Katherine Heiny, GAMES AND RITUALS: Stories
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[1:03]Katherine Heiney is the author of Games and Rituals Stories.
[1:07]She is the author of Early Morning Riser and was on this podcast to discuss that.
[1:12]If you want to go back, standard deviation and single, carefree mellow.
[1:15]And her short fiction has appeared in the New Yorker at the Atlantic and many other magazines.
[1:20]She has lived in London, the Hague, and boy in Sydney, Michigan, and now lives in Maryland
[1:23]with her husband and children.
[1:25]I caught her on vacation in Florida.
[1:27]Welcome, Katherine.
[1:28]Thank you so much for coming back on Momstone.
[1:30]Have time to read books to discuss Games and Rituals Stories.
[1:34]Thank you.
[1:35]Thank you for having me.
[1:38]You are so funny.
[1:39]Like, your sense of humor is so amazing in these stories.
[1:42]You're just like, so clever and so, like unexpected and I don't know, you're just your
[1:50]view of like human nature and how people interact.
[1:54]And I mean, I first of all, I will never take a driving test again the same way.
[1:57]But all your stories.
[1:58]I mean, it's really amazing.
[2:00]I just, I'm such a huge fan.
[2:01]You're such a huge talent and it's just wonderful to read.
[2:04]Thank you.
[2:05]Well, can you tell listeners about the story collection and why a story collection after
[2:11]early morning riser and when these stories started and just all the back, the back story
[2:16]of the stories?
[2:17]Sure.
[2:18]The DMV story, the first one comes to you courtesy of my son's driving test.
[2:26]I took him there for the road test and then we had to go sit in a different part of
[2:32]the DMV.
[2:33]But I could see the driving examiners and one of them was a woman.
[2:38]And because I watched a lot of true crime, I was like, you know, Ted Bundy had a driver's
[2:44]license.
[2:45]That means somebody gave him a driving test and maybe that was the woman.
[2:50]I think that, well, I shouldn't speak for everyone.
[2:54]I can only speak for myself, but I think I write to make sense of the world.
[2:58]I write to process things.
[3:01]I love it that you're nodding, really.
[3:03]I'm nodding.
[3:04]I do the same thing.
[3:05]I totally understand.
[3:06]So I think when I'm tense or stressed, I write more because I'm trying to process things.
[3:11]So like I wrote the whole outline of that story on like a receipt from my purse.
[3:17]It just came to me very quickly and I knew the broad strokes of it.
[3:22]And then I actually wrote it before like driving out of state to get an abortion, became
[3:29]such a topical like I very accidentally wrote a politically like hell of a story that never
[3:36]happens to be before.
[3:38]So that incident actually happened just before the pandemic.
[3:43]And then I didn't write the story till 2021.
[3:47]I had a lot of trouble writing during the actual lockdown part of the pandemic, which I think
[3:54]is because while we were all super stressed, but also I think I was too isolated and
[4:01]I didn't have enough exposure to like funny things.
[4:06]Like once I took the, before the pandemic, I flew to Michigan to see my parents and a man
[4:13]on the flight told me politely that the legs of his underpants were too tight.
[4:20]And I was just like, that's a gift, like I was so happy.
[4:27]I was like, is everything that happens to me from here on out going to be like less than
[4:31]but so it's being out and being inspired by things that happen even if they're not what
[4:35]you write, they sort of put you in the mode to write.
[4:38]So I would say about half the stories were written in the time between standard deviation
[4:45]and early morning riser, I wrote some stories.
[4:48]And then the other half were planned during the pandemic and then written in like a big
[4:53]burst, right, probably right around starting in maybe spring of 21, except there's one story,
[5:00]the title story, games and rituals.
[5:04]I actually wrote that when I was in graduate school and we found it when we were moving.
[5:12]And my husband read it and he said, I love it.
[5:15]I want it to be in your new book and I want that to be the title and nobody ever likes
[5:20]my titles.
[5:21]So I thought, well, maybe they'll like Eos and it was funny because I updated it a little
[5:26]bit and then my editor read it and she was like, it's almost like this takes place in
[5:32]the 90s and I was like, well guess what, it takes place in 80s, updated it.
