Jane Roper, THE SOCIETY OF SHAME
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Jane Roper is the author of the Society of Shame, and by the way, I like loved this book
[1:08]so, so much.
[1:10]Jane is the author of two previous books, a memoir, Double Time, and a novel, Eden Lake.
[1:15]Her short fiction essays and humor have appeared in publications, including McSweetie's
[1:18]Internet Tendency, The Millions, The Rumpets, Salon, and Poets and Writers, and on NPR.
[1:23]Jane is a graduate of the Iowa Writers Workshop, and lives in the Boston area with her
[1:27]husband and two children.
[1:29]And by the way, Jane Roper's book, The Society of Shame, will be my August Book Club
[1:34]pick for Zippy's Book Club.
[1:36]If you are not a member, go to zippy'sbookclub.com.
[1:40]That's zippy'sbookclub.com, and you can learn all about it.
[1:44]You can even start your own chapter of the club if you are interested.
[1:48]Just go online and check it out in the meantime, Jane Roper, Society of Shame.
[1:52]Welcome, Jane.
[1:53]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss The Society
[1:57]of Shame.
[1:58]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:00]It's real to be here.
[2:01]So, Jane, I had seen your book picked for all these different profiles, and I don't know.
[2:07]I just saw it getting lots of press, and I just hadn't dipped into it myself, but I was
[2:11]so excited to talk to you about it, and literally from the first page, I was laughing so
[2:16]hard.
[2:17]My husband and I started reading it out at him, and we were crying, laughing, so smart.
[2:23]It's so funny.
[2:24]I'm like, just such a huge fan.
[2:25]I'm such a huge fan.
[2:26]I'm so glad you laughed, that was my goal, to make everyone laugh.
[2:32]You're just the way you think about everything, the way you describe everybody, and even
[2:35]like Aggie's friends with like the small head, just like the little details, just like
[2:41]totally got me, not to mention the premise of the whole book.
[2:45]So anyway, let me back up and have you tell listeners what the book is about, and then
[2:49]I'd love to know what inspired this book, and if it was, what happened in the book,
[2:54]or you know, some of it, tell me the whole thing.
[2:57]Okay, sure.
[2:58]So, the book is about Kathleen Held, who is a 47-year-old, perimenopausal wife and mom,
[3:05]married to a very up-and-coming politician.
[3:07]She comes home one night to find her garage on fire, her husband in his underwear, and
[3:12]his very disheveled mistress lying nearby.
[3:17]And the scene, a bystander snaps a photo, and in that photo, you can see that, just
[3:22]a bystander, the funniest cab driver character that you kept going.
[3:27]I mean, so funny.
[3:28]Anyway, sorry, just had this, and you should hear the audiobook, the audiobook reader makes
[3:33]him like, I was even laughing at my own character, because she made it so funny.
[3:38]But anyway, he snaps a photo, and in the photo, you can see that Kathleen has a big
[3:43]period stain on the back of her pants.
[3:45]The photo, of course, promptly goes viral, but the thing people are fixated on is not that
[3:50]the Senate candidate hadn't fair, but that she has this period stain.
[3:53]And she becomes this unwitting hero of this new movement called, yes, we bleed to destigmatize
[3:59]menstruation.
[4:00]And then craziness ensues as she figures out how to manage her newfound fame, so funny.
[4:06]It's so great, because it's not just about the effect of sort of this shocking betrayal
[4:12]on her and her family, and navigating being a mom while you have all these terrible things
[4:17]happen and being unwittingly thrust in the public eye.
[4:21]But then the compatriots of shame, if you will, raise an even bigger point of what happens
[4:29]to all the people who are getting canceled all the time, which is an interesting question
[4:32]to examine.
[4:33]And one that the public seems to have no sympathy for as a group, right?
[4:38]That it's okay to kind of, well, this person did that their canceled, let's ruin their
[4:43]lives.
[4:44]But then the book kind of asked like, well, what about them?
[4:48]And what happens next?
[4:50]I don't know.
[4:51]I found it absolutely fascinating.
[4:52]That's a mention all the way you poke fun at like some of the campaigns and the wider
[4:56]world, the Twitter sphere and like all the funny little tweets and hashtags you make, and
[5:02]it's so great.
