Jill Santopolo, STARS IN AN ITALIAN SKY
[0:02]Hi, I'm Zippy Owens, and you're listening to moms don't have time to read books.
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[1:03]Jill Santopolo is the author of Stars in an Italian Sky.
[1:07]Jill is the internationally bestselling author, also of everything after more than words
[1:12]and the light we lost, which was a Reese Witherspoon book club pick and has been
[1:17]optioned for film.
[1:18]Her books have been translated into more than 35 languages and have been named to the New
[1:22]York Times USA Today Wall Street Journal, Apple and indie-bound bestseller lists.
[1:27]She is also the author of the Alec Flint Mysteries, the sparkle spa series, and the
[1:33]follow your heart books.
[1:34]Jill holds a BA in English literature from Columbia University and MFA in writing for children
[1:39]from the Vermont College of Fine Arts and is certificate an intellectual property law from
[1:43]NYU.
[1:44]I guess I'll call her next time, I need an intellectual property layer.
[1:48]She is the publisher of Fila Mel, an imprint of Penguin Young Readers Group, where she
[1:53]edits many critically acclaimed award-winning and best-selling books, including, she persisted
[1:58]by Chelsea Clinton and Alexander Borger.
[2:01]Signing up by my embryonic, calling all minds by Temple Grandin, just ask, be different,
[2:06]be brave, be you by Justice Sonia Sogemayar and Raphael Lopez, and superheroes are everywhere
[2:12]by Vice President Kamala Harris and Mikhail Rope.
[2:16]Jill has worked as a thesis advisor at the New School in their MFA program in writing for
[2:21]children and young adults and was on the faculty of the Columbia Publishing course.
[2:25]She was also an adjunct professor at McDaniel College, where she helped develop the curriculum
[2:30]for their certificate program in writing for children.
[2:32]Jill has traveled all over the U.S. and to Canada and Europe to speak about writing and
[2:35]storytelling.
[2:36]She lives in Washington, D.C., and New York, with her husband and daughter.
[2:40]And this was from her launch event that we did together, and I was honored that she asked
[2:45]me to moderate the event, so we were in front of a live audience.
[2:48]Enjoy.
[2:49]Hi, Jill.
[2:50]How are you?
[2:51]Good.
[2:52]Good to meet you.
[2:53]Good to meet you.
[2:54]I have to say, I was just sitting there looking at the book and the beautiful wine, and I was
[2:59]like, oh my gosh, of course, it's a city winery because of the book.
[3:02]I was just like, oh, it must be some nice place in New York.
[3:06]Well, all part of the master plan.
[3:07]Yes, making love, making wine, that's what the book's about, right?
[3:10]No, well, okay.
[3:13]Has anyone not read the book yet?
[3:15]A couple of you.
[3:17]Do you mind describing the book?
[3:18]Where did this idea come from for you?
[3:20]Where did it come from?
[3:22]So it came from a trip to Italy, so Andrew, there's Andrew, my husband.
[3:28]So he and I went on our honeymoon in the summer of 2019, and we went to visit a lot of
[3:34]his family in Italy, and we also went to visit my Italian publisher in Milan.
[3:40]So we visited Christina first, my Italian publisher, and she was talking to us and talking
[3:45]to me, and she was like, I think you should write a book said in Italy.
[3:49]You love Italy, your family has roots in Italy, Andrew's family is in Italy, but you should
[3:54]write a book said in Italy, and it should be about a family.
[3:57]And I was like, okay, Christina, sure.
[4:00]I didn't think I was going to actually do it.
[4:01]But then we went to visit a bunch of Andrew's cousins, and one of them is a man who would
[4:09]have been the count of Suzzo and the Marquis of Rocket de Baldi.
[4:15]And we were talking, and one of his, at least cousins, younger sister, said to us, yeah,
[4:21]but the institutional referendum of 1946, they sort of abolished the monarchy in the
[4:27]nobility.
[4:28]And I was like, that's actually really interesting.
[4:32]Imagine what it must have been like to be this guy, and to think, this is the future
[4:37]I was going to have, and then all of a sudden, by popular vote, your future has changed.
[4:42]It's totally different.
[4:44]And in addition to that, it was the first vote in Italy where women had the right
[4:48]to vote, which I thought was really interesting.
