Natalia Mehlman Petrzela, FIT NATION: The Gains and Pains of America's Exercise Obsession
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[1:03]The idea, Petzela, is the author of Fit Nation, The Gains and Pains of America's Exercise of
[1:09]Session.
[1:10]This was guest hosted by Julie Chavez, who is the podcast host of Zippy Adiosho, Ask
[1:14]a Librarian, and the author of an upcoming Zippy Books title.
[1:19]Natalia Melman Petzela is a historian of contemporary American politics and culture.
[1:25]She is the author of Classroom Wars, Language Sex, and the Making of Modern Political
[1:28]Culture, and Fit Nation, which I just discussed.
[1:31]She is co-producer and host of the acclaimed podcast Welcome to Your Fantasy from Pineapple
[1:35]Street Studios, Gimlin, and the co-host of Past Present Podcast.
[1:39]She is a columnist with the observer, and a frequent media guest expert, public speaker,
[1:44]and contributor to outlets, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, and The
[1:48]Atlantic.
[1:49]She is an associate professor of history at the New School, co-founder of the Wellness Education
[1:53]Program Health Class 2.0, and a premier leader of the Mind Body Practice, and Ten Saty.
[2:00]Her work has been supported by the Spencer, White Ink, Rockefeller, and Melan Foundations.
[2:07]She holds a BA from Columbia, and a PhD from Stanford, and lives with her husband and
[2:11]two children in New York City, and, by the way, I used to take those in Ten Saty classes,
[2:16]and that is just so crazy.
[2:17]Back when I had some time.
[2:19]Natalia, thank you for being here on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[2:22]I'm so happy to talk to you.
[2:24]I'm so excited to be here.
[2:26]Thanks for having me.
[2:27]We are here today to talk about fit nation, the gains and pains of America's exercise
[2:33]obsession.
[2:34]That's right.
[2:35]And I'm so excited to talk to you about this book.
[2:38]I was really impressed.
[2:41]Would you mind just starting, just tell me about the book?
[2:44]Sure.
[2:45]So I should say I am a big fitness knot, but I'm also a historian, and so this book is
[2:50]the intersection of those things, and it really started from my questioning of all these
[2:55]gym environments that I was always around, like, how did we get here?
[2:59]And so in a nutshell, the book tells the story of how we got here.
[3:02]It starts in a time when, like, nobody very few people worked out.
[3:06]Like, you're literally considered like a freak, like, on the stage at the free show, if
[3:10]you worked out.
[3:11]Yeah.
[3:12]Today, when still only 20% of people get the recommended daily of minimum of exercise,
[3:17]but everybody feels like they should work out.
[3:20]And so I traced that history from, like, the 19th century to, like, Peloton and the pandemic
[3:25]of how that idea came to be really part of American culture, and why it's still so, why
[3:31]the actual exercising part still is something that so few of us do.
[3:34]Yes.
[3:35]I really enjoyed this book.
[3:38]I thought it was so well written, so well researched.
[3:41]And yes, I didn't realize originally when I picked it up that you were an historian,
[3:46]and historian, a historian, I never get that right.
[3:48]I say a historian, but, like, people who are fancier than I do often say an historian,
[3:53]but you are, whatever you say is okay with me, perfect.
[3:58]I appreciate that space for me.
[4:00]But yes, when I picked it up, I just was amazed at the breadth of your research.
[4:06]So you did such a good job.
[4:08]And it was like taking a trip down just the rabbit hole too, for me personally, of all
[4:13]the exercises I've done through the years.
[4:15]I thought about doing a typo in the basement, right, when I was in college, and just all
[4:20]of these weird things that we've done.
[4:23]I wanted to start, so it sounds like for you, a lot started with really you are an activist.
[4:30]I mean, it feels like that's kind of the origins when you talk about starting as a middle
[4:35]school Spanish teacher and sort of, so can you talk about those origins a little bit?
[4:39]Yeah.
[4:40]I mean, I guess I don't want to make too much of my activism, but I sure.
[4:43]Sure.
[4:44]But to be extent, like that I really care about making the world a better place and about
[4:47]doing work that advances that progress, absolutely yes, I'm an activist.
[4:52]And I think in some ways like that looks like what we often think of as activists, I'm like,
[4:56]when schools were closed, I was at City Hall, like talking about the necessity for kids
[5:01]to be in school or like with this topic, part of what got me into writing this is a historical
[5:06]work was seeing really what I call like fitness and equality and actually starting a program
[5:11]where my college students would learn about the history of where this came from, but also
[5:16]we created an experiential wellness program to do NPE classes in schools.
[5:21]And so we worked with the New York City Department of Education to do that.