[5:04]So tell me about this whole book, and this is your first novel.
[5:06]This is crazy.
[5:07]This is my first sort of major novel.
[5:09]I had a novel published like ages ago with a teeny press.
[5:12]So this has been a really different experience.
[5:14]And then I also have a memoir about parenting twins.
[5:17]We need to talk about twins.
[5:18]We have to talk about twins.
[5:20]Yes.
[5:21]Yeah.
[5:22]Yeah.
[5:23]You know, I've always been as sort of a creature of the internet fascinated with how quickly
[5:26]things snowball online and also how knee jerk people can be.
[5:30]And that certainly shows up with the, you know, online shaming.
[5:33]And I think there certainly are times when it's appropriate and times when it's appropriate
[5:39]that goes way out of proportion.
[5:41]So I wanted to kind of hold a mirror up to that and kind of make fun of, you know, both
[5:46]the canceling and the cancelies.
[5:48]But yeah.
[5:49]So Kathleen, once she's had this thing happen, she intercepts an invitation to something
[5:53]called the Society of Shame.
[5:54]And like you said, so she meets up with these other folks who have done things to varying
[5:59]degrees of awfulness to some stuff that's kind of innocent, but they're all trying to
[6:03]rehabilitate their images.
[6:05]And knowing some people who have been on the receiving end of this kind of thing, like
[6:09]how do they move on?
[6:10]Do they actually learn and grow from it?
[6:12]Or is there a backlash where they kind of dig in?
[6:15]Like there's one character in the book that really digs in.
[6:18]She calls the police on a black utility worker.
[6:22]But she refuses to kind of grow from the experience.
[6:25]And then there are others who do, you know, want to actually change and grow from it.
[6:31]So yeah, I, you know, I've always been interested in those kinds of stories.
[6:34]And there was an actual story that kind of sparked the idea for this where someone came
[6:38]home and found his wife and her lover, like this is actually really sad, but dead in
[6:44]the car, the garage where they've been fooling around.
[6:47]And that's kind of just got me thinking about being a bit trade by your spouse, but then
[6:51]having it, having it happen in this like humiliating way that becomes a subject of jokes.
[6:56]And so that kind of got me thinking, you know, in James Stewart's new book unscripted
[7:01]about Sumner Redstone, he talks about how there was this huge fire at the hotel he was
[7:06]staying in.
[7:07]And now he had to escape out the window.
[7:09]And that's why it's hand is like named, but there was a girl in the room with him who
[7:15]had to spend like under the radar because obviously this was not the same time as now.
[7:22]Things like that could stay a little bit quieter.
[7:25]Yeah.
[7:26]Yeah.
[7:27]But that's sort of the same thing.
[7:28]Like there's a fire and what's going on and who are you caught with at any given moment?
[7:32]You know, it's like what happens when like if you're, it's that whole adage of like,
[7:37]you shouldn't be doing anything.
[7:38]You don't want on the front page of the paper.
[7:39]Yeah.
[7:40]Wherever you freeze frame, there could be some disaster that capture it in time and never
[7:44]let people forget, you know, yeah, exactly and that happens over and over again in the
[7:49]book, not just with Kathleen, but other characters too, it's like they do some little
[7:53]thing and all of a sudden it blows up and I made it of course over the top.
[7:56]But while I was writing the book, sometimes I'd write something that I thought, oh,
[7:59]haha, this is crazy.
[8:00]This would never happen.
[8:01]And then something like it happens and I'm like, oh, geez, why am I bothering to try to
[8:05]write satire when everything's life is that's our, it's crazy.
[8:10]I don't know when this episode's coming out, but right now it's like, I don't know,
[8:13]the day six of the whole Sofia Coppola daughter pasta viral video.
[8:18]Yeah.
[8:19]I was literally like looking at that last night with Kyle, my husband, I'm like, this
[8:23]was a 49 second video, like she's, this was just less than a minute of her life.
[8:29]And then like a million people have watched her with this pasta making, you know, commentary
[8:34]on her life and the helicopter and what I've got.
[8:36]Yeah.
[8:37]Yeah.