[5:40]And because it was really hilarious, people were like leaving each other voicemails and
[5:44]home answering machines and stuff.
[5:45]But so I have such a fondness for that story and like my children are now older than
[5:51]I was when I wrote that story.
[5:53]It's a really weird, you know, lion king circle of life.
[6:00]They're not writers, so it's not really, but and then in this, the second story is
[6:05]called Damascus and it's about the mother who suspects her teenage son of smoking weed.
[6:16]And when I was in high school and I would go out drinking to parties, I would come home
[6:21]and my current bedroom was right at the top of the stairs.
[6:23]So I would go in there and I would basically do stand up in front of their, you know,
[6:29]at the foot of their bed for half an hour before I went to bed and my parents never
[6:33]ever thought it was anything other than, you know, spontaneous sociability.
[6:39]And so I wanted to write the story about a mother who sort of projecting her own teen
[6:45]years onto like her very nice teen son and that's how that story came about.
[6:51]And then I really, I sort of stalled out with the idea until I thought of the idea that
[6:56]maybe like she does the drugs that she's not worried about him and that really allowed
[7:02]me to finish the story.
[7:04]And also she has an ex-husband with whom she has a very complicated relationship.
[7:11]And I think I like to write about relationships after they've ended, like what's left
[7:17]over and the fact that neither of those characters have gotten married to anybody else
[7:23]in 12 years makes me think like there's, there's still a connection there.
[7:28]Wait, can we talk about Damascus for a minute because you're kind of obsessed with this
[7:32]because you know, with all your story, you just don't know, you don't see where it's
[7:36]going at all.
[7:37]Like, and I love these, you know, whether it's going off the embankment literally in one
[7:42]story or the drug use of the mom and like actually kind of like the, you know, the sexual
[7:48]assault and like awful stuff that happens to her that she's so flippant about, you know,
[7:51]in her own high school years, but there's this passage, can I read like two paragraphs?
[7:56]Is that okay?
[7:57]Sure.
[7:58]You wrote me a new how drug you started.
[7:59]It started for her when she got invited to a party.
[8:02]It was the kind of party that other kids went to every single weekend, but she only got
[8:05]invited this one time and she wanted to make sure she got invited again.
[8:09]So when someone passed a joint around this party and everyone looked at me and expected
[8:12]at least she took a hit saw them still looking and took another hit.
[8:16]Me I really had been shit at resisting peer pressure in high school, but over time she
[8:19]began to think these other kids were onto something being high made every cell in your
[8:24]body relax made every social situation manageable.
[8:28]She became funny and extroverted and suddenly she had tons of friends, tons of parties to go
[8:32]to.
[8:33]She had begun to feel that stone to Mia was the real Mia and sober Mia was like someone
[8:38]with an unmedicated condition and ulcer or a migraine and nobody thought people with ulcers
[8:43]or migraines shouldn't be medicated.
[8:46]One had the right to treat their afflictions.
[8:48]Soon Mia had to smoke in the morning before school and at lunch hour and during bathroom
[8:52]breaks in the afternoon because the afternoons were just too fucking long without it.
[8:56]And after school and before dinner and after dinner and before bed never mind the weekends
[9:00]when it was one long inhalation from Friday afternoon to Monday mornings.
[9:03]I'm obsessed with this passage and also just having been a very shy teenager and felt having
[9:11]felt much more open when I was drinking, not that I want my kids to hear this, but you
[9:15]know I do write about it, but it's fine.
[9:17]Just the fact that there is this solution to like introversion essentially that Mia has
[9:22]ulcers or stumbled upon.
[9:24]So I don't know.
[9:25]I related and like just love that passage.
[9:28]I remember writing, I had written maybe two thirds of the story.
[9:33]I don't write chronologically, I write like the, you know, I'll leave like two question
[9:38]marks and then I'll come back to it later.
[9:40]So I know I remember writing that thinking like I need a transition scene here to like
[9:47]explain her past drug usage and then I remember writing it and it being making me really
[9:53]happy and the whole idea like I get my grades.
[9:57]So I was like, you know, we all do have the right.
