Jennifer Savran Kelly, ENDPAPERS
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Jennifer Safran Kelly is the author of End Papers and Novel.
[1:08]She, her, they, them, lives in Ithaca, New York, where they write, bind books and work
[1:14]as a production editor at Cornell University Press.
[1:16]End Papers is their debut novel.
[1:18]In 2018, it won a grant from the Barbara Deming Memorial Fund.
[1:22]In 2019, it was selected as a finalist for the SFWP Literary Awards program.
[1:27]And for the James Joyce First Novel Fellowship, their short fiction has appeared in Hobart,
[1:32]Black Warrior Review, Green Mountains Review, Iron Horse Literary View, Grist, Eternal
[1:36]of the Literary Arts, and elsewhere.
[1:38]In 2014, they were selected to study in the writer-to-writer mentorship program of the
[1:43]association of writers and writing programs.
[1:45]Welcome, Jennifer.
[1:46]Thank you so much for coming on moms.
[1:48]Don't have time to read books or clearly moms, don't have time to host podcasts today.
[1:52]To talk about End Papers and Novel, I have a sick kid here, so thank you for going with
[1:56]the flip.
[1:57]Yeah.
[1:58]Thank you.
[2:00]Yeah, I'll get you.
[2:02]Okay, Jennifer, tell everybody about your book.
[2:06]My book, some of my book is the title is End Papers.
[2:10]And it's a literary mystery of sorts, a sort of bookish literary mystery about a gender
[2:16]queer book binder who is struggling both in her artistic life and in her relationship
[2:22]and also with her gender identity, and it's the early 2000s.
[2:26]So no mainstream pronouns to call on or words like non-binary or gender queer.
[2:33]And so near the beginning of the book, Dawn, the main character finds a letter underneath
[2:39]the End Papers of a book that she's repairing at work.
[2:43]And it's on the back of the torn-off cover of a lesbian pulp novel from the 1950s, and
[2:49]it's a love letter from one girl to another.
[2:51]And that's all she knows, because it's written in German.
[2:54]And so that sort of is the inciting action of the book and sets our main character on
[2:59]a journey to find out who wrote this letter, how their life went, and if it might help
[3:05]her make sense of her own identity and all of the issues that she's having.
[3:10]So yeah.
[3:11]Amazing.
[3:12]It's such a great premise for a book, I love it.
[3:15]And you do bookbinding yourself, or how did that tell us the whole backstory?
[3:19]I do.
[3:20]I do.
[3:21]I was thinking about this, just as I was getting on here, that there's a story that
[3:25]I've never told anybody, because it's really embarrassed.
[3:28]No, we love it.
[3:29]So maybe I'll never tell them before.
[3:32]So I was just a little bit obsessed with book arts, just as a person, when I graduated
[3:38]from college, and I moved to New York City, and I had this little studio apartment in Brooklyn,
[3:43]and I turned the kitchen into basically a papermaking studio.
[3:47]I wanted to teach myself how to make paper.
[3:49]And I thought, well, this is my space, and I can do it.
[3:52]So my very first sheet of paper that I made, like I blended some stuff up and some flowers
[3:57]and some paper.
[3:58]And the embarrassing part is that after I pulled my first sheet of paper and transferred
[4:02]the wet sheet onto whatever it was to dry, I immediately started imagining that I was going
[4:08]to be on a talk show someday.
[4:10]Oh.
[4:11]I think about, because everyone would want to know how I made a piece of paper in my
[4:15]Brooklyn.
[4:16]I am actually fascinated with how you made a piece of paper in your brother's apartment.
[4:22]So you thought to the right place, I love that this faux circle moment, but wait, seriously,
[4:27]go back to just how to make paper and even the desire to make your own paper.
[4:34]Like where do you even begin?
[4:36]So there are professional paper makers don't do it this way, but if you want to make
[4:41]paper at home, essentially you find old paper to recycle.
[4:45]Some people use dryer land, but I feel like it doesn't have a very papery texture.
[4:50]And you can put in dried flowers and all kinds of things.