[8:38]Yeah.
[8:39]And you know, that's her life.
[8:40]He's going to be associated with her from a one minute, like maybe laps of judgment and
[8:46]why are we also fascinated and then I felt that like, why am I watching this?
[8:50]You know, but like I have to see why is everybody else watching it?
[8:53]And of course, yeah, it's impossible to look away.
[8:56]It's like car crashes over and over again and we're just like, we can't help one of my favorite
[9:01]blurbs from the book from my friend Steve Alman.
[9:04]He was, he says my, our lust for rubber necking and it's so true.
[9:07]Yeah.
[9:08]Yeah.
[9:10]How did this writing journey come to be like, where did you, you talk about your writing
[9:15]communities and grab street and all the places you're involved with?
[9:19]And also you said in your acknowledgement, oh, I guess your husband had like, you had always
[9:24]thought you could do it and maybe you hadn't thought you could do it, which of course
[9:27]mirrors the character in the book.
[9:30]And I have to tell you also, I wrote this book, The Blank, which is coming out next year,
[9:35]which is similar in some ways too and that it's like a woman who's a writer and it's
[9:41]sort of like a funny take on publishing.
[9:43]Anyway, I have to send, I'm going to have to send it to you because, yeah, I don't want
[9:46]you to think I stole any of your ideas or anything like that.
[9:49]It's like, you know, some, some similarities.
[9:52]Oh, I'd love to read that.
[9:54]Well, yeah, your, your official, your publisher now, so yeah, I'm not publishing it.
[9:58]I actually wrote it myself.
[10:00]Right. I know. I mean, but you are published. And I now was in this publisher.
[10:03]So that's the inside track. Yeah, but I can't wait to read it. Yeah.
[10:08]I mean, it was a long journey to this book. So yeah, the thing you're referring to where my
[10:13]husband said, he kept telling me when I would write other things, it's good,
[10:18]but you're not using all your tools. You're not using all your tools. So I, you know,
[10:22]I got an MFA. It was right years ago, but I was writing very serious stuff. And the first book
[10:28]I wrote was this historical fiction. It was quite sincere. And then the second novel I wrote
[10:32]in late came out with a small press. That was also not very funny. I wrote a whole other novel
[10:38]that didn't get published and get it was on these very serious themes. And yeah, my husband and
[10:44]other folks were like, why don't you write funny stuff? Like in your nonfiction, you're funny
[10:48]in real life. You're kind of funny. My kids don't think I am, but I just didn't know how to bring
[10:53]that to fiction. And I think part of me was like, well, I have serious themes I want to explore.
[10:59]You know, I'm probably a serious writer. So it really, I mean, this was like over the course of 15
[11:04]years to get from thinking, this is what I should write. And this is who I should be as a writer
[11:09]to being like, Oh, screw it. I want to have fun. Like I'm tired of just not having fun. So I just kind
[11:15]of, I went way over the top at the beginning. And that kind of gave me permission to just go with
[11:21]it. But it was a whole other writing experience. And I took a class with Jenna Blum, who's a fabulous
[11:27]writer and teacher. And there are a whole bunch of awesome writers in this class, some of whom
[11:32]are already published, some of whom are going to be published soon. And it was such a great experience
[11:36]because I felt like they're urging me on like, yeah, you could do this, you could do this.
[11:40]So it was, yeah, it was a total fantastic experience. And it's still, I'm still having fun. So that's
[11:46]awesome. I love Jenna. So when did you start it? Like, and did it just flow out of you? Like,
[11:52]was this super fat? Like, tell me a little more visibility into the, sure, sure. So the,
[11:57]I will say that the previous novel I wrote that did not get published. I worked on for five years,
[12:02]granted my kids were younger than so it was a little harder. And one of my daughters was getting
[12:06]over a series illness. So, but still, I just like labored over the thing. And when that didn't
[12:12]find a home with a publisher, you know, I really grieved for a little while. But then and I was
[12:17]like, I'm never going to write a book again. But then this other idea came along. And I was like,
[12:21]all right, I'm going to do this fast. I'm never again going to spend five years on a book that I
[12:25]don't know was going to get published. And it did. It just kind of load. I don't know if it's ever
[12:31]going to happen again. I feel like this might be like one off of a book that really just went fast.