[10:00]to treat our afflictions,
[10:01]which seems like the totally self-serving,
[10:04]but sort of also weirdly proceed things, teens say.
[10:08]We say these really judgmental sort of pure 10 things,
[10:13]and it's very funny.
[10:14]I like to write about teachers teenagers a lot.
[10:17]Yes.
[10:18]Well, teens, I mean, there's so much material there.
[10:21]Yeah, I have two teenagers right now myself,
[10:25]and I feel like I could fill many books,
[10:28]just documenting what they do and say every day.
[10:32]But well, I feel like in an uncertain world,
[10:38]teenagers are always going to make bonkers decisions.
[10:42]You can rely on it.
[10:44]Well, that's even like how you write in the DMV story
[10:47]about just that teenagers, like, it's almost like they're just
[10:51]so stupid.
[10:52]Like they make these driving judgment calls
[10:55]because they just lack, obviously we all
[10:57]know the prefrontal cortex.
[10:58]It is not fully developed for teenagers,
[11:00]but just like the decisions of like taking off
[11:02]a sweatshirt in the middle of an intersection,
[11:06]or just like things that they just don't think it's through.
[11:08]And you're almost forgiving of it.
[11:11]It's not even their fault.
[11:13]They just like don't even know any of that error.
[11:15]He's the way they are.
[11:17]When my younger son chose the college
[11:21]that he wanted to go to, he like actually researched it
[11:23]and based on like these are the classes I want to take.
[11:28]Where the most people that I went to high school
[11:30]with chose college based on whether like the cafeteria
[11:33]served caffeinated beverages, you know, there was no,
[11:39]I don't know.
[11:39]I just think teenagers are really dangerous and crazy
[11:42]for a long time, but we're all used to it.
[11:45]So yeah, you just go with it.
[11:47]Yeah.
[11:48]Yeah.
[11:49]Well, anyway, I cut you off and started having you talk
[11:51]about Damascus, but if you want to run through the rest
[11:54]or whatever you were doing like there.
[11:56]Well, then there's, I'm thinking of the order,
[11:59]then there's the story, Twist and Shout,
[12:02]which is about a woman whose elderly father
[12:06]mistakes his hearing aid per cashew and eat.
[12:09]Look, which is the, I'm dead, dead, stop.
[12:13]Now he did, and well, first of all,
[12:17]he had these really rubbish hearing aids
[12:19]that he got from like something that he rode away
[12:23]in the back of a magazine.
[12:26]And then I saw them.
[12:28]I think this is so bizarre,
[12:29]but I think it's on real housewives of Beverly Hills.
[12:32]One of them was talking about their super expensive
[12:35]great hearing aids.
[12:36]And I was like, Dad needs this.
[12:38]I made these appointments, I flew to Michigan,
[12:41]I took them to the appointments,
[12:43]and it was really, really helping.
[12:46]And then he was having some cashews and he took it out,
[12:50]and then I guess he didn't notice.
[12:52]I don't know, he crunched it up.
[12:54]So we had to go to the audiologist
[12:55]and I told them what happened to them.
[12:57]Like, is that not the most hilarious thing ever?
[13:00]And they were like, oh, it happens all the time.
[13:02]And it was still under warranty.
[13:03]So.
[13:04]Oh my gosh.
[13:05]Wait, did you go to another doctor?
[13:07]Like, did you win?
[13:09]No, no, like, you have to talk to like an internist
[13:12]about what happens when you eat a hearing aid.
[13:14]He spit it out.
[13:15]Oh, okay.
[13:16]Nice to know.
[13:21]And that was another story that I sort of, I started,
[13:25]and I didn't know where it was going.
[13:27]And then this is gonna sound so depressing,
[13:30]but my dad actually died at the end of 2020.
[13:34]Sorry.
[13:35]There were like three stories in the collection
[13:37]that deal with an elderly parent dying,
[13:40]and it's once again,
[13:41]because I was trying to make sense of it.
[13:44]I feel like I'm about to make you cry, and I'm really sorry.
[13:47]No, no, no.
[13:49]You just looked very sad and sympathetic
[13:51]and I thought, oh, I'm not actually gonna cry.
