Andrew McCarthy, WALKING WITH SAM: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain
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[1:03]Andrew McCarthy is the author of Walking With Sam, a father, a son, and 500 miles across
[1:09]Spain.
[1:10]Andrew is a director and award-winning travel writer and an actor.
[1:15]He made his professional debut at 19 in class and has appeared in dozens of films, including
[1:20]such iconic movies as Pretty in Pink, St. Elmo's Fire, Lesson Zero, and Cult Favorites
[1:26]Weekend at Burnies and Mannequin.
[1:28]I have seen all of those movies about 57 times.
[1:31]As memoir chronicling this time, Brat and 80's story became a New York Times bestseller
[1:36]in 2021.
[1:38]Andrew has directed nearly 100 hours of television, including the blacklist, Grace and Frankie,
[1:43]New Amsterdam, Orange is the New Black and many others.
[1:46]For a dozen years, Andrew served as an editor at large with National Geographic Traveler
[1:50]Magazine.
[1:51]He has written for The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times,
[1:55]The Atlantic, Time, Travel and Leisure, Town and Country, Men's Journal, Bon Appetit, and
[2:00]many others.
[2:01]He was named Travel Journalist of the Year by the Society of American Travel Writers,
[2:07]as well as serving as guest editor of the prestigious Best American Travel Writing Anthology.
[2:13]Andrew is the author of a travel memoir, The Longest Way Home, and a young adult novel,
[2:18]Just Fly Away, both New York Times bestsellers.
[2:21]He lives in New York.
[2:22]Welcome Andrew.
[2:23]Thanks so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to Read Books to discuss your latest
[2:27]book walking with Sam.
[2:28]Yeah, it'll save everyone the trouble reading it.
[2:31]Yes.
[2:32]They don't have time for it.
[2:34]Skip the whole thing.
[2:35]Just listen to this.
[2:36]No.
[2:37]Run out and buy the book.
[2:38]That's the whole point.
[2:40]Well, I love the whole premise of this.
[2:43]I have four kids myself and my oldest or twins about to be 16 and the thought of like
[2:50]any of them eventually coming around it being like, yeah, sure, I'll go and walk with
[2:53]you for like a month.
[2:54]That's supposed to like the walk to the deli, but that was so great.
[2:58]So like I thought when Sam was like, I thought you meant you wanted to go for a walk
[3:02]around the corner.
[3:03]So why don't you tell listeners a little about the book and how you just like the
[3:09]whole set up of it and how you got to the walk and how you made it a book?
[3:14]Sure.
[3:15]Yeah, it's called Walking with Sam.
[3:16]It's about a 500 mile walk I took with my the 19 year old son across Spain on the
[3:22]the old Camino de Santiago, which is an ancient pilgrimage route that was found in the
[3:27]8th century, you know, and it began as a Catholic sort of pilgrimage.
[3:33]And over the centuries, it still is a Catholic pilgrimage, but it's evolved to work people
[3:38]from all denominations and walks of life, walk it.
[3:41]And it was something I did first 20th, I don't back in the early 90s, and it was real
[3:49]life changing experience for me.
[3:50]I walked it and it stayed with me, you know, it changed my life when I walked it the
[3:55]first time.
[3:56]And so I'd always kind of wanted to do it again.
[3:58]And then as my son that was a custom manhood in thinking about moving out of the house
[4:02]and all that stuff, I was afraid my relationship with my son would end when he left home.
[4:08]The way mine did with my dad, you know, I was 17 years old, I moved to New York City, and
[4:11]really that was the end of it.
[4:13]And I never had any kind of adult relationship with my dad and it's been one of the biggest
[4:16]regrets of my life, I think.
[4:19]And I just didn't want that to happen.
[4:21]And I didn't know how for it not to happen because I had no template for like, how do
[4:25]you have an adult relationship with an adult child because I didn't have one.