[12:35]So I started it. I guess I started it in early 2019 and finished it in early 2020. Like,
[12:42]just before the pandemic, that's a terrible time to try to go out and sell a book, but never the
[12:49]less. And then I had some back and forth with my agent to improve it. So that was the timeline.
[12:55]Oh my gosh. So cool. The cover is so cool with this one, which of course,
[12:59]once I get far enough, I realized why you did that. I don't even know. Anyway,
[13:06]I figured it out. I love the cover. I was so thrilled. It's nothing like what I expected. But when
[13:12]I saw it, first of all, my agent was like, oh, the designer actually read the whole book because
[13:19]this one you do come further on. But it serves as such a great metaphor, right? Of like pride and
[13:25]I love the sunglasses, but also like the idea of an ugly duckling turning into a swan.
[13:29]So, yeah, I adore and I keep buying blue and orange clothes and accessories and stuff.
[13:34]I can't stop. It's bad. Those are the colors of my wedding. I have to sell really?
[13:39]Yeah. It's a great color. And it's so great. Yeah. I love blue and orange.
[13:44]Especially the navy and the shade of orange. So we go back to your nonfiction book of the memoir
[13:49]and the twins and all of that. Tell me more about that. Sure. Yeah. So I wrote a memoir called
[13:54]Double Time, How I Survived and Mostly Thrive through the first three years of mothering twins.
[13:58]And if it's about my early journey is a twin mom and also dealing with depression,
[14:04]clinical depression at the time. But I had been blogging for a while about since ever since I was
[14:09]pregnant. And I developed a certain voice and a certain approach to writing about my kids without
[14:14]hopefully. But it was more about me than about my kids. You know, I think like most good parenting
[14:19]writing is. So yeah, I just decided I want to turn this into something more of a narrative. And
[14:25]that was a great experience too. That one also kind of flowed. I find nonfiction easier than
[14:30]fiction in a way. But it was, yeah, it was fun to capture this as you know, like the chaos of twins,
[14:37]but also the fantastic parts about it. So yeah, that was a weird publishing journey though,
[14:42]because literally six weeks after it was published, my daughter, as I said, was diagnosed with
[14:49]she's great now. She's 16 years old and thriving. But also like it was weird. It was kind of all
[14:54]of a sudden I was like, oh, I want nothing to do with this book. Like this book is about this
[14:58]happy precious time. And now I'm fighting for my child's life. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Did you end up
[15:04]trying to bring it down? Yeah, it's fine. Did you end up writing about the kimya time of life?
[15:11]I did. I blogged throughout the whole thing, which was really kind of a form of therapy for me
[15:17]and a source of support. So that was great. And what was really nice about that was later hearing
[15:22]from other parents going through the same thing that they, you know, it was helpful for them.
[15:27]And I wrote about it in that novel that didn't get published. But not one one.
[15:33]But talking about that, maybe it has a new life. Now that you have this published.
[15:36]But yeah, I don't know. I feel like maybe it's not, it's not like who I am as a writer now,
[15:41]but it was about, you know, the whole experience, you know, obviously when you have an ill
[15:46]child, it's like horrible, but we were sort of our family going in and to it with the best
[15:50]case scenario, right? We had resources, we have friends and family. But I kept imagining like how
[15:55]much harder it is for those who are not so fortunate. So I wrote a story more from the point of view
[16:01]of someone who's from a really troubled family troubled situation who has a child with cancer.
[16:06]But her sort of do good or neighbor kind of wants to, she's a little bit of like a drama vampire,
[16:12]emotional vampire who wants to come in and help and it gets a little creepy and invasive.
[16:16]But it's all, it's very much about class. It's about gentrification. I think it's a decent book,
[16:21]but it's, it's very different from what I'm doing now. So I don't know if it, it will have or even
[16:27]needs to have a life, but it was good to write. It's a tonic. I feel like my own experiences
[16:32]is so similar to yours. And now I'm like, like I also wrote about my twins. I wrote like it,
[16:38]I self published it because I had no intention of publishing it. Like I didn't try to,
[16:42]I wanted to make it a gift for my best friend who was having twins.