[13:53]I feel really sad that you had to go through that,
[13:56]and it's really, I don't know, it's very sad.
[13:59]So it was just my heart was going at you, that's all.
[14:01]But I'm okay.
[14:02]I'm okay.
[14:03]I mean, it was my dad was 92,
[14:06]and he thought he had like the greatest life ever,
[14:11]which he did cause he's married to my mom.
[14:13]And for other reasons, but it really,
[14:16]it made it a lot easier saying goodbye,
[14:17]knowing he thought he had like a really great run,
[14:20]which he did.
[14:22]So that was, and my dad is very, was very conservative,
[14:26]although not as conservative as the dad in the story.
[14:31]And once when I took my dad to the audiologist,
[14:35]this was after he'd eaten the hearing aid,
[14:37]and he couldn't hear anything.
[14:39]And there was another man in the hearing,
[14:43]in the audiologist waiting room,
[14:44]and he was there with his mom.
[14:45]And he and I could like hear each other,
[14:47]so we got really excited to talk to each other.
[14:50]And I remember thinking in the story,
[14:51]like I want him to be in it.
[14:53]I want him to be like, the husband she would have
[14:57]in this ultimate universe.
[15:00]But then as I was writing the story,
[15:01]it became funnier to make it like about her teenage self.
[15:04]See, I always go back to,
[15:06]it's being the mother of teenagers,
[15:08]those constantly inspiring.
[15:11]So, how old are your teenagers now?
[15:14]They are actually 20 and 22.
[15:17]So they're not quite teenagers anymore,
[15:20]although I think the pandemic put everybody back,
[15:23]much pretty wise by like five years.
[15:25]So, yeah, how old are your teenagers?
[15:29]15, they're twins.
[15:31]Oh, okay, yeah, that's a lot.
[15:36]I'm trying to think of the other stories.
[15:39]And you don't have to go through every single one
[15:42]if you don't want, but I'm loving hearing
[15:44]the backstory of these, of the stories.
[15:46]Okay, the first one that we're talking about,
[15:47]the DMV was called Chicken Flavored and Lemon-Centered
[15:50]based on the Chelsea Girls, Damascus, twist and shout,
[15:53]turn back, turn back, games and rituals, Cobra, 561,
[15:58]pandemic behavior, bridesmaid revisited King Midas
[16:01]and Skybar.
[16:02]Turn back, turn back is I had an idea
[16:06]of this couple meeting in their New York kitchen
[16:10]and discussing his infidelity,
[16:14]but masked in the parameters of the fairytale
[16:18]the Robert bridegroom, where she said,
[16:21]where in the story that beautiful maiden says,
[16:25]if I, you know, it was all a dream
[16:27]as she like lays out the Robert bridegroom's crimes.
[16:31]And so I had this idea and it took me 35 years
[16:36]to write the story.
[16:38]Now I had to get some, took me a while to work out the details.
[16:42]I just remember having that very specific idea,
[16:45]but not knowing how to make it a story
[16:48]because I was like 22 and not, you know,
[16:53]sometimes I could recognize material,
[16:55]but not be able to do anything with it.
[16:58]So that was a really gratifying story to write after so long.
[17:02]Wait, how do you not lose all those ideas?
[17:05]Like even the receipt that you would do,
[17:07]like pin it up to a bulletin board,
[17:08]how did you remember this idea to have a notebook?
[17:10]Like where, I don't remember anything I was thinking
[17:13]from 35 years ago, basically.
[17:15]I just have that kind of memory.
[17:17]I never forget anything.
[17:19]Well, although a really funny story thing is that
[17:22]in turn back, turn back, she finds the Starbucks receipt
[17:26]and that's what starts making her suspicious
[17:28]of her husband.
[17:29]So when I was finally writing the story,
[17:32]I went to Starbucks and I was like,
[17:35]I mean, about a coffee and then I was like,
[17:36]now what could I find from the receipt if I was looking?
[17:39]And they were super helpful.
[17:41]And then when I left, the girl was like,
[17:43]I'm so sorry about your husband.
[17:46]I think she didn't believe in that story at all.
[17:49]She was like, oh, and that was great.
[17:53]And I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure she,
[17:56]who knows what other misunderstandings it led to.