[4:29]And so I thought walking the Camino might solidify that in some way, I just had this
[4:34]sort of punch, you know, and I knew that it would give me the ultimate luxury that you
[4:38]have with an adult child, which is time, you know, and there's so much of the time
[4:43]my son's running for me.
[4:44]Hey, Sammy, you want to go out for dinner?
[4:45]All right, I'll see you later.
[4:48]That's that.
[4:49]And so to just walk beside him for 500 miles per month across a country was really an
[4:56]amazing opportunity.
[4:57]You know, I was a great brother, he said, yes, he did kind of want to change his mind,
[5:02]I think it's certainly like on day two, he turned, he said, what's the point of his
[5:07]ethnic walk?
[5:08]And he didn't say ethnic.
[5:09]And then with then, you know, the last days we arrived in Santiago de Coppistela, he,
[5:15]you know, he said, dad, that's the only 10 out of 10 thing I've ever done in my life.
[5:19]And there's something about the walk and then walking in general and walking such a long
[5:23]way that has a real profound effect on us, you know, especially in our culture and society
[5:31]now where it's a mile a minute, we're defaulting to our phone every three seconds and all
[5:35]that kind of stuff to just sort of let that all fall away for a while and sort of feel
[5:41]your own rhythm and feel the person next to you and really give each other space and
[5:46]receive each other as a big experience.
[5:50]It's so true.
[5:53]And I guess the book came out of why the books are, we're more, keep going, that was great.
[6:01]The Camino walk profile, you know, you walk to Santiago de Coppistela, which is a city
[6:05]in the west of Spain and it's near the coast, but in that for the pilgrimage, the official
[6:10]pilgrimage ends.
[6:12]But there's a walk for three days beyond it to a place called Finaster to the coast.
[6:17]And many pilgrims feel the need to pull to keep walking all the way to the coast.
[6:21]And I did not, I was like, I'm going to hopefully make it to Santiago and that's enough
[6:26]for me.
[6:27]My son said, I'm going to go to Finaster.
[6:29]Why don't you come with me dad and I said, no, Santiago is enough for me, but you go.
[6:34]And the idea, you know, the, the low hanging fruit of the metaphor of our children,
[6:39]my son going beyond what I've done was too much for me to sort of resist.
[6:44]And so I didn't look in it where at that moment, you know, that's the idea, right?
[6:48]We raise these kids and hopefully they'll be the first one to go to college and we become
[6:52]a lawyer or whatever it is, you know, and to carry it further than we did.
[6:57]And when my son wanted to go do that and did go do that, it was as thrilled for him.
[7:03]And I was thrilled to get to sit down for a couple of days long.
[7:06]And then at the end, I was able to come up to the end to Finaster, to meet him and watch
[7:10]him come marching up the street, you know, get tears up.
[7:13]And I said, you know, I did not want to, you know, and to just be able to receive him there
[7:18]and for him to allow me to receive him, you know, was a big, a wonderful moment, you know.
[7:24]Well, it is.
[7:26]It's really beautiful.
[7:27]And I love how you're very open about how hard it was on your body at this age too.
[7:32]Like, hey, you're always propping your feet up against the wall and like, because I'm
[7:36]thinking of myself.
[7:37]How is he even doing this?
[7:38]Like, I watched six miles around Charleston and I was, I had to like sit down for like a
[7:42]week.
[7:43]Oh, my God.
[7:44]Well, that's the shit.
[7:45]At the end of every day, I collapse onto the bed with my feet up the wall and rock motion
[7:50]though over my bed.
[7:51]I'm going to go out and check it out and he goes gone and like, oh, my God.
[7:54]Well, that's a difference between, you know, 19 and middle age.
[7:59]Oh, my God.
[8:03]You know, it's also so great to get the 10 out of 10 score when you so clearly outline
[8:08]like all the skepticism that he felt at the beginning and all of the, you know, can not
[8:15]complaining.
[8:16]But like, yes, if they were complaining, it was complaining.
[8:18]We're so airport.
[8:19]Yeah.