[16:44]Oh, my great muscles what I learned from having twins. And then I wrote a memoir and I also
[16:50]have written very, like I tried to write literary fiction. I wrote an entire book as a prose poem,
[16:54]you know, that's impressive. Thank you. Thank you. And I don't write something great.
[17:00]But I was like, oh, I just like every sentence will be a line and I'll do it like this and this
[17:04]is so great. And you know, and then I finally was just like, you know what, I'm just going to make
[17:08]it funny and like have fun. And that's the, but now that's the one coming out because it's much
[17:15]more who I am. And I'm like, I tried so hard to write the books. I thought I was supposed to write
[17:20]or that like would be important or respected or whatever. And like, I don't even know like,
[17:27]it wasn't until I just like let go of all of it. Totally that it worked for me. And yeah,
[17:32]so I don't know. But I just feel like I'm like, I mean, that's the same. It's like, yeah,
[17:37]it's the same. So you have to put all of yourself in like, I think that's when you find, you know,
[17:43]that's finding your voice, right? It's like letting go of what you think you should do and doing
[17:48]what what you love to do, what like gives you pleasure, what gives you joy, not that it's never hard.
[17:53]But I think that's the case in so many things, right? When we're trying to do what we think we should do,
[17:59]there's a part of us that we're denying to ourselves. So it makes sense that like,
[18:03]the book where you're finally like, I'm just going to have fun. That's where you're going to succeed.
[18:08]And that's awesome. This feels so like cinematic to me. It hasn't been optioned yet. Are you
[18:14]working on that? Not yet. But I would, oh my gosh, I would be, I would be so thrilled if that happens.
[18:19]So you know, if you know anyone, I'll put it a good word. I think it'd be a fun series like I
[18:25]think it would be a fun series. Yeah. We'll see. Just so timely and topical. Okay. I'll see if I can
[18:32]sprinkle any fairy dust on it. Yeah. Yeah. You have people working on it. But yeah, it's just
[18:39]so good. And I love even the whole like political, like what does it mean when your spouse wants to do
[18:47]something like you even had something at the beginning or not maybe not the beginning, but how cat
[18:52]or Kathleen, or whatever. That's a current her teeth when her husband is like, okay, well, now I
[18:56]want to run for office. And she's like, haven't I just been like waiting around for you? Like,
[19:00]now we have to take even less of you. Like, right. We have to share you with even more people.
[19:05]Yeah. Just to live out your dream. But how can she not support his dream? Right. And it's one of those
[19:10]like, when is it her turn, which of course the cracks of the book, but it's like, how do you
[19:16]support your spouse and help them follow their dreams when it diametrically is opposed to
[19:22]what you will gain from it, not that you're ever supposed to think that way. Right. Yeah. I think
[19:26]that's in that probably happens more than it's tough when you, especially if you have two people who
[19:33]are ambitious and have, you know, have passions. And Kathleen did have a passion, but she sort of,
[19:41]I mean, it's two things. You know, she sort of gave up quickly because she couldn't handle the
[19:45]rejection. You know, she was an aspiring writer, but she also, yeah, she had to increasingly
[19:50]sublimate her own thing to her husband who's like this charismatic, slightly smarmy politician
[19:57]guy. But yeah, and I think it's something.