[17:59]But that was a really fun story to write
[18:02]because it's more like a detected story
[18:04]than I usually write.
[18:06]So that was fun.
[18:08]And then in pandemic behavior,
[18:12]I get my grades and they got a lot worse
[18:14]during the pandemic and I did start getting these injections.
[18:19]And like I have my husband to inject me,
[18:22]it's very hard to inject yourself.
[18:24]But I was like, what if I didn't have him?
[18:26]What if it was just like some clueless roommate?
[18:29]And then I began writing that story
[18:32]and I loved the roommate so much.
[18:35]The whole book, I loved writing,
[18:38]but the speech, the drunk speech
[18:40]that Lohanie gives about bikini waxes
[18:43]is probably my favorite part.
[18:46]That was probably the most fun.
[18:47]Oh my gosh.
[18:51]Basically, the stories are like, it's like stand up.
[18:55]It's like you just observe and you laugh to yourself
[18:58]and then you turn them into stories
[19:00]for the rest of us to laugh at.
[19:01]It's very clever.
[19:03]That's a nice way to look at it.
[19:05]Yeah, I do remember funny things.
[19:09]I mean, they do stick out for me.
[19:11]And there's that part of Heartburn by Nara Afron
[19:16]where I just started rereading that.
[19:18]I bought it in the airport the other day.
[19:20]And I was like, I haven't read this in years.
[19:22]So now it's been reissued
[19:23]and I should totally read this again
[19:25]and maybe I'll have a new view of it.
[19:27]And I started, I was like, this is so good.
[19:29]It's even better than the first time I read it,
[19:31]like years ago.
[19:34]Have you only read it?
[19:34]This is only your second rereading?
[19:36]It's only my second reading.
[19:37]Oh my gosh.
[19:38]See, I think I reread it every time I mention it.
[19:41]I'll probably like start rereading it again.
[19:45]But there's a part where she talks about
[19:48]how her therapist says that when she retails the story,
[19:52]she varies it slightly to make it more interesting.
[19:55]And then narrator is like me, once I get a story going,
[19:58]I don't change a syllable.
[20:00]And I feel like maybe that's how I do remember things as I sort of craft them into a story.
[20:06]And then it's like easier to access because you're accessing the story rather than a ranch and with that.
[20:12]But yeah, this I told you at the beginning we are in Florida on vacation.
[20:19]And yesterday we all went swimming in the pool.
[20:22]And as my husband got out.
[20:24]Some man sitting there was like, are you British? What do you know about World War two?
[20:31]And so they had this like half an hour talk and I was like, it made my husband really happy from like, was this some sort of very specific honey trap situation?
[20:42]Like what are the odds the sky is just hanging out there? And so like I always remember that because it was it was really funny and we made fun of my husband the whole day about it.
[20:54]I might forget if there's as if there's a lack of people who know about World War two.
[20:59]I know it was a really weird sort of approach.
[21:03]Well, like to give that to every British person is a family like this is the fourth guy this week you bombarded about World War two.
[21:13]But my husband really likes to read books about military history and World War two in particular. So it was, you know, worked out.
[21:20]I thought of it. I kind of given him this as like an anniversary gift and he is a man.
[21:27]But it did actually happen spontaneous.
[21:30]Turns out like for now on this man like comes in all your family vacations.
[21:34]Yeah, like parties you don't want to go to and like there he is in the corner and yeah.
[21:40]I love it. Okay. So when you're putting the stories together and like how important was the order to you?
[21:48]How much time did you spend on figuring out which went first? Like how did you do that?
[21:53]It was very important to me and usually I only like the story that I've most recently read.
[22:00]So like every time I would write a story it would go on at the beginning and they were going in, you know, and my editor saw that when she read it.
[22:09]And so we mixed it up a lot of different ways and tried to, you know, make a balance of there's a couple of first person stories.
[22:18]There's also a couple of stories that take place during the pandemic and a couple after the pandemic. So we wanted to to be evenly weighted.
[22:27]And how do you know when it's a story versus that you should save it and turn it into a novel?
[22:33]I think that well both my previous novels started out as short stories and I just had more things to say about those characters so I went back.