[5:24]So there's that kind of like more formal activism, but then in general, like I feel like
[5:29]being like an ambassador for asking smart questions about how did we get here and encouraging
[5:34]people to ask those questions not just about like a war or, you know, a policy, but the
[5:39]things that we don't often historicize like the gym or how we eat or how we shop or how
[5:45]we raise our children.
[5:46]Like I do feel that that's a form of activism because I think the world would be a better
[5:50]place if more people were asking and answering those kind of questions.
[5:54]That's such a good way to put it because you're right by thinking critically about that
[5:58]then you're informing so much of what decisions we choose to make today.
[6:03]Yeah.
[6:04]I mean, that's my hope.
[6:05]Yeah.
[6:06]Yes.
[6:07]I love that.
[6:08]And I was listening to one of your other podcasts.
[6:09]I was listening to past present, which also, by the way, I will be listening to welcome
[6:13]to your fantasy ASAP because it sounds amazing.
[6:17]It's a very juicy one.
[6:19]Yeah.
[6:20]I cannot wait and past present when one of the things you guys were talking about is using
[6:25]hindsight to make it foresight and that feels exactly like what you've done here where
[6:31]I feel like by tracing all of that, you do realize how many ups and downs and how much
[6:36]of the cultural messaging has seeped into this thing that we absorb, which is just trying
[6:43]to be healthy, right?
[6:44]Yeah.
[6:45]No, absolutely.
[6:46]And like how the definition of health has changed over time.
[6:48]And how we've thought, like, some people deserve to be healthy in a particular kind of
[6:52]way.
[6:53]Others in a different kind of way.
[6:54]What is the ideal, healthy body look like, like all of those things for sure.
[6:58]And it's funny.
[6:59]You say that.
[7:00]Thank you for listening to past present.
[7:01]Oh, of course.
[7:02]It's wonderful.
[7:03]So it's for today.
[7:04]We recorded, I think episode 371.
[7:05]So we've like been at it for a long time.
[7:07]But it's funny with that tagline like turning hindsight into foresight because one thing
[7:11]that we've thought of over the years is maybe we should have been a little more modest
[7:14]of just turning hindsight into insight.
[7:16]Like that would be enough.
[7:17]We were just a little more insightful.
[7:19]We don't need to take the future.
[7:20]And let's just think about where we are right now, you know, like that would be enough.
[7:24]But I like the idea of foresight because it, it matters a bit of intention behind it,
[7:29]right?
[7:30]That we are creating the reality as we live it, right?
[7:33]Like we're not just victims of the past or like passive, you know, individuals, like
[7:40]bound up in the tides of history or whatever.
[7:42]Like we can actually shape the future.
[7:45]And like that's something that like really gets me up every day.
[7:47]Like I'm a college professor.
[7:48]That's how I spend most of my time and like, you know, going to class and realizing,
[7:52]okay, well, yes, my like charge is to educate these kids and teach them about the past
[7:57]and also like how complicated and ugly it often is.
[8:00]But I'm really falling down on the job.
[8:02]If I don't like inspire them in some way to take that knowledge and to feel like they can
[8:06]change the future, like if all they feel is disempowered by their education, like I'm not
[8:11]doing my job, right?
[8:13]And this book is like a part of a project like that.
[8:16]Like I, you know, people are like, oh cute, the gym, like warmers and there are like
[8:20]warmers in this story and a lot of like funny kind of vintagey kind of things as you
[8:24]know.
[8:25]But you know, I also think it is a kind of serious story about who we have said like
[8:30]deserves to work on their body, deserves to feel good.
[8:33]Like why we've made exercise basically a consumer good that you can only have if you
[8:38]afford it and like copy in all those things.
[8:40]Like to me, those seem like really important questions, not just like, oh cute, like vintage,
[8:45]like workout trends from the past, even though I love those videos and there are aspects
[8:50]of this book that are that.
[8:52]Absolutely.
[8:53]Well, and what you're saying there is so true where I loved looking at the advertisements
[8:58]that you would include and I love that the book had pictures.
[9:01]So that was exciting.
[9:03]And yeah, that really helped me kind of frame some of it too because you see it as dated
[9:10]and you think of the ideas dated, but then you think of all of the things that have
[9:14]been pervasive from those ideas that have lasted.
[9:17]Right.
[9:18]And like that's one of the things that's so cool as a historian, right, and about this
[9:21]particular topic.
[9:22]Like now we take it so for granted that like, oh, the mind body connection is everywhere.
[9:27]And if you have a white collar job, there's going to be a gem at your office and what
[9:30]do you do to socialize on the weekend?
[9:32]Oh, maybe you'll do a five K, like all of those things are relatively recent, right?