[4:54]And then you get a blender and you add water, you blend it all up, and then you need
[5:00]screens and they have a real name that I'm forgetting right now, but essentially it's
[5:04]like a frame with like a screen on it and then another screen that doesn't have a screen.
[5:10]Okay.
[5:11]And I feel like I'm really letting down your audience right now by not remembering what
[5:15]these are called.
[5:16]You could make up.
[5:17]You could make up a word.
[5:18]We would never know the difference.
[5:19]Okay.
[5:20]And so then you put the plain screen on the plain frame on top of the one with the screen.
[5:25]You dip it into your that of water and paper pulp and you sort of shake it a little bit.
[5:31]I'm doing this, but I know your audience can't see.
[5:32]I'm doing the motion.
[5:33]Okay.
[5:34]Okay.
[5:35]And you pull it out.
[5:37]And then once the water drains out, you transfer it onto like a towel or something like
[5:44]a piece of flannel, something really smooth and you let it dry and then you have a piece
[5:49]of paper.
[5:50]Oh my gosh.
[5:51]Yeah.
[5:52]And you can also like be that like I was I would go up on my roof and like be it boiled
[5:55]death, a dills of the rolling pin and like I was very serious.
[5:58]I really wanted to make beautiful paper, but I didn't have a real papermaking studio.
[6:02]And I didn't know how you really make beautiful paper.
[6:06]You know, so I was just doing it in my kitchen.
[6:09]Wait.
[6:10]So then when you drive these individual pieces of paper out and then they drive, then
[6:13]what did you do with them?
[6:15]I collected them.
[6:17]Okay.
[6:18]I mean, I sometimes wrote notes on them.
[6:22]I would write thank you notes.
[6:24]I love writing letters to people and sort of a throwback.
[6:27]So I would collect them.
[6:28]I wanted to make my own artist books.
[6:31]And artists books are essentially works of art in book form.
[6:35]And so I was sort of just seeing what I could do, but I started with that and I hadn't
[6:39]actually found any books yet.
[6:41]That came after through my love of papermaking.
[6:44]I discovered the Center for Book Arts in New York.
[6:47]And I started taking classes.
[6:48]And then I took real papermaking classes with a real professional papermaker.
[6:53]And that was amazing.
[6:54]It was like blew my mind because you use things like cotton and linen rag and there are
[6:59]these beautiful like commercial vats and hydraulic presses and you know, a whole wet studio
[7:05]with a floor that's slanted toward a drain.
[7:07]And so you're just in there making a mess and making beautiful paper.
[7:12]And it's fantastic.
[7:13]I feel like this is a necessary field trip destination.
[7:18]They should have kids go and see how papers may because this is not like when I say commercial.
[7:24]This is also not like a factory.
[7:27]Like a factory.
[7:28]Yeah.
[7:29]You can paper, but yes, I agree.
[7:31]My school took kids to go to like a mata making factory once.
[7:34]I mean, it's not like a factory, you know, because a lot of it is by hand.
[7:37]It was that same thing.
[7:38]They like put on the little caps and I'm like, I would so love to go to a field trip myself.
[7:44]So maybe I'll suggest this to the school probably getting to you all, but no, no,
[7:51]chaperon.
[7:52]Yeah, so then you learn to make paper in these amazing classes and then talk about how
[7:58]that led to book binding and what that entails on your end.
[8:02]Yeah.
[8:03]So then I went to the Center for book arts, took book binding, paper making, letterpress
[8:08]printing, and then I got an internship.
[8:12]So I started calling, we still had the yellow pages when I was doing this, by the way.
[8:17]I remember the yellow pages, very well.
[8:19]It was pre everyone having internet in their house.
[8:23]So I actually was living in Brooklyn and I did the craziest thing.
[8:28]I opened the yellow pages and started looking for handbook binders in Brooklyn.
[8:33]And to my other shock, I found one within walking distance of my apartment and I called
[8:39]the binder and I said, hey, I'd really love to intern with you.
[8:43]What do I need to do?
[8:44]And she said, well, you know, what's your experience?
[8:46]I said, well, I'm taking a workshop right now.
[8:49]And she said, okay, is it like, did you finish it?
[8:52]I said, no, no, I've only taken two classes.