[22:41]But I also think that short stories that I used to write nothing ever happened.
[22:47]I just saw a character development. No plot whatsoever. I've learned to do that a little bit plot and I'm like, that shit is hard.
[22:57]I see why Stephen could think and out for Leonard get the big bucks. This is really difficult.
[23:03]I think the early stories that I wrote I was like wow I really like Jane and Duncan. I want to write a whole book about them.
[23:09]And here I felt like I was definitely choosing something. I was choosing stories that could only be told as a story that arc was smaller.
[23:19]There's I mean there are still things like last winter we had to get our furnace stopped working so we called the furnace guy he comes over.
[23:29]And he says he can only look at it. He can't do anything because he doesn't have his ban or his tools.
[23:36]Like why did he come. Yeah, and then he's like so it could be an air bubble. It could not be an air bubble. And I'm like shrouding our air bubble, which made me really happy he didn't laugh at all.
[23:50]I mean it was just like I was like I have to write a story about this guy. But then see he's a thing that I think he could work in a novel. He could be a character.
[24:01]So certain things just come to me. They seem like I could make a story of it. Stories are always easier than novels. So maybe it's just doing something that's easier.
[24:13]But yeah, I would say all the all the starts in the collection were inspired by some real event.
[24:20]That's awesome. And do you have a novel going now. I have a new one that I'm planning. Yeah, it has a lot of teenagers in it.
[24:28]I bet.
[24:29]And a lot of people make really bad decisions and it has lots of plot. But that's all I want to say.
[24:36]Sounds like good ingredients.
[24:39]Breakfast in your your plotting in Bravo.
[24:42]I always like to know like when I'm writing whatever project I always want to know what the next project is going to be.
[24:50]If I don't know that then I get nervous that there won't be another project.
[24:57]You're years and years and years. I didn't write anything. So I was sort of afraid. It's going to like go away again.
[25:03]So like you used it all up. You use the content up. There's no more. There will be no more ideas. And that was a fun run. And that's it.
[25:11]Pretty much.
[25:12]Yeah.
[25:15]Well, I just love the idea that you're going through life picking up these hilarious isolated moments and just
[25:22]and memorializing them in some way because life, I mean, the sense is stupid. What I'm best say, like life is so ridiculous and so crazy and so funny.
[25:31]And all the everyday stuff. I mean, it's like you're the like Seinfeld that did it one way. Right. Like just the money. And like this is like another way of.
[25:41]Of the everyday becoming like just.
[25:44]I don't know.
[25:45]Never mind.
[25:46]That's a huge compliment. But usually when I plan a story.
[25:51]The funny parts are the parts I write first. Those are the ones that I usually are the inspiration.
[25:57]But I think that any story.
[26:00]And this is also in a novel, but it has to be tighter in a short stories. You have to be waving to things together.
[26:09]It's not enough to be like.
[26:12]Like once when I.
[26:15]I think I was in graduate school and a man.
[26:20]I'd me through the like sneeze guard of a salad bar.
[26:24]And then tried to kiss me and what.
[26:27]He was like, I'm sorry, you reminded me of someone else and it was just bonkers.
[26:31]And I remember like wanting to write a story about it, but not knowing how to do it.
[26:37]And I think as you get older and wiser and the more you write, the stronger you get, then you learn there has to be these.
[26:46]At least two threads, maybe more that you're pulling in and weaving together.
[26:51]If it's going to be like a really satisfying short story that's going to maybe even like encapsulate characters whole life.
[26:59]Then there has to be some sort of texture some.
[27:06]Some weaving going on.
[27:08]Interesting. Okay, amazing.
[27:12]Okay, go back to the beach. Thank you for taking the time inside talking to me today.
[27:18]It was so fun.
[27:20]It was so fun. Thank you. I want to hear like all of the funny things that happened in your days.
[27:25]I, I get such a kick out of it. I love your sense of humor so much. Anyway, thank you.
[27:31]Oh, well, you're very welcome. Thanks for having Michelle. Of course, my pleasure.
[27:36]Just quickly tell me what I should read.
[27:39]I'm in a reading slump. You have to read Jane Roper's The Society of Shame.