[8:20]Like, where is the airport?
[8:21]That was so funny.
[8:22]I could totally see my kids saying that.
[8:23]Well, my kids don't even want to walk like to the garage, which is like two blocks away.
[8:26]But anyway.
[8:29]But then to remember, like, they complain about everything.
[8:31]Like, I think this is one of those parenting things, like just because they complain.
[8:35]Doesn't mean it's not going to be greater worthwhile.
[8:36]Like, having to push through all the complaining, I think it's like the secret to getting
[8:41]any good experience with the child because they're always going to push back.
[8:44]I don't know why.
[8:45]Oh, my kids always say, no, I don't want to do that.
[8:47]Like, okay.
[8:48]Anyway, get shoes on.
[8:49]Let's go.
[8:50]Yeah.
[8:51]I know like having the greatest time ever and like, can we go home?
[8:54]I'm exhausted.
[8:55]You know, but it's funny.
[8:58]That's it.
[8:59]Yeah.
[9:00]I'm glad that your year kids are like that mine or two.
[9:01]No, it's the first day.
[9:02]I have everything.
[9:03]Yeah.
[9:04]And you know, one of the nice things about the community is you start to see your own patterns
[9:07]of thinking, your own emotional cycles.
[9:10]And there's two.
[9:11]Mm-hmm.
[9:12]You can just sort of not react to them.
[9:14]Yes.
[9:15]The key there, you know, parenting isn't just don't react to my God.
[9:19]Yes.
[9:20]Because they push those buttons and, you know, they poke the bear and all those things
[9:24]and whatever.
[9:25]And they're just not react.
[9:27]Yeah.
[9:28]Especially when like, he wrote each morning about how he had all these different strategies
[9:33]for like getting Sam out the door and like, would you just put the time later?
[9:37]Would you like, how can you get this, how can you just get going?
[9:40]I mean, we were walking in August, which in northern Spain is blisteringly hot.
[9:45]So you want to be off the road by mid after and you don't want to still be walking
[9:48]at two, three in the afternoon when it's 110 degrees in the sun with no shade.
[9:52]But yeah, my son being 19 wants to sleep till noon and I'm like, dude, this is not going
[9:58]to happen.
[9:59]Yes.
[10:00]And I also didn't want to go through a day.
[10:02]And it's like, I'm not waiting.
[10:03]I'm leaving.
[10:04]I didn't want to walk without him.
[10:05]The whole point was to walk without him.
[10:07]No, the tear, but as a parent, you
[10:09]know, you left with that ad when I want to do a lesson.
[10:11]I'm not going to put him through my life.
[10:13]And yeah, I'll miss him if he's not here.
[10:14]And you know, you can't.
[10:16]You can't.
[10:16]You do damn if you die.
[10:17]You know, it's a tear.
[10:20]Well, I love how it all just like played out.
[10:22]Like it played out in light because you
[10:23]take everything else away.
[10:24]Like you left all of the real meat of the relationship, right?
[10:28]when you take out all the distractions and just
[10:30]put the open road and you have to work it all out.
[10:33]That's true.
[10:34]You take away all the distractions, you know?
[10:36]And but you're still you in the relationship,
[10:38]the relationship with the, you know, you can.
[10:40]There's space for it to have a little bit more.
[10:45]Affection to in a certain way to have a common goal.
[10:48]And you do realize this is hard and it's hard.
[10:51]How are you doing?
[10:52]I'm tired.
[10:52]How are you doing?
[10:53]Yeah, I'm OK.
[10:55]There's some kind of solidarity in that.
[10:57]It's like, you know, like, is it my,
[10:59]you sit my son down to talk and I can get anything out of it.
[11:01]But you get a move, you know, it's like,
[11:03]you go up and can talk to their kids when they're in the cars
[11:05]because you go in some way, you've got to focus,
[11:07]you don't have to sit down and look at each other.
[11:09]And walking is the same kind of way,
[11:10]except you've got the physical happening,
[11:12]which is great.