[4:52]It was after World War II, which was also interesting.
[4:55]Andrew and I have always joked because my family and Italy were shoemakers that if he
[5:00]and I had met in Italy, it would have been a total scandal because here's this person
[5:06]who's in the noble class, and then the daughter of a shoemaker, right?
[5:11]So all of that was kind of coming together with what Christina said.
[5:14]And I was like, I actually think, I'm going to write a book, said in Italy about a family,
[5:20]and then sort of all the details kind of filtered in after that.
[5:23]So exciting.
[5:24]This is, this did not happen the whole, nothing with the families, the reunite, anything.
[5:29]No, no, that would have been exciting, but no.
[5:32]I think it was really interesting how you included, as some of your main characters, elderly
[5:38]people, because I feel like there are not a lot of books that really star older people,
[5:43]especially older people, well, I don't want to give things away, but with all of their
[5:47]feelings still intact, and love, and emotion, and longing, and all of that, and I feel
[5:53]like it kind of fiction usually stops at a certain age.
[5:56]So tell me what it was like writing older characters, and research, and all of that.
[6:01]Yeah, so I love the idea that love is always there no matter how old you are, you know?
[6:08]And that being in love doesn't stop because you hit a certain age.
[6:13]And I also really love the idea of a grandparent, grandchild relationship, because I have
[6:20]a grandmother who I'm really close to, she just turned 91, and she helped me a lot
[6:24]with some of the details where I was like, how did you tie back your hair in 1946?
[6:30]She's like, I think we used to rubber band, but I'm going to go ask my friends when
[6:34]we play cards.
[6:35]I was like, okay.
[6:37]So I love the idea of writing about sort of how a grandparent's life then affects their
[6:47]grandchildren's generation and how in a family sort of the history of the family becomes
[6:52]the presence of the family and how that changes and shifts.
[6:55]So I just thought it would be really interesting to kind of explore multi-generational
[7:04]sort of dual love stories and how love in your, you know, 30s is and isn't the same
[7:14]as love in your 90s.
[7:16]So that was that sort of fit.
[7:18]Interesting.
[7:19]My husband and I recently went to Rome and he was learning about his Italian family.
[7:23]And then I was thinking and like you are, families were very different and different backgrounds
[7:27]and everything.
[7:28]And it's almost like with every relationship with whoever we're with, when we like
[7:32]get in the car together to go, we're bringing all these people from seeing a bit and there
[7:36]are some, it's so unlikely that any of us would ever meet and yeah, people fall in love
[7:41]every day and this is how it goes.
[7:43]I know the sounds ridiculous.
[7:44]But anyway, no, it's incredible and it's true because I mean everyone is sort of the
[7:49]sum of all of their experiences and all of their families history becomes the experiences
[7:54]that they've had because that's what their family have lived and it's like we're, we
[7:58]are all kind of the sum of every relationship we've ever been in.
[8:02]Yes.
[8:03]It is amazing to think what would happen with like Prince William and Kate of all of us
[8:08]and tomorrow they were like, it's over, it's done, I mean I know I see what, we're a
[8:14]terry month, anyway, moving on.
[8:18]When you were thinking about the backgrounds for the different characters and you chose
[8:23]the Taylor's Shop and the sewing of the buttons and making beautiful dresses and fashion
[8:27]and all that and how that carried through, the whole thing through Julianne's whole life
[8:31]and how she was still, you know, so well-dressed at the end, tell me about that piece
[8:35]and did you have a lot of fun researching that?
[8:37]I definitely had a lot of fun researching that.
[8:39]I feel like the most fun part about writing historical fiction is going down the sort of wormholes
[8:48]of research and sort of going through all of these photographs of like what were people
[8:54]wearing in this part of the world at this part, you know, time period and what was considered
[9:02]sort of really fashionable, what was considered kind of outdated but people still wore
[9:06]it and what would you wear to this kind of venture that kind of event that would be appropriate
[9:11]and I got to look at old Italian fashion magazines which was very cool, I think it was called
[9:18]Gracia I think but yeah that was really fun to research and I always have felt like fashion
[9:28]is a real statement and it's the first thing that a lot of people see when they meet
[9:32]you like what you're wearing and what that says about who you are the way you chose
[9:38]to dress does what I always think uniform schools are really interesting because it kind
[9:44]of takes that first impression away and you know the way you can use clothes to sort
[9:51]of telegraph different things that you want people to know or to fit in in a different
[9:54]place in a different way and I love the idea too that you...