[27:44]Okay.
[27:46]I just finished it two days ago and it's like a satire.
[27:51]And I laughed so hard.
[27:54]The first chapter I was crying, but I also had no expectations. I thought it wasn't going to be that.
[27:59]Like, I didn't know it was going to be funny. It didn't seem like it would be funny, but I, I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.
[28:05]It's by Jane Roper, but what's the title?
[28:07]The Society of Shame.
[28:09]Society of Shame. Okay, it comes out. I think in like two days or something, couple days.
[28:13]If it's not. Yeah, I think it comes out Tuesday.
[28:16]Okay. Anything else?
[28:20]Um, anything else. I just finished romantic comedy by Curtis Sinton felt.
[28:26]It was funny. Also very funny. What else? Enchantment. Catherine May.
[28:32]Okay. So she's more poetic beautiful, but also it's a lot about anxiety and, you know, it's a different take on.
[28:42]pandemic life and, you know, all of that. Not all about pandemic, but like she's very funny writing about how.
[28:49]I'll see what she wants to do is be on Twitter.
[28:51]And yet you're reading, you're like reading the book because she's talking about how she can't read.
[28:56]And yet you're reading it so you already like feel like you're doing better.
[29:01]This was a book last year, but we all want impossible things.
[29:08]My favorite book. So good.
[29:09]Favorite book of last year.
[29:11]I loved it so much.
[29:13]I can't even.
[29:14]I just reckon I just sold it in my bookstore yesterday to somebody.
[29:17]They were like, I need like a really great book and I was like, you have to read this book.
[29:20]This is so great.
[29:21]It made me want to go into hospice.
[29:24]Yeah.
[29:25]In the best way.
[29:26]Now, that was just such a standout book for me.
[29:29]Yes.
[29:30]I really feel like well, maybe I'll go read it again.
[29:32]Yeah.
[29:33]Well, between that and our friend, you should be pretty good.
[29:36]Well, I know it's only your second time through.
[29:39]I know.
[29:40]I know.
[29:41]It's so good again.
[29:42]I mean, I don't know.
[29:43]And I was younger when I read.
[29:44]Anyway.
[29:45]Well, what should I read?
[29:46]Have you read anything?
[29:47]Great.
[29:48]I'm just reading the story will change by Elizabeth Crane.
[29:53]Did you read?
[29:54]Tell me about that.
[29:55]I did not.
[29:56]It's about the end of her marriage, but it's.
[29:59]But it's.
[30:00]written all in the third person, like the wife and the husband, and it's very, very funny.
[30:06]I mean, it's sad, but it's funny. I really am liking that.
[30:09]Okay, who wrote that to you?
[30:10]And I liked either or, but not as much as I liked the idioms.
[30:17]Okay.
[30:17]I reread books a lot. I think I reread more than I like read new books.
[30:22]Interesting.
[30:23]I hardly ever reread.
[30:26]Yes.
[30:27]But Jenny Jackson told me that rereading is like comfort reading.
[30:34]It's like comfort eating.
[30:35]You know, it's going to taste a certain way and be really satisfying and you deserve it.
[30:41]So, yeah, so I've always done a lot of that.
[30:44]I love Jenny Jackson.
[30:45]I'm so excited for her and all of her success.
[30:47]It's so amazing.
[30:48]I know.
[30:49]Now, when she told me that she told a book, I was like,
[30:53]so everybody's going to know how cool and funny you are.
[30:56]Yeah, not for me.
[31:01]She's so awesome.
[31:02]Yeah.
[31:04]I feel like I want to be like, couldn't have happened to a nicer person.
[31:10]Um, that's awesome.
[31:13]Okay. Great.
[31:14]All right. Lots of reading now.
[31:16]Can't wait.
[31:16]All right.
[31:18]Let me know if I can add anything for clarity and any time you need anything.
[31:23]I'm here.
[31:24]Thank you.
[31:24]Me too.
[31:26]Thank you.
[31:27]All right.
[31:28]All right.
[31:29]Bye-bye.
[31:31]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[31:34]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[31:39]Also, sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club
[31:44]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[31:46]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[31:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.