[11:13]That's physical rhythm of walking and walking
[11:16]does something to our brains that really relax
[11:18]is the ultimately, you know.
[11:20]And so, and to be doing it, you know,
[11:24]we're both doing the same thing is, you know, kind of great.
[11:29]Because how many times in our life are we doing the same thing
[11:31]with our kids, where either, you know,
[11:32]and I had the notion at the beginning of like,
[11:34]I have to take care of him now, even though I didn't.
[11:36]I mean, he's more capable than I am to do,
[11:39]but you know, that's still the historical relationship
[11:41]that I've got to take care of.
[11:43]And to realize at a certain point,
[11:44]now he's kind of helping me now, you know,
[11:47]because at the beginning he's sort of uncertain
[11:49]where to go and I'm like, let's, let's do this.
[11:51]This is what we do and then at a certain point,
[11:53]which is more or too long together in certain points,
[11:55]like one time I write in the book where I fell and tripped
[11:57]and he was like, wow, that's really scary.
[11:59]And he helped me and, you know, and he's going beyond me,
[12:03]like, and so, and right, all the cheap metaphors are all work,
[12:07]you know.
[12:08]And also when he was, when you were lost for a second
[12:11]and he was like, no, no, I've been falling long
[12:13]after that the whole time.
[12:14]And you're like, what?
[12:15]I think, man, yeah, I won't point where lost
[12:18]and he pulls out his phone.
[12:19]I'm like, don't look at your phone now, Sam.
[12:21]Come on, we have to, you know, and I'm doing that.
[12:23]and it's like, it's this way, dad.
[12:24]I'm like, what is that?
[12:25]Because it's my Snapchat, man.
[12:26]He's the road's right here.
[12:27]We're over there.
[12:29]What if, you know, but that taps into the whole thing,
[12:32]like, we have so much to learn from our kids.
[12:35]Right.
[12:36]It's true.
[12:36]I mean, I was supposed to learn from them and, you know,
[12:38]we're so busy thinking we're right all the time
[12:40]and we're wanting to be right and hold on to being right
[12:43]even when we know might not be.
[12:44]And, you know, let them know better sometimes.
[12:47]It's a great thing for us then, though.
[12:50]How did your other kids feel about this big special trip
[12:53]between the two of you and even the fact
[12:55]that it's now a book?
[12:56]Like, are they like, could I please have something?
[12:58]Or is it the age that it doesn't even matter anymore?
[13:01]Well, my daughter would, you know,
[13:03]we'd face time on the way.
[13:04]My daughter was 15, I guess, at the time.
[13:06]And she goes, it's your favorite child calling.
[13:10]Just to remind me, like, she's,
[13:12]why don't I don't think we'd want to walk across Spain?
[13:14]But she said, how about Paris, you know?
[13:17]Get in my nine-year-old, recently, the book,
[13:22]you know, when you write a book and before it comes out,
[13:24]you sort of get a couple copies in the mail
[13:25]and they came and I opened the box
[13:27]and my son was there my nine-year-old
[13:29]and he picked it up and read a page or two
[13:31]and he looked at it and he then closed the book
[13:33]and he said, it would have been better
[13:34]for me, it's about me.
[13:39]You know, if anyone wanted to do it, of course,
[13:41]I would go in an instant, but I can't imagine
[13:43]that my daughter would on my son, you know, we'll see.
[13:46]I may not be able to make the walk by the time
[13:48]I can get sold or not.
[13:50]Even when he finally says, like, okay, yeah,
[13:52]I'll take you up on this and, like, literally
[13:54]in next sentences and then I went to the next gym
[13:56]and I was, I ordered the tickets, like,
[13:59]because I feel like any time kids give you
[14:01]just a little doorway to me or like, boom,
[14:04]I have to take advantage of this immediately.
[14:07]Oh, yeah, when my son finally said,
[14:09]y'all go on that walk with you
[14:10]and I literally walked to the other room
[14:12]and bought two tickets at that instant
[14:14]and we were playing two days later.