[8:55]And she said, okay, well, you know, it would be great if you had more experience.
[9:00]And I said, well, I'm just really enthusiastic and long story short.
[9:03]She said, well, why don't you come by and we'll just meet and talk.
[9:06]And she gave me a test without telling me it was a test and we talked.
[9:10]And then she said, do you know, I really like you so sure.
[9:13]So then you interned there.
[9:15]So I interned there.
[9:16]And then she introduced me to my former boss at the Metropolitan Museum of Art who was
[9:21]looking for a volunteer in their book conservation lab.
[9:25]And they took me.
[9:27]So within my first year of taking book-binding workshops,
[9:30]I had inserted myself into different internships.
[9:34]So I was able to learn on the job.
[9:36]I was very serious.
[9:37]And I was very driven.
[9:39]So for years, I did that.
[9:42]You have to talk to our first of your books out there, Alicia Fernandez Miranda,
[9:46]who took a year off and did four internships because it's rare to find other people
[9:50]who take internships on.
[9:52]And then they lead to all these great things.
[9:54]You know, I was working full-time while I did that.
[9:57]Wow.
[9:58]And what was your full-time job at the—
[10:00]time. What was your day job? I was working at a college textbook publisher. You have had such an
[10:06]interesting life. I'm like so into this whole story. He's telling me stories.
[10:12]Well, that's that's how I started writing ultimately. It was through just writing little things
[10:16]for these artists books that I was working on because I never considered myself to be a writer.
[10:20]I was much more interested in the book as an object at that time. So wow.
[10:26]So and then your book is called end papers. And I happen to be speaking of field trips and end
[10:30]papers. We had two kindergarten field trips recently at the at the bookstore opening, California.
[10:36]And they were so cute. They like came in in the pouring rain and sat down. And I was teaching
[10:39]them all about end papers and how it's so it's such an under celebrated thing. I'd like love
[10:45]opening up a book and seeing what the end papers are, especially children's books, which sometimes
[10:49]can be really clever. And an illustration into themselves. So we were talking all about end papers.
[10:53]And now your book is called end papers. But I only have the galley here, although I think I
[10:57]have the finished copy somewhere. So when you were doing end papers for end papers, what did you do?
[11:02]They're white. Oh, no. I'm so disappointed in you.
[11:09]It wasn't my choice. But I did I did do we did a handbound giveaway. So I did take one copy of
[11:16]the book. And I tore off the cover. I mean, gently. And I rebounded. I did a collage. And I
[11:23]rebounded it. And I actually made a pocket in the end paper. And I hit something in there. I
[11:29]note on the back of the print of a pulp cover. And somebody won that copy. Oh, that's a good idea.
[11:35]Yeah. Yeah. That's really fun. You should do more of this. I should. I also, I do work full
[11:42]time now to. Okay. Okay. I have a 15 year old. Yeah. And that one took me like two and a half
[11:51]full days to do just to give you a seven. So how long? Oh, wow. It didn't take. Yeah. I have two
[11:57]15 year olds. I have to say so I know how that goes. Or I don't know exactly. I mean, every kid is
[12:02]no different. But you have four. You have four kids, right? I do have four kids. Yeah, these two
[12:09]little ones also. That's a little anywhere. But um, and what is your full-time job now?
[12:14]So now I work at Cornell University Press as a production editor. And that's all I'll say. Yeah,
[12:21]the other might not be. Anyway, that's what I do. That's what you do. Okay. So you help with book
[12:27]production. Yeah. So I basically once a book is accepted for publication. It's been through
[12:35]the editorial process with the acquisitions editor. Then it would come to me or one of my colleagues.
[12:40]And we see it through copy editing and page proofs and production until it's a bound book. Yeah.
[12:47]We call that our managing editor here. That's what you do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.
[12:53]So then when did you end up writing this book? And how are you still writing? When are you doing
[12:57]everything then at night? Um, a five, 30 in the morning. Okay. Yeah. I'm part of the five
[13:02]am writers club on Twitter. Is that really a thing? It is really a thing. Check the hashtag.
