like, I think I was
[23:50]not as person who ever existed. And they were like, no, you just guessed. But so many things like
[23:56]that. And traveling. I love traveling as well. And last year, I traveled a lot. And actually,
[24:01]friends, I just booked flights to go to Japan and South Korea towards the end of this year.
[24:05]So I'm going to Japan. Oh, my gosh, when are you going? We're going in June. When are you going?
[24:10]We're going in November. Oh, when you come back, you have to give me all the recommendations that
[24:14]you've got, please. Well, my itinerary has led by my eight year old. So we're going to like all the
[24:18]Nintendo places. Okay, my cafe is like, you might want to slightly different itinerary. I'm letting
[24:25]him, like, run the show, which is very excited. He has us doing so many things. I was like,
[24:32]you should go to Kyoto. We should explore the country. And then he gave me all the things. And I
[24:36]went on all the websites. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't know how we're going to fit the
[24:39]solid. Just in Tokyo. We can only go for about five days. Okay. So we'll be running around like crazy.
[24:47]And it will probably be a total nightmare. But yeah. And but South Korea and you're going to South
[24:55]Korea after? Yes. That's, that's next on his list. So,
[25:00]Oh, the recommendations for you. There we go.
[25:04]We've actually, his latest past time is the state department of the United States. Like has a
[25:09]thing where you put in the country name. And it tells you like one through four how safe it is.
[25:14]Oh, wow. Yeah. So we're like, like four is like, do not go there. No matter what, you know,
[25:19]and three is like, rethink your decision. And two is like, proceed with caution. And one is like,
[25:23]all clear. So I was like, let's just go to all clear for a while. You know, like, let's just,
[25:28]if we have all these countries, exactly, especially in young children agree. Yeah, exactly.
[25:34]He's like, how about Azerbaijan? Look that up. And I'm like, okay.
[25:40]Anyway, travels. Well, yes, I will let you know if we, if we go anywhere that is remotely
[25:45]something, I would recommend to another girl.
[25:48]Thanks. I will achieve. Amazing. Any advice for aspiring authors?
[25:54]Oh, this is the one thing I parrot to anybody who asks, don't write to make money. Don't write
[25:59]because you want to be rich. A, because you cannot predict that. And B, because you'll be miserable,
[26:04]right? Because you love it. And write something that you love because the passion for there and
[26:09]how interested you are in that will be reflected in the book and the quality of the book.
[26:12]And also, you just have a lot more fun. Plus, you're going to have to talk about that book for
[26:15]at least two years. So you should really make sure you write something that you like. You really,
[26:20]really like. And that you, yeah, that you enjoy, not every single part of writing is enjoyable.
[26:26]That's, that's definitely not. But I think to write something that you enjoy and to enjoy part
[26:31]of the process at least, I think is important. And to make sure that you still have that love
[26:35]for storytelling as well. And also to be patient with yourself and gracious, people say there's
[26:40]all the time. Rome's been built on a day. Nothing, nothing amazing happens just like that suddenly.
[26:44]There's loads of work that goes into it behind the scenes. So be kind yourself and don't
[26:48]think that you have to write a million copy by seller in two months because it's not possible.
[26:54]Well, actually, that's not true. Some people do do that, but they're like very seasoned writers
[26:58]and that's their whole, that's their whole vibe. So, but, yeah, just be kind to yourself and
[27:02]patient and write because you love it. Not because you think you're going to achieve a certain
[27:06]thing, just write because you love it. And that'll be reflected in the work as well.
[27:09]I love that. So great. I need to just take everyone's advice and put it in one podcast.
[27:14]Like, here's everybody's advice and just go to, to, to, to, to. If I had the time, I would do that.
[27:20]Anyway, because that is great advice. All right. Thank you so much. I had so much fun chatting with
[27:25]you. I hope I get to meet you in real life at some point. That would be really fun.
[27:29]Also, I just wanted to say like everything you're doing is incredible.
[27:32]Like, or the publishing house, the podcast, everything is just fantastic. And it's such like
[27:38]a rich resource for not only like readers and writers, but just for anyone. And it's amazing
[27:44]that you've built this whole thing. And I'm really appreciative. I know that I'm not the
[27:46]anyone who does so thank you so much because I know that it's, it's not an easy thing to do that
[27:52]many things. But you do it really well. So thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
[27:57]It will fuel me through the next time when I'm like, I have something I can't deal with
[28:01]anyone. Anyway, thank you very much. I appreciate it. All right. Well, hopefully to be
[28:08]continued at some point. Yes. All right. Take care. Okay. Bye bye.
[28:13]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:17]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:22]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[28:26]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at
[28:30]Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[28:35]this fantastic intro and out trim music.