[14:16]I just, my wife said,
[14:17]I'm going to Spain with Sam and she's like,
[14:19]okay, when?
[14:20]Two days.
[14:22]Okay, and because I knew he would change his mind
[14:25]if I did, and suddenly we were in Spain
[14:27]before he even knew what was happening to him, you know,
[14:29]and I'm glad we did because even not just our kids,
[14:34]but most people would talk themselves out of this trip
[14:36]very easily.
[14:37]Yes.
[14:38]I do think it's kind of thing you just go,
[14:41]you just go, people ask me, well, what do I need to do?
[14:42]I go, you need to go.
[14:44]Oh, I need to care walking shoes and go.
[14:46]Everything else you can,
[14:47]you're not walking the Appalachian Trail
[14:48]where you're carrying your world on your back.
[14:50]You're in society, you're in culture,
[14:52]you can buy a t-shirt, you don't get food,
[14:54]you're fine, go.
[14:55]And most people don't go as frankly fear,
[14:58]you know, people are frightened.
[15:00]And so fear stops us so much and I just, you know,
[15:04]I didn't want that to be the case.
[15:06]So obviously you used to be an actor like,
[15:10]or not you used to be,
[15:11]but obviously you started your career as a well-known actor
[15:14]and then had to, you found this whole other career
[15:17]as a travel writer and have really like leaned into that
[15:20]and done so much great work and also written
[15:23]now your third memoir.
[15:25]Like was writing something that when you were a kid,
[15:27]you were always like, well, this is when I,
[15:29]like when did acting intersect with writing,
[15:31]intersect with travel?
[15:33]Like how did that all happen?
[15:34]Well, I'm the Camino.
[15:36]My first Camino, when I had that moment,
[15:37]I had this moment in that kind of work,
[15:39]which is really how much fear had dominated my life
[15:43]was revealed to me, you know,
[15:44]and that was a real wide-light experience for me.
[15:46]And that changed my place in the world.
[15:49]And so I kept traveling after that first Camino
[15:51]and I kept traveling alone and going far from home.
[15:53]I found that further from home,
[15:54]I went the more at home in myself I felt, you know.
[15:57]And so I just started writing it down,
[15:59]writing down not a journal in any way,
[16:00]because I thought it was very indulgent journaling
[16:02]about me and me.
[16:03]And I just wrote about what I saw
[16:04]and where I went to know I talked to.
[16:06]And I did that for about a decade
[16:07]with just notebooks full of this stuff
[16:09]on these trips I would take.
[16:10]And then one day I decided I wanted to do something
[16:14]with that and I approached an editor to magazine
[16:16]and said, you know, you ought to let me write
[16:17]for your magazine.
[16:19]And he said, well, you're an actor dude.
[16:21]And I said, yeah, but I can tell a story.
[16:22]That's what I do for a living.
[16:23]And anyway, and I said, you thought that was a good answer.
[16:26]And I also said, it doesn't work out.
[16:27]You don't have to pay me.
[16:28]You thought that was a good answer.
[16:30]And so again, I became very successful,
[16:34]very quickly as travel writing for two reasons really
[16:36]because travel, I believe, is a really valuable thing
[16:39]in our lives.
[16:40]I don't think it's something that's about a bucket list
[16:43]or bragging rights or Instagram photos.
[16:46]I think it's about something that's profound
[16:48]and can change our place in the world, like it did for me.
[16:51]And so that's underneath all the stories that I write
[16:54]is it's still in the travel.
[16:55]It's valuing, meaningful, and go, go, go.
[16:59]And the other thing I knew intuitively
[17:01]was just a tell a story, don't sell a destination.
[17:04]And so things combined helped me be conversed.
[17:07]And I loved it.
[17:07]I loved travel writing because I loved it the way
[17:10]I loved acting when I started.
[17:12]And so if you love anything, it shows.