[10:00]could look at a style and, you know, maybe it's a really fashionable, expensive dress.
[10:09]And if you're talented enough, you could recreate that dress that looks similar,
[10:15]but it's not the same thing. So how do you feel when you're wearing something that you've
[10:20]tried to create to make it seem like you're different than who you actually are?
[10:25]So I just thought that there was a lot sort of psychologically that you could do with fashion,
[10:32]and also it's just beautiful and fun, and there's a lot of jobs in it. So like the generations
[10:38]later could still be affected by fashion in a different way than actually, you know, working in a
[10:43]shop and creating it. I feel like you really showed this when Vincenzo first, maybe I'm not
[10:49]pronouncing it, right? Vincenzo? Yeah, how do you get? Vincenzo? Yeah, first painted by
[10:56]Juliana, and she wore his mom's clothing, which she snuck because she had been
[11:01]she had have sconded due to the war, and she puts on this dress and you said something like
[11:05]he saw her in a whole new way. Like all of a sudden she could have been the society girl that he had
[11:10]been intended to marry as opposed to the daughter of a tailor, and what just that one outfit change
[11:15]they do to the rest of their lives. Yeah, that it it sort of made him realize, or she could walk
[11:22]into a room and look the way a person I'm with is supposed to look. Yeah, but then there's a question
[11:28]of like what is, you know, he's I think he says to her if I remember what I wrote something like
[11:34]something like, you know, you were born to be a countess or whatever, and and then there's a
[11:39]question of well, what does that mean? Right, and like what is he actually looking for? Yeah,
[11:43]or and then it's all about family expectation and
[11:48]obligation versus feeling. I mean, that's another really interesting tension that you have there,
[11:52]what you should do, what you're supposed to do to honor your family, and then what do you
[11:56]really want to do and how do you marry those two things? Yeah, and how do you how do you find
[12:02]a way to not alienate your family? Yeah, and also not alienate yourself, you know, make make yourself
[12:10]happy. I guess the question is what are the side effects of unfulfilled love over the course
[12:15]of a life? Where does that longing go? Yeah, I mean, and I guess in my book it doesn't go away,
[12:22]even if you live a happy life, a fulfilling life, like there's still that unanswered question of
[12:28]of what if, yeah, and there's still, you know, a piece of this person in your heart.
[12:34]Well, emotional. Tell me about your writing process for this book. So you, and I'm also curious
[12:42]because with the light we lost, which is how I first met you, I read the light we lost, and I was
[12:48]crying my eyes out, and I had just started a podcast that I do now called momstone, I have time to
[12:52]read books, and I had just been like reaching out to people for the first time being like,
[12:56]I have this podcast, what do you think? Anyway, and I had not DM'd anybody on Instagram, I didn't
[13:01]know yet, but I was sitting there in my bed sobbing, sobbing, and I don't usually cry that much
[13:06]with books, but it hit me so hard. I was like, I'm just going to reach out to this author who I love.
[13:12]I'm just going to DM her, and I wrote her this note, like, I'm sitting here crying, and she wrote
[13:16]me back, and I was like, oh my god! She's like, thank you so much, it'd be like, changed my life,
[13:21]it's like I can't believe it. But anyway, it became Reese's book club pick, it was all the rage,
[13:26]you've had another wonderful book come out after that, and now it starts in an Italian sky.
[13:31]Do you feel pressure, like, living up to such a big hit? I mean, it's like, they only, she only
[13:38]picks 12 a year, you know what I mean? Yeah. I sort of have come to terms with the fact that
[13:44]I probably won't write another book that is as embraced as the light we lost was right off the bat,
[13:51]and that in itself was kind of freeing to say like, I did that thing, and that was awesome,
[13:58]and like so many doors got open for me, and I'm so grateful for all of the love and all of the support,
[14:03]and all of the people who DMed me, you know, saying how much they enjoyed the book or, you know,
[14:08]with pictures of them with the tears coming down their eyes. But I also know that that book was
[14:13]that book, and that was that book's journey, and that now I can't expect my other books to be that
[14:21]book, and I can just write them the very best I can and say the things that I want to say,
[14:26]and hope that they touch the people who need them, and that people who find them,
[14:32]find them at a time in their lives when they, you know, feel comforted or seen, or just
[14:39]have a nice day on the beach reading a book, you know, and hope that they do go out there in the
[14:44]world, you know, for someone. That's really a project I take with my kids. They cannot be the same.