[13:07]Yeah. I mean, they have like real virtual meet up sometimes. But I don't ever go because it's my
[13:12]only writing time. So I really just write and check in with the hashtag. And then sometimes on weekends
[13:19]and then occasional retreats. Like I'll go for like a weekend and write. So I started writing
[13:26]end papers and I guess it was a few years before or maybe a year before 2016. And then
[13:34]I just sort of wrote one very long sentence and didn't really know what to do with it. So I put it
[13:38]away for a long time. And then and then I always hate this part of the story. But then Trump was
[13:43]elected. And I felt like I needed to go back to it. And so I started working on it in earnest around
[13:49]2016. Yeah. Wow. And then what? And wait, first of all, how do you fall? I mean, this is going to
[13:57]sound so stupid. How do you become part of a hashtag on Twitter? Does that mean you just like
[14:03]you just follow the hashtag? And then you're part of it or do you have to apply somewhere? Anything
[14:07]you just follow it? Just follow it and you can use it. So I just, you know, I got up early to write
[14:12]and I started getting on Twitter and I saw this hashtag that was five am writers club. And I thought,
[14:17]oh, I'm just going to jump in there. As I do. Because I just really wanted community, you know,
[14:23]it's, it's not easy to get up every morning to write when you have a full day of work ahead of
[14:29]you and a kid and all that. But this community is so supportive. Just really, really nice people
[14:36]who are super committed and they're there every morning. It's amazing. So then you all wake up and
[14:42]tweet each other basically. Yeah. Yeah. Essentially wake up, make our coffee and a lot of gifts.
[14:50]A lot of gifts for you. So cool. I sound idiotic obviously, but I have never, I have not figured out
[14:57]Twitter. It's like not intuitive to me and I'm scared of it. And so I feel like Instagram,
[15:02]I know really well. And then Twitter, I just like pop on every so often. And I'm like, I don't know,
[15:06]I can't make sense in this world. And then I leave. So anyway, on the opposite, I'm just going to
[15:10]use to Instagram now. Okay. Oh, maybe we can teach each other each other. I'm sure it's not
[15:17]rocket science, but I have not invested the time to figure it out, which I should.
[15:22]Apparently lots of writers are on Twitter. And I'm like missing out. So anyway, that's so sweet. I
[15:27]love like the visual of all these authors waking up all over the world and texting each other
[15:34]with their coffees. It doesn't I feel like I've seen out of a movie or something. Right. It's
[15:39]that's really awesome. So what is it about writing for you? Why do you make the time? I mean, that's
[15:45]a big commitment. Why? Yeah, I think I've always had creative stuff that I've done. And it's always
[15:53]been around words. And I never really like I said, thought of myself as a writer. And then when
[16:00]when my son was born, I didn't have time to work in my binary anymore because it's a good 20
[16:05]minutes to set up and then clean up after you work. So that just wasn't happening. And I had
[16:10]collaborated on some other projects with friends. And I couldn't do that anymore because I couldn't
[16:16]commit to a schedule. So I had to do something. And writing was the thing that was always the thread
[16:21]that was running through. And I had never been interested even in sharing my work, like beyond
[16:27]my own community. I really just did it and have always done it for me just because I've needed it.
[16:31]And then writing just seemed like the thing I could do, you know, if I could grab 15 minutes while
[16:36]my son was napping, then that's what I did. And I started to feel like for the first time,
[16:41]like I was really using my voice. And then I was working for a journal where there were three
[16:49]male editors. And I was really doing a lot of the work and they were doing a lot of the
[16:55]exciting part, you know, like getting to go to conferences and, you know, talk to people about
[17:00]the journal. And, you know, I was really behind the scenes. But I was doing a lot of the work. And
[17:05]I thought, well, if I'm putting this much effort into getting other people's work out there,
[17:11]maybe I'm allowed to have my own voice. And maybe I'm allowed to do that for myself. And so it
[17:17]really sort of inspired me to try to start publishing. And the more I wrote, the more I just felt
[17:23]like I was again doing it for myself. But then thinking, if I need this, maybe somebody else does
[17:28]too. And I just, it's just something I do, like I can't not do it, I guess. And even if I never
[17:33]published a word, I think I would still do it. I went 10 years without publishing much. I published
[17:38]some short stories. But really, I just am not a happy person if I don't do it, I guess.