[20:00]midlife too for midlife women you kind of have this come to Jesus we're like well you know
[20:05]am I doing what I want to be doing am I you know am I just being a you know support for other
[20:11]people or am I really doing what you know what I'm passionate about so yeah oh my gosh well as a 46
[20:19]year old woman this could not have rung more true for me the whole thing is just so funny
[20:25]and also you must be so thrilled or not thrilled I mean that's but like there's such a
[20:31]a spotlight now on menopause and like that it's now all these nonfiction books are being you
[20:37]know held up and it's the huge thing and the times recently and like finally people are like
[20:41]talking about it and all of that this is like the most timely read honestly well yeah certainly
[20:48]I'm we're almost the same I'm 48 and I'm like don my mind and the other thing is like that you know
[20:55]periods too and like there's just this awful thing you know this thing about nine Florida like
[21:01]not talking to girls about their periods before sixth grade and I it's just you know when the average
[21:07]age of onset is between nine and 14 or something so yeah the stuff around period I guess menstrual
[21:14]justice is sort of what the movement is called is is relevant to and I'm glad to see that you know
[21:20]it's it's much needed and much overdue but yeah I mean not that I should be sharing this but like
[21:26]I didn't know what was happening when I got like because I was pretty young and I literally thought
[21:29]like I was dying oh god yeah I mean it's the worst but yeah yeah it's like nobody and nobody taught
[21:39]me about it in school for like two more years you know oh gosh wow yeah it was late in my school
[21:44]and I was early in whatever so you know you just know I'm not gonna be talking about it openly more
[21:49]openly which I still find hard honestly like my kids are way more open about this stuff than I am
[21:55]like my daughter will like call down the stairs like mom can you bring me a pad and like you know
[22:00]my husband's right there like I never would have done anything like that as a kid my god you
[22:05]died maybe either and even I can't even think of any other books that even address something
[22:11]like this most of you know this is like one of those essays you write like what's the most
[22:15]embarrassing thing that's ever happened to you yeah yeah right but it has happened I know you
[22:20]write about this in the book how many people has happened to and that versus whole outpouring of
[22:25]people who have had you know spotting or whatever you want to call it or like you know the
[22:30]splotch you called it what point you know all of that yeah but just you know the other sort of
[22:34]indignities of the fact that this happens to us and like making it so funny and I don't know it's
[22:40]about time basically yeah right it shouldn't it shouldn't be a big deal but inevitably is of course
[22:46]you know and I think people don't know also that like when you're paramount a puzzle like when
[22:50]you're approaching that a pause your periods can be bonkers and that's sort of like they can be all
[22:55]on whack they can be heavy they can be light they can disappear so yeah just we don't talk about
[23:01]that kind of stuff enough so I'm talking about it now yeah and even how impossible it is to cut
[23:07]short get your highlights done yeah if you have somewhere to be you just cannot cut that process
[23:13]no no you cannot you can't you know it's foils out no you gotta sit through it
[23:20]and I loved your New York and Hampton's seat like the whole thing it was just so great it was so
[23:25]I really really loved it so are you working on another novel now or another memoir what do you have
[23:30]to I'm working on a novel in my head like I haven't put much on the page yet but it's baking it's
[23:37]about two pair of twin sisters who hate each other but have to sort of band together when their
[23:42]little coastal town on Cape Cod is destroyed by like a giant storm so it's kind of it's kind of
[23:48]of clarify but it's silly clarify not silly but I've never heard that term before you haven't
[23:54]oh clarify yeah it's a any books about climate change oh my gosh there's a lot out there
[24:01]though out of it I mean I it's yeah of course now you know I heard it here first but they're
[24:07]first now you're gonna start now it's all you're gonna see right you're just no I mean I know
[24:12]there are a lot of books like that and I've like done I just haven't heard it as a term I let
[24:17]term yeah like quit live and clarify and all these like and founders of books and yeah and all
[24:25]of that you know so what's the most creative sort of marketing thing that's been going on with your
[24:30]book oh that's that's a good question so anchor the publisher you know they made a cool little
[24:37]package and I love they they created to go out to influencers and they made a bookmark that says
[24:43]hashtag yes we bleed on one side and hashtag yes we read on the other side great like I've
[24:50]just we just keep coming up with yes we whatever you know yes we pour the book around yes we
[24:58]whatever so that was pretty cool I don't know I'm hoping there'd be more more fun stuff ahead
[25:03]so so exciting yeah it's been fun well Jane I'm such a fan and again I just I have not laughed
[25:11]until I cried this time in long long it was so great it's just so funny I couldn't put it down
[25:18]I'd not put it down I'm sorry thank you so much it's awesome talking with you I really
[25:24]appreciate it and then yes I'm so glad that you laughed a lot all right well thanks so much
[25:31]and we'll stay in touch yeah so all right thank you thank you bye bye
[25:37]thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books don't forget to
[25:42]follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books also sign up for
[25:48]my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on
[25:53]zoom every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan back texture sound for the sound editing
[25:58]and thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music