[14:52]Yes, this one's going in this direction, and the other one's going over there. So we see what
[14:56]happens. I mean, I have a real human kid, but these are my kids too, you know, and like, you know,
[15:01]I truly do feel that way. They're each written, and they're each going to have their own path,
[15:06]and all I can do is my very best, and then it's up to the universe and readers to sort of
[15:15]see what happens with it. And I guess that's with any sort of art, right? All you can do is put it
[15:18]out there, and you can't control the outcome anyway. I mean, it's wonderful. Thank you. It's great,
[15:26]and it will definitely hit a chord, and it was, you know, the ending here brings tears as well.
[15:30]I feel like I've just cried my eyes out on you. You have a dual timeline in this book. You have
[15:36]the whole New York scene, and a couple getting engaged in their family's intersects and all of that,
[15:43]and you have that in the present, and then you keep going back and forth. When you do that,
[15:48]do you write all the back, how do you write the two timelines, and then how do you weave them
[15:53]together? So for this book, I wrote, I wrote back and forth, because I knew that I wanted things
[15:59]from the past to echo in the present, and from the present to sort of plant things that then you
[16:04]find in the past. And I knew that to do that, I needed to sort of write in the order that I wanted
[16:10]people to read. But then when I revised it, I pulled the two stories completely apart, and I revised
[16:16]each story on its own to make sure that everything felt really fully realized, and that I wasn't
[16:22]skipping over parts because I was skipping timelines, and that there was really an arc, and it was
[16:27]really, you know, the characters had their own sort of trajectory and journey and the story itself
[16:32]did, and you know, there was a plot and all of that. And once I had revised both sections,
[16:38]I then wove them back together, and then had to like move some things around to make it all
[16:43]fit again. Wow. Was this like on the floor? Are we literally like, you know, I probably
[16:49]it probably would have been easier if I had done it on the floor, to be honest. But it was it was like
[16:54]in different word documents that then were coming apart and coming back together, which
[17:02]yeah, probably would have been easier if I printed it out. Next time, next time you live
[17:08]your learn. Well, this speaks to how great an editor you are because in addition to being an author,
[17:13]you're also an editor. You have a big full-time job as well as writing. How do you marry those two
[17:20]things? How do you balance those? And when do you write versus work? And how do you even figure out
[17:26]when to do what and be a mom and a wife and a daughter and a sister and all of that?
[17:31]Let's have all of the advice. Give me some advice. As I'm saying, I feel like I should be asking you
[17:35]this question. This is just a specific question. You know, so this book, I started writing this book
[17:43]when I was pregnant with my daughter, and it was the middle of COVID, and or the beginning of COVID,
[17:48]I guess. And we were all working from home and trying to figure out like what life was going to
[17:53]look like. And you know, in the past, I had sort of given myself page targets to say, all right,
[18:01]I need to write this many pages this week and this many pages this week. And whatever time I can
[18:06]find, if it's 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there, like to write them, that's what I have to do
[18:11]because I have to get to this page number. And I think during the pandemic, that was a lot harder
[18:17]because sometimes I needed to really focus on this book to just block out the world
[18:24]because it was much more fun to be in post-world or to Italy than it was to be here in the present.
[18:31]And then there were sometimes where I just like so much was going on that I couldn't,
[18:36]I couldn't sit down and like get into the world in the way that I needed to.