[17:46]Yeah. Have you seen speaking of really cool book related arts? Someone gave me, I could go grab
[17:51]it in the other end. But somebody recently gave me a copy of the memoir that I wrote, but they
[17:55]had done origami with all the pages. And so then when you open it, it says my name, have you ever
[17:59]seen anything like that? No, that's beautiful. I'm going to just run it. It's right here. Hold on,
[18:04]wait. Okay. I feel like if anyone is going to appreciate this, it's you. Okay. So this is the book,
[18:09]the actual book, and like the actual jacket, and then they made it into my name. This is actually
[18:16]my signature that I have. Is that the, the lights are like really weird here? I can see it.
[18:22]Can you see it? That's beautiful. Not bad. But then each page is folded. You see this?
[18:30]Yeah. So it's all with folds. That's incredible. Is that the coolest thing ever?
[18:34]I think they cut some, they cut some because this is indented a little bit, but just in the
[18:39]signature. Anyway, yeah, I've seen altered books before, I guess I would call that an altered book,
[18:44]but yeah, never like that. That's really, that's very cool. Yeah. So anyway, congratulations.
[18:50]Oh, no, this is like a year ago, isn't it? What cool, what are like some of the coolest
[18:56]book art things you learned or saw in class or that you've been a part of or like what's
[19:01]something cool that you've seen or done? I mean, one of them was learning about how people used
[19:06]to actually find letters under the end papers of books. That was what inspired that stayed with me
[19:10]for years and inspired the story. Another one, there's an artist named Kumi Korf who did these
[19:18]really cool 3D books. They weren't pop up, but she had designed this. I've recently finally,
[19:24]after all these years got rid of my mock up. So I can't really show you what it looked like, but
[19:28]essentially there were some of the pages would be regular pages and then the whole thing would
[19:33]turn like a page, but you would have these almost like a shadow box with 3D elements in it. And so
[19:38]she sort of invented this way to put a book like this together with regular pages and then
[19:44]3D pages. And I really loved that and I made a mock up of an artist book using that idea
[19:51]that I wanted to have like different parts of cathedrals because it was a little bit about like
[19:58]what do you, but how do you learn to believe in yourself?
[20:00]else and what do people believe in. And so I was, and I don't know, I had this idea that
[20:04]never came to fruition. And I had tried doing all these sculptures with wire and I had this mock-up
[20:08]sitting around for a very long time. And I finally just let it go. And someday maybe I would like
[20:13]to try it out again. But that was one of the cooler structures I've seen. And you don't,
[20:18]I haven't seen that since because I think just because she invented it. So it was really cool.
[20:23]Yeah. So neat. It's like a whole new world here. I love this.
[20:30]Um, so back to writing the book. Um, why the mystery element? I mean, obviously,
[20:37]if they find something, you know, you have to get to the bottom of it. But I know there's a lot
[20:41]about, you know, identity and what you should look like and what you should wear and who you are
[20:46]to the people in your life at all times. And, you know, all of that as well. Tell me about just weaving
[20:52]it all in together and all the different threads. Yeah. I love a good mystery. If I'm going to read,
[20:59]I love literary fiction. And I write literary fiction, but I, I love a good page turner. And
[21:05]the older I get the more I appreciate that, I think I said recently, like, especially in TV,
[21:10]because otherwise I fall asleep. Oh, my gosh. So, so I think I really just wanted to create something
[21:18]that would keep people interested, a story that would keep people turning the pages and would
[21:23]keep me interested in writing it. Um, because I, I don't outline to the end when I write. And so
[21:29]I feel like I'm almost reading as I'm writing. So I'm like writing to find out what happened. So
[21:34]I tend to gravitate toward adding elements of mystery. And I knew that I wanted there to be a
[21:43]historical element to the book as well. And so I, I didn't know what I wanted it to be. But when I
[21:50]first, when I first came up with the idea, it also just seemed like it had to be a mystery. If
[21:55]somebody was going to find this letter under the end papers of a book, like what was going to be
[21:59]the mystery and what was going to be the history there. So that sort of set me up for like mystery
[22:03]and history. Sorry. I didn't mean for that to rhyme. But, um, yeah, I feel like that sort of set
[22:10]me up to try to uncover for myself what was going on. And then, um, try to make an interesting story
[22:17]for, for the reader. So cool. To your point about falling asleep early. Yeah. I just read somewhere
[22:25]like somebody posted on maybe Twitter. I don't even know somewhere. Um, you know, why do you
[22:30]concerts? Like why do musician concerts always happen at night? Why not do like Taylor Swift at 2 p.m.