[9:37]Yes.
[9:38]And they were deliberately constructed for particular reasons.
[9:41]And so it was so fun to go back and kind of like unpack how that happened.
[9:45]And like when you talk about the images, like yes, and I know you probably have a lot
[9:49]of writers who listen like negotiate images in your contract, like they're expensive.
[9:54]And like if you're writing this kind of book, they're so great.
[9:58]Like one of the things that I use in there.
[10:00]It's like some pictures from that presidential council on fitness.
[10:03]It's like changed its name a few times, right?
[10:05]Yes.
[10:06]And those ads tell a story of 1,000 words
[10:09]with like each picture.
[10:10]Like they start off being about like,
[10:12]guys getting fat and like the military.
[10:15]And by the 70s, it's like a girl in a pool.
[10:18]Physical fitness is beautiful.
[10:20]And it's like, whoa, that is a shift
[10:22]in what the government is promoting, you know,
[10:24]in terms of like why we should exercise and who should.
[10:27]And I never even thought about the government's role in it.
[10:31]I mean, I definitely think about it as a product.
[10:33]And of course, I grew up in the presidential fitness award days.
[10:38]I mean, and I could never climb a rope.
[10:40]So that was exciting for me.
[10:42]Promitizing like trauma totally never.
[10:46]I still think about that.
[10:47]If I see a rope hanging, I'm like,
[10:48]well, that's just one thing that's never going to happen for me.
[10:50]So totally, they retired that by the way.
[10:52]They don't like, not that long ago that was,
[10:54]I think it was like 2013, they retired that.
[10:57]That's a long time that they were traumatizing those kids.
[11:00]100% totally, glung this rope.
[11:04]Yeah, but it is amazing to think about how like you said,
[11:07]what we remember in what we know is such a small slice
[11:10]and seeing all of the things that led up to that.
[11:12]I mean, even in your book, I kept thinking,
[11:14]wow, we're only in the 1960s.
[11:17]And this is still sort of developing.
[11:20]I think something you talked about
[11:21]was the destructive dynamics of some of the things,
[11:26]as the messaging around exercise.
[11:28]We talk a little bit more about that.
[11:30]Yeah, so they're depending on the moment.
[11:33]They're a different destructive dynamics.
[11:34]But like one of the interesting ones,
[11:36]which I think is really still with us today,
[11:38]is like, you know, the dynamic that's not totally destructive.
[11:42]Like I think we look back today and we see some of these things
[11:44]that are like, get as tiny as possible
[11:47]or like take this pill or start yourself.
[11:49]It's pretty obvious that this is like very damaging messages.
[11:54]But one of the things that I found so interesting
[11:56]was watching some of the programming
[11:58]from the 1950s and 60s directed towards women.
[12:01]And like, let me tell you,
[12:02]it was not common for women to exercise them.
[12:05]So there was something actually really,
[12:07]I think, wonderful and radical
[12:09]about people like Jacqueline on television,
[12:11]saying like, ladies, set aside your ironing
[12:14]and come do some leg lifts with me.
[12:16]And he talked about it as this like, in power,
[12:19]not quite empowering, but like, you know,
[12:21]like gratifying kind of enlightening thing.
[12:24]Like exercise will make you feel regenerated
[12:26]and youthful and like take this time.
[12:28]And I think that is cool.
[12:29]Cause I think being in your body
[12:31]and putting aside your housework
[12:32]and taking time for yourself to do that,
[12:34]that was really a big deal.
[12:36]Okay, at the same time,
[12:37]if you watch like hundreds of those episodes as I did,
[12:40]you pretty clearly hear the subtext,
[12:42]which I think is still with us today,
[12:44]which is like, if you feel old and fat and disgusting,
[12:48]you have nobody to blame by yourself.
[12:49]Because if you just did these exercises,
[12:51]if you just disciplined yourself around food,
[12:54]if you just took the time to care about yourself,
[12:57]then you would be forever youthful and attractive
[13:00]and all the rest.
[13:00]And like to me that like mixed bag is so much still with us
[13:04]in like every exercise program.
[13:06]Like I often walk into like, I don't know,
[13:08]some sprint class and I'm like,
[13:10]all right, they're like really empowering things about this,
[13:12]but there's also a sense of like,
[13:13]oh my God, another item on the to-do list.
[13:16]Like not only do I have to go to work
[13:17]and schedule my kid's stuff,
[13:19]gotta take care of my body,
[13:20]gotta make sure I don't look my age, God forbid.
[13:23]And that's like, yeah.
[13:25]And so I think that's sort of,
[13:26]I think that is a pretty destructive expectation.