[17:14]And so the way my acting first, I say my writing
[17:18]groups is this accidental thing I had a passion for it.
[17:21]And it just sort of grew its own accord.
[17:23]In the same way, then I evolved into television
[17:25]directly and directed through these shows and things.
[17:27]So it's just, I follow these kind of nuggets of passion.
[17:32]So I'm not a very good businessman.
[17:33]I mean, you don't go pretty downwardly mobile to go
[17:36]from being in a movie actor to a travel writer.
[17:39]It's not a career path that many accounts would advise,
[17:43]but for many it's worked out.
[17:46]Well, I mean, obviously, this whole artistic piece
[17:50]doesn't always align perfectly with accountants and whatever.
[17:54]But that's all the glimmers are about.
[17:57]I mean, we have plenty of accountants in the world.
[17:59]I mean, it's OK.
[18:00]You don't have to do everything.
[18:04]Are there are there pieces that are now
[18:06]sort of glimmering to you more at this point
[18:08]that maybe you haven't explored as much like photography?
[18:12]Or is there anything else coming out now
[18:16]at the stage of life?
[18:18]I recently acted on a show again, a first season
[18:21]on a show called The Resident that I had an act that really
[18:24]in 10, 15 years much.
[18:26]And it was such a pleasure to go back to.
[18:28]I have to say, at the end of the day, I think ultimately,
[18:31]I discovered who I was at 15 when I acted for the first time
[18:35]high school play when that changed my life.
[18:38]So to go back to that, it was sort of like breathing to me.
[18:40]It's like that joke that the two fish
[18:42]are swimming in the water.
[18:43]And one says that they pass each other.
[18:45]And one says, morning ain't the water fine today?
[18:47]And the other says, well, water.
[18:50]You're of it.
[18:51]And acting when I started acting, and it was just like of me,
[18:53]I'm of acting.
[18:54]So it was interesting in a pleasure to go back to.
[18:57]So I made more of that.
[18:59]And I'm also continuing to write some stuff.
[19:02]So I get kind of bored.
[19:03]So I like doing all sorts of different things.
[19:05]The beauty of writing too is also
[19:07]you're not waiting for anyone to give you a chance to do it.
[19:09]You can just sit down and go.
[19:11]And there's something about sitting alone in a room
[19:14]and kind of whip something up that appeals to my temperament.
[19:19]Yeah.
[19:19]And I'm also someone who likes very few votes,
[19:22]the few of the votes in my life better.
[19:25]And so in writing, there's really only one vote.
[19:27]No, no negotiation needed.
[19:31]No.
[19:33]You can never be late.
[19:34]You could just do it yourself.
[19:35]That's funny.
[19:37]Do you have a go-to writing methodology?
[19:40]Do you like to write at home or in cafes or by hand
[19:43]or computer?
[19:44]Do you have a way you like to write the most?
[19:46]I do not write in cafes.
[19:48]I can't not do that.
[19:50]Nor do I like that.
[19:51]I feel too vulnerable, but I can still too distracted.
[19:54]But that said, I can sort of write anywhere.
[19:56]And I've written in the locker room in my kitchen now.
[20:00]the class. It's like, you know, I've written. So I just can't write in a cafe for so
[20:04]reason, but I'm kind of right anywhere. I used to be a body. I write at the kitchen table
[20:08]and there's chaos going around me often. The world, the things are falling and exploding.
[20:13]And I'm just there to try to turn to, you know, and when, and I'm also thinking, I
[20:17]when will everyone go out? Can I just please leave? And then the same thing, I'm like,
[20:22]oh, yeah, what do I do now? And I stumble around doing nothing until it's like,
[20:27]they're going to be home in 45 minutes. Oh, and then I, yeah, let them in my head. Why are they coming
[20:32]back when I said I need time to write when I wasted the whole day? So that's what we do with
[20:38]our loved ones is blame them for our own family, right? And I tend to do better in the morning
[20:43]because my brain just by the end of the day, my brain's mush and I can't really think of it.