[22:36]Like how amazing would that be? You could be like seven. You know, how do you feel good?
[22:44]How would I answer? Yeah. I'm like, yeah, my whole day skews early. I'm like, why? Like going out
[22:51]at like 8, 8, 30 is like, you know, we're having an after-party student. It starts at 7, 30, the
[22:56]after-party. Like that is my kind of art. Anyway. Um, and are you still in Brooklyn or did I make that up?
[23:04]No, no. I'm in Ithaca. So I'm upstate now. I've been upstate since I actually left, um, on September
[23:10]1st, 2001, which was heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah. Then 9, 11 happened right after I left. So
[23:20]yeah. Um, amazing. Well, do you have any advice for aspiring authors or artists?
[23:28]I think, I mean, my biggest advice to people, somebody just asked my college student just asked me,
[23:33]how do I get started? And I feel like because I never really thought of myself as a writer and I
[23:38]never got an MFA. I had to at some point decide that if I was going to do this, that it was also
[23:44]okay for me to fail and that that was the only way that I would learn. And so when I started, I just
[23:51]made a decision that I didn't have to be good and that I was just going to find people I trusted
[23:57]to read my work and tell me what I was doing wrong or what I could do better. And I always,
[24:05]I just, I went, I approached it with a mind of a student and I think that really helped me never
[24:12]feel like I couldn't do it because I knew that, you know, once once I did it, I could do it better
[24:18]and better and better and better and that was my goal. And so I think for, I don't know, I don't
[24:24]know if that helps people out there feel like, but I know there's a big fear of failure when you
[24:27]first start like what if I'm not good enough, you know, and I, one of the things that, um, my father
[24:33]said, and we were never very close, but one of the things he told me when I went to college was
[24:38]that if you love something, if you're really passionate about something, then you can assume
[24:42]that the people who do it are probably passionate too. And that as long as you approach them
[24:47]respectfully and kindly that there will be people who want to talk to you and there will be
[24:53]people who want to help you. And so that's what I did. You know, the same way I did with book
[24:57]binding. I reached out, you know, respectfully and kindly and some people said, no, some people
[25:02]said yes, but, you know, writers are nice people and generous people and if you respect their time,
[25:10]you know, sometimes they'll help you out. So I am, I took classes. I just, yeah, I just learned and
[25:16]learned and learned and learned until I felt like I could finally do it. And yeah, so I never,
[25:22]I never, I never felt like I was failing even when I probably was. So I would, I would recommend
[25:27]that as an approach. I love it. I love it so much. Yeah. Do you have a book whose end papers,
[25:33]you think are amazing? Are the end papers of which you find amazing or whatever?
[25:37]I don't, but, you know, my former boss at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Mindel Dubansky, she just
[25:44]published the results of years worth of research. And it's not necessarily end papers, but it's
[25:49]decorative papers throughout history. And it is a gorgeous, gorgeous book. And I wish I would have
[25:56]to go get it. And I know you have stuff to do. But Mindel Dubansky and it's a book about
[26:02]decorative papers that I would highly recommend that people take a look at because it's beautiful.
[26:07]Amazing. Yeah. Okay. Well, we have our five AM author group to now infiltrate
[26:17]book finding papers and end papers and feeling very artistically inspired after this conversation.
[26:24]And thank you for the book as well as a throw-in. So congratulations on end papers. And thank you
[26:30]for the chat. Thank you so much to be. This was really fun. And I hope you've done feels better.
[26:35]Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Bye bye. Bye.
[26:41]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't
[26:45]Forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:50]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet
[26:54]lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for
[26:59]the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[27:04]now trim music.