[13:29]Unfortunately, that comes with an expectation.
[13:31]I generally love, which is like,
[13:33]yeah, women should feel good getting strong
[13:35]and being in their body and coming together
[13:37]and spending time and money on exercise.
[13:39]So yeah, I would say that's one that is like
[13:41]very powerful in the story.
[13:43]It is, and you are exactly right
[13:45]that that's still with us.
[13:47]It's just that really like shadow side that still exists.
[13:51]And also, I mean, especially for women,
[13:54]we can't escape the look better, look younger,
[13:58]you know, machine complex that exists
[14:01]in every area of life it feels like.
[14:03]So then to have it in exercise,
[14:05]and I even have that,
[14:06]when I was telling you before we started recording,
[14:07]I was like, we're gonna get into my issues.
[14:09]This is one of them, yes, yeah.
[14:11]I'm an exerciser.
[14:12]I love exercising.
[14:13]I need that release because for me,
[14:16]it's a time to turn off my brain.
[14:17]I live too much inside my head at times.
[14:19]And so me too.
[14:20]It's getting into my body,
[14:22]which is a wonderful thing.
[14:24]However, there are times where I get it twisted.
[14:27]And so I have benchmarks that I'm failing to meet or meeting,
[14:33]but they don't really have to do with am I in my body?
[14:35]Am I moving?
[14:36]Am I doing things that feel good?
[14:38]It's more, was that intense enough?
[14:40]Was I, you know, how many kilodoules did I,
[14:44]am I my part on like a lunatic, you know?
[14:46]And things like that.
[14:47]So it's just, it's so hard to untie some of that.
[14:51]And I'm so glad that we're seeing a little bit more of that.
[14:53]But reading this, I was like, gosh,
[14:55]we are doomed from the start here.
[14:56]I mean, it's complicated.
[14:58]And yes, I mean, I appreciate your openness.
[15:01]I deal with many of the same dynamics myself, you know?
[15:04]And I think there's also a piece that a lot of us
[15:07]experience too, where like,
[15:08]there's so much moralizing about exercise
[15:10]in the body in general, right?
[15:12]I'm so good.
[15:13]I'm working.
[15:15]Like, you know, I care about health.
[15:17]Like, I'm spending a lot of money maybe,
[15:19]but it's for this virtuous thing.
[15:21]And then, of course, the assumptions
[15:22]that come with people who maybe look like they don't do that
[15:25]or who don't do that of like,
[15:26]oh, they're lazy or like, can you believe, you know?
[15:29]And I think that that is a real problem
[15:31]but identifying somebody's dynamics is probably like,
[15:34]you know, the first step.
[15:36]The first step, here we go.
[15:37]It's so true.
[15:39]I think the thing you were talking about too,
[15:41]when you were talking about the Jaclyn and the idea
[15:44]that in those days too, that it was reducing
[15:48]this idea of reduction for women.
[15:49]Just the use of that word,
[15:52]that taking up less space kind of metaphorically too,
[15:55]and that it could be passive.
[15:56]So I think some of those still lasting into it
[16:00]that it should almost be effortless, right?
[16:03]Oh my gosh, yes.
[16:04]Yeah, I might cut it in you.
[16:05]I don't know if you can see this video,
[16:07]but we're like jumping on each other and it's tough.
[16:09]So, yes, like two things that you say there.
[16:12]So one of the things that like exercise
[16:14]for women or for ladies,
[16:15]because I should say this is mostly targeted
[16:17]at white women who have some disposable income.
[16:20]Like this is not, you know,
[16:22]we've been grapple with this today,
[16:23]but certainly until almost like the 80s,
[16:25]like you are, that's not true.
[16:27]The 70s probably,
[16:28]you're not really seeing exercise
[16:30]marketed towards working class women
[16:32]or towards black women or women of color.
[16:35]Not that they're not doing their own things,
[16:37]but it's like the mainstream industry is very white
[16:39]and presumes like a degree of affluence.
[16:41]But yeah, like you were saying first of all,
[16:44]this notion that you should be passive
[16:46]and that like women should ideally inherently
[16:49]be like frail and ladylike.
[16:51]I mean, you see, we were talking about the ads.
[16:53]Like, you know, there were all these reducing salons
[16:55]and they literally would say like relaxed
[16:57]and luxurious comfort, like no sweating.
[16:59]And the idea was you should be working on your body,
[17:02]but like you shouldn't be like grunting
[17:04]like an animal or building muscles like a man.
[17:06]Like that's unladylike as a behavior,
[17:08]but it can also like compromise your femininity
[17:12]by your fertility.
[17:13]It can give you muscles.
[17:14]Like we don't want any of that stuff.