[18:40]So I just kind of wrote when I felt like I needed to write. And then once my daughter was born,
[18:47]I was like, all right, now I'm going to actually have to figure out like how I block out time to do
[18:51]this. So I worked, I worked with my boss at the time to cut my hours so that I could have Fridays
[19:01]to write. And we had an amazing babysitter who came on Fridays and I would just spend like that day
[19:08]as an author more or less. And that was kind of how I finished the book in those like chunks of
[19:15]Fridays. And now I think I might be re-jiggering that process and me of starting something new
[19:21]because I'm always writing something. But like I think I might have to try and reframe that process
[19:26]again now that my daughter's a little bit older and now that my job has changed and all of that
[19:31]and we're in a different time in the world. But I was saying to someone actually earlier tonight
[19:36]like writing is what makes me able to do the rest of my life. Like writing is what keeps me
[19:43]sort of grounded and sane. And I need to find the time to do it as like my own mental
[19:47]health thing. Like I'd write even if nobody was publishing what I was writing because that's just sort
[19:52]of how I process life. And I think I just need to always figure out...
[20:00]exactly whether like what that means. You know, whether it means Friday is whether it means 20 minutes,
[20:05]whenever I can, whether it means giving myself a page count, but just sort of really asking myself
[20:11]continuously, like, how are you going to fit this into your life because you know you need to do it?
[20:16]Only I felt like that about exercise. Same, same, same.
[20:22]Front was just from when you were a little girl. Like when did you discover that writing was the
[20:25]thing you had to do? I think, I mean, I started writing stories. I was a first grade was a very
[20:31]prolific year for me. And I found kids in my class who were better artists than I am and I would
[20:38]give them the pages and I would say, can you please draw the pictures for this? So I don't know if
[20:42]I was, that meant I was a writer or an editor, one or the other, but you know, I think, I think once
[20:49]though I wrote short stories through high school and I wrote a bit less in college, but I was
[20:58]still writing. And then after college, it was when, you know, I got a job as an editorial assistant.
[21:04]And I was like, I think, I think I have a story to tell too. And I just sort of started
[21:11]started writing then. And when you write for your mental health, is it fiction? Or do you
[21:16]I mean, it's this. It's always like in the form of a novel. Yes, it's amazing. I think it's easier
[21:23]for me to sort of look at, look at feelings and look at things as if they're not mine.
[21:33]You know, so like the light we lost, I started writing after a horrible breakup when
[21:38]I wanted, I basically like wanted a friend to go through it with. And I'm like made Lucy.
[21:42]She was like my imaginary friend so that we could be like buddies and go through this trauma
[21:47]together. Okay. Right. I'll psychoanalyze me their day, I guess. No, I think that's great. I mean,
[21:57]there's, I mean, there are far worse outlets. Let's just leave it. I'm just saying that.
[22:01]But I think that's wonderful. I mean, we all need to escape whether we're creating it or
[22:05]we're watching TV or reading books or whatever it is. Sports, I feel like everybody needs
[22:11]that time off. And this is like your thing is reading also. I mean, I know you read for work
[22:16]all the time. But do you ever just want to like not read for anything on purpose and just read
[22:21]something fun? Do you make time for that? As you know, I get a lot of manuscripts to blurb. So I
[22:28]feel a little bit guilty when I'm reading things that are not manuscripts that people have asked
[22:33]me to read. But a lot of the manuscripts people asked me to read are pretty awesome. So that's,
[22:38]so I do try and make time for that. And totally get absorbed in, in other people's worlds.
[22:43]And once a while, I will sort of hear about a book that everybody's been talking about that.
[22:49]I'm just like, I have to read this. It sounds so good. And, and all these people whose opinion
[22:54]I trust in books like have, have been raving about it. I have to like put everything aside and read
[22:59]this book, which I just did with tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. And you were talking about
[23:04]amazing. I have not finished that book. Oh my gosh, it's so good. Apparently there's a chapter that I
[23:09]have to get to. That's like life changing. Yeah, if you got there is. I won't spoil it. Okay, you said
[23:17]you're always writing something. So what is coming up for you after this? So it's, it's new. And
[23:24]it's right now. It's about three sisters. And their mother has passed away like five years before.
[23:33]And as far as they knew, she had no family left that her parents had died. They knew she had a
[23:39]sister. They thought her sister had died. And then they get a phone call from a lawyer in Italy.