[20:49]And how about books you like to read? Are you a big travel reader? Like, and who are some of your
[20:53]your go-to's for that? I'm sorry for all the sirens. Yeah.
[20:58]Paul Perrus books changed my life. They really did. They offered me his books like the old
[21:03]Patagonian Express and the great railway bazaar and things like that made that I read the old
[21:08]Patagonian Express. Someone gave me that. And it was, you know, basically his notion of go, go alone,
[21:13]go far, get out of touch for a long time. Was I was like, wow, I never considered that kind of
[21:19]travel. And that's so I started doing that. And that was a real game changer for me.
[21:24]But I don't read a lot of travel writing anymore. I have been, and I discovered during the pandemic
[21:32]I got a scuba audiobooks in a way I never had listening to a lot of audiobooks, which I really
[21:36]enjoy. If you get a good reader, you have to have a good reader. And I've gotten into a lot of
[21:41]true life spy stuff. I've become. I like the idea of the compartmentalization that people can do
[21:47]of their lives just fascinates me. These people are doing spy doing all the stuff and they have a
[21:51]wiping kids at home that don't know nothing about their life. I'm just like, wow,
[21:56]earth, I'm doing that. It's just kind of fascinating. It doesn't work. Of course, it always blows up.
[22:00]And I've opened these kind of true life spy stuff that I just find really interesting.
[22:05]It's a deep rabbit hole. And I'm in it. I bet. Yeah, I feel like if there's one thing that most
[22:11]books that are great have in common, it has something to do with keeping secrets.
[22:16]Secrets of obviously the spy thing, which is completely obvious. But even like the secrets we
[22:23]keep from our kids. But that's interesting. That was one of the things in walking and
[22:29]there was a bit in the book of that. How much of myself am I showing my kid? What is what
[22:34]am I burdening them with? That shouldn't go on them. And they're not my pal, my buddy. They're
[22:39]my son here. And yet, by withholding, am I really just withholding from them and being, because I
[22:46]don't want to go there in myself and expose myself and make myself vulnerable to them. So it's a
[22:51]fine line. It's difficult to know exactly what the right thing is there. Because if you want them
[22:57]to see you in a way, when you're getting to move beyond the parent child dynamic into two adults
[23:03]having this relationship, you've got to let them see you. And that's vulnerable making. And
[23:08]so it's a tricky one that we wrestle with. And I continue to wrestle with in that one. But
[23:16]it's interesting, the idea of secrets and revealing and sharing. Because what's the difference between
[23:20]sort of, you know, if you're not going to share with somebody, they're not going to feel safe to
[23:24]share with you. But on the other hand, it's like, that's not their problem. You still want to,
[23:30]you know, so I don't know what the answer is ultimately with that. And you know, you just sort of
[23:33]stumble back and forth across that line. I think in a certain way, you kind of go, that didn't
[23:38]feel he didn't receive that. Okay. And you know, the way kids will receive something at one age
[23:43]that they wouldn't have received two years early. And so learning that and knowing that,
[23:48]it's a imperfect science. That's for sure. I'm pretty imperfect.
[23:55]I'm, I will join you in the imperfect vote. I've sort of opted for more sharing than less recently,
[24:01]but I don't know who knows if I'm doing it, right? I guess it's not a way to do, you know,
[24:06]I have two in there very, you know, and, yeah, and it's not a big deal. Because then they know,
[24:13]because that's how they learn from us, right? It's my, we do, they don't listen to anything, say
[24:18]god knows. But like, they see me do and they go, they'll, it's the same question. And that's
[24:23]how you do that. And that's all I'm always saying, my kid is just encouraging to just talk, just talk,
[24:27]like my kids in the book, and they would say, I mean, talk about his drug use.
[24:31]And so like, you know, I had my own problems with alcohol, drugs, I'm very liberal with talking
[24:35]about it with them. And but, you know, I can't say you can't do that. And you do not want to be
[24:39]doing those drugs. You know, and I can listen, they're going to shut down and not come to you again.