[17:16]But yeah, so that I think is not so much with us anymore.
[17:20]Don't you think?
[17:21]Agreed.
[17:22]Yes, I do.
[17:23]Like there is like go hard, like, you know,
[17:25]women can do that.
[17:26]But the other thing that you said about reducing
[17:28]like to me, it's interesting
[17:30]is that language is not with us so much,
[17:32]at least in like the LA and New York scene,
[17:35]like still go on like not so elite,
[17:38]like social media.
[17:38]And there's a lot of before and after
[17:40]like drop 20 pounds in a month and all that.
[17:42]But that's not the dominant talk.
[17:45]But what I think is really hard is that I still think
[17:49]that's what a lot of people are selling
[17:51]and what a lot of people are buying.
[17:53]And so while in some ways, it's like great
[17:55]that we have this more evolved discourse
[17:57]about self-care and getting strong
[17:59]and feeling good.
[18:00]Like if you listen to the whispers,
[18:02]a lot of people are still like,
[18:04]I just want to lose weight.
[18:05]And I think that like we get in some ways,
[18:07]it's a huge problem because it makes it harder
[18:09]to attack sort of disordered, destructive patterns,
[18:12]but also like shames people for wanting to lose weight.
[18:15]Some like, I sometimes want to lose five pounds.
[18:17]I, this is okay.
[18:18]Like I feel better when I'm a particular weight
[18:21]or like, you know, and I eat a particular way.
[18:24]And like that's okay.
[18:25]So some of this like new language is progress,
[18:28]but can like prevent us from having a more honest
[18:30]conversation, I think.
[18:32]That makes sense.
[18:33]It's sort of a swing of the pendulum that goes too far.
[18:36]Yeah, yeah.
[18:37]Right?
[18:37]You can't talk about that anymore.
[18:38]So we're just going to talk about this other side,
[18:40]but really that side still had some value to it.
[18:43]Yeah.
[18:43]If we're being honest about it.
[18:45]Right. And it's still with us.
[18:46]A lot of people still want to lose weight.
[18:48]And like per, that's good.
[18:50]That is not all bad or all good.
[18:53]You're exactly right.
[18:54]It's easy to oversimplify.
[18:55]Yeah.
[18:56]Where would you say we are right now?
[18:59]Where do you think we're headed with fitness?
[19:02]What would you like to see ideally?
[19:04]I know you're an instructor also.
[19:06]And so I'd love to hear about that.
[19:07]Tell me about it.
[19:08]OK, so yeah, I'll tell you about that first.
[19:10]So I like you was traumatized in PE class by the rope climb.
[19:14]But for me, like everything, even like pulling myself
[19:16]on front of the bleachers, I was like two weeks to do.
[19:18]So I like hated everything physical.
[19:20]But to get out of PE class, I found out
[19:23]you could do an independent study.
[19:24]And I found a group fitness class, step aerobics in 1995,
[19:28]I think.
[19:29]And I just fell in love with group fitness.
[19:31]And so like long story short, since that happened,
[19:34]I just always gravitated toward those environments.
[19:37]As a feminist, I was like once that was part of my life
[19:40]in my 20s, I was ambivalent about all the like blaster thighs,
[19:44]whittle your waist, memorial days around the corner.
[19:47]But like almost as a guilty pleasure, I'm like,
[19:49]but it's so fun.
[19:50]Like I love this dancing.
[19:52]I love the music.
[19:53]I kind of hate the language.
[19:54]It's so fun.
[19:56]And so when I was 2005, and I was
[20:00]I actually do my PhD out at Stanford,
[20:01]but I was disertating from New York.
[20:04]And I joined Equinox Gym.
[20:06]I met this amazing woman, my mentor,
[20:08]the book is dedicated to her.
[20:09]She's past last year sadly.
[20:11]And her name is Patricia Marano,
[20:13]and she had just started this class called Intensati,
[20:16]which combined positive affirmations
[20:18]with like really big movements.
[20:20]And I was just like, oh my God, I'm home.
[20:23]It's the fun and the energy and the rigor.
[20:26]It's really hard.
[20:27]But with this like really empowering language,
[20:28]but we're not talking about weight loss or anything.
[20:30]But honestly, I'm in the best shape of my life.
[20:32]I'm like, ripped and like strong and all of this.
[20:35]And so she was certifying instructors
[20:38]and she's like, why don't you do it?
[20:39]And it's so funny we get in our head.
[20:40]We were talking about, I'm like,
[20:41]what are you talking about?
[20:43]I'm getting a PhD at Stanford.
[20:44]Like, no, no, no, I'm not gonna be an instructor.