[23:46]We're going back to Italy. I couldn't leave. Who says even herded a house from your aunt. And
[23:53]they're like, no, no, we don't, we don't have an aunt. And they're like, no, no, no, you actually do
[23:56]have an aunt and she left you this house. And then they decide they're going to go to this house
[24:01]that's now their house and try and figure out like the secrets that their mother sort of
[24:07]has buried with her. Wow, that's a good phone call together. Yeah. So that's that's where you are right
[24:12]now. What is your favorite food? What is your favorite dish in Italy from all your travels and
[24:18]everything? Favorite food, favorite wine. I think milky with pesto could either that a lot. And as far as
[24:26]wine in Barrello, which is the wine that they're they're making is pretty good. I think we
[24:33]when we went to visit Andrew's family, we went to Barrello and we saw like all of the
[24:39]the vineyards that are on these hills and it was so stunning. And then we had this massively
[24:45]massively long lunch at Astoria de Gemma, which is also delicious if you ever go to that area.
[24:52]And then after that, Andrew's cousin was like, now let's go for wine. And you know, I looked at
[24:57]Jennifer like, are we supposed to actually put more food in our like anything more in our bodies
[25:01]right now. But we went and we tried to get and it was really good. That's amazing. I love that they
[25:06]have a tradition in their family down through the generations that when anybody gets engaged, they
[25:12]make a bottle of wine together. That was so awesome. Is that true? Did that happen? No, I made that up.
[25:17]Oh, that was a nice touch. When you sit down to start a project, like when you're starting
[25:26]this book or this, do you do a whole outline first? Do you just dive right in? Do you know all your
[25:31]characters? I write a sort of blah, blah, blah synopsis where I sort of say like, well this
[25:38]happens and then this happens and then sort of in the end this happens and it's like maybe two
[25:44]pages long of just like me telling the story to myself. But it doesn't have all of the connective
[25:50]tissue and it doesn't have all the details. So then when I actually start writing, I like I know
[25:55]where I'm starting from. I know like some of the points I want to hit and I know where I'm headed
[26:00]but I don't fully know how I'm going to get there. So then when I start writing, I build out the
[26:06]characters a lot and then for me the characters kind of guide the plot because then once I know
[26:12]who they are and their motivations, I can figure out how they would act in a situation and then
[26:18]that sort of shapes have the book on roles. So if Lucy was your buddy when you went through a breakup
[26:24]and you created her to sort of meet that emotional need, why do you think you created Juliana?
[26:29]That's a good question actually. When I think there was something in writing this in the middle of
[26:43]the pandemic where I was thinking about how like these shifts happen on a global scale and
[26:49]World War II was one of them and I think this global pandemic was another where people's
[26:56]perspectives change and society kind of changes and I wanted to sort of be in the moment with someone
[27:07]else from the past who was going through this sort of change in the world and a shift in perspective
[27:15]and be reassured that things kind of come out okay? You know that like disaster can happen and the
[27:21]world can feel like it's exploding but in the end things can kind of be okay. I love that, that's nice.
[27:30]Do you believe that when we pass away we meet up again soon? I don't know what I believe.
[27:38]I mean I hope so. I hope there's something. It would be nice. It would be nice.
[27:45]Someone once said to me that if you think about a baby in utero and like that's all they knew is
[27:52]this world inside their mother and then they're born into this world and if you told them you know
[28:01]a week beforehand that like there was this amazing thing after they got born they wouldn't necessarily
[28:10]believe you. I mean also they're babies so whatever but and like the person who's talking about
[28:16]this was said like what if that's what happens after we die? Like what if we're here and we can't
[28:21]even imagine that there's another place but then we die and there is and like it's the equivalent
[28:27]of that shift. That was not that was really interesting. It's really interesting. I think there's
[28:32]not as much traffic. I think it could be a different part of the world than midtown or something.
[28:41]Well that's lovely. All right well thank you thank you Zibi for doing this and thank you everyone
[28:47]for coming and if any of you would like your book autographs I'm going to be right over there
[28:58]at that table. Hopefully with a marker that somebody else brought because I just realized I forgot one
[29:04]but I will be there signing books if anyone wants your book signed and feel free to continue
[29:09]eating, drinking, buying wine whatever you'd like to do. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this
[29:18]episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[29:23]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com and sign
[29:28]up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to
[29:33]Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:38]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.