[24:44]And, you know, any teenager, and or young adult, the mass majority are going to experiment with
[24:50]that stuff. And to pretend they're not, or to think they're not, or to shut that down,
[24:55]that conversation down is a fool's error in my opinion. And so, you know, and it's a slippery
[25:02]slope. Everyone has to navigate for themselves that. But they are experimenting with sex and
[25:07]with drugs and alcohol. And to ignore that and or turn a blind eye to that, or to forbid that
[25:12]discussion. I don't know, they're going to have it somewhere else then. I'd rather have them
[25:16]kind of go in, you know, and I'll tell my opinion, I endlessly tell my kids, you know,
[25:21]the only thing that can destroy your life is drugs and alcohol, destroyed mine,
[25:25]will destroy yours, everybody's the same in that regard. But do what you got to do, but I'm just
[25:30]telling you. I love when you're like, okay, then my son is smoking, but I made him ask it in Spanish
[25:37]for cigarettes, like that I wasn't going to ask for. I'm not that cigarette for me from that guy.
[25:42]I'm like, no way. I want to ask him, here's how you say it. And now you go ask.
[25:48]Oh, my God, I just read about him sneaking around to go, I got to go like a call on him
[25:53]running out and sneaking a cigarette for God's sake. No, it's true. It's like, you're like teaching,
[25:58]you're like, teach a man to fish or whatever. It's so funny. Right. How is your relationship now
[26:05]now that the, you know, after all this and the buck and do you think it all made it better?
[26:09]Well, I don't know the need to be made better. I think it's made it richer. It's made me kind of
[26:14]calm down a little bit. I think about feeling the precariousness of it that he'll go and be gone
[26:20]and never see him again. And I think it's helped him trust me a little. And I think that's all
[26:27]what we've been talking about by revealing and not trying to know better, but just kind of going,
[26:32]this is my experience, you know, and sharing as opposed to telling, you know, so I think it's
[26:38]and it was something that was great fun and it was great, you know, it was great. It was like,
[26:42]you can't take it away from us. We did that together, you know, that's whenever we do that with,
[26:47]you know, and that's one of the things that traveled us so well. It's an easy and fun way to sort of
[26:51]like, remember that thing, you know, travel burns us to innocence and a sense of wonder that we
[26:57]so often don't have in our day-to-day lives. And when you can share moments of wonder with people,
[27:02]that sort of wide open, we're experiencing wonder, you know, and so it's a room for love to get it
[27:07]in there, you know, so. Well, last question. So if you're going to take if you would
[27:12]take your daughter to Paris for her, sort of, where where would you go with your youngest?
[27:17]What would that book be? Well, I just took my youngest. We just got back two days ago,
[27:21]we were in Botswana. I was writing a travel story for magazine and I took them on
[27:25]so far with me to Botswana and to the deep push of Botswana, and that was kind of a pretty intense
[27:30]experience. But it was fantastic and great, but it was a lot for
[27:36]you know, you really realized how much burden of responsibility you feel with these, with our kids,
[27:42]you know, and how much of it is real and how much of it is just self-imposed and self-congratulatory
[27:47]in the sense of you feel this weight of responsibility. And when you're in a place where you really
[27:52]are responsible in a real way, all that sort of brandiosity of responsibility and accountability
[27:58]falls away because the reality of a situation asserts itself, you know what I mean? And so
[28:03]to just sort of be there with my little guy, and that was kind of fantastic. But we're real,
[28:09]our book, I don't know, we can use older. Probably won't be Botswana, but
[28:17]amazing. Well, thanks so much. Thanks for chatting about the book and everything else and
[28:22]congratulations and can't wait to follow your future travels. Oh great, thanks, it really enjoyed it.
[28:27]Okay, take care. Bye bye.
[28:30]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to
[28:35]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign
[28:40]up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors
[28:45]on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing.
[28:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outroom music.