[20:46]Even though this is like my favorite thing in the world.
[20:48]And she was like, no, yeah, it's like,
[20:50]just do the training.
[20:51]And then before long, I was teaching at Equinox.
[20:53]I was a little bit of an ambassador.
[20:54]And yeah, now I don't teach as much,
[20:56]but I'm teaching tonight in Bridgehampton at Athletic.
[20:59]And yeah, it's just,
[21:01]I really, it's an important part of my life.
[21:03]It really, I love it.
[21:05]That's so great that you were able to dovetail those things
[21:08]for this book and kind of see parts of it.
[21:10]But I love that idea that there is,
[21:13]because I agree with you, group fitness is my jam
[21:15]because it's a way to turn off my brain
[21:18]even further because I'm just being told what to do.
[21:21]But yes, it needs to be challenging enough
[21:24]to enjoy at all these kind of marks that you have set.
[21:27]So it sounds like that's perfect.
[21:29]I need to find a class around here.
[21:31]There's got one.
[21:31]I'm in Northern California where like,
[21:33]yeah, it's so funny. I'll be there this week.
[21:35]I was gonna teach that it didn't happen,
[21:37]but I will help you find mine, don't worry.
[21:39]Okay, perfect.
[21:40]Thanks.
[21:41]We're meeting all my needs in this conversation.
[21:43]And I really appreciate that.
[21:44]Yeah. Exactly.
[21:46]Very efficient.
[21:47]Did you think you were gonna be interviewed?
[21:48]No.
[21:49]I'm just talking about my problems.
[21:51]I love it.
[21:52]Really.
[21:53]I think one of the main things that I loved about your book
[21:58]was, you know, and you set it at the very end.
[22:00]You can't, we talk about,
[22:01]you can't out exercise a bad diet,
[22:03]even though I've had times in my life where I've tried,
[22:06]but you can't out exercise a broken system.
[22:08]And that I think is such a powerful message here
[22:11]and you spoke about it earlier that fitness still
[22:14]in our country is very, it's so tied into a product
[22:19]that it's inaccessible for a lot of people.
[22:22]What do you see as a solution for that?
[22:24]Or how do we move forward from here with that?
[22:27]Yeah, that gets your previous question about the future too.
[22:29]So I think the first thing is what you're alluding to.
[22:32]Like this book is about fitness,
[22:33]but we can't understand or solve fitness inequality
[22:37]until we understand how intimately
[22:39]and intricately it is intertwined
[22:41]with all these other areas that we are more familiar
[22:44]with in terms of talking about inequality.
[22:46]For example, like, you know,
[22:47]if you don't live in a safe neighborhood,
[22:50]then you can't go out and go for a run.
[22:52]That is not just in terms of crime,
[22:54]but it's about lighting.
[22:56]It's about green spaces, which bring the temperature down
[22:58]so you can run more or walk, you know, more days a year.
[23:02]It's about the body that you're in.
[23:03]Obviously as women, we face particular challenges
[23:06]of like, I don't know where exactly where you are,
[23:08]but I live in a pretty safe area
[23:09]and I won't run after dark or when it's dark in the morning.
[23:11]Like no way, right?
[23:13]And then if you're a person of color,
[23:14]that takes on a whole other set of issues.
[23:17]Similarly, like think about labor.
[23:19]Like I work my butt off,
[23:21]but I have a lot of control over my time, you know?
[23:23]And if I work a shift labor or how to commute
[23:26]because I can't afford to live near where I work,
[23:29]guess what?
[23:30]There goes my workout time.
[23:31]If I didn't have safe childcare, you know,
[23:34]if I went to a school growing up,
[23:36]which I kind of did, but like didn't have,
[23:39]that didn't introduce me to exercise in a way
[23:41]that made me want to do it rather than traumatize me,
[23:43]all of those things stack against you, you know?
[23:46]So like, oh, if you only can afford to eat unhealthful food,
[23:50]then you're not gonna feel good
[23:52]to be able to bring this stuff into your life.
[23:53]So, you know, people like say things like,
[23:55]oh, do we need like more free gym membership?
[23:58]And I'm like, yes, and like it would be great
[24:00]if we had more.
[24:01]Like I think it is good that the lower end
[24:02]of the fitness market is really opening up
[24:05]and that we have all of these low cost options.
[24:08]There's obviously a lot of online stuff,
[24:09]but like that's sad.
[24:11]Like, you know, the less control that you have
[24:13]over your time, your spending, your life,
[24:16]the less likely it is,
[24:17]you're gonna be able to bring exercise into it.
[24:19]And so I both advocate for this kind of like laser view
[24:22]of like exercise is something we're looking at,
[24:24]but also reminding people, it's like very embedded
[24:27]in all these other things.
[24:28]And you know, people get mad sometimes when I say that
[24:30]because, you know, we were very individualistic
[24:32]in the United States, but I think all the exercise
[24:36]in particular, because people like,
[24:37]come on, like just go off the couch and go for a run.
[24:41]Anyone can do that.
[24:42]All you need is sneakers.
[24:43]On some level, of course that's true.
[24:44]Without personal motivation, you can't do anything.
[24:47]And anyone can do push-ups and like not anyone.
[24:50]There's the questions of ability, but you can.
[24:52]It takes motivation.
[24:53]That said, that motivation is situated
[24:56]in so many other things that become so much easier
[24:59]to navigate if you have money, education,
[25:02]space in your home, et cetera.
[25:04]So I'm constantly trying to like, you know,
[25:06]be inspiring, like, yeah, I get up.
[25:07]Let's go for a run.
[25:08]Like that's great.
[25:09]You can do it too.
[25:10]And also like, I get it.
[25:12]You're not a failure if you aren't cannot
[25:15]or choose not to do this.
[25:16]So that's one thing.
[25:17]And then in terms of what I'd like to see,
[25:19]I mean, I would love for us to look back on this moment
[25:22]and the low, low participation in, you know, exercise
[25:26]and the like crappy investment in PE
[25:28]and the total lack of policy
[25:30]that brings together private and public in this realm.
[25:32]And I would love for us to look at that
[25:34]as like when everybody was like smoking in classrooms
[25:36]or had no seat belts.
[25:37]And we're like, can we believe that?
[25:39]Like what kind of society would do that?
[25:41]And like, I think that would be great.
[25:44]And you know, I do think, you know,
[25:45]my first book was about the culture wars
[25:47]like the things that people disagree on.
[25:49]Everyone agrees exercise is good for you for the most part.
[25:52]I don't care what your politics are.
[25:54]I mean, I do care.
[25:55]But like that is pretty much a consensus position
[25:58]yet our policy has not caught up with that perspective.
[26:02]And so we don't yet have those policies
[26:04]to actually make access and participation
[26:07]to exercise really a national priority or reality.
[26:09]So that's where I would love to see us go.
[26:11]That vision, that is perfection.
[26:13]And you're so right.
[26:14]The smoking in classrooms just whenever we go on an airplane,
[26:18]I still have to tell my kids.
[26:19]I'm like, people used to smoke on airplanes.
[26:21]That was a thing that happened.
[26:23]I know totally.
[26:24]And just the idea and now we think what?
[26:26]I know and I remember even when my kids were little,
[26:29]I feel like the planes were still around the ashtrays
[26:31]and the seats.
[26:32]Maybe like we weren't smoking there anymore.
[26:34]I was never.
[26:35]I was a baby when that happened.
[26:36]But I think some of those planes were still in circulation.
[26:39]I was like, what's this mom, you know?
[26:41]The ashtray or the cigarette lighter in the car?
[26:43]Oh, totally, totally.
[26:44]Well, I was looking at my old pottery from camp.
[26:47]And my kids were like, what's this?
[26:49]And I'm like, I made my grandmother an ashtray
[26:51]like in ceramics.
[26:52]Like when I was like, eight.
[26:54]Like, and that was totally normal
[26:55]because she'd sit there like chain smoking,
[26:57]talking to me and the counselors like, oh,
[26:59]seems wholesome.
[27:00]I'm like, this is a great idea.
[27:02]Ashtray, perfect.
[27:03]It's a nice shape.
[27:04]We'll be able to get that done real quick.
[27:06]Right, right.
[27:08]It's so true how times change
[27:09]and how we can use that to springboard us forward.
[27:13]And you're right, in terms of the things
[27:15]that we're talking about with policies,
[27:16]this should be a really easy agreement.
[27:18]It's not hard.
[27:19]It's not hard.
[27:20]Unfortunately, I'm cautiously optimistic,
[27:23]but you know, I can think of a million reasons
[27:25]on both sides of the aisle that things get dismissed.
[27:28]So invite me to the White House, Joe Biden.
[27:31]There you go, exactly.
[27:33]What do you mean?
[27:33]I find our government to be so effective
[27:35]and things just seem to get done so seamlessly.
[27:37]I don't know.
[27:38]I don't know.
[27:39]All the time.
[27:40]Yeah, functional system.
[27:41]It's so true.
[27:42]Here's a question.
[27:43]What is your least favorite form of movement or exercise?
[27:46]What do you hate to do?
[27:48]Oh, that's a good question.
[27:50]I don't like sprinting.
[27:52]I'll say that at all.
[27:54]Like I do distance running.
[27:56]I really dislike sprinting.
[27:57]I also hate group exercise classes
[28:01]that are either too easy or totally out of sync.
[28:03]Like that feeling of being trapped in the room.
[28:05]And it's like chit chat and all that.
[28:07]I hate, but then also the room of people
[28:09]where they're not on the beat.
[28:11]And like, it's just like maddening.
[28:12]I'm too type A for that.
[28:16]I can fully appreciate both of those.
[28:19]It's about you.
[28:20]How about you?
[28:21]What do I hate?
[28:22]You know, and there's not a ton,
[28:24]but yeah, people not being on beat and stuff.
[28:27]I go to my bar method over here,
[28:29]which I really enjoy, just low impact.
[28:31]But again, one of those kind of both
[28:33]and sort of situations where I enjoy it,
[28:35]but I wish that it were maybe more accessible
[28:37]for more people, because it is a little on the spendyside,
[28:40]but I don't really like Pilates.
[28:42]It hurts my neck.
[28:44]I don't like Pilates very much either,
[28:45]but I've always thought that Pilates
[28:47]is like very good for a different kind of body type than me.
[28:50]Like, I don't know.
[28:52]Yeah, you're so right.
[28:53]That's a good point, right?
[28:54]One man's pain is another man's pleasure in this situation
[28:57]or one woman in this case.
[28:58]Yeah, but I think, yeah,
[29:01]I just, Pilates is tricky for me,
[29:03]but most things I pretty much like,
[29:05]I only run when chased now.
[29:07]Right.
[29:08]But I mean, I know my kids run.
[29:10]I basically always feel better when I move.
[29:13]Like, so I'm like, I'll do whatever.
[29:15]Take me to some weird, gimmicky thing.
[29:18]Like, I'll try it.
[29:19]I'll feel better than if I was sitting on my computer,
[29:21]which is what I do most of the time, you know?
[29:22]It's so true.
[29:23]And even if it is sort of a disaster and an annoys you,
[29:25]then you have something to talk about later.
[29:27]I like exactly.
[29:28]Well, I always say that.
[29:29]So the class I teach in Tenzati is weird,
[29:31]because you're like yelling affirmations.
[29:33]I'm always like, you guys at worst,
[29:35]you will have sweat at a lot,
[29:36]and you'll have like a good story to tell your friends
[29:37]about this crazy class you took.
[29:40]So my jam, I love it.
[29:42]You got to come next time you're here.
[29:45]I'm going to make it happen.
[29:46]I'm sure I'll be on the other side.
[29:48]What are you writing right now?
[29:49]Are you working on something?
[29:51]Right now, ironically, I am late on a review essay,
[29:54]which is a reviewing a few books,
[29:56]which are actually like questioning hustle culture
[29:59]and like.
[30:00]celebrating kind of like, you know, saving time for yourself. And so I owe this big essay, which
[30:06]it's ironically, I'm like behind. So I'm like, maybe I should be chill because this is what these
[30:09]books are teaching me. But the editor is not going to be said, chill. So I'm working on that right now.
[30:14]And then, um, you know, I'm like not rushing into the next book project. But my co-host of past
[30:19]present, one of them Neil J Young and I, we actually have plans to co-write a new history of the
[30:24]Hamptons. So Eastern Long Island from the perspective of 20th century and in a very different way
[30:29]than it's ever been written about before. So that's the next book project. I cannot wait to read
[30:34]that. I have never been to the Hamptons. I know nothing about the Hamptons. I'm going to, I have a lot
[30:39]of things to do now after this conversation. Yeah, I'm going to be very busy. But here's the thing,
[30:43]but you've heard of the Hamptons, right? Of course. Right. So that's kind of like what we, one of
[30:48]the things we want to trace is like how the Hamptons became an idea and like how much what that idea
[30:54]is and how much a cohears or not with their lived experience and reality there that it's not just
[30:58]celebrity mansions. Like there's an amazing immigration story. The politics are super interesting.
[31:03]So yeah, we were really excited to dive into that. I can't wait. That sounds really fascinating.
[31:09]Oh, I'm psyched. Well, Natalia, this was an absolute pleasure. I enjoyed talking to you. This has been
[31:16]great. Likewise, I loved it. I want to like go meet you and work out together. Yes. Oh, let's put it
[31:22]on the schedule. I'm here for it, but we're not climbing any ropes. That's fine with me and maybe not
[31:27]a lot easier there. We'll just cross those off. And we could maybe go watch people do those and
[31:32]cheer them on. Sounds great. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of
[31:40]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at
[31:45]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign
[31:50]up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to
[31:55]Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon
[31:59]Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.